DE, No More Frame Reworks Please. Just Stop

[PanicPrime]

Ash's rework is a clear improvement to team play.

Previously Ash just presses 4 to claim the whole map and the rest of us are stuck watching Ash demonstrate how broken he is. "All the fun belongs to me now"

Now, the rest of the team are actually able to play the game and enjoy themselves without Ash calling dibs on everything that comes through the door.

[Vesiga]

5 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Ever since Saryn you guys have made terrible decisions regarding reworks (sans Nekros). Saryn's abilities don't synergize the way they are supposed to, she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups, and now Ash's ultimate takes too long to even be useful at anything but Solo and even then he will get gunned down unless he uses his now mandatory Smoke Bomb.

I am honestly willing to accept the cheap and potentially broken aspects of frames you plan to rework if this is the kind of quality we are going to get in them. Take a very hard long think about what you've done wrong and rectify it or you will end up purposely ruining most of your frames.

Either change how you think about certain frames or stop reworking them. I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

While I can agree the way ash's 4th abil rework is a bit more of "how fast can you spazz your mouse on your screen to mark things up" 

gottah disagree with you on Saryn lol. I can solo past lv 130's just fine on her.  and this is without regen molt. She's better than she was before.
I've been using her since about April 2014 as my main ever since I got her. 

[Tizodd]

33 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Lets get something straight, sayn doesnt have abiltity synergy it has ability dependency, without setting up right combo's saryn is pretty weak compared to other frames, its abiltiies take to long to set up to be really useful in normal play, for example I a while ago was in team with saryn(I very rarely see saryn truth to be told), we were together in room he was doing something to the side, I didnt realize what he was doing since I was focused on killing enemies, after I quickly killed all enemies I realized what he was doing, he was setting up his ability combo, but since it was taking a while everything was dead by the time he finished preperations.

Sorry but you're incorrect.  Saryn has basically two strong builds: Spore build and Toxic Lash build.

• Spore build: Build focused on Power Strength, Power Range, decent Efficiency, decent Duration.  Spore can be casted directly on an enemy, or casted on Molt (uses less energy).  Shoot or melee the Spores and watch it spread to other enemies.  From there you can recast Molt, causing the existing Molt to explode in a Toxin aoe; or you can cast Miasma, which will automatically cause Molt to explode.  Miasma will do more damage to enemies now because they have a Viral proc from Spores and a Toxin proc from Molt.
• Toxic Lash build: Balanced in terms of stats.  In my build I gave Saryn some survivability with [Quick Thinking], [Rage], and [Primed Flow] since I'll be up close and personal with enemies.  This mod combo works well with Saryn because her high energy pool (850 energy with Primed Flow) is basically more eHP.  Once you're in mission, activate Toxic Lash, Spore an enemy, hit that enemy with your melee weapon and go to town (you can also Spore a Molt and melee it).  You'll need to refresh Toxic Lash and Spore periodically.  You can also cast Molt to take some of the heat off yourself and provide a distraction; or use Molt to spread Toxin procs so your Miasma does more damage.

This is synergy...not dependency.  Abilities can improve one another but are not needed.

All I can say about the person you grouped with is he/she probably didn't build Saryn right.  Sounds like he/she was using a Spore build.  When I use my Spore build, it literally melts enemies.  I typically only use it in groups with friends because it often annoys public groups when they don't get to kill things.

[Merrowen]

Hi everyone. Here's a few thoughts of mine about the ash.

First of: ash, and then prime, were the frames I used most ever since I got them. I simply like the gameplay (and looks of prime)

Now, people play their frames differently. Some spam 4. Some don't. I used bladestorm as a panic button, or to clear swarming baddies around fallen team members/harvesters etc. Mostly relied on smoke screen with group effect radius mod.

Now, after the rework, I did a few survivals (mostly void fissure) to get a feel for the new bladestorm.

What I noticed boils down to this:

1.In any situation where npc's can hurt you, using smoke screen before bladestorm is *mandatory*. Otherwise you simply die, period. For the record, yes, you can climb up some high perch, if one's available, first and bladestorm from there, I'll get back to it in a moment.

2. Energy cost of bladestorm dealing with any reasonable number of npc's is VERY high. Even with smoke deployed, killing 20 or more (with energy leecher somewhere in the crowd leaves you almost dry. Not a good thing when dealing with a horde of angry, level 80 and up things, looking to perforate you. Using primed flow doesn't change it significantly, since the energy pool goes up to 450, at maximum, from 300.Bottomline here: you have to be very, very careful of when you use bladestorm. Does it prevent spamming 4 and annoying other team players on low level missions? Sure. Is it a change that makes ash more, or less fun to play? For me,sadly, it's less.

3. Playstyles differ between people, that's obvious. Myself, I like to play my ash p by staying in motion all the time, jumping in with my telos boltace, spinning through a group of baddies, jumping to another one, use smoke sometimes, when needed. Generally keep on the move. Bladestorm was supplementary to it, since it didn't break the flow of fight, so to speak. Now, it does. I have to drop smoke bomb, or search for a safe spot on a ledge or other spot, and then stand for a few seconds picking the targets before being able to continue with a fight. Some say it's not a big change. But to me, it makes bladestorm feel...clanky. Again, of course, opinions on it will differ.

Conclusion: depending on what's the end goal of ash's bladestorm, some changes are needed. Perhaps smoke bomb effect tied to the bladestorm on activation. Lowering its energy cost somewhat. Or perhaps changing the skill alltogether, as some people suggested, and making it so activating it sends shadow clones of ash to kill the things around you, while you can still fight. To be honest I'd say that I like this suggestion, simply because it wouldn't break the flow of fight for me, as the current bladestorm does.

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Merrowen

[Culaio]

51 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

That's... Not completely true. Spores well alone with any status weapon, molt is molt, toxic lash can actually be pretty useful by itself, and Miasma, though week, it actually a pretty good stun.

Sure, she demands more interaction between abilities, but how is that bad? When we have frames that only need you to use one ability over and over again, some codependency is actually quite refresing -- and I say so as someone who constantly plays melee saryn, and I get frustrated how I can build up my combou counter because enemies die too fast.

Yes, some ways to play her demand some ridiculous preparation--- but then again, #notallofthem, and most that do are pretty meta, pretty cheesy, and pretty unnecessary.

 

23 minutes ago, Tizodd said:

Sorry but you're incorrect.  Saryn has basically two strong builds: Spore build and Toxic Lash build.

• Spore build: Build focused on Power Strength, Power Range, decent Efficiency, decent Duration.  Spore can be casted directly on an enemy, or casted on Molt (uses less energy).  Shoot or melee the Spores and watch it spread to other enemies.  From there you can recast Molt, causing the existing Molt to explode in a Toxin aoe; or you can cast Miasma, which will automatically cause Molt to explode.  Miasma will do more damage to enemies now because they have a Viral proc from Spores and a Toxin proc from Molt.
• Toxic Lash build: Balanced in terms of stats.  In my build I gave Saryn some survivability with [Quick Thinking], [Rage], and [Primed Flow] since I'll be up close and personal with enemies.  This mod combo works well with Saryn because her high energy pool (850 energy with Primed Flow) is basically more eHP.  Once you're in mission, activate Toxic Lash, Spore an enemy, hit that enemy with your melee weapon and go to town (you can also Spore a Molt and melee it).  You'll need to refresh Toxic Lash and Spore periodically.  You can also cast Molt to take some of the heat off yourself and provide a distraction; or use Molt to spread Toxin procs so your Miasma does more damage.

This is synergy...not dependency.  Abilities can improve one another but are not needed.

All I can say about the person you grouped with is he/she probably didn't build Saryn right.  Sounds like he/she was using a Spore build.  When I use my Spore build, it literally melts enemies.  I typically only use it in groups with friends because it often annoys public groups when they don't get to kill things.

Saryn abilties are pretty medicore alone, there are many other abilities in game that deal same or more damage while providing good CC, sayrn abiltiies also can take too much time to take effect(kill enemy) I frequently kill enemies saryn player is trying to kill with powers before his abilites have chance to finish off enemy, hell there were times where I by accident stoped spread of saryn abilities by killing enemy under effect of her ability(I felt bad about this), I dont do it on puporse, warframe is fast paced game and I focus on killing enemies as fast as possible.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Culaio

[Zaitsiev]

This game, supposedly, is still on Beta. If I remember correctly, they warned that there were meant to be some changes here and there, so I'm sure everyone could have expected some change on their favorite warframes, for better or for worse.

Now, you can't just say that there mustn’t be any sort of rework on the warframes. There are many warframes that are getting overused while others are practically forgotten. Let's face it; it was kind of annoying to have an ash whose sole purpose was to break his or her "4" key. In one scenario, you would literally be doing nothing but just waiting until the mission is completed, or in other cases, the Ash would be doing nothing useful with its blade storm, yet continue to spam it, and you will be left fighting with one member less. And it became incredibly ridiculous when there were more than one Ash doing the exact same thing.

Now, I don't play ash, I used once and didn't liked it, but a friend of mine who used to play ash says it still very useful, and for what I have read, the only thing that was "nerfed" for Ash was its blade storm, while everything else was given a bit more of utility.

[StinkyPygmy]

OP you're drunk. Sayrns rework is great and she is incedibly survivable. I've played her almost exclusively since she came out and I was melee only soloing T4 void before rejen molt was a thing. Nekros, is much better now compared to previously. Same goes for Booben etc. I'm not saying they always get it right, but this mind set stems from the communities fear of change and lack of ability to adapt.

Either way, I'd rather frames didn't stay either underwhelming or broken forever.

[(PSN)Puckish_Rogue125]

5 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Ever since Saryn you guys have made terrible decisions regarding reworks (sans Nekros). Saryn's abilities don't synergize the way they are supposed to, she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups, and now Ash's ultimate takes too long to even be useful at anything but Solo and even then he will get gunned down unless he uses his now mandatory Smoke Bomb.

I am honestly willing to accept the cheap and potentially broken aspects of frames you plan to rework if this is the kind of quality we are going to get in them. Take a very hard long think about what you've done wrong and rectify it or you will end up purposely ruining most of your frames.

Either change how you think about certain frames or stop reworking them. I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

Saryn did just fine helpin protect excavators at over 5k cryo on pluto. And im sure Ash is more than fine and perfectly capable so long as you actually know and understand what youre doin. Not sure what your problem seems to be. 

[An8rchy]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

Saryn did just fine helpin protect excavators at over 5k cryo on pluto. And im sure Ash is more than fine and perfectly capable so long as you actually know and understand what youre doin. Not sure what your problem seems to be

Did you see that ? the point that No Ash main seems to understand ????

3 minutes ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

Ash is more than fine and perfectly capable so long as you actually know and understand what youre doin.

Not yet ?

3 minutes ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

long as you actually know and understand what youre doin. 

^ That. If u have a souly Bs build u arent doing it right. Hybrids builds is where is at

[Toppien]

welp i played with ash last night, and hes ok, hes no longer a just press 4 frame, and i feel marking the targets quite satisfactory

btw, you can move while marking targets, just try it

[xFrostKnightx]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

Saryn did just fine helpin protect excavators at over 5k cryo on pluto. And im sure Ash is more than fine and perfectly capable so long as you actually know and understand what youre doin. Not sure what your problem seems to be. 

The problem is you can't blind fold yourself and mash 4 now, rip low level cheesing.   The only change I was honestly recommend is limit the ult animation to 1-3 based on how many you mark and just have shades simultaneously attack the others so it deals with the long animation issue better. I do see some request for more flexibility with his teleport, since containers and some objects can't be teleported to once broken .

Edited November 26, 2016 by xFrostKnightx

[Mints]

I don't really understand what all the fuss is about. Bladestorm was very powerful and very effective but also pretty boring. I remember my Ash bladestorming Kuva Siphons over and over again for quite some time just after War Within came out. It was in bad shape mechanic-wise and I think it was a great idea. Now Ash has a playstyle that isn't dive bombing into a group of enemies and pressing 4.

As far as Saryn is concerned I don't know how you're building her but dropping a decoy and casting spore on it is a great way to apply the effect to a large group assuming you've got decent Power Range. Toxic Lash is also a fantastic applicator of spores and with appropriate power strength mods it turns Saryn into a killing machine. If you have survivability problems stick Vigor, Rage, and Armored Agility on her and bring a Crit/Combo weapon with Life Strike.

[7Random77]

56 minutes ago, Gabry_96 said:

And I'd say: THANK GOD. Energy is the most unbalanced thing in this game. Most of the frames don't even run out of energy, ever. 1) We literally have Primed Flow that gives a S#&$ton of energy to any frame, we have two efficiency mods that let you reach 75% energy use reduction, you have a Focus school which is completely unbalanced since it refills your energy bar at really high speed, and last but not least, we have freaking Trinity who refills everyone's energy instantly at no cost. 2) Let's face the truth: We NEED frames who use more energy. We need everyone to use more energy, and we need balanced ways to reduce energy consumption. 

Maybe no one will agree with me, but the 3) problem of this game is the lack of skillplays. Spamming powers simply isn't skill. Don't get me wrong, I like almost every frame in this game, but there isn't one who isn't unbalanced.

4)That being said, I really hope DE will give us more frames based on Saryn or Ash's reworks. They are frames who use their energy and their powers in a proper way.

1) You forgot BlindRage mod that takes away all that efficiency

2) Frames need use more energy and unfair energy eating enemies need go away or vice versa, but not both as it is now.

3) And this not cod, you need both powers and guns that makes warframe. Take away powers/all energy and how "skill" would save you in similar situations without *cough* naramon https://youtu.be/-ps4RwP2yi8?t=17s

4) Agree if they first take a look at some cheap cheese enemies.

 

[Stonehenge]

9 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

Ever since Saryn you guys have made terrible decisions regarding reworks (sans Nekros). Saryn's abilities don't synergize the way they are supposed to, she can't survive in ANYTHING without the use of very specific setups, and now Ash's ultimate takes too long to even be useful at anything but Solo and even then he will get gunned down unless he uses his now mandatory Smoke Bomb.

I am honestly willing to accept the cheap and potentially broken aspects of frames you plan to rework if this is the kind of quality we are going to get in them. Take a very hard long think about what you've done wrong and rectify it or you will end up purposely ruining most of your frames.

Either change how you think about certain frames or stop reworking them. I'd rather have broken legacy frames than unusable reworked ones.

- Saryn rework made her perfect. I survive ANYTHING in any team, in endgame missions. At the condition i handle her synergies completely. I love this. "Rip Saryn" was a lie.

- Mesa's ulti rework made her even cooler and sexier, fitts well the one-eye gunsliger theme, and prevent players to sit in a perma turret mode.

- Valkyr rework was needed, made her more exposed to pain feedback at the end, and that's cool for a berserker. Only lazy perma hysteria took a slap."Rip Valkyr" was a lie.

- Volt rework made him more CC suitable, with a lot more synergies, and the riot shield is hell of a fun. "Rip Volt" was a lie.

- Trin rework was needed, full bless builds were a joke. Perma 99% damage reduction ? yeah, sure. Totally balanced. "Rip Trin" was a complete lie.

- Exca rework (i mean the exalted blade nerf) was needed, laser arcs trought walls was too much.

- Mag rework was cool and interesting. Made her more original.

- Ash rework may need just a bit more work in quality of life aiming, but it's already FAR better than ancient permatard Ash.

Their reworks are one of the things they do the best and i hope they will not listen to the usual "i lost my win button" whine.

Cheers mate.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Stonehenge

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, Stonehenge said:

- Saryn rework made her perfect. I survive anything in any team, in endgame missions. At the condition i handle her synergies completely. 

Personally I would like it if her molt had more survivability and if her 4 had better CC (and applied the corrosive status), besides those I find her very useful in plenty of circumstances. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Madway7

[sonkun]

4 hours ago, Mingnit said:

Well...my Saryn still destroys rooms on sorties...don't know about that "bad rework" mine is working just fine.

 

 

Oh wait...I don't just press 4 anymore, I also use 1, 2, 3, and of course 4. Maybe that's why...I should go back and use 4 all the time and complain how it's crap and it's no where as easy to use as it used to be. 

Ash just needs synergy, nothing else his 4 is where it should be.

I rly don't understand why people make such a big fuzz between pressing 4 and pressing 2,1,(3),4 - it can still be played brainless to nuke whole rooms if u like to...

[Lexiel]

While I agree the Ash Blade Storm rework is pretty bonkers (You still are stuck in animation when you execute your marked targets... It only takes more fiddling and time and energy now...) I think the Saryn, Exca, Trin (blessing range) and other reworks are fine.

I'd love to see a MAG rework though. I mean her 4 is still pretty... Useless aside stun. Maybe something with pickups? Or something with magnetize so people will stop threatening to gut me when I use it on bosses? Lol.

[Gabry_96]

1 hour ago, 7Random77 said:

1) You forgot BlindRage mod that takes away all that efficiency

2) Frames need use more energy and unfair energy eating enemies need go away or vice versa, but not both as it is now.

3) And this not cod, you need both powers and guns that makes warframe. Take away powers/all energy and how "skill" would save you in similar situations without *cough* naramon https://youtu.be/-ps4RwP2yi8?t=17s

4) Agree if they first take a look at some cheap cheese enemies.

 

1) Blind Rage is not mandatory in all frames, while Efficiency and Energy Max mods go on 90% of current frames

2) I completely agree. Actually, I'm sure that DE added Nullifiers and Energy leeches in the game to counter this energy surplus.

3) Point is, there are frames who actually don't need guns. Ember, Saryn, Ash, Nyx, Excalibur and so on. This really ok, it makes you able to play the way you want, but POWERS and GUNS are supposed to be balanced to eachother. Right now, with those frames, it is pointless to use guns, and on some others it is pointless to use powers. 

4) Totally agree

[Stonehenge]

Besides, i don't know for other frames, but regarding Saryn specificaly, @Xylyssa, you keep posting very often super strange things about how messep up she is, (even in her...power color ?? You know, the topic you made about a non-existing bug with colored parts when toxic lash is active. I looked at mine : I say non-existing because everything you were complaining about is perfectly normal. It was just you pink colour wich looked buggish, apparently) and i 've already said to you, just watch the builds, and i even proposed you to contact me if you want proper builds and advices, just to show good faith. I really can show you how much those statements you make every weeks are wrong. But no, you just keep posting how much she 's totally bad. That's interesting, seems to be a hobby.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Stonehenge

[Stonehenge]

56 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

Personally I would like it if her molt had more survivability and if her 4 had better CC (and applied the corrosive status), besides those I find her very useful in plenty of circumstances. 

I don't how about the molt. On one hand, not being tanky make it a cool toxic grenade. But you have to cast it often if you want an efficient decoy. Does not bother me, i eat a lot of energy but nothing unmaneagable.

With the duration i have, the CC on my 4th last 4,67 secondes, while dot keeps chewing ennemies. More than 4 secondes is okay for a mass dps like her, imo. Agreed on corrosive status however. That would be great.

 

 

 

[NinjaKitsune56]

I've not used my Ash Prime since before the rework, so I can't comment on him specifically... I can comment on a couple others that have been "reworked".

 

Saryn - Used to be she could handle just about anything you'd throw at her, a Hysteria Valkyr included... Now, I'd be surprised if she could, but for the existence of a few very effective meta-builds that practically require an Energy Vampire Trinity, or a few energy pads, to set up.

Valkyr - The Hysteria rework, while definitely one of my least favorites (Valkyr's my most-used 'Frame, after all,) I've adjusted to it... I don't like it, but I've adapted.

[Stonehenge]

17 minutes ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

Saryn - Used to be she could handle just about anything you'd throw at her, a Hysteria Valkyr included... Now, I'd be surprised if she could, but for the existence of a few very effective meta-builds that practically require an Energy Vampire Trinity, or a few energy pads, to set up.

I' d say it obviously recquires some time to have the proper mods and build, but at the end, i assure you you have many ways to play one of the most energy consuming warframe without a need of a Trin or energy pads. Even if a Trin makes a lot of things regarding energy feel like a walk in the park, for sure.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Stonehenge

[venon23]

22 minutes ago, NinjaKitsune56 said:

I've not used my Ash Prime since before the rework, so I can't comment on him specifically... I can comment on a couple others that have been "reworked".

 

Saryn - Used to be she could handle just about anything you'd throw at her, a Hysteria Valkyr included... Now, I'd be surprised if she could, but for the existence of a few very effective meta-builds that practically require an Energy Vampire Trinity, or a few energy pads, to set up.

Valkyr - The Hysteria rework, while definitely one of my least favorites (Valkyr's my most-used 'Frame, after all,) I've adjusted to it... I don't like it, but I've adapted.

thats a lie i can run saryn too lvl 60 with out needing any thing of that while too past that i need other build that might need a trin but thats already meta as ppl call it

[RG870]

5 hours ago, Hesyol said:

Ash rework is an AWESOME thing and I really hope Ember is next. We don't need braindead gamplay and one-trick frames.

Yes, we DO! Because people are different and diversity is what makes a game appeal to a broad audience, hence providing a bigger player base with people with different skill levels, abilities and mind sets. I DON'T want every single frame to be complicated and require a ton of micro management. I want a big variety of frames starting with simple "press button x to win" mechanics up to frames which require all sorts of micro management (with rewarding results when doing it right). That way everybody can find a number of frames which suit their play styles.

Warframe is a co-op based looter shooter. It's not about competing with others. It's about achieving goals together, no matter how my team mates do it.

Besides Warframe, I for myself am a dedicated RPG player who is only interested in co-op PvE based RPGs. I prefer pet, support and ranged classes. I know others who prefer tank and melee classes with simple game mechanics. Others love hybrid classes with complicated micro management which would drive a tank player nuts. If you put a number of those different people together, you usually end up with a well balanced team of experts who can achieve everything in a game while having a ton of fun playing the game the way they want to.

THIS is what I want to see more in Warframe. And THIS is why I never had a problem with "broken" or "meta" frames. I usually tend to play other frames anyways as I'm not a min-maxer.

[Teridax68]

9 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

now Ash's ultimate takes too long to even be useful at anything but Solo and even then he will get gunned down unless he uses his now mandatory Smoke Bomb.

Bladestorm pre-rework was an ability that let you kill the entire contents of a room with a button press, with no further setup or preparation. It was not stealthy, it was not that fun for Ash, and certainly not for everyone else who wanted to play the game, and it was far too strong for the little real gameplay it provided. The fact that you consider using Smoke Bomb for cover a bad thing also shows you've been eased into this mindset where you just expect Ash, or any warframe really, to win without having to make use of your entire toolset for appropriate situations. There are plenty of other frames you can pick if you want to facetank, Ash is more of a stealthy frame (in fact, he's supposed to be the ninja frame). If you are not willing to adopt a stealth playstyle for a stealth frame, and find yourself experiencing difficulty, perhaps the issue may lie with you not having yet fully adapted to his changes, rather than Ash himself being "unusable" now.

Also, for the record, Saryn's extremely successful. She has multiple viable builds, a niche, and multiple interesting gameplay choices beyond just pressing 4 and clearing a room. For all the complaints made about reworked frames here, she is a prime example of a rework done well, even if she is a tad complex.