Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Guest]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

How many times buttons pressed & total of buttons need to be pressed as loki

VS

how many times buttons pressed & need to be pressed as Ash with bladestorm only.

 

 

Loki stealth is FAR superior to Ash stealth.  Seriously, activate stealth, run towards a group of enemies with a decent weapon and slide attack.  They all die at once for instant 500%.  It's the most simple thing on earth, and it could be argued that it's simpler than blade storm.  1 - Find a corner to hide in.  2 - Cast smoke screen so you can afford to mark all these guys.  3 - Have an epileptic fit with your mouse so that everyone (hopefully) turns red with BS marks.  4 - Activate your BS.  5 - Throw up due to motion sickness.

Totally comparable.

[Guest]

Also, if past frame reworks are any indication, it's safe to say that DE wants "more buttons" to equal "more damage"...  so make of that what you will...

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

9 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

Also, if past frame reworks are any indication, it's safe to say that DE wants "more buttons" to equal "more damage"...  so make of that what you will...

Yeah its true, every time...Saryn, Mesa, you can see the pattern. I didnt disagree with the stealth multiplier, just pointing the obvious fact that less button pressing required as Ash means "too op" when compared to loki invis where you have to spam slide attack 1000x every inch of your way to extraction. Meanwhile Ash is just press 4, mark targets (from afar, invis if u have to) activate ult, sit back & enjoy. Running out of energy? Theres zenurik or pizza, but you dont have to spam them like crazy.

Edit: i wanna know if the targeting affected by scanner? Can he mark targets behind the wall?

Edited November 28, 2016 by (PS4)ATreidezz

[StealthyCARNAGE]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Thats what i said the 1st time! it wouldnt make sense if you kill with hidden blades when youre having a giant axe as your melee. I like my dagger finisher move, and fatal teleport makes it easy to do that.

Then don't use Fatal Teleport? Honestly, I'm starting to get the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of it.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

Just now, S.C. said:

Then don't use Fatal Teleport? Honestly, I'm starting to get the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Err, but these enemies in index preview/rathuum cant be attacked with finisher without it?

[Reifnir]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

i wanna know if the targeting affected by scanner? Can he mark targets behind the wall?

He can't. Tried it first thing after the "rework". X-ray vision needs to be a built-in  feature of marking mode, as I suggested a bit earlier. 

[NeonNemesis]

I tried Ash after rework, and I can say that rework (can we even call it that?) was nothing but simply a lazy nerf it solved nothing about what people complained and just added a new useless part to the ulti

It's almost mandatory to build smoke bomb (which hurts his damage) if you want ulti because he now sucks energy at the same rate that politicians suck money from your pocket and even with the reducced cost he's still energy starving as you get. He's still playable but now you can remove the bladestorm only build and pretend he doesn't have an ulti.

But the worse part is that none of the issues on is ulti were adressed NONE!!!

People weren't complaing about pressing 4 selecting multiple enemies.

They were complaining about the cinematic part which they had to wait for the end of it, guess what IT'S STILL THERE!

People were complaing about how Ash allies couldn't hit his targets during BS, Guess what IT'S STILL THERE!

You could have a BS where while BSing an enemy you would have to point to your next target mid ulti, or a sort of exalted mode where you gained 50% extra speed summon the 2 clones, regular attacks would BS 1 enemy at melee while clones target nearby enemies of your target, all other abilities would only cost 25% of their cost and shuriken would send a clone to attack the target.

Instead we got some half-***ed work which solved nothing and they say they've been working on it for 1 year lol I wouldn't believe it if they said a month, let's just copy Mesa's peacemaker code add a delay and then copy-paste the previous BS code THERE brand new ulti!

I no longer want the Oberon changes, I'm just too scared of the way DE's been acting recently trying to solve 1 problem by creating 10 new ones.

[GhostlightX]

12 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

Forma....... why?  Who thought this would be a good idea?

I can answer that.  DE's "But Developer" that's who.

Here's a definition in case you've never seen it before...

But Developer

The "But Developer" is that developer on a video game dev team who sits at the meetings where all the other devs have gathered to plan the next release and all the nice stuff players want. He waits till all the dust has settled, and the full list of lovely new features is all drawn up, then he stands up and very loudly says "BUT....we could do this instead..." and then he craps all over the nice stuff and adds tons of little if's and but's that modify the list of new features in ways that no player ever wanted, and that inevitably will cause very obvious player dissatisfaction. And bizarrely, everyone listens to him or her! In general, this person is a rather small-minded person with few friends around the office. He or she is generally disliked by their peers but is tolerated, often because they have a senior position in the team. They also are typically rather unhappy, miserable people who want to spread their downer to as many other people as possible.

So to answer your question, DE have at least one But Developer, and he decided this. I suspect they have even more than one But Dev, because they exhibit the symptoms of a But Developer much more strongly than most companies.

[BrazilianJoe]

New Bladestorm: 

Failure by being too fiddly.

While marking enemies he is completely vulnerable. If he is not to have full invulnerability he should at least auto-parry like Excalibur's ultimate while targeting. 

I missed being able to keep marking enemies and keep bladestorming. 

I'd like the process to be: 

1) Press bladestorm. Ash preps his blades and starts auto-parrying. 

2) Mark enemies

3) Press bladestorm again. Ash starts teleporting and killing. Still vomit-cam. Increase FOV and withdraw from attack.

4) Enemies shouldn't be invulnerable while the attack animation is happening. 

5) If I press teleport at any enemy in the middle of the kill sequence, when bladestorm ends Ash will teleport to this position instead of returning to original location. Should charge teleportation cost only once even if teleport is pressed multiple times, and teleport only to the last marked position.

6) I should be able to move the camera in the middle of kill sequence and mark additional enemies. Energy should be the limit, not max. enemies. The power is fiddly enough as is. 

 

 

[StealthyCARNAGE]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Err, but these enemies in index preview/rathuum cant be attacked with finisher without it?

Then how about you suggest an alternate solution? Preferably something with the potential of satisfying both sides? You know, just like you're supposed to do in this thread if you have nothing new to add?

Otherwise, cry me a river.

[Zanchak]

On 26/11/2016 at 6:54 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

It'll help us if you include details on your build used too.

I need to clarify that this feedback is coming from a normal player, with my use of normal meaning, I play all the time but am not the most skilful player on the planet. I figure it is important to add this, since plenty of players I know sit in the "decent" or "ok" zone and aren't in some elite class of awesome that finds everything "easy" and has a desire to change everything you do.

BUILDS

I struggled to find one that worked nicely. Trying to boost duration so smokescreen is effective in and of itself as well as for energy cost in bladestorm is a nightmare. First you lose range, then you lose duration adding efficiency trying to off-set the unwelcome high cost of bladestorm as well. I was constantly out of energy, because to have a decent pool Id have to sacrifice something else to add a flow in. In trying a duration build with normal efficiency I was still finding him to be greedy and I was always hungry for energy in any build that I tried without flow. Honest nightmare to mod, not fun in the slightest. I want to play, not do math

SMOKESCREEN

I don't mind the update to this, though I never had an issue with it before either. We dont need other frames to be "more like Loki", we have Loki to be like Loki. People should use Loki if they want to do things like Loki.

I dislike how this is tied with bladestorm though, for the modding reasons mentioned above.

TELEPORT

I mean, it's more handy I guess so that's a good thing. I think most all teleport abilities need some more freedom to how they are used in a movement sense.

BLADESTORM

Where to begin...

Energy Consumption - for starters, is just overbearing. It's not like he's sound quaking without a break for a full minute, but he may as well be for how much this ability costs.

Damage - seemed to be way below par, whether thats coming from "having to" mark everything multiple times or not I don't know, but he was just not very effective.

Marking System - and this is why I clarified the "type" of player I am at the start.

It is awkward to use. I'm mousing over mobs, double and triple marking things while missing others entirely, meanwhile wasting away my smokescreen, which I have to do again before I press 4 (if I want even a chance of saving energy costs) at which time, Im still sitting there waiting for his animation to finish anyway. As someone said elsewhere on this thread:

On 26/11/2016 at 8:37 AM, sushidubya said:

If I'm going to use a reticule to mark targets for bladestorm why wouldn't I just shoot them instead?  LMAO.

This ^ in and of itself makes him as a "whole", irritating and unenjoyable to play now.

Tried a few different runs with different conditions and each run was fairly awkward as a whole, so much so that a frame I liked to use occassionally, will probably not be used at all now. Before, you could ninja sneak, stealth friends, stagger people AND had a decent 4 to fall back on when it hit the fan. Now, the time you waste targeting everything would be better spent in another more useful frame. I also found myself nearly dead a lot of the time. He's definitely just a shadow of the frame he was.

I had no problem with Ash as he was and nor did plenty of other people who used him as an all-rounder rather than a press 4 to win spam frame. This "feels" like an unwelcome "nerf" in response to those kinds of players, but I'd ask you to remember, we aren't all like that and some of us actually enjoy the frames as they are.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

More like 95% are just knee jerk "I hate change" reactions, 3.5 % realize it's not the end of the world and 1.5% that play Ash because he's is a ninja and not a ez mode nuke, think it's kind of cool.

The "knee jerk reaction"? thats all DE, with THEIR rendition of BS that didnt fix the original issue. lol

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[K4r4k4s4]

You really think devs will read your suggestions? This thread just a giant trash bin.

Edited November 28, 2016 by K4r4k4s4

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, K4r4k4s4 said:

You really think devs will read your suggestions? This thread just a giant trash bin.

Yes they will, you haven't been here vary long have you....

[Dragazer]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

Yes they will, you haven't been here vary long have you....

21 and 11 pages of feedback respectively, and not a single thing was changed after all the feedback.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Dragazer

[Zanchak]

6 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

21 and 11 pages of feedback respectively, and not a single thing was changed after all the feedback.

Doesn't mean it won't be in future, or isn't in a long term plan. People just tend to want everything yesterday, nowadays.

[Dragazer]

5 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I remember when everyone spammed Mesa. Her rework came about, there was a bunch of raging on forums, and then the masses went on to the next best thing while true Mesa fans realised that it wasn't that bad and stuck with her.

Same thing will happen with Ash. 

Mesa was terrible right after her LoS rework.

It wasn't until a few months later when DE gave her PeaceMaker secondary mod scaling that she was good.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Dragazer

[Dragazer]

1 minute ago, Zanchak said:

Doesn't mean it won't be in future, or isn't in a long term plan. People just tend to want everything yesterday, nowadays.

I would have honestly agreed with you as well but...:

On 19/07/2016 at 5:35 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Thank you for all of your feedback! After reviewing your feedback we’re happy to read that most of you feel Excalibur has returned to his former glory as a swordsman. With damage falloff linked to distance traveled, Exalted Blade now encourages up and close encounters with the enemy. 

We appreciate you testing him after his abilities have been tweaked and sharing your thoughts with the devs! 

After 21 pages of feedback they act like we were all happy about the changes made.

[Zanchak]

1 minute ago, Dragazer said:

I would have honestly agreed with you as well but...:

 

After 21 pages of feedback they act like we were all happy about the changes made.

Sad but true, I don't expect much from Ash's, which is why I just did personal feedback rather than suggestions. My "suggestion" would be simple, roll him back. lol

[Xaentrick]

After playing with the changes a bit I habe vine to the following conclusions. 

Shuriken: all it hit was an update in sound do it no longer sounds like nyx's psychic bolts. So not much to say here.

Smoke screen: it got some lovely changes that work wonders with ash and his mobility. All around these changes are lovely and were much needed.

Teleport: eh not much to say here as just a few more jump points were basically added. 

Bladestorm: when they were first going to change it they said they wanted to get rid o if the one button win mentality. They stated that it would be more interactive after the change. My big problem with the change is not that it nerfed or buffed ash. The big problem I habe is how nothing they wanted to do was achieved. It is still a one button win for the most part and while slightly more interactive. All they did was make it so a person activates it and then sweeps there reticle a few times. 

Some of the changes ate lively and were much needed to update the frame while others could have been better.  Bladestorm could have had so many other things done to it. The community has provided countless ideas that could have been looked into. I will agree a lot of those ideas are overpowered but they could have taken ideas. Instead this just seems like something with not much thought put into it.

[Hypernaut1]

39 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

I would have honestly agreed with you as well but...:

 

After 21 pages of feedback they act like we were all happy about the changes made.

I think they sift through the hate and knee jerk and seek out genuine feedback.

More than half of the opinions on a feedback thread are just people reacting emotionally without truly trying the rework. I was guilty of this too with Mag. 

[swift4ace]

Just random Idea for additional add-ons to he's most recent bladestorm rework.

I feel like this could separate ASH from LOKI and IVARA and actually give those people that say "there is no point
in taking ash since they(ivara,loki) do the JOB better."

Sorry about spelling/grammar, typing this on my phone. Some details are left out, tried to include the general
mechanics.

 

BLADE STORM
1st activation - Ash eneters Blade Storm targeting mode, allowing ash
to see through obsticles such as walls, doors, or barriers,
this allows ash to mark targets for execution even through
locked doors(he's clones serve as extra pair of eyes(theme).  see through walls was mentioned by
few people I played with and also came up in some youtube video I watched recently)

- Ability to detect through obsticles is limited to area around the cursor(recticle)
That means detected enemies are also applied with mark for bladestorm( go hand in hand ).
-Enemies can be seen through absticles as long as bladestorm mark is active.
-Teleporting(3) to enemies effected by ash's clones returns ash to standard bladestom animation.

 

2nd Activation. Standard Blade storm animation.

 

3rd activation. Cancels animation and leaves the 2 clones to continue
attacking and PARALYZING marked targets. Clones damage is drastically reduced but
still contribute to ash's combo counter, as well as paralyzing enemies. Basically
blade storm would have 2 forms, with ash (standard bladestorm) without (clones)

 

-(Paralyzed enemies can not detect ash or allied tenno, and are open to finishers (IF) ash is not
peforming bladestorm animation.)

 

-(IF ash OR allied tenno perform finisher on market target, mark will be
canceled and energy refunded.) Put a cool smoke effect showing clones dissapate
into black mist on finishers)(since ash comes with v aura polarity he doesn't have ability to just
trade it for energy siphon. Allowing ash to refund energy applies to he's own finisher with (E) not teleport, since it
will return ash to bladestorm animation.

 

- If ash leaves the clones to attack on their own, clones will deal less damage
and stay active for limited duration before dissapating. duration of clones
can be increased with power duration. Power strength increases strength of clones damage as well
as standard bladestorm as always.

-Standard bladestorm would not scale with power duration, PARALYZE effect in standard ash (4) is active till ashe
kills enemy.)

- Clones contribute to combo counter ( reduced to 2/3 since ash is not a part of it )
- Ash and he's clones inherit invisibility if ash enters bladestorm under the effect of
Smoke screen( no huras, ghost sentinel, or shadow step ). This allows for
silent assasination without detection. clones invisibility will be active for the entire duration of
bladestorm as long as it was activated priot to 2nd bladestorm activation.

(ASH WILL RETURN TO CASTING LOCATION ON 3rd bladestorm activation or
AFTER (STANDARD BLADESTORM ENDS)

 

TELEPORT (mostly unchanged Unless ash is in bladestorm selection mode, and casting it on enemies under the effect of he's clones)
If ash uses teleport under the effect of 1st activation of bladestorm on enemies already being attacked by clones, he will
enter standard bladestorm animation and return to casting location after marked enemies are dead. Basically
(ash can't teleport through obsticale) and gain acces to locked areas. So hacking the
door to get to console is still required, but ash could effectivly spot enemies in the locked
rooms and kill them without being detected).

 

SHURIKEN ( Unchanged )
Launches a spinning blade of pain dealing high
damage and impaling enemies to walls.

SMOKE SCREEN ( COULD REMOVE STUN IF BLADESTORM CROWD COTROL IS EFFECTIVE )
Drops a smoke bomb that stuns emeies and abscures their vision rendering ash invisible
for a short time.

 

[dodyouserious]

Please DE give ash a real rework not a ninja nerf, take some great ideas on these forums do not leave him like this

[Soridian]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I was guilty of this too with Mag. 

*Triggered*

I still have qualms with how mag was handled, i shall stop there before I write essays about mag In an ash thread lol.

 

in regards to the ash rework....I generally quite like it. I feel like shuriken needs some TLC with say auto headshot tracking if possible (for the dmg multiplier) and say an additional shuriken based off power strength.

Bladestorm's animation could do with some tweaks as it can still be very awkward and headache-y to follow, and I'd  also like fatal teleport augment looked at as its still a lil buggy where sometimes it doesn't trigger the finisher on teleport and on the flip side if you don't have a weapon equipped it still sometimes plays an animation but without any damage. 

My overall opinion for the ash rework is that though he might not be as powerful as before, he's more engaging, and more importantly, fun to play.

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Soridian

[swift4ace]

Just random Idea for additional add-ons to he's most recent bladestorm rework.

I feel like this could separate ASH from LOKI and IVARA and actually give those people that say "there is no point
in taking ash since they(ivara,loki) do the JOB better."

Sorry about spelling/grammar, typing this on my phone. Some details are left out, tried to include the general
mechanics.

 

BLADE STORM
1st activation - Ash eneters Blade Storm targeting mode, allowing ash
to see through obsticles such as walls, doors, or barriers,
this allows ash to mark targets for execution even through
locked doors. Lets say spy mission. see through walls was mentioned by
few people I played with and also came up in some youtube video I watched recently)

- Ability to detect through obsticles is limited to area around the cursor(recticle)
That means detected enemies are also applied with mark for bladestorm( go hand in hand ).
-Enemies can be seen through absticles as long as bladestorm mark is active.
-Teleporting to enemies effected by ash's clones returns ash to standard bladestom animation.

 

2nd Activation. Standard Blade storm animation.

 

3rd activation. Cancels animation and leaves the 2 clones to continue
attacking and PARALYZING marked targets. Clones damage is drastically reduced but
still contribute to ash's combo counter, as well as paralyzing enemies. Basically
blade storm would have 2 forms, with ash (standard bladestorm) without (clones)

-(Paralyzed enemies can not detect ash or allied tenno, and are open to finishers (IF) ash is not
peforming bladestorm animation.)

-(IF ash OR allied tenno perform finisher on market target, mark will be
canceled and energy refunded.) Put a cool smoke effect showing clones dissapate
into black mist on finishers)(since ash comes with v aura polarity he doesn't have ability to just
trade it for energy siphon. Allowing ash to refund energy applies to he's own finisher with (E) not teleport, since it
will return ash to bladestorm animation.

- If ash leaves the clones to attack on their own, clones will deal less damage
and stay active for limited duration before dissapating. duration of clones
can be increased with power duration. Power strength increases strength of clones damage as well
as standard bladestorm as always.

-Standard bladestorm would not scale with power duration, PARALYZE effect in standard ash (4) is active till ashe
kills enemy.)

- Clones contribute to combo counter ( reduced to 2/3 since ash is not a part of it )
- Ash and he's clones inherit invisibility if ash enters bladestorm under the effect of
Smoke screen( no huras, ghost sentinel, or shadow step ). This allows for
silent assasination without detection. Ivisibility will be active for the entire duration of
bladestorm as long as it was activated priot to 2nd bladestorm activation.

(ASH WILL RETURN TO CASTING LOCATION ON 3rd bladestorm activation or
AFTER (STANDARD BLADESTORM ENDS)

TELEPORT (mostly unchanged Unless ash is in bladestorm selection mode, and casting it on enemies under the effect of he's clones)
If ash uses teleport under the effect of 1st activation of bladestorm, he will
enter standard bladestorm animation and return to casting location after marked enemies are dead. Basically
(ash can't teleport through obsticale) and gain acces to locked areas. So hacking the
door to get to console is still required, but ash could effectivly spot enemies in the locked
rooms and kill them without being detected).

 

SHURIKEN ( Unchanged )
Launches a spinning blade of pain dealing high
damage and impaling enemies to walls.

SMOKE SCREEN ( COULD REMOVE STUN IF BLADESTORM CROWD COTROL IS EFFECTIVE )
Drops a smoke bomb that stuns emeies and abscures their vision rendering ash invisible
for a short time.