Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[PublikDomain]

This "rework" misses everything that Ash needed addressed:

• Bladestorm cutscenes and removal of player control
• Bladestorm making enemies invincible
• Only having one major stat (Strength) - still no duration scaling

How about, instead of nerfing Bladestorm so it's so cost-prohibitive as to be useless, you actually address those changes?

• Shuriken scales by Duration like Nova's Null Stars and "Marks" hit enemies.
• Smokescreen "Marks" the enemies that are stunned.
  • Smoke Shadow scales with Duration but lasts a minimum of 2/4/6/8 seconds.
• Teleport is fine as is, but freeing it up to teleport to anywhere you look would be nice, a-la Nova's portal, Valkyr's Ripline, etc.
  • Augment is unchanged.
• Bladestorm summons Shadow Clones to attack targets near the player's reticle (Hydroid's Tentacle Swarm-style aiming).
  • Fixed number of clones are spawned.
  • Shadow Clones jump on enemies and attack for a short time, scaled by Duration.
  • They deal the total damage of the ability over this duration, similarly to pre-rework Saryn.
  • "Marked" enemies are attacked by multiple clones at once, increasing the damage but lowering the total number of targets that are attacked.
    • If 3 enemies are Marked, 9 Shadow Clones attack those enemies (3 each) and the other 9 find their own targets.
  • Attacked enemies don't become invincible.
  • Ash does not participate in this ability, and is free to run around.
  • Rising Storm allows clones to build up Ash's combo counter for him as a rapid combo-booster.

The result?

• Ash has 2 synergy paths instead of 1.
• Ash can be built as high Strength, low Duration, and some efficiency (as he has traditionally been modded) and will play mostly the same.
  • Shuriken degrades to a single, powerful attack, but marks a target for tons of damage.
  • Smokescreen is still unusable (1s duration)
  • Bladestorm is a room-clearing ability and deals tons of damage over a very short time.
  • However, Ash doesn't get in the way of his team anymore and doesn't get stuck in long animations.
    • Almost like it's a rework, not a nerf.
• Alternatively, Ash can be built for Duration now as a support frame using Smoke Shadow and/or Seeking Shuriken.
  • Allows Ash to behave as the armor stripper, since Shuriken will throw many projectiles and strip many targets at a time.
  • Allows him to cloak his entire team for fair amounts of time.
  • Allows him to use Bladestorm as a CC.
  • Good for very high level play, where CC, armor stripping, and support is more important.
• Ash can also be built around Fatal Teleport as an all-rounder build.
  • High efficiency for many continuous attacks.
  • Some duration for Smokescreen allows for safe kill combos (2 → 3 for safe kill).
  • Some strength for Bladestorm allows him to still clear small targets.
  • May include Rising Storm or Seeking Shuriken to taste.

What's most disappointing about this rework is that it feels like you just gave up on him. Instead of coming to the community for their ideas (you may have noticed that there are a lot of them), it feels like you decided to just nerf Bladestorm's into the dust to hide it's problems. Very disappointed, this "rework" you've given us won't make me an Ash player.

Edited November 26, 2016 by PublikDomain

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Xastien10 said:

First:

SHURIKENS SUCK! Why would I use 2 500 slash damage stars for 25 energy instead of marking 2 targets for 30 energy?

It needs a combo counter like Atlas but with a twist: combo counter increases efficiency but not damage, instead it increases number of Shurikens to 2/4/8 (or maybe 6?)

Shuriken prioritizes marked targets and hits them with infinite punch through before any other enemy, if a marked target is hit, it gains an extra mark, with limit of 1. (If it is 1, it becomes 2 but can't become 3 after that and no longer prioritizes)

This would:

1. Make shurikens more useful

2. Make shuriken augment more useful (more shurikens = more enemies you can strip armor of)

3. Allow you to choose who to shuriken

4. Allows you to mark an extra time with less energy if combo is achieved

DE, please make Shuriken more useful. With new Bladestorm, there is 0 reason to use it other can breaking Sensor Bars..

This sounds like a nice idea, Keep how great his bladestrom is now and make his first power more better.

I whuold really just like Ash's Augments part of his powers, rather then Augments.

 

So I love this idea, Vote up!

[Circle_of_Psi]

39 minutes ago, megastorm said:

I would be fine if they reworked the armor debuff mod and made it innate. Or just give us 2 more mod slots to work with. The later is more reasonable.

 

Edited: If anything I think the syndicate mod for teleport is a little redundant with bladestorm. But for some reason I don't want them to take that away.

Relax, they won't remove that mod, alot of people use it.

Only thing they chuold do is combine it with Telport itself or even bladestrom. (So you go into bladestrom mode and just TP to your mobs)

[Shy0]

the way ash used to work:

spam 4, use fixed amount of energy, invulnerability while ulting, enemies usually dead at the end.

the way ash works now:

press 2, press 4, wave reticle around frantically, use up all energy, teammates kill enemies faster with big guns/melee finishers, bladestorm doesn't trigger, get energy back (useless at this point), ancient scorpion-wires ash, high-level bombards with stupid homing rockets hit ash with aoe, ash usually dead at the end.

this rework fixes nothing. it just makes ash another derp frame. i have repeatedly said this: i play warframe so i can have op abilities to kill mobs with. if i'm going to be an anonymous grunt with useless abilities instead of an awesome space ninja, i might as well play any other generic shooter.

and while we're talking about mesa, please consider making peacemaker automatically target enemies that are right next to you e.g. within 5 metres. takes some of the pain away.

[Ainrev]

Hi people reading, I'd like to start out by saying that I have been gaming for a while.  Then I started getting sick and having my body do things I don't want it to and it has continued to get worse.  I'm saying I wasn't always sick, so at one point, I was gud.  This game has been very accessible despite most of the below, but I make this post as it takes one step closer to not being so.  To DE: I have given you a lot of time and effort, I have said numerous mean things to changes and made kneejerk reactions as well.  But I have never once told someone to not try Warframe, asked others to stop, or quit playing strictly out of hate.  While it would be easy to blame my failing health, those were choices I made.  The good and the bad.  I enjoy being able to play Warframe, and while not always being cognisant(?) or physically able to keep up with endgame (or dailies... could make that more accessible), there is always something to do.  Mindless grind(carnage) has never been so fullfilling.  I only hope you believe what I say and read with a open heart.
(Ladies I love you!  Steve, Gandalf called you a fool of that thing on your head and said 'Wot u gon do 'bout it?')

This is a bit of a kneejerk reaction (I learn't it from DE) but I believe it is fair enough to put out there... with some editing from my actual kneejerk reaction.  I'm going to try and make it enjoyable/possible to read.  Enjoy and/or get learn't.

Got quite a few hours in here... not the most/least by a long shot.  Gave a lot of donations too, close to or higher than the hours I've given (Steam hours, not game hours.  That one seems broken).  Those were my choices to make.  I and others cannot hold DE responsible like they MADE us do those things.  Like DE felt it had to make a promise it really should have known better to make (EP).  But that is not what I wanna talk about.  That's not what the title alludes to.

Here is a list of frames that need reworks in a kneejerk, hatemongering fashion really soon!

Starting with the Ash category we got...

-Ember  4 to AoE stun/kill death sphere.

-Frost  4 to murder death kill stun maybe.

-Mag 4 to MDK

-Mirage 4 to MDK

-Nezha 4 to MDK

-NOVA Ash got it, your turn now!

-Oberon It's an AoE and you press 4, sorry OB, you got it rough...

-Rhino Still counts.

-Saryn Let the disease grow... Everywhere.

-Vauban Also counts.

Lot of 4 to MDK AoE up there!  All shiny and EXACTLY THE SAME...  Let's see the smaller category next:

-Atlas 4 to walking turret.

-Chroma 4 to rave turret.

-Hydroid 4 to hentai turret.

-Nekros 4 to forbidden shadow clone jutsu.

All that turret... very gimmicky.  Could definitely do with some 'ACTIVE' element... What could be next?

-EXCALIBUR 4 to WOOSHWOOSHWOOSHWOOSHWOOSH (Make everyone's ears bleed profusely and be a jock).

That's my version of favoritism, singling it out and saying what everyone hea- well, would hear.  Mostly a joke.  Next:

-Equinox 4 to buff, 4 to crossdress, 4 to buff differently.

-Trinity 4 to not die as fast.  4 to stay relevant.

So much rework required, so little time.  Last but not least:

-Inaros 4 to be buff. 4 to life.  May be the safest here.  Again, sorry Oberon...

-Nyx 4 to give fingers for a very, very long time.  4 to potty break.  4 to microwave food.  4 to...

-Valkyr My favorite frame from the first time I started having problems.  4 to not die.  Was so simple and pure.  It didn't do anything but keep you living and restrict you to melee.  Melee, you know, that thing that is useless in endgame(100+) with the exception of like 2 frames.
-Limbo 4 to safespace.

(Have yet to play Titania, forgive me.  Hospital sucks.)
Lot of invinciblity there that needs to... Oh wait, enemies developed this technology that ruins Warframes and completely rips out a whole way to play the game while making the story make NO sense.  Because invincibility is useless (in any mission that requires killing) if you can't ever kill anything.

TL:DR People like to wear horse blinders and hate on one thing despite EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING being the exact same.  So my contribution to the bandwagon is to direct all Ash haters to Nova next.  Because nobody should have nice things.  Nobody makes you stay in a group with those people you hate for some absurd, blown out of proportions reason you did some mental gymnastics to develop.  But you have contributed to making every warframe play the exactly same way, just at a different tune.  Nobody made you play one of the warframes that doesn't have an AoE.  It's called CHOICE.  Look, there were different categories!  Those are PLAYSTYLES.  There are so many frames, so many playstyles, but making everything more difficult by nerfing the popular ones instead or lifting up the less popular ones (LIKE WAS JUST DONE TO GUNS) is not the way to fly.  I'd like the Warframe slogan to not become literal, and only ninja warframes to be left.  Lot of great ideas have been made a reality and then made redundant by the slap in the face of a huge enemy difficulty curb.  What's the point of all this choice and promotion of teamplay if everyone has to choose specific things?

[megastorm]

6 minutes ago, LegionCynex said:

Relax, they won't remove that mod, alot of people use it.

Only thing they chuold do is combine it with Telport itself or even bladestrom. (So you go into bladestrom mode and just TP to your mobs)

Saying relax is super out of context. I am very relaxed. 

Anyways, it is redundant, and it quite could be combined and change the mod to work with bladestorm on the first target i guess. Stiill will seem a bit odd.

I do feel ash has been shafted a bit with almost all of his syndicate mods. We got armor stripping but corrosive projection is out. We got teleport finisher but then covert lethality came out. We got bonus duration on melee but then body count. Nevertheless, it is kinda a good thing as we have more ways to achieve what we can't install as syndicate mods.

Edited November 26, 2016 by megastorm

[47ss]

1) BladeStrom:

I don't know what this rework was supposed to fix or change, because if the problem was that you press 4 and sit there while ash is going through the killing animation, now you have to cast smoke screen for maximum efficiency + go into mark mode + shake the mouse left and right to mark most of the enemies in the room + press 4 and site there (longer if you have access to free energy, because more enemies are being marked), and if the problem was that your teammates can't damage red marked pre-bladestormed enemies, the problem is still there.

I like the original idea of the rework that was mentioned in the Devstream,when you cast bladestorm 2 clones will be created and start killing enemies within range like ember's world on fire, but instead of making it automatically, why not merging both systems, which will allow players to cast bladestorm create the 2 clones and start marking enemies for the clones to kill, make it a toggled ability will solve the issue with the energy cost at the moment.

If that does sound boring or 'op' , a new exalted ability would be awesome too, the system is there anyways :D

 

2) Smoke Screen:

Smoke screen changes are awesome, i wish that the Smoke Shadow augment was effected by range mods, that would create a new play style for ash, and maybe add some Crowd Control aspects to it, like leaving a smoke cloud at the area of the cast that would  blind /stun /confuse enemies within range.

 

3) Teleport :

It's okey, more mobility and options to explore.

 

1) Shuriken:

Shuriken is already a great first ability, with the augment equipped and the some power strength, you can strip enemy armor completely.

 

 

All in all i gave this rework 2 Shuriken out of 5.

Thank you for reading.

[Noobverest]

To be honest I wish they would just plain out rework his blade storm into not blade storm.

Instead of having him go hump everyone he marks, I wish he could attack all of the marked targets at once. By like, sending out many clones at once so it just clears all marks at once, instead of turning a mob invul and letting ash hump around until he finally gets through all the marks.

Right now, one of my complaints is that comparing to the abilities of other frames, Ash's killing ability has the least amount of synergy and damage/kill to energy efficiency. Needless to say, compared to before, he's a lot less efficient now too.

Some people are saying that Ash has higher damage than other frame abilities but that's honestly not true except for Excalibur (but Excalibur has a line attack so technically he does more damage (because it hits multiple targets)).

I don't know how poorly other people build their stuff but my Mesa, Ivara, Titania, Valkyr, Atlas abilities do around the same, or more than Ash's blade storm and it's a lot more energy efficient (Except for maybe Mesa, she's around the same as Ash in terms of energy efficiency, but her ability is a lot more auto and a lot faster, and a lot better. Edit: Oh but I forgot I was talking about kill to energy efficiency ratio, she's better than Ash in that sense).

 

Anyways,

I actually do want something like the OP suggested with Shuriken.

I love shuriken spamming but it just plain sucks above lv 15

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Noobverest
added bit after Mesa

[Irorone]

Proposed rework has only one directly damaging ability, first comment after complains about it turning into a "press four" like somehow pressing more buttons is a requirement for fun.  Literally the only thing "synergistic" about his rework is the smoke bomb/bladestorm cost reduction which is only in place cuz people don't realize that his smoke bomb is actually a pretty close second to loki's invis.  Only disadvantage is smoke bomb doesn't have a silencing aug, but it DOES have a party invis aug: congratulations a frame that was "press four to win" could basically turn an entire party invisible for twenty or so seconds at a time (easily regenerating the energy with zenurik to recast and still have enough to fatal teleport a few different times) but people were too focused on his four to care.

Seriously ash I think is the ONLY frame to have an aug for ALL of his powers, or at the very least one of VERY few frames that do and at least two have ridiculous potential (fatal teleport for obvious reasons and team invis for not so obvious reasons).

Shuriken has a weakpoint making aug.

Smoke bomb has team invisibility

Fatal Teleport

Melee Combo Count bladestorm

Edited November 26, 2016 by Irorone

[onieyez]

I think people just wants to get rid of all CC and AOE spells so that we can die to infinite range Napalms and have no way of defending targets

[megastorm]

6 minutes ago, Noobverest said:

To be honest I wish they would just plain out rework his blade storm into not blade storm.

Instead of having him go hump everyone he marks, I wish he could attack all of the marked targets at once. By like, sending out many clones at once so it just clears all marks at once, instead of turning a mob invul and letting ash hump around until he finally gets through all the marks.

Right now, one of my complaints is that comparing to the abilities of other frames, Ash's killing ability has the least amount of synergy and damage/kill to energy efficiency. Needless to say, compared to before, he's a lot less efficient now too.

Some people are saying that Ash has higher damage than other frame abilities but that's honestly not true except for Excalibur (but Excalibur has a line attack so technically he does more damage (because it hits multiple targets)).

I don't know how poorly other people build their stuff but my Mesa, Ivara, Titania, Valkyr, Atlas abilities do around the same, or more than Ash's blade storm and it's a lot more energy efficient (Except for Mesa, she's around the same as Ash in terms of energy efficiency, but her ability is a lot more auto and a lot faster, and a lot better.).

 

Anyways,

I actually do want something like the OP suggested with Shuriken.

I love shuriken spamming but it just plain sucks above lv 15

 

I don't think you are taking into account his bleeds with it. And for that it can be dismissable as its a dot vs upfront damage issue. But if taken into account his buffs to add bleed to shuriken (especially with armor stripping) and bladestorm made them much more deadly if not killed outright. Its just that the ones you named (besides atlas) has all of there damage front loaded and seem like they do more damage.

Edited November 26, 2016 by megastorm

[Noobverest]

1 minute ago, megastorm said:

I don't think you are taking into account his bleeds with it. And for that it can be dismissable as its a dot vs upfront damage issue. But if taken into account his buffs to add bleed to shuriken (especially with armor stripping) and bladestorm made them much more deadly if not killed outright. Its just that the ones you named (besides atlas) has all of there damage front loaded and seem like they do more damage.

Well that's true I guess,

but Warframe is basically all about killing in 3s or it's poop

Time is money, which is why people always try to find the fastest, easiest way to cheese anything farmable.

 

It's what happens in a game where you endlessly farm till you're bored

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

its not quite the exact same as ash's bladestorm deals finisher damage, bypassing shields and armour, dealing slash procs meaning it absolutely destroyed just about any grineer or corpus enemy (barring a few heavies). combine that with the ability to target from an insane distance and though walls, the fact it was not a channeled ability (zenurik passive + efficiency build = infinite bladestorming), the fact that it rendered you totally invincible for the duration and that it only required 1 button press means that it was worlds above any other ability in terms of energy usage, effectiveness and effort required.

[ZoneDymo]

I like the rework a lot !

I love that it now synergieses so well with the second ability.

That is one thing I would like perhaps pondered over, a way to lengthen the duration of the second (smoke screen) by ways if ingame actions.
Like something you can do ingame that would grand a longer obscuring time.

 

(PS, idk why so many people claim enemies are still invincible during Ash's 4th....did they even try this rework out or read anything about it?)

Edited November 26, 2016 by ZoneDymo

[megastorm]

5 minutes ago, Noobverest said:

Well that's true I guess,

but Warframe is basically all about killing in 3s or it's poop

Time is money, which is why people always try to find the fastest, easiest way to cheese anything farmable.

 

It's what happens in a game where you endlessly farm till you're bored

I agree with you. No arguments there. I hate cheese. It gives me gas. Though I been playing with Ash since the beginning and both ash and ash prime is my most used frames. So I been there when he was low, when high, and now kinda middle. I guess my stance is waiting for everyone to get their rework. It seems that DE is working hard to prevent us from being too powerful. Which is fine, but I worry about the pacing the community expects to have once all the reworks are done. And I am sure there will be more mobs like nullifiers in the future. Hopefully it won't be too bad.

Edited November 26, 2016 by megastorm

[Praxxor]

28 minutes ago, Ainrev said:

-Mirage 4 to MDK

Are you seriously saying that Prism needs ANOTHER NERF?

[Keltik0ne]

I got as far as you saying Mag's 4 was good for killing, then couldn't see too well through the laughter tears.

[Separius]

Shurikens can be done easier. 

Just make him equip them like Ivaras' bow, they wouls behave like Hikous except with alt fire throwing them in a fan as you said, make them consume energy instead of ammo and aside from power strength, make the damage be affected by mods on the secondary he's using, like hornet strike and concealed explosives.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

Just now, Praxxor said:

Are you seriously saying that Prism needs ANOTHER NERF?

i think OP is just salty that ash's "press 4 and have a cup of tea" got nerfed and is now getting a little bit hysterical, sarcastically demanding that every other frame meet the "same" fate
edit: sorry i wrote yourname instead of "OP"

Edited November 26, 2016 by DeckChairVonBananaCamel
error

[Zareek]

GREETINGS!

 

First I need to say, I don't do megathreads for feedback. I think it's ridiculous. Feedback is meant to be towards DE, and if I leave a feedback on page 65/230, then there is no way in hell DE is going to read it. It ruins the purpose of leaving feedback. So if this gets moved into the megathread, or if I get a warning for it, then so be it. But I stand by my statement. The more feedback gets hidden in a massive megathread, the less likely some people are to provide feedback in the future. Why bother if there is no chance DE will read it anyways?
And also, as a "veteran" Ash player, I'm quite passionate about this subject. 

 

Before I provide the skill feedback, I would just like to thank the creators of the deluxe skin. Absolutely love it. It puts Ash back to the time where he was slick and simple. True of the whole "ninja" concept. So thanks for making a truely remarkable and appropriate deluxe skin. It's wonderful.

 

Now to the Ash skills. I would like to go over each of them, and not only the "reworked" abilities. Because people still seem to want more for Ash, which I'm very much against. 

Shuriken: Very happy this was not touched. This ability does decent damage, PLUS bleed. For the majority of the game, this ability is extremely helpful, and does the damage it should. It's perfect for a quick helpful strikes at distance, and can be a life saver when reloading. We already got an upgrade to this ability a while back, and I personally think this is at a very comfortable place now.

Smoke Screen: The fact that this ability was only usable when stationary, could sometimes mean it was very risky to use. The new changes that allows this to be used when on the move, really opens up a lot more potential for playing Ash, and using him as a fast phased killer. It now fits perfectly with the speed of the game, and Im very grateful that this was all that was done to the ability. It's a very handy ability, quick to use and staggers enemies around you. This was all that was needed in my opinion!

Teleport: This was the one ability I was the most worried about, when people kept saying Ash needed a rework. This ability is so much better, than what people give it credit for. Even without the augment, this ability is PERFECT for singling out tough enemies like bombards and other heavy units. With the augment this pretty much means you dont have to worry about those enemies at all. Not only that, I have used this ability to get to my dying mates, seconds before they die. This ability is a perfect tool for Ash, and it works as I assume intended. 
The addition to this ability is rather redundant. But it does give a bit more freedom for the usage of the skill, so I'll take it. I'm just grateful this ability wasn't changed.

Bladestorm: Boy oh boy.... Did this rework get a lot of hate when the concept was announced. What was my reaction? Well something like this: http://cdn.ipernity.com/142/34/71/31953471.8386cb6c.640.jpg?r2

This change will hopefully put a stop to the overly abused bladestorm spam. I love playing Ash, and seeing him "abused" for a simple 1 hit clear tool before, made me cringe everytime. Now bladestorm has finally become a high speed killing tool, that is absolutely a riot to use. I love it! It's not even difficult to line up 10+ enemies for a bladestorm. I've now used this in several missions already, and I have absolutely no problem utilizing this ability at ALL. It does put a few limitations on certain things, compared to the old bladestorm, but those are really no issue as long as people don't rely on bladestorm 100%. Utilize all his abilities, and the weapons you bring, and you shouldn't have a problem.

THE ONLY PROBLEM is that bladestorm now has a slight delay after marking enemies. Clicking 4 to use the ability after marking sometimes has a small delay. I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but it's a very problematic thing considering this change has made it a lot more fast phased to use. I will report this as a bug as well. Just in case.

This change is exceeds all my expectations, and I really do hope this change has come to stay. Ash feels more like a high speed ninja than ever, and I enjoy using him even more now.

 

Overall I think the rework was pretty damn good. 

THE END

[Voluundr]

" EXCALIBUR 4 to WOOSHWOOSHWOOSHWOOSHWOOSH (Make everyone's ears bleed profusely and be a jock). "

My playstyle in words.

[Praxxor]

Just now, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

i think Praxxor is just salty that ash's "press 4 and have a cup of tea" got nerfed and is now getting a little bit hysterical, sarcastically demanding that every other frame meet the "same" fate

You have some S#&$ty assumptions mate, I don't even use Ash, and I hated BlateStorm, I actually like the new rework, try again.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

Just now, Praxxor said:

You have some S#&$ty assumptions mate, I don't even use Ash, and I hated BlateStorm, I actually like the new rework, try again.

its my bad! i wrote your name instead of "OP"

[Praxxor]

Just now, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

its my bad! i wrote your name instead of "OP"

Aight, makes more sense.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

Just now, Praxxor said:

Aight, makes more sense.

lol, yeah i was trying to reference the original poster's name but didnt want to scroll all the way back up. some dumb section of my brain told me to look at the name in the quote on my own comment instead of the one in yours