Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Yaerion]

2 hours ago, SpyGhostOtissss said:

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1 hour ago, (XB1)kr1sPYDonuts said:

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"Ash... At least better but not enough" was Teleported within 

 

[Rain3ternal]

1 hour ago, Aquifn said:

Bladestorm requires too much 'stopping the action' to get started. And it didn't fix what you claimed to set out to fix at all. Please revert it or change it completely. It takes ash 20+ seconds to do what nova/frost/ember/ecta does in one button push.

Yet no one cries about them being in need of a nerf. It's really kind of sad. It's like I said in a post a while back: This wasn't a rework to fix a problem, it was a nerf to stop the original people complaining about it. All it did was make sure the vast majority never bother with using 4. Mission accomplished. 

[RunningTree3]

After spending some time playing around with revisited Ash, reading through this thread, and even video reviews, I would like to add my feedback:

* Shuriken has noticably much better tracking

* Smoke Screen becoming one-handed cast makes play very slick

Regarding Blade Storm, after some adjustment, I have found it very enjoyable.

At first, I thought that having Ash still being locked into animation was problematic, but thinking and playing further, because the targeting is now within player control, it is possible to control the amount of lock-in. Like Soundquake and Peacemaker, there is a risk trade-off for keeping a power going. And like SoundQuake and PeaceMaker, Blade Storm now seems to work better in shorter bursts. And I often wish to raise the point: just because a power is channelled (or in this case, multi-targetted), does not mean it has to be activated for a long duration.

It actually feels like Shuriken has been left behind, needing a little extra something (other threads have suggested adding an additional impact or puncture proc). A single instance of Blade Storm can now deal 2000 Finisher + a full Bleed proc, for only 15 energy -- while Shuriken hits for 2 x 500 Slash + full bleed proc, for 25 energy. In a way, having an animation lock-in seems to be the only balancing factor for Blade Storm.

Overall, a very satisfactory development and promising direction.

Edited November 27, 2016 by RunningTree3

[TwevOWNED]

I don't see the point of reworking Bladestorm. All that was changed about it is now it has a slightly longer start up time and costs more energy. It still has the overly long and drawn out animation, is still boring and non interactive. It would be much better if his clones ran around and did the stabbing while the player still has control.

[p3z1]

Teleport is still kinda buggy on its target acquisition, still can't teleport to some objects with health.

Smoke Screen duration should be minimally buffed IMO, maybe add a second or 2 to all levels.

Ash's ult is kinda meh now. Currently playing him as a pointman (low range, high duration, good efficiency, taking point and BS'ing) OR as a sniper (high range and efficiency, sacrificing a bit of damage). It doesn't really change what people hate, and that is:
- Still being animation-locked. It'd be honestly better if Ash/Prime "deploys" 1/2/2/3 images to do the BS'ing for him.
- AND/OR Ash/Prime only attacks a target once, the rest of the marks are consumed by the images.
- Sure, tagged enemies can be killed, but once BS is cast, they can't be damaged. They should be able to be killed by allies even at this state, but refund only 50% of the energy cost (IIRC tagged enemies pre-second cast refund all the energy).
Another gripe is the increased energy cost to reach the 18-target mark. I'm gonna ask for a slight reduction in energy cost per tag sent out (maybe 10/5 unstealthed/stealthed) energy per tag.
Lastly, the disappearing corpses really are useless IMO, considering that enemies still see the corpses for a few more seconds AFTER the corpse expires. Not really a problem for stealth runs since abilities don't grant stealth multipliers. I'm pretty sure this is an intended nerf affecting Nekros players.

Shuriken was untouched. It's practically a nuke, useful early on, falling off later. It's use is limited, even with Seeking shuriken, since players can't really pick targets, unless said target is the last unit standing. I am suggesting something to make it more synergistic with his current kit.
- Shuriken now throws 1/2/2/3 shurikens, doubled during the first cast of Bladestorm.
- Shuriken costs 50% of the base energy cost if it is cast while stealthed.
- Shuriken targeting priority becomes 0 marks>1 mark>2 marks>3 marks during the 1st part of Bladestorm
- Shuriken deals 50% damage during the 1st part of Bladestorm

Lastly, if energy costs don't get reduced, hopefully ash gets a better energy pool. Maybe 175/200 for Ash/Prime.

Edited November 27, 2016 by p3z1
Wow, some parts were gone for unknown reasons

[xXFshXx]

8 hours ago, CAM237 said:

Ash should be an assassin, not middle management. The idea of sending others to do the killing seems sort of counterproductive, since it's basically turning ash into a frame with pet mobs.

Might as well just turn bladestorm into an aoe, where anything within a radius around him takes damage from him being "super fast" and teleport in around. Thing is devs supposedly already  tried this and didn't like it.

Would even prefer a channeled version akin to Mesa where Ash channels in one place then disappears and kills things in the distance within LOS, with effects having him blinking from target to target (a lot like mesa and her blinking as she fires off shots).

The smoke Ash´s are not pets but clones , clones that are controled by Ash. I think it is way more elegant for a killer to controle clones of himself from a distance to kill his Targets than going out by himself. If you wanna kill them yourself use shurikan or telleport and finisher or your normal weapons.

[Tuxie]

Really, I talked about his ult being slow before, but his ult is completely useless right now in any situation other than solo play. Literally any teammate can just steamroll the enemies, kill the ones you are marking before you even release 4. Warframe is a game that is so fast paced that most enemies could be killed faster than the time it takes to mark them, and Bladestorm isn't even powerful enough to compete with some of the end game weapons like Tigris Prime.

You want to kill the real problem with the Bladestorm rework? It's faster and more effective to just run up to the enemies and shoot them than it is to use the ability at all, rendering it *useless* in every sense of the word. Why even bother using Bladestorm at all?

[Kcham375]

I like the changes made to Ash's smoke screen and the marking mechanic to bladestorm, the only thing I would like to see changed on it would be to remove the cutscene from it and just let the clones do the damage apart from Ash.  An idea I have for shuriken is to let it synergize with smoke screen by giving the shuriken and their bleed procs stealth damage when cloaked.  I think that would put Ash in a really good place.

 

[R4YCH40S]

I guess I should condense all what's that being said(played Ash too) so here's my feedback.

Smokebomb=Nice buff overall,but should've been there in 1st place.Oh well.

Teleport= Somewhat can be problematic if you happen to get stuck between objects for no reason.

Bladestorm=Now becomes a way more clunkier mechanics,which can be effectively redundant when you can just press your gun's trigger/augmented teleport and finish the job.Essentially making him impractical,and hey,Nekros called in.He wants more corpses to Desecrate.

Seriously,Bladestorm's 2.0 should be back into the re-work bench.You have enough inputs from various players here which I'm not gonna re-iterate,but I would abhor from giving Ash another "Exalted Blade" Copy version of oh so many potential Frame Offenders here.

Cheers.

[Leleat]

I really do enjoy his rework so far. Before, I only used to run Ash for "speed runs" on sorties. But now I put a couple Forma on him to make a fun duration and strength build (with 100% efficiency combined with rage+vitality and 50% range)  and he is slowly becoming one of my favorite Frames thanks due the more mobile and close-combat play-style (now I actually feel like a space ninja XD).

I really liked his 1. So I am happy that nothing(?)/not much changed here. It's a great utility abiltiy with the augment mod and you can easily kill high-amored enemies (although on normal mission it's kinda useless since any fully modded weapon kills everything up to a certain level.....).

The change to the smokescreen is probably the best thing that happened with the rework. Smokescreen is a lot more useful now and is worth modding for (at least for duration). Although I wish the change would have been a bit more... more (like faster cast animation, slight bonus speed during invisibility or something which encourages a more mobile playstyle which the rework itself seems to be promoting).

His 3 is kinda useless though. And the rework didn't really help it. I don't see a use-case for it except Solo-Stealth mission runs and even then it's only useful for single-target kills. I think something like Nova's Wormhole (only for Ash) would have been a better change so that Ash can move around faster and more freely (e.g. instantly traveling 30m without it being tied to a condition).  

As for Ash's 4, I really do enjoy change and the marking system. I think it balances the damage output and the amount of time you need to invest into the marking very well. You can have your 4 active all the time and reactivate it when you think it's worth it. So you can still kill 10 enemies when you see them/if they are crowded together but not an entire map or room and hog the kills for yourself (never noticed how insane Blade Storm's bleed damage can be since I used to kill everything with 1 press of a key).

The Problem with the 4 still is that you are stuck in the animation and watch it doing nothing... and this is just horrible. It defeats the purpose of being a fast and mobile space ninja and removing the interactivity. The change should have been more drastic IMHO. For example, only send out the 2 clones which preform the blade storm so that you can still move around freely. This might be too OP but you could reduce the damage slightly but make the ability to send out clones recastable or something similiar (welp then... a new blade storm animation would be pretty cool :3).

But overall, I really like the new Ash but wish it would have been more. Still, GJ DE XD.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Leleat

[Sergster]

Dear DE. I have an idea to turn Ash's bladestorm interactive, AND much faster, rather than slow paced marking which gets you killed in higher levels.

How about the following: Bladestorm is returned to what it was before, but with a twist. When Ash teleports to an enemy, a small timer circle of say, 2-4 seconds appears, during that time window, you must manually attack via m1 to attack the enemy up to roughly 4-6 times, then you are immediately teleported to another enemy, and the aforementioned repeats. That way it makes both parties happy, Bladestorm remains more interactive rather than an edgy cutscene, and it's fast enough to keep up with the pace of the game ESPECIALLY in high levels, where just walking around to wait for the marks is just suicidal. Which forces you to build towards atleast roughly 100% duration to use smoke screen efficiently which is pretty much a must by now. So please, take this idea  to consideration, tweak it a way suitable to you, since you're the developers and maybe just a biiit more professional when it comes to, all this.

 

Sincerely, someone who wants Ash to keep up with the fast pace, yet not be a press four to cutscene and killsteal.

[Take_Your_Doom]

По 25.11.2016 в 21:56, сказал main_antagonist:

Если переделки не принимают любезно предлагаю де скользит по моей старой концепции, но я уверен, что новой переделки будет хорошо :д раскрутили Так!

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По 25.11.2016 в 21:54, [де]Даниэль сказал:

Мы решили переработать лезвие шторма после того, как почти целый год того же тематические отзывы появляться. Мы часто слышали и испытали власть, которая не допускает участия игрока за нажатие 4 раз и ждут. Мы все чаще стремимся полномочия по участию (особенно ульты) и ориентирована на то, чтобы подчеркнуть, что для Блейд шторма.

Шторм Блейд Изменения:

• Лезвие шторма теперь имеет новый режим пометить врага, который активируется, когда вы нажмите 4. Зола входит в режим, в котором вы можете свободно выбирать врагов с ваш ридикюль до 3 раз каждый для атаки. Как только вы будете удовлетворены, нажмите кнопку 4 еще раз, Блейд Шторм начинается и все целевые враги напали!
• Каждый знак затраты на электроэнергию (15), который зависит от модов. Если помеченный враг был убит товарищем по команде, вы получите энергию обратно.
• Метки, сделанные во время невидимым от любого источника будет дешевле базовой стоимости (10).
• Враги убили лезвие шторма будет растворяться, оставляя труп за спиной, чтобы обнаружить!

Телепорт Изменения:

• Телепорт теперь позволит вам ничего целевого с баром здоровья! Вместо того, чтобы ограничиваться телепортации союзников или врагов, теперь вы можете телепортироваться к объектам.

Изменения Дымовая Завеса:

• Дымовая завеса теперь можно кастовать во время бега (не ниже движение тела замка).
• Дымовая завеса теперь можно кастовать, находясь в воздухе!

Обратите внимание, что мы будем внимательно следить за вашей практической обратной связи - пожалуйста, не стесняйтесь делиться видео и обсуждения после игры такой переделки. Это поможет нам, если вы включают в себя информацию о построить слишком привык.

Редактировать: неконструктивная Обратная связь, дэв-трепку, и любой другой контент, который нарушает Кодекс поведения, будут удалены.

Редактировать: все связанные с этим темы будут объединены здесь. Спасибо!

Я конечно многое понимаю, но зачем было изменять скилы Эша, он не самый имбовый из варфреймов, да я согласен его ульта сносила много урона, но тот же рино, его урон проходит по всей площади даже сквозь стены, Эша только в мобильную оборону часто брали, и Эмбер тоже, нет просто вот такие реворки бесят, вы просто хотите чтоб они были командными варфреймами, с одной стороны плюс, но с каждым таким реворком уходят люди которые любили играть на том или ином варфрейме, если вам не сложно ответьте на мой вопрос, зачем Вы пытаетесь делать варфреймов командными если от них пропадает толк вообще 

 

[Syln]

i will just copy paste my feedback about bladestorm here :

would be nice to have a synergy with the 4 :

Basically bladestorm become death mark (or whatever name) which apply a mark (as it does right now) but instead of pressing 4 again you'll have the choice between 1 or 3

Pressing 1 will throw a shuriken at each marked enemies applying a bleed proc and slightly slowing them down, you can see that as some kind of bonuses granted by the marks (won't consume the marks)

Pressing 3 will send clones to do the usual bladestorm letting you free to do your stuff while they're at it (which will consume the marks)

[Hypernaut1]

The more time i spend with the new Ash, the better i feel about his rework. I cant get top kills as easily anymore, but hes definitely more engaging and feels more ninja assasin like. The old BS was really just an AoE nuke with a cutscene. The reworked BS actually feels like a ninja ability. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Inugami999]

Ash rework is heading in the right direction, but I feel it's just not there yet. I see that DE are trying to put emphasis on the Idea of Ash being a stealth damage frame where as Loki is a stealth utility frame, and the smoke screen + blade storm synergy rise an interesting Idea of blade storm working with all of his other abilities?

Shuriken -unchanged (well a bit more dmg or a bit more accurate would be nice) Shuriken/Smoke bomb - this will now use an ammo system where Ash can switch between shuriken and smoke bomb.

•  Shuriken- like how it is now maybe buff it damage a bit more.- augment mod - unchanged
• Smoke bomb - Allow Ash to throw smoke bomb(s) stunning nearby enemies and leave behind a smoke screen. Enemies that are inside the smoke are blinded and is open to finisher. Ash/Allies will be invisible within the smoke. - augment mod - same as Shuriken 

 

Smoke screen - stagger nearby enemy and leave behind a smoke screen Ash/ally remain invisible while standing in it and stay invis + gain a speed buff for a short duration(half the duration of his current default smoke screen duration) upon exiting it(only Ash get this effect), enemy that are inside the smoke screen are open up for finisher and is count toward stealth multiplier if Ash/ally remain unseen (enemy outside smoke screen cannot see into the screen, but can hear noises) - augment mod - granting ally an 8 seconds speed buff when they leave the screen 

Smoke and shadows - Ash transform into smoke and attract other smoke screens that he threw out towards him, with every smoke screen that he attracted, his invisibility duration is refresh (reduced by 50% for every smoke screen he consumed or work like Wukong's defy but with duration, not very good at math) after the duration end, Ash send out clones of himself dealing damage to nearby enemies.- augment mod- clones will now deal finisher damage on enemies (or something else if anyone have a better idea that mine)

Teleport - like how it is now with one minor change addition - does not stagger target and count toward stealth multiplier if unseen Ash can now teleport towards smoke screens that he threw out. augment mod - unchanged

Blade Storm - like how it is now but with more synergy with his other 3 ability. augment mod - unchanged

   Target mode: 

              All finishers in this mode will use Ash's blade storm animation (without the camera angle change)

                Shuriken/Smoke bomb - 

• Shuriken- Marks targets are hit with it.
• Smoke bomb- Allow Ash to instantly mark all nearby enemies around him if he's inside a smoke screen with a reduced energy cost.

                Smoke screen - Like how it is now but reduce his other abilities cost as well as long as Ash is inside the screen.

                Smoke and shadows - Ash now immediately send clones out dealing no damage, but stagger nearby enemies open them up for finisher.

                Teleport -  use blade storm animation for his finisher instead of his melee weapon's animation and deal more damage in this mode (can stack with augment mod) with faster animation speed

     "Pull the trigger" : send out 2/3/4 clones(based on Ash rank) that go after marked targets while Ash freely do whatever. As long as there are still clones mark on the UI  there are still marked enemies, Ash using blade storm animation for his melee finisher.

 

Just my humble idea about it, 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Inugami999

[Oni-Habu]

3 hours ago, xXFshXx said:

The smoke Ash´s are not pets but clones , clones that are controled by Ash. I think it is way more elegant for a killer to controle clones of himself from a distance to kill his Targets than going out by himself. If you wanna kill them yourself use shurikan or telleport and finisher or your normal weapons.

They're basically summoned pets. The only reason "clones" were ever used on the ability was because bladestorm took so long to kill everything in its original guise. There was nothing in Ash's background about summoning and controlling doubles of himself, and it really has no relation to the rest of his powerset.

Just get rid of clones together, and rework it as ash moving really fast

[Hypernaut1]

Ive been exclusively using Ash's new premium skin since rework and it actually almost feels like im playing a new warframe. My play style has changed with him now too. Since ive been toying around with the new bladestorm, ive rarely been using my primary at all so that adds to the new character feel too.

[AppleEyes]

Hey guys i realy enjoy the new Ash Ultimate ability. But i would apriciate a counter down on his ability that shows how many enemys are marked. I use a dark purple colour energy that i really like but it is kind of invisible on the enemy when i try to ult them. I am just not sure if i have them in my ult or not. The counter would really help out with that problem. 

 

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

17 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The more time i spend with the new Ash, the better i feel about his rework. I cant get top kills as easily anymore, but hes definitely more engaging and feels more ninja assasin like. The old BS was really just an AoE nuke with a cutscene. The reworked BS actually feels like a ninja ability. 

So u never once asked your self, Why am i marking enemies when i could just shoot them or use ashs 3?

Ash now has even less team synergy than before. His old CC BS was a room nuke. Just like every other CC frame. 

Now his BS cant keep up and is not even close to being on par to all other frames CC 4. 

Go run a sortie defense with a experienced (speed) nova, and frost, ember, sayrn, excalibur, rihno, volt, mag or any other CC frame. Use your new BS... Enemies are dead before u mark 2 targets. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Sashmaul]

I have tried out the Ash rework and mostly it is good. I like that he feels more stealthy on the move, the teleport still feels a bit clunky though. 

Now the blade storm, I am not sure really how this has become more interactive really, essentially it is the same thing but slowed down as you have to now wait to mark enemies. As others have said let it send out the clones and you can still fight instead of sitting there and watching the cinematic it fundamentally has not changed.

Sorry I really dont see the point in this as I dont see the interactivity as you dont even select priority targets it just selects the ones on the screen. This is just my opinion though. I do like the sugestions to interact with the other abilities however I feel skeptical that this would happen. 

[Sar.K.Asmus]

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 The old BS was really just an AoE nuke with a cutscene. The reworked BS actually feels like a ninja ability. 

The new BS is still just an AoE nuke with a cutscene, the only difference is that before you spend 1 seecond casting it and watched a cutscene for 10 seconds and now you spend about 5 seconds casting it and then watch a 10 seconds cutscene. Teleport is still THE INTERACTIVE BLADE STORM (Manually teleport to a target and manually perform a finisher (or use the augment) = definition of interactive Blade Storm). Now i have to wait another 3 years till Ash finally gets a completely new ultimate. 

[Predaxxx]

ash is usless now . make it back

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

After spending some time playing around with revisited Ash, reading through this thread, and even video reviews, I would like to add my feedback:

* Shuriken has noticably much better tracking

* Smoke Screen becoming one-handed cast makes play very slick

Regarding Blade Storm, after some adjustment, I have found it very enjoyable.

At first, I thought that having Ash still being locked into animation was problematic, but thinking and playing further, because the targeting is now within player control, it is possible to control the amount of lock-in. Like Soundquake and Peacemaker, there is a risk trade-off for keeping a power going. And like SoundQuake and PeaceMaker, Blade Storm now seems to work better in shorter bursts. And I often wish to raise the point: just because a power is channelled (or in this case, multi-targetted), does not mean it has to be activated for a long duration.

It actually feels like Shuriken has been left behind, needing a little extra something (other threads have suggested adding an additional impact or puncture proc). A single instance of Blade Storm can now deal 2000 Finisher + a full Bleed proc, for only 15 energy -- while Shuriken hits for 2 x 500 Slash + full bleed proc, for 25 energy. In a way, having an animation lock-in seems to be the only balancing factor for Blade Storm.

Overall, a very satisfactory development.

Except now u spam 2 all day, why not use loki and covert lethality.

[Malice]

8 hours ago, IzanagiZero said:

So the new Ash bladestorm rework is an interesting decision however it generally made him unplayable as the targeting reticle is the only way to mark targets. Since the targeting reticle is so small, it makes it relatively difficult to target enemies unless you wave your mouse around like crazy and hope you targeted multiple enemies on your screen. Why not give Ash the same targeting system as Mesa Peacemaker? Like a larger reticle to target groups of enemies instead of just 1 at a time? That would make the ability much more useful and smoother rather than shaking your screen around and hope you tag more than 3 enemies.

It would be interesting to see this implemented and how DE can changed it up a little slightly different.

One thing I felt took away the fun was whilst constantly marking enemies, after awhile I had to look at various enemy I marked a few seconds ago to check and see if I marked them three times and it keeps repeating to the point from one enemy to another. It became so inconvenient I just decided to shoot them instead.

[Hypernaut1]

38 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

 

 

So u never once asked your self, Why am i marking enemies when i could just shoot them or use ashs 3?

Ash now has even less team synergy than before. His old CC BS was a room nuke. Just like every other CC frame. 

Now his BS cant keep up and is not even close to being on par to all other frames CC 4. 

Go run a sortie defense with a experienced (speed) nova, and frost, ember, sayrn, excalibur, rihno, volt, mag or any other CC frame. Use your new BS... Enemies are dead before u mark 2 targets. 

because not everyone runs around with a tonkor. BS can kill multiple enemies in a wider range than even the old BS could. i can mark enemies in two different areas now. I'll admit, i dont use my primary as much now with Ash, but your acting like BS doesnt out-damage any weapons. It does, and its still ignores armor. 

I do keep up with killing. I do my share. It may not be the old Ash where im just nuking every room i enter, but im still VERY efficient at killing. I ran yesterdays Excavation with Ash and his killing power was still very helpful and effective. The biggest problem i have with BS now is that he needs some invulnerability frames after BS or at least decreased enemy accuracy. Enemies begin shooting at me before i even regain control it seems. 

Ash is far more fun to me now TBH. New BS definitely feels more assasin like

Edited November 27, 2016 by Hypernaut1