Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[raziel16985]

48 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

^Nah, its not the right direction until the automation is gone, and few are divided by Exalted Blade, most people like that concept as Excalibur's new ult.

 

 

 

 

i forgot to mention the "right direction" was pointed at the smoke screen changes, sry ^^

 

and perhaps i got the wrong picture off Exalted Blade, it was just what i catched up on some few people ^^  but im glad the majority likes it then :D

[minidelight]

14 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Because the current marking system doesn't work in the co-op side of the game when playing with other players with powerful weapons and frames..... Also most people didn't want interactivity to be marking the targets they wanted interactivity in as much as not being locked into the animation sequence, something that is still a problem.  

You make out that the current rework has actually made bladestorm better, it may be ok for you in solo missions but it's completely pointless for most of us in missions with other players... it has stupidly high energy requirements, higher than pretty much any other frame (banshee might be higher with resonating soundquake) and the time it takes to mark targets (not to mention the motion sickness side of things for some people) means it's quicker in most cases to just shoot them or melee them assuming you've actually got any targets left...  whats the point in an ultimate ability that can't be used or is slower than actually just shooting them.   Note I've been on BOTH sides of this, I've played ash and had ALL my targets killed in the time it took to mark half a dozen targets and I've taken targets away from ash so they had no targets to attack... this was not a low level either. 

The simple fact about this game is that it isn't designed to allow the time to do slow action abilities like marking things first when in a team, it requires an element of auto targetting, even mesa's peacemaker rework has an element of auto targetting involved. 

yep, ash is now a solo frame, i would never ask for a ash in my group. Any group with good players+proper modded weapons would kill  marked targets faster, when im with a ash player on my group who  tries to use that half baked marking system, i always laugh when he cant even press 4 again to launch BS, because everything is dead already(sorties lv+++). the only thing ash had for it for group play was a fire and forget nuke, and thats gone.

i still think the old BS was crap anyway, but at least it would do the job it was meant to do.

Now what we got is 4 that doesnt kill anything faster compared to other frames/weapons, and its still clunky has fk when marking, plus the long crap cinematics  when you manage to mark more than 10 targets +huge energy requirements to kill anything lv100+

Some people are clearly delusional when trying to defend the bladestorm rework.

Edited December 12, 2016 by minidelight

[GTX49]

I just cant make any logical reason behind this new rework.. Why add something slow as this in a fast paced game? Didn't they think that Ash would have to stand in open fire to mark targets, like a bomber lvl 100 in high end mission which one missile of them can get you killed instantly? Why would i even bother using such a slow ability if i can get the same effect and even better using normal weapons? What about the teamplay aspect?.. By the time Ash finishes marking targets, his squad mates would have obliterated everything that moves. This even makes me wanna play solo with Ash even more.

This whole rework was the opposite of everything DE has said, and i'm frankly confused about how this rework came to be and was approved.

The best rework in my opinion would be giving him Exalted hidden blades that synergies with his other 3 abilities; Ash's bladestorm wants him to go on a "rampage" and rampage is what he will get in this following rework concept;

- Launching his Ult allows him to use his hidden blades with a newly stance dealing slash damage. (Scales according to his Mele mods)

- While in his ult mode his 3 previous skills synergies to this;

1- Shuriken >> In his ult mode, Ash sends 4 Shurikens instead of 2 that hits 4 enemies but dealing half the damage the normal 2 shurikens do. The enemies that didn't die from the shurikens gets marked and highlighted with red. Highlighted enemies will be attacked by 2 of Ash's clones, if the player desires so.

2- Smoke Screen >> In his ult mode, Ash turns into a smoke that dashes through enemies in a distance of 5 meters or so while stunning them for 1 seconds. (the distance isn't affected by range mods)

3- Teleport >> In his ult mode, Ash sends 2 clones to attack 4 enemies, who were marked by the shurikens, dealing finisher damage and using the old bladestorm animations.

 

With this Ash can literally go on a rampage and being the offensive edgy frame he is.

[UrielColtan]

On 12/9/2016 at 5:49 PM, Biter. said:

Saryn's Rework:

Nov 5th 2015

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/556384-update-17100/

Nov 9th 2015

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/558838-hotfix-17102-17103/

Took 4 days to give her major changes post rework.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

If they felt like making changes to Ash they would have done it by now. Sorry way to treat one of the original 8 warframes. Didn't even get rid of Movie-mode which was what everyone wanted in the first place.

Just more reason to keep reminding DE.

[UrielColtan]

On 12/9/2016 at 6:09 PM, Excalibur said:

Ash's rework was a step in the right direction. Bladestorm was 'press 4 to watch cinematic'. It needs two tweaks, TWO, and it'll be in the perfect spot.

1) Ash sends out his clones to Bladestorm for him, allowing him to continue the fight.

2) Shuriken marks targets for future Bladestorming.

 

There. Now he's less boring and his 1 synergizes better.

I'd rather this not happen, that would entail basically making shuriken do practically no damage or bleed ticks so as to accommodate this, IE, less damage than it already does. The marking is unappealing anyway, as is letting clones do all the work, like Rumblers or Shadows of the Undead. Wouldn't necessarily be faster either what with just marking two enemies at a time, and potentially missing shots due to shurikens' inability to ignore line of sight obstructions if they are in the way. An Exalted/Hysteria like state like what I pointed out in prior posts would be more desirable and actually interactive. Ash's two clones can be supplementary to it but that should be it.

Edited December 12, 2016 by UrielColtan

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, GTX49 said:

This whole rework was the opposite of everything DE has said, and i'm frankly confused about how this rework came to be and was approved.

During devstreams it really sounds like just one person directs the rework in a dev build scenario so it's entirely possible they're testing as a solo player where bladestorm does work reasonably ok albeit slower to launch, technically weaker at higher levels, and higher energy cost.  If they don't test it in a team scenario with a team loaded with high level weapons etc they might not get to see just how useless bladestorm becomes...

[Jackviator]

I like everything but the Bladestorm idea. The main thing a lot of people wanted to change with BS was feeling like you can't do anything while the ability is playing the animations, and while DE did make it more interactive by allowing you to select high-priority targets, and boosted its damage to compensate for the new energy costs, they failed when it came to removing the motion-sickness inducing shaky-cam animations, so players still felt helpless while the ability was active.

With the proposal in the OP, it both removes the interactive targeting and makes the player completely helpless to do anything but watch while the clones do all the work. Sure, you can move at half speed, but that's not enough IMO.

What I feel might be a better alternative is to keep the targeting system, as it allows you to choose what targets you want to attack, but also introduce the OP's "slow but invincible cloud of smoke" idea while in targeting mode, allowing you to target enemies without fear of attack. The smoke would dissipate 1.5 seconds after you send out the clones so you have at least a brief period to get into a better position.

To prevent the potential for AFKers to abuse the invincibility that the smoke offers, players will be locked into the ability once it is activated (not able to toggle it off/send out clones until they target at least 1 enemy) and would only have 8-10 seconds to target the enemies they want to, or the ability is cancelled, and 25 energy is removed from the player in question, so as to deter just using this ability to move about the battlefield unhindered by enemy fire.

Also, instead of Ash getting involved, he just sends out his clones. Sure he loses the invincility, but he can move about the battlefield and attack, giving players the control they wanted.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

Now that the consoles have the Ash rework, and I've spent the whole weekend playing I can say I'm happy with the rework, ecstatic even (coming from a main Ash player). Gorgeous Deluxe skin btw.

I always built for a Teleport build so I didn't even have to tweak anything when the rework came to make it functional.

• My shuriken seems to be faster and more accurate (though I didn't see that change in the patch notes so maybe I'm just crazy).
• Smokescreen is amazingly more effective in high level or fast-paced missions. Being able to use it on the move and in the air is, to me, the best upgrade he received thanks to it being less likely to get you killed in an emergency.
• I'm loving the Teleport change. I already use Animal Instinct on all my companions so now it acts as a radar for all of my teleport waypoints, both enemies and containers.
• I rarely used the previous Bladestorm incarnation, despite it being a vast improvement over our old solo-Ash doing slash damage. The problem(s) for me being that it was forcibly a set number of targets (18 i think) and when you only needed to take out a few people you could end up being stuck in a teleport animation seemingly for the next 10 minutes while your team is all starting to bleedout. There was also the issue that it was boring to use before, not being interactive. Obviously it was an easily spammable move so people exploiting that would just sit back and relax, only occasionally reactivating the power while their Frame would bounce around the screen killing everything in range. 
  • Since the new rework I've actually been using Bladestorm more consistently, on par with the rest of my abilities. It's very fast to target. You can mark which few, or many, enemies to kill. I particularly love this option because sometimes you have an emergency and need to blow your energy to help thing out the whole room, while more commonly I can hold my ground in one area and mark a couple priority targets like a Heavy Gunner Eximus off to one side to take out before they get close enough to start draining our energy and return to my starting point to continue my fight. You can choose how many times to target them, which is great in the case of Ancients for example. I can mark him a couple times to wear him down and choose to finish him off with my bow rather than be stuck stabbing him 12 times in a row. 

Overall, this rework has made my favorite frame more controlled and functional in things like Sorties and now Kuva Floods. It's made him less spammy and therefore less exploitable for the meta-gravitating masses. Most importantly I think it's made him more enjoyable to play. 

I don't disagree with some of the quality of life complaints about certain aspects of his Bladestorm, but I don't think a full rework is needed. The power is good. I wouldn't complain if you cap the number of targets that he personally Bladestorms though to fix some of those complaints. An example being that he will only Bladestorm the first strike of the first 1/3rd or 1/2 of targets marked (rather than the first strike of every single target) and let the clones do the strikes over their normal animation times to the rest of the targets. Using a percentage for that will still keep the players interactive more than before but keep the ability from being completely hands-off because the more targets you mark the more targets you'll personally be involved in, But it will make it less agonizing to bounce across the room all day stuck in animations. My suggested percentages may not work, but it's an idea to look into to start.

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by (PS4)Riko_113

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

5 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Shuriken just needs one tweak to make it good:
 Work off the Combo Counter, each shuriken adding one hit to it and getting the damage buff from it.

This is the only idea i really liked on this page.

I agree that Shuriken could use some synergistic tweaks, although people commonly fail to realize that it guarantees a bleed proc so it's amazing for killing of non-heavy units easily while just throwing it at them while you're on the run and not wasting time on them while moving to a priority target. Also amazing for taking out pesky shield drones. It only really sucks as much as almost every other 1st power.

Other than that a lot of the suggestions seem to be based off of comparisons to other frames. Ash's smokescreen also staggers all enemies around which helps your team, not just yourself, and unlike Loki is a completely viable frame while visible so he doesn't need 100% invisibility uptime.

I've never had an issue using his teleport, in fact my build is based around it and he's my primary frame. I do agree there are occasional quirks with enemy animations preventing them from opening to finishers.

The big thing a lot of people forget when asking to take Ash completely out of the equation for his involvement in Bladestorm is that he is doing Finisher damage (with all of his abilities), and massive amounts of it compared to Hydroid's and Trinity's finisher damage moves. His damage bypasses armor and shields so is not resisted by enemies like all other damage types in the game. Him being involved in some way and limiting his targets is what helps keep him somewhat balanced because he's not built to take out a room of 800 trash-enemies like most Frame's nukes. His kit is meant to focus on only the most durable targets in the game, and he does that exceptionally well. So just try to keep that in mind when trying to rework his abilities.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

If the "mark mode" is here to stay, which im guessing it is. Essentially DE doesn't need to get rid of the mark mode. Keep the mark mode, but instead of marking for "BS" mark for (throwing wrist blades) and give them puncture damage and guaranteed crit! Make it duration based that would synergies with his 2 and power and range would synergies with his 1 and 3. Make Blade Storm what it is...A BLADE STORM. 

Energy cost for his.1,2,3 stay the same and your 4 is duration based. I think it would be awesome in my opinion.

Edited December 12, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(XBOX)eibonMadness]

Really like your teleport idea. i think it would be great to have the optional invisibility, as many times my invis drops half way through the animation  

I think i would prefer blade storm stay relitively the same, but only ash's clones attack. Resulting in ash not being removed from the battle to watch the cinematics (or maybe show just it just once no matter the number of enemies marked).

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

During devstreams it really sounds like just one person directs the rework in a dev build scenario so it's entirely possible they're testing as a solo player where bladestorm does work reasonably ok albeit slower to launch, technically weaker at higher levels, and higher energy cost.  If they don't test it in a team scenario with a team loaded with high level weapons etc they might not get to see just how useless bladestorm becomes...

I wouldn't say useless in team scenarios, but I do see how some could view it this way.  I do agree that the rework does seem to favor solo play more than it previously did before the rework.  This isn't a problem IMO as I don't think that all frames need to be strictly team oriented.  Again, this is just my opinion and not a reflection of how others should feel. 

[HuzzelMuzzel]

On 6.12.2016 at 11:14 PM, NinjaZeku said:

Why can't we just remove the Ash teleport part and let the clones do 100% of it?

 

This would be wonderfull! Blade Strom is useless at the moment. Teleport and orthos prime or just a tonkor will kill all enemeys bevor BS has finished the first kill...

[Aktriaz]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Other than that a lot of the suggestions seem to be based off of comparisons to other frames. Ash's smokescreen also staggers all enemies around which helps your team, not just yourself, and unlike Loki is a completely viable frame while visible so he doesn't need 100% invisibility uptime.

The stagger is very brief, not recastable, and building for range kills his other abilities. An Orthos (or even Jat Kittag) has a longer stun time with basically the same range, with only taking slightly longer to cast. And it's spammable, to a degree. I have never in my 4+ years of playing warframe noticed any difference when someone casts Smoke Screen nearby. That stun is just too insignificant.

"Man, thanks Ash for stunning those 3 guys for 1 second. Really saved my hide."

Also, Loki is totally usable with no Invisibility. Max Power, Quick Thinking, Rage, Vitality, range+efficiency, spam Radial Disarm (and Irradiating disarm for discount Nyx). And that build has incredible team synergy.

Ash is only good at killing things. And when his powers no longer kill things, he becomes useless. I think every warframe should have it's own unique contribution to a team.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Actriaz

[(PSN)Derp43657]

A lot of people say that Ash should be more of a team player but I see him more of the lone assassin type of warframe. Bladestorm from the most current warframe update The War Within feels more like I am using fatal teleport because it carries some of the same mechanics like aim and teleport. I honestly believe that the developers should just give Ash his bladestorm before update because most updates on Ash feel more like nerfs or debuffs.

[Hans.Yulian]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Derp43657 said:

A lot of people say that Ash should be more of a team player but I see him more of the lone assassin type of warframe. Bladestorm from the most current warframe update The War Within feels more like I am using fatal teleport because it carries some of the same mechanics like aim and teleport. I honestly believe that the developers should just give Ash his bladestorm before update because most updates on Ash feel more like nerfs or debuffs.

The update doesn't worth to call as a "rework". The update is just a total nerf, direct nerf. If it's worth to call rework, you can see that there are many people still play ash, now i barely see any. So is this the thing that DE want? Making ash gone from the existence of the game? Just don't make Ash it from the first place then. 

 

To me, the change worth to be called as rework and success must follow these criteria:

1. People still use it, so if you see still almost the same amount of chance to see that warframe in public mission, then we can consider it as an ok.

2. Even if it's in different way, still the number of people play it should be the same or even increased.

3. The skill that being reworked should become something really different from the previous one, and have functionality. If the skill still the same, really similar, but worse and less powerful than it was, it doesn't worth called rework.

4. If condition 3 can't be fulfilled, then at least make some kind of change to compensate the nerf. Nerf one part, but buff the other part.

5. No people keep complaining or even quit the game because of the rework, even until after several considerable amount of time after rework. Like this, this guy also already complaining.

 

So, worth it called as rework?

[Askell91]

It's ant a rework. They made it a  2 button skill instead of 1. Thats it.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

11 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

It's ant a rework. They made it a  2 button skill instead of 1. Thats it.

1 button spam fatal teleport :D 

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako

[Hans.Yulian]

Just now, (Xbox One)EternalDrk Mako said:

1 button spam fatal teleport :D 

and your sentinel die

[(XBOX)SpaceVice]

I absolutely hate the ash "rework" you basically did nothing but nerf him. You didn't fix any of his issues, you just took the only thing that made him decent. Ash is not a stealth frame, and if he were in that league he'd be by far the worst stealth frame, seeing that he has the shortest invisibility. The only thing that made Ash different was bladestorm , and you nerfed it into oblivion and fed us a deluxe skin to try and keep up satisfied. 

Nerfs are never the answer to Warframe balancing issues. Ash is useless now, he's not stealthy, he's not deadly, he's just a shadow of his former self. I strongly think you should restore his bladestorm to its previous potency or change it to something akin to world on fire with ash clones instead of killing him and saying he's fixed.

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)SpaceVice said:

I absolutely hate the ash "rework" you basically did nothing but nerf him. You didn't fix any of his issues, you just took the only thing that made him decent. Ash is not a stealth frame, and if he were in that league he'd be by far the worst stealth frame, seeing that he has the shortest invisibility. The only thing that made Ash different was bladestorm , and you nerfed it into oblivion and fed us a deluxe skin to try and keep up satisfied. 

Nerfs are never the answer to Warframe balancing issues. Ash is useless now, he's not stealthy, he's not deadly, he's just a shadow of his former self. I strongly think you should restore his bladestorm to its previous potency or change it to something akin to world on fire with ash clones instead of killing him and saying he's fixed.

I use to think and feel like you until i tried the new rework or (buff)

Ash is now stronger and even better

The Blade Shower (previously blade storm) is more effective and i get to kill more enemies

Join me (since we are on the same console)  and will show you how to enjoy the new Ash

PS: i will be login within 7 hours if you are interested

[(XBOX)DragonoidBlast]

dude wtf no u fking DE's by doing your dumb Sht, and ur stupid fking nerfs, ruined ash for everyone. Even fking players that have been on warframe since the very beginning, made videos saying they'd never use ash ever again. U DE's were being retarted and thought oh yeah we're gnna change ash for the better. Hell in the devstreams u guys made it seem like you were making him op as hell nah not even u turned him to Sht literally no one will use him ever maybe for mastery rank points but nothing else. Then again u people did the same thing for excalibur. Everyone loved his exalted blade and it was op that y people like him, but u guys were like no we dont want his 4 ability used as a fking turret and nerfed his damage. Thanks to that a good portion of players and friends of mine stopped playing the damn game because of that bullSht. I mean honestly, im a old warframe player ive been on since update 8 or 7 and the game was great on pc, but u guys made one mistake. You should've thought about what people would think about the nerfs u did to frames, and wat i mean is tht not just the fking youtubers like bullsht a$$ mogamu who no one respects anymore or cares for since he's DE's btch, nolisten to players who are regular like people that play yes but are like ones who have enough experience in the game. honestly i cant believe it like the game was good now it's just horrible. and hb this you guys have made the game so bad even high level players on pc that have been on warframe from the start are calling this game trash about like 4-5,000 players have left because of ur bullSht. TBH warframe will have been ended no a dead game in about 1-2-3 years from now. u guys ruined the damn game with ur stupid fking ideas. GOOD FKING JOB< HOPE UR ASSESS ARE PROUD

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)DragonoidBlast

[(XBOX)Oussii]

20 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DragonoidBlast said:

dude wtf no u fking DE's by doing your dumb Sht, and ur stupid fking nerfs, ruined ash for everyone. Even fking players that have been on warframe since the very beginning, made videos saying they'd never use ash ever again. U DE's were being retarted and thought oh yeah we're gnna change ash for the better. Hell in the devstreams u guys made it seem like you were making him op as hell nah not even u turned him to Sht literally no one will use him ever maybe for mastery rank points but nothing else. Then again u people did the same thing for excalibur. Everyone loved his exalted blade and it was op that y people like him, but u guys were like no we dont want his 4 ability used as a fking turret and nerfed his damage. Thanks to that a good portion of players and friends of mine stopped playing the damn game because of that bullSht. I mean honestly, im a old warframe player ive been on since update 8 or 7 and the game was great on pc, but u guys made one mistake. You should've thought about what people would think about the nerfs u did to frames, and wat i mean is tht not just the fking youtubers like bullsht a$$ mogamu who no one respects anymore or cares for since he's DE's btch, nolisten to players who are regular like people that play yes but are like ones who have enough experience in the game. honestly i cant believe it like the game was good now it's just horrible. and hb this you guys have made the game so bad even high level players on pc that have been on warframe from the start are calling this game trash about like 4-5,000 players have left because of ur bullSht. TBH warframe will have been ended no a dead game in about 1-2-3 years from now. u guys ruined the damn game with ur stupid fking ideas. GOOD FKING JOB< HOPE UR ASSESS ARE PROUD

oh boy.. i see a ban here

Hold your horses bro

Join me on XBOX and i will show you how Ash became more OP and stronger and even better.

Just cool down man

[(XBOX)DragonoidBlast]

dude no ban at all im on xbox not pc DE cant do a thing to me

 

[(PSN)REAPER_021417]

On 12/11/2016 at 7:33 PM, Calvyr said:

 

There are very few frames that have a "press 4 to win" ability. I named a couple of them, being Ember and Banshee, and I'm looking forward to DE taking a look at those frames and making changes to them. Equinox is another to an extent, and one might be able to argue Nova is another example but M-Prime doesn't actually kill everything, just makes everything easier to kill.

Come on DE hurry up and nerf all the frames so one will want to play your game anymore