Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Lightwire]

4 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

 

Also I started this thread back in September that got the attention of some devs and community moderators. There were some brilliant reworks, still are. Did the devs use any of them? NO! INSTEAD they came into our orbiter and smeered peanut butter all over our $90 choclate donut(for some)  lol Again this BS rework is not what the community ask for, WE DO NOT WANT IT.

Change affects us all. Whether you asked for it or not, they've gone through extensive trials to find a good fit for it and they believe they've found it.

A lot of people really like the changes, so for you to assume "we, the community" didn't want this is an assumption based upon your personal feelings (and quite possibly those of some of your friends who feel the same way). 

Many people don't like it. Many people do like it. This game is constantly changing and they did state everything is subject to change. We just have to take the changes and learn to master them. Pure and simple. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

22 minutes ago, Lightwire said:

they've gone through extensive trials to find a good fit for it

The change only effects Ash users. ALOT LIKE THIS BS REWORK, who? 

95% of this thread does not like this BS change, thats IS the majority, period. That is NOT a assumption.

However "they've gone through EXTENSIVE trials" is absolutely a assumption. This rework just proves they dont understand thier own game or there is a lack of leadership somewhere in the chain of command. 

(I already have mastered it, with a naromon, maiming strike, arcane trickery build for it..but that is not the point. )

Edited December 3, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[UrielColtan]

On 12/2/2016 at 11:58 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

One myth that I keep seeing repeated is that BS doesn't kill multiple targets faster than weapons. It's not true, not even for higher level enemies. BS is still rather good at thinning crowds. In yesterday's curious survival sortie 3 , BS was definitely a huge help. Neither fatal teleport nor just weapons (except maybe tonkor) would have been as useful. BS was good at targeting multiple drones from a safe perch, cutting down on death orb spam and returning to a safer spot. I was able to enter BS mode, shoot down bubbles while marking and then quickly kill targets. 

Two pros of new rework

1. I was able to escape and go invisible mid air, or use ss while jumping towards a teammate to revive. Using ss in air was valuable to returning to my perch quickly and safely to rain down BS.

2. I was able to help kill enemies surrounding teammates in two areas. The top of platform near life support and on a lower landing. All while targeting drones and popping bubbles. New BS is able to cover a wider area. Not saying it's better, but definitely not completely useless. It has a few perks. I rarely used fatal teleport because BS always put me back into my safe spot, which is very important when the enemy spams nullifiers and death orbs. So yes, there are clear and good reason why I wouldn't use FT instead.

My play style definitely changed with the rework though. I was more of a "kill from the shadows" player than trying to get in the thick of things with old BS as my panic button. I definitely utilized SS more. Not just to mark targets, but also because I was able to use the ability on the move, which made it far more convenient.

For a frame that people claim is useless in a team, i was sure reviving them a lot and being depended on to activate LS. I don't buy that Ash isn't helpful in a team at all.

I do believe that arcane trickery is near essential for a successful build. Triggering it during BS is often a lifesaver. So much so, I think that some form of post BS invisibility or enemy accuracy debuff is a necessary tweak. 

 

Ash isn't useless now, and in some ways I prefer working for those kills. I still love the cut scene.

Bladestorm attacks enemies one by one, even less of an amount than with the old BS. Another thing, even if you mark more enemies, BS is buggy and doesn't retain every mark upon activation of BS, when it does retain marks, it takes forever. So either you are wasting time marking things that don't even get hit, or you are waiting forever for Ash to take things out when he does attack them. Wasting time in any scenario.

 

On 12/2/2016 at 11:58 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

One myth that I keep seeing repeated is that BS doesn't kill multiple targets faster than weapons. It's not true, not even for higher level enemies. BS is still rather good at thinning crowds. In yesterday's curious survival sortie 3 , BS was definitely a huge help. Neither fatal teleport nor just weapons (except maybe tonkor) would have been as useful. BS was good at targeting multiple drones from a safe perch, cutting down on death orb spam and returning to a safer spot. I was able to enter BS mode, shoot down bubbles while marking and then quickly kill targets. 

Two pros of new rework

1. I was able to escape and go invisible mid air, or use ss while jumping towards a teammate to revive. Using ss in air was valuable to returning to my perch quickly and safely to rain down BS.

2. I was able to help kill enemies surrounding teammates in two areas. The top of platform near life support and on a lower landing. All while targeting drones and popping bubbles. New BS is able to cover a wider area. Not saying it's better, but definitely not completely useless. It has a few perks. I rarely used fatal teleport because BS always put me back into my safe spot, which is very important when the enemy spams nullifiers and death orbs. So yes, there are clear and good reason why I wouldn't use FT instead.

My play style definitely changed with the rework though. I was more of a "kill from the shadows" player than trying to get in the thick of things with old BS as my panic button. I definitely utilized SS more. Not just to mark targets, but also because I was able to use the ability on the move, which made it far more convenient.

For a frame that people claim is useless in a team, i was sure reviving them a lot and being depended on to activate LS. I don't buy that Ash isn't helpful in a team at all.

I do believe that arcane trickery is near essential for a successful build. Triggering it during BS is often a lifesaver. So much so, I think that some form of post BS invisibility or enemy accuracy debuff is a necessary tweak. 

 

Ash isn't useless now, and in some ways I prefer working for those kills. I still love the cut scene.

Oh he can hit things, when other team-mates are occupied with other things or knocked out the ground of course.

Even with that opportunity, Ash barely kills anything with that reworked Bladestorm. I guess that's why you have to say "helped kill" instead of actually "killed".

Arcane trickery is a must for Ash you say? In other words, he himself is so hindered, that he is obligated to use this outside item now.

Your reviving of team-mates is an accessibility that comes from being invisible, a feature that was not made worse than it already is and something other frames can do better or also by way of the arcane, though not many people have it, which is probably why I was also having to revive Ash as well during that mission, because his Smokescreen is so short on top of him being squishy.

Teleport/Fatal Teleport benefits from arcane trickery too though, which is a shorter move and gives stealth multipliers. Who needs to waste time shooting down bubbles when you can take advantage of the Arcane Trickery by just running into the bubbles and killing the nullifier crewman causing them without worrying about becoming uncloaked?

Less reviving would probably need to be done with a disarming Loki or Cloaking and Sleep Arrow Ivara, both of which can also turn invisible longer, latter of whom can also easily take advantage of the arcane trickery too if necessary.

I simply can't agree that no weapon would do better than reworked Blase'storm, which does less damage than before and kills enemies one at a time within the slideshow, if even strong enough to put an enemy down, so it can't actually kill multiple enemies faster than just aiming and shooting a firearm honestly. 

I certainly can't get behind loving a slideshow playing the game for me either, especially when you have to use it more times than before for it to be of much use, increasing the intervals of non-interactivity more than ever. That's what I wanted them to get rid of when they talked about making the move interactive,  These same repetetive slideshows have been around for long enough, they have lost what little first impression novelty they had, i want to actually play the game. I think some changes are in order for the likes of Mesa's 4 and Banshee's 4 freezing them in place too. That stuff needs to go.

Edited December 3, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Lightwire]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

The change only effects Ash users. ALOT LIKE THIS BS REWORK, who? 

95% of this thread does not like this BS change, thats IS the majority, period. That is NOT a assumption.

However "they've gone through EXTENSIVE trials" is absolutely a assumption. This rework just proves they dont understand thier own game or there is a lack of leadership somewhere in the chain of command. 

(I already have mastered it, with a naromon, maiming strike, arcane trickery build for it..but that is not the point. )

It's not an assumption. To my knowledge they've informed us through several Devstreams that they've been working on it for quite a while.

Whether that is true or not, yes, is definitely up to question because all we have to go on is their word.

I'd like to think they do understand their game. Their aim was to get Ash users more involved in playing Ash, to use his abilities more during the application of bladestorm and make him more interactive instead of just "press 4. watch a cutscene". I personally think they did well in that regard. The rest? I'm sure they'll listen to the people who are frustrated with the build and tweak it a bit more. 

They've made plenty of changes based on user feedback. So we'll see what happens.

[UrielColtan]

You think they did well in that regard when you still have to watch a cutscene, even more so than ever for the ability to even matter?  Seems the aim will have been to merely nerf Bladestorm while not actually fixing the non interactive part, and barely buffing his other abilities or stats, if it stays like this. They have been talking about reworking Bladestorm for a while sure, to be more interactive, because people liked more of an idea of interactivity, like with Excalibur's exalted, which they brought up the first time they mentioned a possible rework for Ash. Many people who play Ash, like myself, were ecstatic about a possible exalted Ash replacing the cutscenes.

 It isn't interactive though, it just takes a prompt period prior to activation, and its weaker, slower, and you will be needing to jump into cutscenes even more for it to have much effect at all, otherwise you might as well be using Fatal Teleport instead of Blase'Storm.

22 hours ago, THegolo123 said:

His blade storm is good as it stands. People ignore his 8 x dmg multipler while invis but don't care about dont they.

 

Its non interactive and subsequently boring.

8 x damage, 8 x energy waste for a weaker Bladestorm more like. An 8 x dmg multiplier would put Bladestorm up there with stealth damage, but sorry to say, it does not actually do that. Unless I am also just consistently getting bugs, tests in the simulacrum and actual missions conveyed no actual change in damage when using Bladestorm with Smokescreen.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by UrielColtan

[DatDarkOne]

39 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

95% of this thread does not like this BS change, thats IS the majority, period. That is NOT a assumption.

This can be considered an assumption once you realize that those on the forums do not represent all who play.  It only represents the vocal ones who use this specific forum. 

[Awazx]

41 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

 This rework just proves they dont understand thier own game or there is a lack of leadership somewhere in the chain of command. 

 

[Yazeth]

6 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

 Watching the animation not kill the ancient..thats my point..even "IF" i "mark" it 3 TIMES..the old way it still killed the ancient and still just as annoying either way,  the old way was still faster and thats not up for debate. Its not on par with any other 4 period...Steve said they wanted to get rid of the screen poping...this BS rework does not belong in this game.

Again, Im arguing about the animation ending quicker. Not once did I say that you can kill an Ancient faster or as fast with the new BS. You certainly could with the old BS but it would have taken 15+ hits to do so at higher levels. The new BS definitely won't kill it in 3 hits, but because it only hits 3 times max it's not gonna get butt-raped as long, so you or your team can kill it with weapons instead.

Also, I never said anything about the new BS being good. As an Ash main, I don't like it either. I just notice that there's a bit more to the rework than just adding a targeting system to it.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

46 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This can be considered an assumption once you realize that those on the forums do not represent all who play.  It only represents the vocal ones who use this specific forum. 

"of this thread"= not a assumption 

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

"of this thread"= not a assumption 

Fair enough.  I concede fellow Tenno.  I did miss that defining point.  :D

[Hypernaut1]

I did FINE in today sorties with Ash, even getting the most kills in the exterminate. Ash is not that bad off. The more i get used to it, the better it feels. He is still a very effective killer. Sure, old BS could nuke a radius with ease, but with the new BS i was able to mark enemies at various ranges, complimenting my normal play.

IMO, fatal teleport and BS work together greatly. FT for when i want to advance on the enemy and BS when i need to return to my safe spot. I keep BS up at all times. Instead of just being a nuke, it complements my overall playstyle now. With BS active, I can sweep a room, kill a few with my primary, fatal teleport into an eximus, then unleash BS to clean up. Its a good rhythm in my opinion and makes Ash more fun to play. I think its a cool rework. i can deal with the loss in nuke power, i do find BS more fun now. I was totally against the rework before, if anyone cared to check my post history- but this is definitely not as bad as i feared. 

I had a full team during the exterminate and NO, they werent easily killing every enemy before i got to them. Its exaggerated. Ash still gets his with BS. Marking happens fast enough that i can get at least 1/3 of kills when a gate opens and there is a mob of enemies. (exception Tonkor of course). This particular Grineer stage had a section with a bunch of platforms and ramps with no clear LoS to all enemies. I was able to SS, run around wildly marking enemies and finishing many of them off before my team was able to find all. One time i had enemies marked, revived an Ash (irony), then unleashed my BS on the still marked enemies without even facing them. THAT is cool, and feels very ninja like.

again, the changes i mainly want is faster animation speed and 1 sec invulnerability after BS, or make enemies lose their target/lower accuracy on Ash when he exits. It doesnt feel fair when youre eating bullets after the cut scene before you even regain control and cant do anything about it. After such a flurry, enemies should have no idea where Ash is going to end up. Another tweak i want is a clear UI indicator when BS is active. Sometimes the shader and dark smoke is hard to notice, especially when it gets hectic,

tip for people that actually want to give it a chance- keep BS active at all times unless you have a tactical reason not to. 

[DatDarkOne]

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I did FINE in today sorties with Ash, even getting the most kills in the exterminate. Ash is not that bad off. The more i get used to it, the better it feels. He is still a very effective killer. Sure, old BS could nuke a radius with ease, but with the new BS i was able to mark enemies at various ranges, complimenting my normal play.

IMO, fatal teleport and BS work together greatly. FT for when i want to advance on the enemy and BS when i need to return to my safe spot. I keep BS up at all times. Instead of just being a nuke, it complements my overall playstyle now. With BS active, I can sweep a room, kill a few with my primary, fatal teleport into an eximus, then unleash BS to clean up. Its a good rhythm in my opinion and makes Ash more fun to play. I think its a cool rework. i can deal with the loss in nuke power, i do find BS more fun now. I was totally against the rework before, if anyone cared to check my post history- but this is definitely not as bad as i feared. 

I had a full team during the exterminate and NO, they werent easily killing every enemy before i got to them. Its exaggerated. Ash still gets his with BS. Marking happens fast enough that i can get at least 1/3 of kills when a gate opens and there is a mob of enemies. (exception Tonkor of course). This particular Grineer stage had a section with a bunch of platforms and ramps with no clear LoS to all enemies. I was able to SS, run around wildly marking enemies and finishing many of them off before my team was able to find all. One time i had enemies marked, revived an Ash (irony), then unleashed my BS on the still marked enemies without even facing them. THAT is cool, and feels very ninja like.

again, the changes i mainly want is faster animation speed and 1 sec invulnerability after BS, or make enemies lose their target/lower accuracy on Ash when he exits. It doesnt feel fair when youre eating bullets after the cut scene before you even regain control and cant do anything about it. After such a flurry, enemies should have no idea where Ash is going to end up. Another tweak i want is a clear UI indicator when BS is active. Sometimes the shader and dark smoke is hard to notice, especially when it gets hectic,

tip for people that actually want to give it a chance- keep BS active at all times unless you have a tactical reason not to. 

This is the same experience I had.  I also kept BS active the whole time.  I posted my experiences with it also on page 54.  :D

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Some of you guys just don`t get it. The people that don`t like Ash`s bs are not talking about using it in sorties, they are talking about using it in regular missions. Yes obviously Ash will be effective in the sorties because enemies are harder to kill, so he will get kills but you`re not playing the whole sorties five times a day but focus farming, syndicates missions, traces farming is what you’re doing most of the time you`re playing. I put a focus lens on Ash, but now because of the rework I won`t get as much focus from him. If I could play every mission by myself and get the same amount of focus/xp as when you have four people playing by myself, I would.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

40 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I did FINE in today sorties with Ash, even getting the most kills in the exterminate. Ash is not that bad off. The more i get used to it, the better it feels. He is still a very effective killer. Sure, old BS could nuke a radius with ease, but with the new BS i was able to mark enemies at various ranges, complimenting my normal play.

IMO, fatal teleport and BS work together greatly. FT for when i want to advance on the enemy and BS when i need to return to my safe spot. I keep BS up at all times. Instead of just being a nuke, it complements my overall playstyle now. With BS active, I can sweep a room, kill a few with my primary, fatal teleport into an eximus, then unleash BS to clean up. Its a good rhythm in my opinion and makes Ash more fun to play. I think its a cool rework. i can deal with the loss in nuke power, i do find BS more fun now. I was totally against the rework before, if anyone cared to check my post history- but this is definitely not as bad as i feared. 

I had a full team during the exterminate and NO, they werent easily killing every enemy before i got to them. Its exaggerated. Ash still gets his with BS. Marking happens fast enough that i can get at least 1/3 of kills when a gate opens and there is a mob of enemies. (exception Tonkor of course). This particular Grineer stage had a section with a bunch of platforms and ramps with no clear LoS to all enemies. I was able to SS, run around wildly marking enemies and finishing many of them off before my team was able to find all. One time i had enemies marked, revived an Ash (irony), then unleashed my BS on the still marked enemies without even facing them. THAT is cool, and feels very ninja like.

again, the changes i mainly want is faster animation speed and 1 sec invulnerability after BS, or make enemies lose their target/lower accuracy on Ash when he exits. It doesnt feel fair when youre eating bullets after the cut scene before you even regain control and cant do anything about it. After such a flurry, enemies should have no idea where Ash is going to end up. Another tweak i want is a clear UI indicator when BS is active. Sometimes the shader and dark smoke is hard to notice, especially when it gets hectic,

tip for people that actually want to give it a chance- keep BS active at all times unless you have a tactical reason not to. 

post your build for your melee and ash setup? also other frames that were there? and type of sortie? ...I could cheese it all day long with telos boltice maim strike naromon build and do well also with the new rework ....Your sortie experience doesn't prove it wasnt a bad BS rework...although i understand your optimism. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Some of you guys just don`t get it. The people that don`t like Ash`s bs are not talking about using it in sorties, they are talking about using it in regular missions. Yes obviously Ash will be effective in the sorties because enemies are harder to kill, so he will get kills but you`re not playing the whole sorties five times a day but focus farming, syndicates missions, traces farming is what you’re doing most of the time you`re playing. I put a focus lens on Ash, but now because of the rework I won`t get as much focus from him. If I could play every mission by myself and get the same amount of focus/xp as when you have four people playing by myself, I would.

Please check my post on the proceeding page.  I gave my experiences playing regular missions with a group while using a controller.  It addresses what you just mentioned in your post.  I hope it helps as that was my intention when posting it.  Here's the direct link. 

 

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

post your build for your melee and ash setup? also other frames that were there? and type of sortie? ...I could cheese it all day long with telos boltice maim strike naromon build and do well also with the new rework ....Your sortie experience doesn't prove it wasnt a bad BS rework...although i understand your optimism. 

What's your point? I could say the same about people that don't do well with Ash. I could assume that people doing terrible aren't even trying to play effectively.  if you read my post, I clearly detail where BS was relevant. I wasn't out to spam BS to prove its a broken ability that can cruise through a sortie. I played within the flow of the game.

There's nothing special about my build anyway. I have max efficiency and fatal teleport. I was using a nikana for style, though i want to try a fast melee to see if it improves BS animation speed. I also have a maxed arcane trickery syandana. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[kageshi1]

...YOU MARK THE ENEMIES, YET?

 

no, seriously make the cone larger... you just made motion sickiness from the old BS and dialed it to 11. The fact that motion blur just makes things worse when marking alot of enemies, the added fact that throwing your mouse across the table is an added addition to using BS is BS

Edited December 4, 2016 by kageshi1
more BS

[kageshi1]

Trolling user says: "But dont shake the mouse so much or disable motion blur."

Boy, I will slap you. 

I will find you

and i will slap you.

[Cray]

"Wiggle wiggle wiggle..."

 

The challenge is how do you have wide-area targeting while still allowing pinpoint targeting.

[kageshi1]

Just now, DeltaPhantom said:

"Wiggle wiggle wiggle..."

 

The challenge is how do you have wide-area targeting while still allowing pinpoint targeting.

interesting, maybe a mod? or the ability to stop your ability mid attack.

[Cray]

Just now, kageshi1 said:

ability to stop your ability mid attack.

Target order becomes a problem in that setup.

[kageshi1]

This is what it feels like to use ashes blade storm (marking)

 

Should just make BS toggle, for wide area(larger cone) and pin point (same as it is already) and Togggle it like ivara and vauban abilities

Edited December 4, 2016 by kageshi1
more insite

[kageshi1]

Just now, DeltaPhantom said:

Target order becomes a problem in that setup.

The other thing is to use teleport with finisher dmg mod. killing one enemy at a time. 

[SevenLetterKWord]

4 minutes ago, DeltaPhantom said:

The challenge is how do you have wide-area targeting while still allowing pinpoint targeting.

Toggle pinpoint with RMB.

[kageshi1]

Just now, SevenLetterKWord said:

Toggle pinpoint with RMB.

Actually yeah, if BS had a toggle, for wide angle or pinpoint that would fix somethings