Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)zXx_Fly_Guy_xXz]

On June 14, 2016 at 6:04 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

We decided to rework Blade Storm after almost a full year of the same themed feedback showing up. We often heard and experienced a power that doesn't allow for player participation beyond pressing 4 once and waiting. We have been increasingly committed to participatory powers (especially ultimates) and focused on emphasizing that for Blade Storm.

Blade Storm Changes:

• Blade Storm now has a new 'Mark Enemy' mode that is activated when you hit 4. Ash enters target mode, which you can freely target enemies with your reticule up to 3 times each for attack. Once you're satisfied, press 4 again, Blade Storm begins and all targeted enemies are attacked!
• Each mark costs Energy (15) which is affected by Mods. If a marked enemy is killed by a squad mate, you will get the energy back. 
• Marks made while invisible by any source will have a cheaper base cost (10). 
• Enemies killed by Blade Storm will dissolve, leaving no corpse behind to detect!

Teleport Changes:

• Teleport will now allow you to target anything with a health bar! Instead of being limited to Teleporting to allies or enemies, you can now teleport to objects. 

Smokescreen Changes:

• Smoke Screen can now be cast while running (no lower body movement lock).
• Smoke Screen can now be cast while in-air! 

Please note that we will be closely monitoring your practical feedback - please feel free to share videos and discussions after playing this rework. It'll help us if you include details on your build used too. 

Edit: Non-constructive feedback, dev-bashing, and any other content that violates Code of Conduct will be removed.

Edit: All related threads will be merged here. Thank you! 

Ash Rework

Ash's 1. Shuriken( Ash throws multiple Shurikens per enemy in sight not just 3 random )

Ash's 2. Smoke Screen( same but reduces all ability cost while active if not already )

Ash's 3.Teleport( Ash can teleport to any marked or hovered overed location ( maybe even a 3 step teleport to confuse enemies like tracer )

Ash's 4. Bladestorm( Ash throws out multiple swords or Shuriken, any enemy within range will be attacked( something similar to minato from naruto) ) <---

Ash's Passive- Remains the same

[(XBOX)Oussii]

ASH:

Before the rework:

#1 #2 #3 useless

#4 Blade storm, Very good

after the rework:

#1 #2 #3 useless

# Blade shower, OP, Perfect

(that's my opinion)

[Zounderth]

Is it possible to make Ash have an Aura around him like 5 - 10m (not that big just a nice radius around him) when initiating target mode? so enemies in this aura is marked for death with 1 mark, if need be Ash can use his crosshair to mark enemies again for 2 or 3 marks. (or aiming on enemy head to grant an instant 3 mark). This will help Ash mark enemies that is behind him (within the aura of course) while he can mark other enemies in the distance. Sometimes i find that i get hit by pesky powerfist from behind while i'm targeting lol. Also, it will have a nice synergy with Teleport, as you can mark enemies around the enemy you Teleported to and you can initiate BS after the teleport kill. It would be even better if BS is done by clones so that Ash is able to continue fighting and mark more targets. Just a thought.   

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)DragonoidBlast said:

dude wtf no u fking DE's by doing your dumb Sht, and ur stupid fking nerfs, ruined ash for everyone. Even fking players that have been on warframe since the very beginning, made videos saying they'd never use ash ever again. U DE's were being retarted and thought oh yeah we're gnna change ash for the better. Hell in the devstreams u guys made it seem like you were making him op as hell nah not even u turned him to Sht literally no one will use him ever maybe for mastery rank points but nothing else. Then again u people did the same thing for excalibur. Everyone loved his exalted blade and it was op that y people like him, but u guys were like no we dont want his 4 ability used as a fking turret and nerfed his damage. Thanks to that a good portion of players and friends of mine stopped playing the damn game because of that bullSht. I mean honestly, im a old warframe player ive been on since update 8 or 7 and the game was great on pc, but u guys made one mistake. You should've thought about what people would think about the nerfs u did to frames, and wat i mean is tht not just the fking youtubers like bullsht a$$ mogamu who no one respects anymore or cares for since he's DE's btch, nolisten to players who are regular like people that play yes but are like ones who have enough experience in the game. honestly i cant believe it like the game was good now it's just horrible. and hb this you guys have made the game so bad even high level players on pc that have been on warframe from the start are calling this game trash about like 4-5,000 players have left because of ur bullSht. TBH warframe will have been ended no a dead game in about 1-2-3 years from now. u guys ruined the damn game with ur stupid fking ideas. GOOD FKING JOB< HOPE UR ASSESS ARE PROUD

delicious.

[Sev1107]

Before I start I just want to say that I main Ash so this isn't from the view of a non-Ash player. Here are my problems with the Ash bladestorm "rework" (other than it not really being reworked and simply adding a targeting system to it):

First of all, the old problem still remains, albeit at a significantly lower rate, but it still promotes lazyness from Ash players. Instead of just pressing 4 you now press 4, look around and press 4 again.

Second, teleport does a better job of killing an enemy on its own, even with a bad melee weapon. Add in Fatal Teleport and a decent melee weapon or even covert lethality and you have an ability that outclasses Bladestorm with very little trouble. The only thing Bladestorm has over Teleport is being able to target multiple enemies. Even the energy consumption is better on teleport and gets even better still with Fatal Teleport (provided the enemy dies, which it probably will).

 

My best suggestion would have been some kind of exalted ult, but I'm sure people are tired of that/don't want another Valkyr-esk ult. All I know is that Bladestorm needs to be reworked to synergize better with the rest of his abilities to really emphasize on him being the "ultimate assassin" warframe that he's made out to be.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Can i offer a small suggestion? People are complaining now that the ability still locks you into the cinematic mode, which restricts them as always, while others like it for its invulnerability. How about combining the two? How about having ash himself teleporting to 5 times, while any other enemy marked will be targeted by his clones. This frees up ash to do his own killing,  while his clones take care of the marked targets. How's that sound?

[Harikusa]

Imho this new ult is reworked in both bad and good ways.

Good thing about new ult:

1) You actually start to do something to use your ult;

2) Range mods don't really matter (only if u wanna mark enemy from a far it does) and you can kill enemy 360 deg around you.

3) If enemy is weak or your DMG is high enough you need to use only 1 mark on them and you save energy when atacking few enemies

Bad things:

1) "More than one mark per enemy system" is a really bad thing in many ways. Main things are:

a. To mark enemy more than once you waste time

b. 2nd and 3rd mark also uses energy and every time uses the same amount of energy

2) Mana cost is segnificantly higher in compare with old ult costs.

a. With standart energy efficiency you could kill 18 enemies and spend 100 energy with new ult 18*15=270

b. If you wanted to reduce cost of ult you needed to use stealth and cost be 18*10+35=215; but you have to include duration mods what wasn't necesarry before, because my duration is 12% (~1 second of invisibility)

c. (Power Range = pr, for shorter) PR irrelevant but also important. Contraversy, the distance you can apply a mark determined by pr but you don't really need it with new ult. With old ult pr was wery important so you didn't hesitate if it's a thing you need or don't need but now most people think more about duration.

d. If you play new Ash the way it was intended you can't use mod called Energy Conversion because you need to go stealth before you use ult and Smoke Screen consumes that stack although Smoke screen isn't improved in any way noticable. When you use ult to mark enemies it doesn't comsume Stack of Energy Conversion.

It would be great if Smoke Screen or any non damaging abilities wouldn't consume Energy Conversion stack or in best if you could get 2, 3 or more stacks of that mod.

 

There is many ways you could make Bladestorm better or even rework whole Ash to make him better. He ment to be fast so you can't (or atleast it would be hard to do so) more than one skill in his kit like you did with Vauban.

First way to make current Ash better is to make "Mark" a skill or atleast part of a skill. You can mark only when you are in stealth (with your skill or not isn't important) Smoke Screen turns in to Marking ability and what it will do is mark enemy by clicking that ability and all enemy in specific radius around marked enemy will be atacked (till they are dead or be atacked for N amounts of times). First 3 marks will cost 25 energy every next mark will add 5 energy to it's cost. If you apply 5 marks it will cost you 25+25+25+30+35=140 it's more than old Bladestorm but definitely cheaper than new one.

Also your Shuriken could do extra damage to marked enemies or your shurikens could do something good because that is one useless skill.

P.S.

Thank you for your attention                                                                                                         Kind regards - Я.

P.P.S.

You really should have some closed Beta Test servers and test stuff before releasing crazy bugged stuff in game I'm talking about stuff you do in general non Ash in specific.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Harikusa

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

14 hours ago, Actriaz said:

Ash is only good at killing things. And when his powers no longer kill things, he becomes useless. I think every warframe should have it's own unique contribution to a team.

I can still kill heavy eximus units up to level 140 with just his powers (tested multiple times in the Simulcrum), so I'm not sure exactly what level you're using as the effective baseline for 'being able to kill'.

His contribution to the team is that he is the assassin. And in high end content when everyone else's damage drops off he can still take out the most durable priority targets. Finisher damage bypasses all armor and shields so he always does direct damage to health (which is amazing if you pair with a Saryn, or have a good viral proc weapon). His job is to take out priority targets that others have trouble with, helping his team in the process (i know that part is kinda a stretch lol). Honestly, his skills are wasted if used on anything under level 30-40 if you have a half decent build. His damage scales better than anyone in the game which is important when you realize most other damage frames have to resort to being crowd control frames in anything over level 50.

By the way, I actually saved my teammate with Smokescreen in the Sortie survival just last night. He got surrounded and stun-locked so I used Smokescreen to stagger the enemies and he got away to heal while I killed the targets.

I think you may have benefited from it more than you realize, but since you didn't see it you didn't realize it. But, I also admit you probably get stuck with a lot of terrible Ash players that don't know how to use their powers. Those kind of people only gravitated to him for press4towin and didn't bother finding out what his other powers were capable of which is why they are so butthurt about the Bladestorm rework.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

can still kill heavy eximus units up to level 140 with just his powers

Yeah with FT its kills everything. None issuse

1 hour ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

(which is amazing if you pair with a Saryn

Yes, Sayrn has great team synergies with any frame. Non issue

The Ash "BS rework" is the issue, no other frame that has a AOE utl you have to "select a target" mini game at a insane energy cost. And we still have the cutscene, something that needs to be eliminated for obvious reasons. There is absolutely no reason to "death mark" or "BS" any single or group of enemies, not when we have the weapons we do and ash still possess FT that has infinite scaling and costs almost nothing to use. 

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(PSN)Derp43657]

14 hours ago, Hans.Yulian said:

The update doesn't worth to call as a "rework". The update is just a total nerf, direct nerf. If it's worth to call rework, you can see that there are many people still play ash, now i barely see any. So is this the thing that DE want? Making ash gone from the existence of the game? Just don't make Ash it from the first place then. 

 

To me, the change worth to be called as rework and success must follow these criteria:

1. People still use it, so if you see still almost the same amount of chance to see that warframe in public mission, then we can consider it as an ok.

2. Even if it's in different way, still the number of people play it should be the same or even increased.

3. The skill that being reworked should become something really different from the previous one, and have functionality. If the skill still the same, really similar, but worse and less powerful than it was, it doesn't worth called rework.

4. If condition 3 can't be fulfilled, then at least make some kind of change to compensate the nerf. Nerf one part, but buff the other part.

5. No people keep complaining or even quit the game because of the rework, even until after several considerable amount of time after rework. Like this, this guy also already complaining.

 

So, worth it called as rework?

Precisely, it feels like all the DE did was nerf Ash and thanks to all these nerfs or "reworks" it made Ash an unplayable Warframe.

[(PSN)Derp43657]

Usually the ninjas and assassins in most games tend to be weak when it comes to defense but when it comes to damage output they are very proficient. So why does DE still insist on making Ash look like a ninja/assassin and even have abilities that prove Ash is a ninja/assassin when Ash can't even deal that much damage anymore? Ash lacks balance in terms of defense and damage output and I really hope the DE buff Ash because he is practically unplayable.

[Hypernaut1]

I like it. I still get killed with BS. I still see people playing Ash. 

BS doesn't delete rooms of enemies like it use to, but it's still a good ability and does plenty of damage. I find it more fun now. I love marking enemies and activating BS while on the move. Casting SS on the move was also a big defensive buff IMO. I do wish shuriken got more love. It tracks better now, but should have some inherent utility to it now, especially to marked targets. 

I personally like the feel of running around in dark ninja mode, marking my targets for the kill. 

I was really fearful of the rework before. I thought they were going to go with either a boring exhalted blade ultimate or with ninja rumblers. I'm satisfied with what they decided on.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Hypernaut1]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Derp43657 said:

Usually the ninjas and assassins in most games tend to be weak when it comes to defense but when it comes to damage output they are very proficient. So why does DE still insist on making Ash look like a ninja/assassin and even have abilities that prove Ash is a ninja/assassin when Ash can't even deal that much damage anymore? Ash lacks balance in terms of defense and damage output and I really hope the DE buff Ash because he is practically unplayable.

I still do extremely well in sorties. It still takes a simulor Mirage to outkill me as Ash. I still take out groups of high level enemies faster than most players while my teammates are running and being defensive (at the end of eximus sorties). Still targeting those high damage priority enemies ands killing them before they kill team. I still get a high number of revives in a mission. Still the one grabbing LS. 

He's far from unplayable.

[Nazrethim]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Derp43657 said:

Precisely, it feels like all the DE did was nerf Ash and thanks to all these nerfs or "reworks" it made Ash an unplayable Warframe.

I'm kicking more arse now than I did before, I never run short of energy with my non-FleetingExpertise build, I can cast smoke screen at blinding speeds without stopping behind a corner to not get shot. I can fly towards a teammate and cloak them with smoke shadow as I move for my next kill. Dunno what the F you are talking about.

 

[Sev1107]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Derp43657 said:

Usually the ninjas and assassins in most games tend to be weak when it comes to defense but when it comes to damage output they are very proficient. So why does DE still insist on making Ash look like a ninja/assassin and even have abilities that prove Ash is a ninja/assassin when Ash can't even deal that much damage anymore? Ash lacks balance in terms of defense and damage output and I really hope the DE buff Ash because he is practically unplayable.

Here's how Ash's defensive capabilities work imo:

In trouble? Smokebomb and walk away.

Low on health? Fatal Teleport to an enemy while channeling melee weapon with Life Strike and you get max health again with little energy cost.

 

As for offensive,I feel like you're joking or just ignorant of his abilities because not only can he strip away armor with the Shuriken augment mod (which can also help out teammates), he can one-shot any non-multistage enemy/boss that can be targeted by Fatal Teleport. And certain bosses just takes 3 or 4 teleports depending on how many stages they have.

Stack on the use of the Naramon focus tree and he is almost unbeatable with the proper weapons. More often than not all I use is a melee and I out damage and out kill 99% of the player base that I have been paired up with.

 

I mean no offense by this, but if you feel that Ash is so severely limited because of the Bladestorm changes, you do not know the capabilities of him and clearly haven't tried.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

3 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Yeah with FT its kills everything. None issuse

I'm not sure you read the whole post, or the one I quoted in that post. Did you?

My comment was in reference to the quoted person saying Ash is useless once he stops being able to kill things. My response was to explain that enemies outleveling his ability to kill with pure damage is higher than any frame in the game. 

It's not a non-issue. It's exactly the issue that was being discussed, that he brought up. Lol

[LycanPT]

49 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I'm kicking more arse now than I did before, I never run short of energy with my non-FleetingExpertise build, I can cast smoke screen at blinding speeds without stopping behind a corner to not get shot. I can fly towards a teammate and cloak them with smoke shadow as I move for my next kill. Dunno what the F you are talking about.

 

You got some QoL changes to some skills that behave the same as before, the skills were already there, that can't be called a rework, everything is the same except now you have 1 extra step to trigger a less powerful version of an ability with the sme mechanics as before, that's a nerf

Edited December 13, 2016 by LycanPT

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I'm not sure you read the whole post, or the one I quoted in that post. Did you?

My comment was in reference to the quoted person saying Ash is useless once he stops being able to kill things. My response was to explain that enemies outleveling his ability to kill with pure damage is higher than any frame in the game. 

It's not a non-issue. It's exactly the issue that was being discussed, that he brought up. Lol

The original issue was his inability to kill mobs quickly and immediately with his reworked BS. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

can still kill heavy eximus units up to level 140 with just his powers (tested multiple times in the Simulcrum),

I was referring to your nonspecific statement  "you can kill a level 140 with ashs powers" yes we all know that you can kill anything with his 3 and FT... I was referring to Ashs incompetent BS rework that cant kill at lvl 100 hvy with a BS build to specify the issues and not his powers in general  lol 

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(PSN)Nyamiche]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

I'm kicking more arse now than I did before, I never run short of energy with my non-FleetingExpertise build, I can cast smoke screen at blinding speeds without stopping behind a corner to not get shot. I can fly towards a teammate and cloak them with smoke shadow as I move for my next kill. Dunno what the F you are talking about.

 

^ I agree with the gentleman/lady here.  Beat out a simulor/mirage in dps in survival sortie a few days back, and I genuinely enjoy playing my Ash now.  The QOL to smokescreen was amazing; just wish the added a 5 sec blind effect to enemies affected by the stagger, y'know smoke in your eyes from the bomb and what not.  Back on topic though, I don't consider the rework a nerf.  You just have to think outside the box and use more of his kit, and an augment or two, to put out that sweet-sweet-dps.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

I was referring to your nonspecific statement  "you can kill a level 140 with ashs powers" yes we all know that. I was referring to Ashs incompetent BS rework that cant kill at lvl 100 with a BS build. lol 

He isn't built to kill quickly and immediately. He's built to kill anything. And he's good at it.

My statement gave a specific example of how damage drop off is not a problem for Ash, therefore the other persons statement that Ash was useless once he can't damage enemies anymore was irrelevant because armor and shield scaling don't apply to him. It was apparent that the other person did not in fact know that...It's literally the only reason why I brought it up before you jumped in for the sake of argument without finding out what the conversation was about.

If he could walk into a room and hit as many targets as Miasma in the same time frame he would be more overpowered than anything in the game. The entire point is that he does finisher damage. Every other damage type is resisted by enemy types and existence of armor and shields which is why he cannot follow that formula. I don't disagree that something could be done about the way the animations are done, but removing him completely from the process is probably not the solution unless they change Bladestorm back to slashing damage. Then you'll really see the community cry "Nerf!" lol

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

He isn't built to kill quickly and immediately. He's built to kill anything. And he's good at it.

My statement gave a specific example of how damage drop off is not a problem for Ash, therefore the other persons statement that Ash was useless once he can't damage enemies anymore was irrelevant because armor and shield scaling don't apply to him. It was apparent that the other person did not in fact know that...It's literally the only reason why I brought it up before you jumped in for the sake of argument without finding out what the conversation was about.

If he could walk into a room and hit as many targets as Miasma in the same time frame he would be more overpowered than anything in the game. The entire point is that he does finisher damage. Every other damage type is resisted by enemy types and existence of armor and shields which is why he cannot follow that formula. I don't disagree that something could be done about the way the animations are done, but removing him completely from the process is probably not the solution unless they change Bladestorm back to slashing damage. Then you'll really see the community cry "Nerf!" lol

Since this mark mode is a thing now, his 4 should have the same damage out put as his 3 with 1 mark. No more painting targets 3 times..one mark thats it.

Edited December 13, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

His 4 should have the same damage out put as his 3. Especially with the mark mode rework.

If they limit the targets he can mark, then I could definitely agree with that since it would follow his playstyle theme.

[Nazrethim]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Sesom089 said:

just wish the added a 5 sec blind effect to enemies affected by the stagger,

I present you Tear Gas:

Now let's just convince DE to allow this baby on PvE loadouts (like, pretty much almost all other conclave mods)

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I love the QoL upgrades and the Bladestorm rework. They work perfectly for my playstyle because I barely even used Bladestorm before the update. Now I actually have a use for it.

You might not like how the power is now. I can live with that, it's an opinion. But it cannot go back to the pre-update ability. It was broken, and overpowered. If you want something better DE is pretty open to implementing good suggestions. You should offer up some ideas for improvement that will balance it out.