Bring back the Orokin GODS

[honeycream]

32 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

Still waiting for the reasonable argument for why the Orokin are better.

Me too, tbh. I've yet to find one.

[SeaUrchins]

The Orokin are better because they would provide an alternative. Having a choice is always better.

Who would stay a dull keeper of balance anyway if there were 2 factions: the boring Lotus kumbaya good-doers holding to her skirt and the empire of jolly villains with slaves and stuff?

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

bring em back so we kill them again 

works for me :D 

[Kaotyke]

4 hours ago, Rounpositron said:

I would love it if a lone Orokin is somewhere out there... Maybe they know a way to re-enslave Grineer dogs.

Did you do The War Within? Or do the Kuria poem?

We have already met 2 Orokin. And they DID re-enslave the Grineer, they are their Kweens.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[(PSN)robotwars7]

6 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

Ha, yeah, bring 'em back so we can kill 'em again. One death was fewer than they deserved.

amen to that, ballas will receive quite the punch from my Rhino prime's gilded Fist when i see him, he has a lot to answer for. the Orokin completely screwed everything up, and them trying to return would only bring more problems. the system isn't great, but if it weren't for the Orokin treating the Grineer like something scraped off the bottom of their gilded shoes, they wouldn't have rebelled and become an empire, and the Corpus wouldn't have the influence they have now. and if they had better controlled the Technocyte (or better yet, never made it, because Bio-weapons are a bad idea for everyone involved), we wouldn't be also fighting an unwinnable war against the worst parasitic infection ever created.

the Orokin can be summed up accurately in four words: they totally F***ed up. I really don't see how they could possibly restore any order to the system when they likely have less resources than we have, since most Orokin Tech is now in enemy hands, or was destroyed in the Old War. they have no moon base, and no way to get back to the Void. plus, who would even support them? would civilian colonists flock to be under the rule of people who started all this in the first place? probably not. they would have nothing, and would probably ask us for help. to which I would quite obviously say..

Spoiler

yes, but ONLY if you give me a shiny new weapon. and I can't promise I won't still double cross you after that.

 

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

7 hours ago, Blakrana said:

• Snip

well, there is the whole space momma calling us losers.

[disco_inferno6]

3 hours ago, Blakrana said:

 

Still waiting for the reasonable argument for why the Orokin are better.

The sole reason the Tenno killed the Orokin emperors is explained in the Second Dream: Revenge for the death of Margulis.

Had the Executors not decided to execute Margulis, the Tenno would most probably carry out the will of the Emperors untill today had their empire lasted.

That pretty much floors all of the amusing (lotus) arguments about the imaginary moral superiority of the Tenno.

 

 

As for why the Orokin were better, well... a civilisation so articulate and advanced is not only better. It shadows all beneath it.

Its only flaw was the hubris committed by the Emperors. And so they've lost control over the empire and so they paid the price.

 

The Tenno are merely the tools of Nemesis of the Orokin. The betrayer-children. And they have a price to pay too.

Edited December 7, 2016 by disco_inferno6

[folklore504]

4 hours ago, Blakrana said:

Seeing as the Grineer are the only one still around, and they're lead by surviving Orokin to wreak said havoc, not really much of a point.

As it stands, the Lorists seem to either be extinct or so rare they may as well be. Granted, the technological advancement may just not be enough to facilitate a recovery of Lora devices, seeing as the description in the Corrupted Ancient Synthesis seems to imply that a Lorist has skin laced with circuitry or the like.

It's also unclear yet if Dax are another 'made for function' race of which there's only one known Dax still alive, Teshin; he sure thinks he is at any rate. Poor bastard.

Considering that if it wasn't for Dr Tengus' unleashing it again after it seems to have been sealed away somehow, arguably yes, we were very effective.

Alas since that time, a particular idiot decided it'd be great to improve the Infested to also be able to affect inorganics, so putting the lid on them again is going to be quite the challenge. 

Killing combatants in a relatively swift manner is quite a bit different to taking children away from their families, crushing their minds and then stealing their bodies. Vor's Prize has the Lotus note that "A Tenno respects their enemy but shows them no mercy". So it's quite consistent with that outlook.

Soldiers go into battle knowing they risk death doing so. A child meanwhile should never be considered little more than a new "skinsuit" for some decrepit old wretch unwilling to die.

Teshin, Lotus, Darvo, Baro ki'teer, Maroo and Cephalon Simaris for specific individuals allied with the Tenno.

New Loka, Steel Meridian, Red Veil, Perrin Sequence, Arbiters of Hexis, Cephalon Suda are distinct allied groups.

Saying nothing of every operative, citizen or hostage we've ever rescued from Grineer, Corpus or Infested clutches. Every Tenno sympathiser in Origin, who risk execution by Grineer no less, are allies. All colonies aided and abetted by the swift resolution of Infested Outbreaks, or the sabotage and undercutting of Grineer and Corpus ships and forces. 

The only ones to call the Tenno traitors are the Corpus and Stalker...who's a huge hypocrite ever since The Second Dream, what with aligning with Hunhow just to get a shot at his revenge. You'd figure someone fixated on 'avenging the Orokin' would draw a line at sallying up with a creature that had been their archenemy.

If talking about the Player 'Best pay only' attitude, some people are just like that, but not all. 

If talking about actual setting characterisation...yeah. Some Tenno are straight up mercenaries. Others aren't. They're acknowledged as such in their own description after all, loyal only to one another.

Again, it's Grey v Gray morality. Orokin certainly aren't a lighter shade though, regardless of the general quagmire.

Nor would the Grineer, Corpus, Sentient, Infested.

All strands of conflict can find their source in the Orokin. Sure. They're responsible for the Warframe tech and all that...but seeing as they invented that because they'd rather make a lethal weapon than progress on the humanitarian aid of survivors of a horrific Void incident, hard to think that they did it out of the goodness of their hearts. Mostly cause they didn't...the Warframe project was just another tool to serve their ends, and like all their other tools, it backfired on them.

Risks one takes when taking arms up against the Tenno, no more no less. On a battlefield, people get killed...it'd be strange if they didn't.

Better to die as oneself, than spend an eternity as a broken mockery of everything one ever was.

We don't control the Towers. We don't control the Solar Rails (the Grineer seem to have command of that). We don't have carte blanche control of ever ship, colony or system by mere genetic matters. Can't see how handing enemy groups technology would be a smart move. Peace offering wouldn't make sense, seeing as the only reason the Tenno are active in the current era is cause the Grineer tried to murder them in their sleep, or Corpus absconding with Warframes and materials to hawk on varying markets.

Still waiting for the reasonable argument for why the Orokin are better.

From available lore and information shown in TWW.  It can be said for certain that the Dax were at least altered humans at one point.  As to whether or not the Orokin high council specifically bred people for that, I don't know but it would probably be a good bet.

As for the arguments in favor of bringing the Orokin back.  I still have seen nothing that convinces me, that the Orokin high command wouldn't just make the situation ten times worse and far more chaotic.  Never mind the now confirmed body stealing, that higher Orokin members practiced.  I shudder at the thought if a high ranking corpus member got brain jacked. 

[Blakrana]

44 minutes ago, disco_inferno6 said:

As for why the Orokin were better, well... a civilisation so articulate and advanced is not only better. It shadows all beneath it.

For such an "advanced civilisation" they sure weren't advanced ethically, preying on their own subjects just to keep living longer...which is rather striking considering Ballas and others literally laughed off having been killed by Ordan Karris, who was using bone knives at that; why the Continuity ritual if they had such capabilities? Food for thought.

Then there's their consistent abuse and debasement of anything they didn't consider suitable; the eventual Grineer Queens were originally shunned merely for being twins, the Grineer were treated as expendable slaves, the Lorists were mocked and insulted barring when they were employing their healing abilities, the Tenno were denied their humanity, their history and the only shot they had at regaining normal lives, once Transference Therapy was subverted for the Warframe Project.  

Technological advancement doesn't mean much when the spirit of a nation is twisted and rotten.

46 minutes ago, disco_inferno6 said:

Its only flaw was the hubris committed by the Emperors.

Only flaw?

Corruption, slavery, dogmatic control over all aspects of society and technology, the rampant abuse and neglect of anything that wasn't Orokin higher caste...using their own citizens, children no less, to serve as replacement bodies when they wore their own out, bid upon like one would expect at a slave auction.

Further, we've only had the Emperors acknowledged once: the Stalker's codex. Everything else we've seen relating to Orokin matters has primarily related to the Executors, namely Ballas in particular. They're surprisingly absent in all this when you'd think they'd be more pertinent...so we're not really in a position to say what the Emperors' dispositions were. Indeed it's getting to the point where it's reasonable to question if they held any real power, seeing as it's the Executors whose favour determined whether or not you'd live or die.

Really shining example of integrity, the Orokin.

54 minutes ago, disco_inferno6 said:

The sole reason the Tenno killed the Orokin emperors is explained in the Second Dream: Revenge for the death of Margulis.

Had the Executors not decided to execute Margulis, the Tenno would most probably carry out the will of the Emperors untill today had their empire lasted.

It's a reason, and it's not necessarily the case it's the only reason. It's entirely possible to argue that some were motivated by the tenet to protect the weak after all; compared to the Orokin, everyone was weak and they had built their empire on their suffering. We still have too little information for the events that transpired, let alone what led up to them, to make a concrete claim as to why it happened. Good guesses and deductions, but still room for reasonable doubt.

As for the Executors, if they'd let Margulis keep working on her therapy there wouldn't have been an issue in the first place. Saying nothing of the general abuse and mistreatment of the Tenno from square one unlikely to have endeared them to Orokin sensibilities. But that's the constant trend with the Orokin; they didn't respect anyone or anything that wasn't them unless they were being immediately useful. No longer useful or fail...execution seemed the popular response.

Really, the greatest way the Orokin could have gone to ensuring their rule lasted would have been to employ simple human decency to their subjects. No more, no less. 

Were they less eager and willing to abuse and mistreat the Grineer and Tenno, and potentially the Sentients as well (_{seeing as we still don't know what set the war off in the first place}), there may have been less willingness among those groups to rebel and strike back.

1 hour ago, disco_inferno6 said:

The Tenno are merely the tools of Nemesis of the Orokin.

Interesting. Either you're just using the word Nemesis of which the second definition seems most apt due to context, or you're invoking the Greek Goddess Nemesis who's job it was to punish hubris, which you have been using to describe the Orokin. In either event, it comes back to a manner of inevitability; that the Orokin had sealed their fate and were to eventually face punishment/downfall for their conceit.

Considering the Orokin Fragment states the Orokin Era "ended in a divine realisation of their own ignorance"...not exactly far off the mark so far as metaphors go.

Problem is that Nemesis is oft used in a context of justice...something that strictly speaking you don't want to imply here, seeing as it's acknowledging the Orokin had it coming for their conduct and actions.

2 hours ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

there is the whole space momma calling us losers.

Strictly speaking it was just 'Lo' but if we're going there...

Ballas himself has declared that the Tenno 'weren't human anymore', needing to be 'destroyed' and were 'devil minds'. Looking at the Mag Prime codex, the focus Zero-tech soldier considers the Tenno 'monsters', the Warframe an elaborate carapace; they even consider they'd be better off shooting the Mag than worrying about fighting the Sentients. The Excalibur Codex refers to them as 'twisted', 'afflicted' and 'rejects' whilst it's possible to interpret the denial of children on the Zariman in Ember Prime's codex an early instance of Orokin dehumanisation of the Tenno.

If we're going to base our support on 'who insulted us least'...then it's clearly the Lotus.

[Newnight]

Long live lord ballas :3 (if he is still alive...in someway) 

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

9 hours ago, Blakrana said:

Snip

XD I was being humorous. I agree with all your points, just taking a stab at our lovely space momma cause I found the whole thing enjoyable. I hate our edgelord part of the community that want space mom dead. Even a good parent makes mistakes

Edited December 7, 2016 by (PS4)FunyFlyBoy

[Blakrana]

3 hours ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

XD I was being humorous. I agree with all your points, just taking a stab at our lovely space momma cause I found the whole thing enjoyable. I hate our edgelord part of the community that want space mom dead. Even a good parent makes mistakes

No worries, just doesn't quite translate in text so well.

As the adage goes 'To err is human, to forgive divine'. Both Teshin and Lotus have had their errs which have, in the wider sense, been rather appreciable. I mean hey, fallible characters with good intentions trying to make the best of things...it's good fun.

[Kaotyke]

17 hours ago, (PS4)FunyFlyBoy said:

well, there is the whole space momma calling us losers.

Considering how some of us can be... can you blame her?

Grandma called me worse at times whenever I startled her years ago.

She worked in the Marines forces of my country, just to give you an idea.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[OniDax]

16 hours ago, disco_inferno6 said:

The sole reason the Tenno killed the Orokin emperors is explained in the Second Dream: Revenge for the death of Margulis.

Had the Executors not decided to execute Margulis, the Tenno would most probably carry out the will of the Emperors untill today had their empire lasted.

That pretty much floors all of the amusing (lotus) arguments about the imaginary moral superiority of the Tenno.

 

 

As for why the Orokin were better, well... a civilisation so articulate and advanced is not only better. It shadows all beneath it.

Its only flaw was the hubris committed by the Emperors. And so they've lost control over the empire and so they paid the price.

 

The Tenno are merely the tools of Nemesis of the Orokin. The betrayer-children. And they have a price to pay too.

The sole reason the Tenno killed the Orokin was because the Lotus, at the command of Hunhow, manipulated the Tenno into doing it. Now, did the Tenno have sufficient motivation to kill the Orokin? Yes, but let's not forget that it was a Sentient plot that even led the Lotus to make herself appear as Margulis. It was the Sentient plot for the Lotus to infiltrate the Orokin empire and get the Tenno to kill the Orokin. And from there, the plan was to then destroy the Tenno. Instead, Lotus put them to sleep. The point is, the deciding factor in whether or not the Orokin would've been killed isn't whether or not they executed Margulis. Because the Lotus drove the Tenno to turn against the Orokin. So they would've still killed the Orokin.

I do agree that the Tenno have no moral superiority. Now, the Orokin did take children as body-slaves, so they weren't above reproach either. But I do think that the Tenno should have a price to pay for their own violence and brutality. And the Lotus, being a Sentient who manipulated the Tenno, should also have a price to pay.

[(PSN)FunyFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Venom-Snake said:

Considering how some of us can be... can you blame her?

Grandma called me worse at times whenever I startled her years ago.

She worked in the Marines forces of my country, just to give you an idea.

Definitely can't. Especially after those death threats she got because Loser Tenno didn't like how things were changing over Vacuum Precepts I believe.

[Rounpositron]

On 12/7/2016 at 6:10 AM, Venom-Snake said:

Did you do The War Within? Or do the Kuria poem?

We have already met 2 Orokin. And they DID re-enslave the Grineer, they are their Kweens.

And yet the Grineer dogs are still tearing the system apart.

[Kaotyke]

2 minutes ago, Rounpositron said:

And yet the Grineer dogs are still tearing the system apart.

On whose orders?

Answer: The Kweens.

[Rounpositron]

Just now, Venom-Snake said:

On whose orders?

Answer: The Kweens.

Real Orokin wouldn't want degenerate clones to rule the System.

[Kaotyke]

7 minutes ago, Rounpositron said:

Real Orokin wouldn't want degenerate clones to rule the System.

Pfff! Right. You speak as if they had a choice in the matter.

[METAL_BAWKSES]

Only gods I want to see added to Warframe are the Chaos Gods, but that will nevner happen. As for the Orokin. Any race that thinks the infested was a good idea, should stay gone.  

[motorfirebox]

On 12/6/2016 at 8:05 PM, disco_inferno6 said:

The sole reason the Tenno killed the Orokin emperors is explained in the Second Dream: Revenge for the death of Margulis.

Had the Executors not decided to execute Margulis, the Tenno would most probably carry out the will of the Emperors untill today had their empire lasted.

That pretty much floors all of the amusing (lotus) arguments about the imaginary moral superiority of the Tenno.

Having a personal reason for defeating someone who has done horrible things to a bunch of people doesn't change the fact that you're defeating someone who has done horrible things to a bunch of people. Whether or not one can consider the Tenno morally superior, the Orokin were absolutely morally bankrupt.

On 12/6/2016 at 8:05 PM, disco_inferno6 said:

As for why the Orokin were better, well... a civilisation so articulate and advanced is not only better. It shadows all beneath it.

Its only flaw was the hubris committed by the Emperors. And so they've lost control over the empire and so they paid the price.

That's... a deeply flawed argument. Technological superiority and moral superiority are two completely different things. You can look throughout history and find lots and lots of instances of technologically superior people committing the worst crimes in history.

[folklore504]

@AntoineFlemming     It should be mentioned that Orokin crimes against kidnapping children for experimentation goes much further, that though is found in TWW.

 

3 hours ago, Rounpositron said:

Real Orokin wouldn't want degenerate clones to rule the System.

Using the "no true scotsman" fallacy isn't really a good idea.  In particularly since the Orokin used the dax, and many other tailor made tools to control most aspects of intra-solar life.  This was done with the goal of providing the Orokin high ups of whatever they wanted. 

[OniDax]

I want the Orokin to come back and reclaim their towers, just so that we can have them as a faction to fight. Maybe they can have different ranks of Dax (Bronze, Silver, and Gold, or something of the sort). I'm getting bored of the Grineer, Corpus, and Infested. Didn't mention the Sentients because they don't count. They're just two enemy types, and I doubt there will be any more Sentients.

[JalakBali]

On 12/7/2016 at 0:38 AM, disco_inferno6 said:

Their hubris was not that of indifference. It was of conceit and of overestimation of their power, However, it is unclear which where the exact factors that caused the "Collapse" (see Codex).

But look at us, the Tenno. Lead by a sentient fragment who has hidden from us the truth "in order to protect us", what have we done which deems us superior to the Orokin in any sense ? What is there now in our star system, apart from grief, chaos and conflict ?

All this, while our greatest enemies, those which know no emotion or mercy, gather their strength.  

Our greatest enemy is lack of purpose. We were the executioners of the Orokin with no will of our own. No goal, no purpose, except to do their bidding. The Grineers? The Corpus? They couldn't even keep their leaders safe from our blades. We could destroy them completely like we did the Orokin. But then, what would that serve? The Infestation would spread further, unchecked and unchallenged and we don't have to numbers to stop that kind of massive outbreak. The colonies would suffer the most.

 

The Lotus lied to us and hid our true nature because to know our true self means to know our lack of destiny. We are puppets with their strings cut off, dancing to the tunes from whoever caught our fancy. We're a blade without a wielder, our power exists to destroy "enemies" yet we are enemy to no one, as nothing could hurt us. Reviving the Orokin will do no good as putting back our shackles still would not give us a true purpose. The Orokin failed, like many empires before it, and died. The gods are dead and their children are fighting over the charred remains of their home.

[Navarc]

On 12/8/2016 at 5:43 AM, AntoineFlemming said:

I want the Orokin to come back and reclaim their towers, just so that we can have them as a faction to fight. Maybe they can have different ranks of Dax (Bronze, Silver, and Gold, or something of the sort). I'm getting bored of the Grineer, Corpus, and Infested. Didn't mention the Sentients because they don't count. They're just two enemy types, and I doubt there will be any more Sentients.

DE has stated probably over 10 times now in the streams that there's more warrior sentients coming, including the ones with randomized weaponry you can take from their corpses.
I would assume that this means there are more sentients enemies coming eventually. Don't forget the Hunhow archwing bossfight inevitably coming in a few years.