Reality of Riven System

[x213ll]

10 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

I like how ppl say the mods are bad when in the end they end up being better than anything else available. I also like when players complain about negative stats when half of them end up being beneficial since like corrpted mods they don't affect certain weapons in wayway and end up boosting the other stats (yes, having a negative stat boosts the positive ones)

Last but not least i like how players are so hungry for the perfect mods and call a semi perfect mod as bad, i guess the term ios instant gratification, they want to play less sorties, they want to spend less kuva but at the same time they want the very best things all at once.

Riven mods are long term project, something to keep you invested on the long term, they are not a "1 mission + perfect stats + discard the weapon + no grind"

Common sense needs to be used ppl

what you said is completely understandable and reasonable but, something you have to take into consideration is the fact that with the current system constantly rerolling a mod to try to get what you want can theoretically take an infinite number of rolls. that's something that is not ok within the standard of consistency with this game. something can be long term but also have a clear end goal, it's how syndicates are based but on a much lesser extent. this is my opinion of course and I understand where you're coming from.

[notlamprey]

6 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

I like how ppl say the mods are bad when in the end they end up being better than anything else available. I also like when players complain about negative stats when half of them end up being beneficial since like corrpted mods they don't affect certain weapons in wayway and end up boosting the other stats (yes, having a negative stat boosts the positive ones)

Last but not least i like how players are so hungry for the perfect mods and call a semi perfect mod as bad, i guess the term ios instant gratification, they want to play less sorties, they want to spend less kuva but at the same time they want the very best things all at once.

Riven mods are long term project, something to keep you invested on the long term, they are not a "1 mission + perfect stats + discard the weapon + no grind"

Common sense needs to be used ppl

Someone could just as easily say that "if DE had used common sense then we wouldn't have this mess of a mod system."

Invoking "common sense" doesn't really get us anywhere, I'm afraid.

My biggest concern is for the long-term health of the trade economy. Trade chat is already almost useless, thanks to constant Riven spam. The mods have non-standard stat scaling, so there is no real way to for players to agree on 'standard' pricing.

People have made plenty of other good points about the dangers inherent in this new system, so... the concerns are definitely warranted.

[Zebiko]

2 hours ago, Askell91 said:

Even if Rngesus burns in hell (where I think he should be) im not gonna touch this system EVER AGAIN.

I always wondered why name it after Jesus. Should be called RNG Devil. No one wants it or likes it.

[Askell91]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

I like how ppl say the mods are bad when in the end they end up being better than anything else available. I also like when players complain about negative stats when half of them end up being beneficial since like corrpted mods they don't affect certain weapons in wayway and end up boosting the other stats (yes, having a negative stat boosts the positive ones)

Last but not least i like how players are so hungry for the perfect mods and call a semi perfect mod as bad, i guess the term ios instant gratification, they want to play less sorties, they want to spend less kuva but at the same time they want the very best things all at once.

Riven mods are long term project, something to keep you invested on the long term, they are not a "1 mission + perfect stats + discard the weapon + no grind"

Common sense needs to be used ppl

Just look at how many times did i reroll all the mods. Now you realy think i expected fast results? You realy think i did not work to earn a good mod? Your common sense can go to where i think it should.

I spent hours upon hours for DAYS farming kuva even before the god blessed changes to get my favourite weapons in shape for the content what i want to do, and you just try to act like this? I think if you work for something it should earn you something. Not the big nothing. Whats sad is you will still think you are right in the end. Ty.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Askell91

[Kyronz]

Riven system means that in theory one could get a useful mod, however that it is so buried in RNG walls that trying to actually get one is pointless.

[KittyDarkling]

     Slightly off topic, but some advice for the OP: Unless a weapon's your absolute favorite weapon, don't roll it to 10. Going as high as 5-6 is usually enough to determine if you're going to keep the mod or melt it down into endo. It really is just easier to get a fresh copy of x weapon riven as people are reaching the point where they're off selling them for really cheap. I've actually gotten some deals in the 15-20p range. I know this may not be the advice you wanna hear but it's how you keep from burning out on the system, the rolls just get to kuva hungry otherwise.

    OT: I do feel like the OP must of had a really terrible string of luck, but based on my own experiences of having rolled all 15 (plus a few I've sold) riven mods come out at very worst "100% worth a slot" and at best out right doubling my weapon's dps, I'd say that the system as it is, is fine. I find it really hard to believe OP's luck is -that bad- but.. If it is it's a bad streak, and those can't last forever.

     Take a break from it, melt your 10s, sell any rivens that aren't your absolute favs for plat and just benefit off the system until you're ready to actually give it another go.

[Ironelle]

TLDR: you do not need optimal stats that you will never see.  You just need the mod to be effective at lvl 100.  If the stats are good enough, stop rolling.  Also the verdict is still out for me re: whether or not the RNG is reasonable right now.

_________

An observation I have is that there are 24 random stats, any of which can be desired depending on the weapon.  It seems to me you can roll the same stat 4 times, which is how you get a ridiculous 1 stat mod with 200 base damage on the Soma that was mentioned.  To put it into perspective, the odds that a player gets the 4 stats that they desire (i.e. optimal stats) is:

(1/24)^4 = 1 / 331,776

If I am wrong and you cannot role the same stat multiple times then it is 1 / 225,024, which from a user experience perspective is not materially different. 

This leads me to the conclusion that a cap on the kuva that can be charged for re-rolling is justifiable, though I am not sure what it should be.  2K sounds reasonable to me. 

I think what goes unsaid by DE as it appears to me, is that the primary goal for the system was to create a market for plat trading that drives plat sales, which is not in and of itself is a bad thing.   Making the weak underused weapons viable IMO is a worthy goal, but it is secondary to sales from DE's perspective.  I also think the current system achieves the secondary goal.  Given the odds in the current system, obtaining optimal stats is just not a rational goal, and may not be necessary to make that weak weapon end game viable.  The measure of the success of the secondary goal is whether or not an end game viable (effective at lvl 100 IMO) can be reasonably achieved for any given weapon.  So far my experience is mixed on this rolling on 2 different weapons so far.  1 appears successful the other not on about 5 rolls each, but I do not even try to think I can get an optimal roll.

Another consideration is the complexity of solutions.  Adapting the stat table on the mods to each individual weapon preferences is more complex than just balancing weapons on an individual basis.  there are 80 or so primaries that have all the values already that can be adjusted.  Giving each riven a unique table to describe what stats it can roll is more complex since it does not exist now, potentially up to 24 additional fields, where only 4 are required right now. 

Note to Mods.  I am not trying trying to discredit DE by suggesting a profit motive that they have every right to pursue and it is not my opinion that they should not pursue profit in the Riven system.

[Almagnus1]

What the system really needs is the ability to work with each stat, and not the mod as a whole.

This means being able to add stats to a Riven mod that's below a certain threshold, and also deterministically (NOT randomly) swapping out stats for ones that make sense for the weapon.

For example, I should be able to add stats to my Riven Dera mod, so it has 4 stats instead of 2 positive stats and a negative stat.  I should be select which stats I'm adding, and/or reroll the negative stat into a positive one.  It's got a good start with +Damage and +Fire Damage, but I don't think it's going to be worth the Kuva to attempt to reroll to something better.

If there's going to be penalties, at least give us an incentive for taking a weakness - like giving the bonus a multiplier for each weakness taken.  Thankfully my Riven Dera Mod's weakness is -Slash Damage (IIRC), so the weakness is essentially negated.

Either way, we need more control or the frustrations players are having with the system are going to continue to increase, and what should be a GOOD system is going to get flamed out of existence.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Almagnus1

[KIREEK]

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

My biggest concern is for the long-term health of the trade economy. Trade chat is already almost useless, thanks to constant Riven spam. The mods have non-standard stat scaling, so there is no real way to for players to agree on 'standard' pricing.

 

This isn't an issue to me and to many other players outthere since we have our own price, there is no standart price we use, we do not use warframe market, we treat the market as a free market, where all prices are fair and only trades where both agree with the pricing can actually be done.

We state a price regardless of what others say, so riven mod pricing is the same thing, i see no difference in it.

[KIREEK]

53 minutes ago, Askell91 said:

Just look at how many times did i reroll all the mods. Now you realy think i expected fast results? You realy think i did not work to earn a good mod? Your common sense can go to where i think it should.

I spent hours upon hours for DAYS farming kuva even before the god blessed changes to get my favourite weapons in shape for the content what i want to do, and you just try to act like this? I think if you work for something it should earn you something. Not the big nothing. Whats sad is you will still think you are right in the end. Ty.

The idea behind a reroll is to try and get something that you like better, even the worst outcomes out there are still good mods (except the ones where the damage drops to 0), you only reroll if you want to and i am positive no regular mod is better then the things you are getting.

Also, platinum is a currency, you can get something you like from trade chat.

On top of this you can always get a new mod from sorties and try 10 more rerrols on it, that's the idea behind it, after a while either you play sorties or you grind the kuva to do 1 extra reroll, either way DE succeeds at keeping you playing.

Yes, you may not like it, you may be forced to grind for kuva and you don't like the missions presented, but DE can't really help there, you either get plat, you get kuva or you get a new fresh mod, you can choose, you can do all 3 even, you can trade mods that you don't like for the ones you like, then reroll them.

[Acos]

Get rid of the completely arbitrary cap. 

[Askell91]

35 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

The idea behind a reroll is to try and get something that you like better, even the worst outcomes out there are still good mods (except the ones where the damage drops to 0), you only reroll if you want to and i am positive no regular mod is better then the things you are getting.

Also, platinum is a currency, you can get something you like from trade chat.

On top of this you can always get a new mod from sorties and try 10 more rerrols on it, that's the idea behind it, after a while either you play sorties or you grind the kuva to do 1 extra reroll, either way DE succeeds at keeping you playing.

Yes, you may not like it, you may be forced to grind for kuva and you don't like the missions presented, but DE can't really help there, you either get plat, you get kuva or you get a new fresh mod, you can choose, you can do all 3 even, you can trade mods that you don't like for the ones you like, then reroll them.

Did you even bother reading anything so far? Thats what i was doing for 1 and a half week now.... go for the plat version? Sorry im not insane enough to spend 1-2k plat on a mod. Don't know why do you try so hard to prove the opposite but gogo powerranger :'D.

(DE can't do anything? Yes they can. 

1. make a cap for kuva rerolls max at 10

2. make the system similiar to what they have in Terra where you can pick wich stat you want to keep and wich to reroll.

See? They can do)

Edited November 29, 2016 by Askell91

[Lost_Cartographer]

If DE really wanted us to use underused weapons, they'd have the disposition effect ALL mods in the game.  Overused = current numbers, underused gets bonuses, like +50% to each mod's numbers.  So now Serration goes from 165% to 248% on whatever weapon no one really ever touches.

That would go a LONG WAY to getting people to use weapons like the Karak in place of the Braton Prime.  Riven mods would be much more tolerable as the "gamble" mods they are now then.

But f*** actually solving the issue they claim to want to solve, right?

[ashrah]

4 hours ago, x213ll said:

very well-thought-out, and I like your idea of making it more of a novelty then something necessary. having wacky weapons definitely seems very fun. I still feel like there should be a way to work towards a mod you want, obviously taking into consideration what you just said, having the ability to somewhat control the mod you get like the effects of the mod would be very beneficial to the system's health, giving it more artificial longevity. although I'm having trouble trying to figure out how it would be implemented, either way great ideas. x2~~  >->=b

that can be done easy.similar to spell crafting in norrowing.... u can choice stats u like but depending of value incereseing how many slot points u need to  can fit that mod on wepon..

[Askell91]

2 hours ago, Ironelle said:

TLDR: you do not need optimal stats that you will never see.  You just need the mod to be effective at lvl 100.  If the stats are good enough, stop rolling.  Also the verdict is still out for me re: whether or not the RNG is reasonable right now.

_________

An observation I have is that there are 24 random stats, any of which can be desired depending on the weapon.  It seems to me you can roll the same stat 4 times, which is how you get a ridiculous 1 stat mod with 200 base damage on the Soma that was mentioned.  To put it into perspective, the odds that a player gets the 4 stats that they desire (i.e. optimal stats) is:

(1/24)^4 = 1 / 331,776

If I am wrong and you cannot role the same stat multiple times then it is 1 / 225,024, which from a user experience perspective is not materially different. 

This leads me to the conclusion that a cap on the kuva that can be charged for re-rolling is justifiable, though I am not sure what it should be.  2K sounds reasonable to me. 

I think what goes unsaid by DE as it appears to me, is that the primary goal for the system was to create a market for plat trading that drives plat sales, which is not in and of itself is a bad thing.   Making the weak underused weapons viable IMO is a worthy goal, but it is secondary to sales from DE's perspective.  I also think the current system achieves the secondary goal.  Given the odds in the current system, obtaining optimal stats is just not a rational goal, and may not be necessary to make that weak weapon end game viable.  The measure of the success of the secondary goal is whether or not an end game viable (effective at lvl 100 IMO) can be reasonably achieved for any given weapon.  So far my experience is mixed on this rolling on 2 different weapons so far.  1 appears successful the other not on about 5 rolls each, but I do not even try to think I can get an optimal roll.

Another consideration is the complexity of solutions.  Adapting the stat table on the mods to each individual weapon preferences is more complex than just balancing weapons on an individual basis.  there are 80 or so primaries that have all the values already that can be adjusted.  Giving each riven a unique table to describe what stats it can roll is more complex since it does not exist now, potentially up to 24 additional fields, where only 4 are required right now. 

Note to Mods.  I am not trying trying to discredit DE by suggesting a profit motive that they have every right to pursue and it is not my opinion that they should not pursue profit in the Riven system.

Just saying these are the "leftower". I let my mod "pad" omnomnom on 5-7 already. I just want to make my fav weapons worth using in long survs what we like thats all. But its kinda hard xD.

[KIREEK]

1 hour ago, Askell91 said:

Did you even bother reading anything so far? Thats what i was doing for 1 and a half week now.... go for the plat version? Sorry im not insane enough to spend 1-2k plat on a mod. Don't know why do you try so hard to prove the opposite but gogo powerranger :'D.

(DE can't do anything? Yes they can. 

1. make a cap for kuva rerolls max at 10

2. make the system similiar to what they have in Terra where you can pick wich stat you want to keep and wich to reroll.

See? They can do)

If we got the stats we wanted (and we would reroll them until we get the right positive and negative stats) then that would reduce the ammount of grind and would make trading nearly obsolete.

This would indeed be an issue if these mods were basic mods, instead this is something that you add after you have done your builds, so even if the system seems unfair to you, this never makes said weapons worthless (asside from very few exeptions).

Yes, i understand that you want things to be made easier and with less rng so that you don't lose that ideal stat you want, but on the global side of things and on the long term, this seems ok so far.

I also want the things you want, but i want them because they improve what we have now, i don't consider the current system bad in anyway.

[Askell91]

22 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

If we got the stats we wanted (and we would reroll them until we get the right positive and negative stats) then that would reduce the ammount of grind and would make trading nearly obsolete.

This would indeed be an issue if these mods were basic mods, instead this is something that you add after you have done your builds, so even if the system seems unfair to you, this never makes said weapons worthless (asside from very few exeptions).

Yes, i understand that you want things to be made easier and with less rng so that you don't lose that ideal stat you want, but on the global side of things and on the long term, this seems ok so far.

I also want the things you want, but i want them because they improve what we have now, i don't consider the current system bad in anyway.

Oh God.. Here we go again. What was the reason the Riven Mods was introduced? To liven up trade chat? NO. TO make old weapons actualy useable. If you add a limit how much Riven mods you can use on a weapon they will not become basic mods, and i don't want it to be EASYER i want it to be POSSIBLE to get a Riven mod what is actualy useable. You like the current system? Good, keep it. I wan't some improvements. This tread was made to point out flaws not to make you a white knight. Why do you try to force me into this "lazy guy want free stuff" seat? Dfk is your problem?

Edited November 30, 2016 by Askell91

[UrielColtan]

At first I didn't mind Riven mods, but that was because I was unaware of the random stats and gambling at the time. I don't like the concept, improvements being tied into random stats, or decided by the whims of gambling. I thought Warframe got rid of the random mods back in the early days because most people realised how awful the concept was. It sets a bad precedent too if they decide to expand the concept for mods in general. I don't think stuff like this should be encouraged, otherwise the devs may eventually feel confident in doing just that.

 

Thus far the only good thing about Riven are the fun unlock challenges. The unlocking should be tied to mods with set stats, not randomizers.

Edited November 30, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Almagnus1]

We really do need a way to add modifiers to the Riven mods that doesn't use RNG.

We also need to be able to increase the number of modifiers on Riven mods so we don't end up with a "useless" mod because it only has two bonuses, instead of 3 or 4.

[xattuu]

Something that I noticed with Riven is that, while low tier weapons have a strong disposition, making the roll attributes greater in value, increasing potential damage, it also increases the amount toward negative attributes. I rolled a Attica Riven (has a strong disposition) that was +125% crit chance +150% crit damage +100% Electric damage, and then -160% Multishot,.  I feel like the negatives should have smaller values, or be able to reroll 1 attribute, maybe not changing +/- but something. 

Then really weak Disposition mods, like the Soma, are still rolling +damage, +crit and crit damage with only about 60-80% difference between the strong and weak disposition mods.  It just doesn't makes sense to me

[kaliazane]

Look at the bright side, it's only matter of time before we get rivens for rest of weapons and even frames.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

Look at the bright side, it's only matter of time before we get rivens for rest of weapons and even frames.

No amount of Riven mods (or tentacles) will ever make Hentai Hydroid a good frame.

[Sziklamester]

this is just a lottery and a bandaid which actually make them profit because encourage the platinum sales. Not worth the time and often causes pain and salt. If they wanted really fix the old weapons and mods then they would have take their time and buff them.

[kaliazane]

11 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

this is just a lottery and a bandaid which actually make them profit because encourage the platinum sales. Not worth the time and often causes pain and salt. If they wanted really fix the old weapons and mods then they would have take their time and buff them.

They didn't want to fix anything, they wanted to introduce system that will be active for months to come and keep game alive.

[Sziklamester]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

They didn't want to fix anything, they wanted to introduce system that will be active for months to come and keep game alive.

True but if they solve problems too that overall could icrease the lifespan of the game and maybe the new players will not rage after few day of playing. There is a tons of halfbaked content with lot of potential which can itself extend the game but they never really finish nothing.