Riven Slots Post-19.3.2 Feedback

[erny0507]

4 hours ago, polarity said:

I have no issue with DE introducing new ways for them to make money off the game, provided they are honest about that intent.

The problem is that they said that the capacity was restricted by the database exponential growth. But then they make the slots available with plat. Riven are already in a bad spot except for trader, for them are the second coming of jesus, for the rest this makes a far away feature that feels bad and build upon its failures more and more.

Paying for slots of weapons and warframes is fine, but that not the case with rivens, they cost as much as a warframe slot and they are not even worth the same, weapon slots are actually cheaper then the slots for rivens ._.

[Troll_Logic]

6 hours ago, Daggerpaw1 said:

If not then, at the very least, I'd like to be told that these ideas are not being considered.

Dude, the forums are like prayer.  You can ask, but you won't always get what you want and there just isn't enough time for DE to reply to every post.

This is the system.  This isn't unique to Warframe.  This is how all of the forums for software work.

[Volinus7]

Look at how you can get negative net damage by rivens, how you are forced to use whatever rng gives you, and how it logically failed in balancing.

The whole system is just pointless and kinda like undercooked instant noodles. 

Once you have enough population any dumb idea will work apparently.

[Troll_Logic]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

Look at how you can get negative net damage by rivens, how you are forced to use whatever rng gives you, and how it logically failed in balancing.

Maybe he can look, but I'm not.  I'm avoiding riven like the plague.

[P0Pz]

They said, riven slots are limited, bc of this many different random stats, which needs  too much data source...

Why in gods name did they implement this if they know... it is bad.

Don't get me wrong... i have np with the limition on the riven slots it selve or that you can buy additional riven slots for plat... its all ok for me... 

IF the Riven MODs are worth that!

Kela's MODs:

 

Are there for the SAME REASON... pushing low lvl weapons to a higher level of useage. 

THEY ARE GUARANTEED TO GET 1 OUT OF ALL ~ EVERY RUN...why not rivens?

Back to the point "to much random stats, to cause to much data source usage"...

Why they used all 3 stats to be random? Why not just 1 state is random and 2 stats are fix? (Waaay less source needed) Why not create 3 fix stats, create for every weapon 1/2 MODs with fix stats and give the players a way to stack the another same mod on it to get a high "tier" +1 stacked mod with double the stats then a "normal unstacked' mod.

For me...they rushed to push rivens into the game... now they are under pressure to push the "next content"...riven secondarys...

STOP

DE relax, step back...and watch how you can improve this unfinished system. Fo not rush. We..players...like new contents BUT... we loooove much more if you say:

"Okay guys..stuff runs wrong...we will look into it and make it better - so you players can enjoy our game"

You will earn all respect from us...why?

You hand us QUALITY out, not paperboy crap rushed and thrown in the window ... what happends? Broken window...broken riven system...

I and i guess a lot here have trust in you guys, DE, thats why we are here supporting you guys... we are with you...with the game... we both share  the same love.

Just hold on with pushing the riven to fast and deep into the game before a way back is to late.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by P0Pz

[Sahansral]

Too much I read from DE about Rivens is ambivalent, contradicting. Too much RNG, variable stats, rerolling and kuva farming. Rivens widen the meta gap, make reading the trading chat a misery.

The price tag won't affect me, but reassures me to not touch this system with a ten foot pole until there's a complete redesign.

[AdunSaveMe]

I'd like to see the proof that rivens take a significant amount of database space, and that the limit is actually a matter of storage. I'd like to see some sort of proof, some sort of REASON, as to why this isn't simple a plat grab. 900 plat to get to the max space for a mod type, AND they're introducing more and more types of riven mods. We'll have secondary rivens soon, then melee rivens. And we aren't even allowed to have more freedom with them, or to have better kuva costs?

DO NOT cool down on this. DO NOT let them ignore this until we forget about it. You want to make claims? Back them up and we'll accept them.

Edited December 14, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[Mudfam]

Honestly I think most of the threads posted on the issue of rivens are just asking for too much.

Sortie rewards have to be diluted. We can't get our heart's desire every single time we do the sortie. If anything we should ask for a bit less RNG involved so we don't end up with one person never getting anything they want and feeling burned from sorties while someone else gets great rewards almost every day.

Paying for riven slots seems like a bit of a low blow given the circumstances, but honestly if we really want more than 15 rivens...

Easily getting the riven you want with the stats you want is not going to happen realisically. The grind is real and everywhere. Obviously DE wants getting what we want something that takes time (and unfortunately some trading), otherwise you'd be out of things to do very quickly.

And so on and so forth.

 

However there is one major issue with rivens that I think must absolutely not be overlooked. The cycle system.

The problem with the cycle system is that we get our shiny new riven, we tediously invest ever more time and effort into rerolling it, and if we don't get lucky our riven just gets worse and less valuable until we have to dissolve it. This is extremely demotivating, not only does our riduculously hard work lead to nothing, but we end up losing what we had to begin with, which is not right. This is not grinding, it's cruel and absolutely horrible for the player.

Riven mods should not have cycles on them. We should not be investing so much in ultimately making our mod useless. No cycles and a higher fixed cost would be ok. At least it will no longer feel like you've worked your *** off only to finally receive a solid poke in the eye for your efforts.

[Extroah]

Wow some people here. Riven Mods are fine the way they are, but the price for the Slots indeed are excessive, but you dont have to buy them.

And that argument "Some few people are lucky and get a riven mod while others get nothing even if they put more work/effort into it" Just how the hell does somebody put more Effort/Work into it when you can only get Rivens from Sorties.. meaning everybody has to play the exact same Missions...where's the logic at? Nowhere to be seen? Okay.

All i can read out of this Thread is basically "buuhuu i want an OP Dread and Tonkor and Simulor Riven with +1000% Damage and Crit Damage and +500% instakill on sight buuhuuu and i want it on my first Sortie run buuhuu i didn't get one of the before mentioned yet but other people did, therefore i want it to be way easier to get them because i put so much more work into it buuhuuu"....lol.

Also inb4 locked.

[VonDodo]

8 hours ago, RistN said:

1) 31 likes so far from beginner's who don't have 10p on their accounts.2) Don't think of me as elitist but there was popular topics week or two before asking for this.3)I personally am content with this.If you want Rivens work to own them more.4)Don't forget that platinum is kind of free, people just need to learn how to get it...like everything else in this game.

1) yes if you don't agree its from "poor beginners" if you agree is a popular topic

2) Its quite difficult after you wrote 1

3) Game =/= work

4) Any single tradeable platinum comes from real money. Maybe not your moneys and from someone else moneys. See again 2.....

[Xzorn]

I literally don't want any of that for Riven mods.

A Kuva cap defeats their purpose as a long term play solution. Most of the other things diminish it. No thanks. I want something to do that lasts more than a month.

Sorties I'm behind. Dead-End rewards removed please.

[P0Pz]

33 minutes ago, Extroah said:

Wow some people here. Riven Mods are fine the way they are, but the price for the Slots indeed are excessive, ...

- So....

You said it yourselfe. Just for you:

Why is the price for slots so excessive? BC the heavy amount of randomly created stats, which are a lot...  (source DE) needs to much data-source on server.

So why are there then to so much randomly created stats? BC the Riven mechanic needs it to generate every time  RNG over RNG mechanic.

So YOU kinda complain about a "result" of the core problem...but deny to accept the core problem.

You missed the point by not watching the overview. Thanks for the try.

 "buuhuuu"....lol.

- ehm ya... look above... buuh ya selfe first. Remember... there are always 3 fingers pointing to yourselfe when u point to someone.

Also inb4 locked.

- For what reason? WE are constructive ... are you?

 

[Extroah]

4 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

 

What core Problem? The only Problem for me is the excessive cost of the Slots. The Limit on how many Mods you can have is to not flood their Database with all the randomly generated Mods. It's a fair point, can't denie that, but raising the Limit only by buying Slots is not a good move in my opinion.

Other than that.. what's the Problem? People not instantly getting God-Stats for their Got-Tier Weapons? Or People not getting a Mod for their God-Tier Weapon and insted for an underused Weapon? The Core Problem imho is that there are Mods for said God-Tier Weapons. Rivens were made so people use underused Weapons more, which works perfectly fine, but People want their fav. Meta Weapon to be even better, that's the Problem here, and those are the majority of People that complain. Simulor, Tonkor Users and the likes. I've seen and met a lot of People that like Rivens because they made their Underused/Underpowered Weapon good again.

[Xzorn]

This may come as a shock to some but the only other lasting end-game progression in this game is stacking plat.

Riven mod slots for plat is perfectly reasonable.

Anyone who's at the 15 cap is obviously buying Rivens to begin with to push their progression so what's the difference.

 

[Mudfam]

19 minutes ago, Extroah said:

Other than that.. what's the Problem? People not instantly getting God-Stats for their Got-Tier Weapons? Or People not getting a Mod for their God-Tier Weapon and insted for an underused Weapon? The Core Problem imho is that there are Mods for said God-Tier Weapons. Rivens were made so people use underused Weapons more, which works perfectly fine, but People want their fav. Meta Weapon to be even better, that's the Problem here, and those are the majority of People that complain. Simulor, Tonkor Users and the likes. I've seen and met a lot of People that like Rivens because they made their Underused/Underpowered Weapon good again.

This is just a baseless assumption and mostly incorrect from what I've seen. Sure, there's people who want exactly that, but most of the complaints I've seen are actually from people who made a genuine effort to buff an underpowered weapon and felt cheated. One of the biggest flaws I see in the riven system, that I've tried to address in other threads, is that it's much easier to get a powerful riven mod for those meta weapons, because they generally have a lot of great stats you can effectively buff. This makes the RNG odds for a good meta weapon mod vastly better.

Unfortunately I don't see them ever changing this fundamental flaw, even though it wouldn't be difficult. The system just implicitly favours meta weapons and they represent the most obvious and for some desirable path. The ugly ducklings of weapons are in a much weaker position to benefit from riven mods due to the comparitively small number of stats that can benefit them.

Personally I have no interest in these. I got a mod for the soma and I promptly sold it. I'm trying to buff weapons I wouldn't normally use, and I bought ~30 rivens for them. Let me tell you, it's tragically hard to get a riven mod that's better than a regular one. The lack of positive stats that matter and the flawed ones that put them out of the meta make effective modding much harder.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Mudfam

[(PSN)NastyNath74]

19 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

This may come as a shock to some but the only other lasting end-game progression in this game is stacking plat.

Riven mod slots for plat is perfectly reasonable.

Anyone who's at the 15 cap is obviously buying Rivens to begin with to push their progression so what's the difference.

 

Like this guy said, if you have 15 Riven mods you've obviously paid plat or traded for them. I'm guessing you paid more than 20p per mod too so why the out cry of it's too much? I don't understand. On ps4 veiled riven are selling around 50p and unveiled decent rivens with good stats over 100p not sure on PC pricing but if you have 15 I'm guessing you spent hundreds on them. 20p is nothing imo

Edited December 14, 2016 by (PS4)NastyNath74

[Mudfam]

37 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I literally don't want any of that for Riven mods.

A Kuva cap defeats their purpose as a long term play solution. Most of the other things diminish it. No thanks. I want something to do that lasts more than a month.

I agree that some often requested changes are somewhat unreasonable, but being opposed to this I cannot understand.

Rerolling should indeed take time and effort, not be an easy path to the "perfect mod". RNG with very bad odds more than takes care of that, and the (base) kuva cost could be higher. What should absolutely not be a thing is investing all that time and effort into eventually making your mod worthless. Repeatedly not being rewarded due to RNG so that you keep trying is one thing, being punished for your efforts is another entirely.

In practice this actually makes the system shorter term. You quickly reach the point where it's no longer worth investing in your mod. You get stuck, or demotivated. Without this dead end you could always strive for a better roll. You can go get some kuva and give it a shot, without ruining your precious mod or it becoming just impossible.

Getting a mod and investing heavily in it should mean something. It should not lead to having to throw it away. That's way too harsh an outcome, it's extremely demotivating when you're left with nothing and face having to start the entire fruitless process all over again.

Don't forget rivens are also being cycled by type, there isn't an endless supply of rifle or other mods at any given time.

[Extroah]

34 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

This is just a baseless assumption and mostly incorrect from what I've seen. Sure, there's people who want exactly that, but most of the complaints I've seen are actually from people who made a genuine effort to buff an underpowered weapon and felt cheated. One of the biggest flaws I see in the riven system, that I've tried to address in other threads, is that it's much easier to get a powerful riven mod for those meta weapons, because they generally have a lot of great stats you can effectively buff. This makes the RNG odds for a good meta weapon mod vastly better.

Unfortunately I don't see them ever changing this fundamental flaw, even though it wouldn't be difficult. The system just implicitly favours meta weapons and they represent the most obvious and for some desirable path. The ugly ducklings of weapons are in a much weaker position to benefit from riven mods due to the comparitively small number of stats that can benefit them.

Personally I have no interest in these. I got a mod for the soma and I promptly sold it. I'm trying to buff weapons I wouldn't normally use, and I bought ~30 rivens for them. Let me tell you, it's tragically hard to get a riven mod that's better than a regular one. The lack of positive stats that matter and the flawed ones that put them out of the meta make effective modding much harder.

Fair enough. I can agree with the Part that underused Weapons mostly don't have the Stats to benefit from Riven Mods. That's an Issue i've previously made a similar Thread about, but mine was more about removing or reducing negative I/P/S Stats from Rivens. My Example was around that if you have a Weapon that has 25 Slash, 5 Impact and 5 Puncture but 2.5% Status Chance, and you roll a Mod with +100% Status Chance and -100% Slash.. you will end up with a Weapon that has NO use anymore. 100% buff to 2.5% Status Chance will still leave you with nothing, and now you don't have Slash anymore either. That's especially painfull on underused Weapons as they do have such low Stats.

[Xzorn]

20 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

I agree that some often requested changes are somewhat unreasonable, but being opposed to this I cannot understand.

Rerolling should indeed take time and effort, not be an easy path to the "perfect mod". RNG with very bad odds more than takes care of that, and the (base) kuva cost could be higher. What should absolutely not be a thing is investing all that time and effort into eventually making your mod worthless. Repeatedly not being rewarded due to RNG so that you keep trying is one thing, being punished for your efforts is another entirely.

In practice this actually makes the system shorter term. You quickly reach the point where it's no longer worth investing in your mod. You get stuck, or demotivated. Without this dead end you could always strive for a better roll. You can go get some kuva and give it a shot, without ruining your precious mod or it becoming just impossible.

Getting a mod and investing heavily in it should mean something. It should not lead to having to throw it away. That's way too harsh an outcome, it's extremely demotivating when you're left with nothing and face having to start the entire fruitless process all over again.

Don't forget rivens are also being cycled by type, there isn't an endless supply of rifle or other mods at any given time.

 

You make progression every time you roll. You just don't see it. It's a matter of probabilities.

Ever increasing Kuva costs means you will eventually junk the mod and seek a new one for that weapon which retains value to the mods themselves not just their rolls.

Your personal cut off point for "Worth my time" isn't really relevant to the system. You simply have average rolls because you were willing to put average time into it.  While someone who invests weeks upon months for that 90% perfect will not only get more playtime but be better rewarded for that time invested.

The only  problem I see is that Riven mods are not actually common like the Sorties rewards tables pretends and The cycling Riven types was unconfirmed last I check and also a horrible idea.

The biggest problem with Riven is the Sorties loot table not the Riven system itself.

[Cimbro94]

16 hours ago, Sirfol said:

Riven Mod have mod in the word for describing they're fuctionality, not they're actual impact. ALL RIVEN HAVE CASUAL STATS THAT MAKE THEM UNIQUE, so they need a unique space under your account. u can argue anything, but.this.are.hard.fact.

So if DEVs made riven MOD stats completely random, why not make them fix percentage proportional to riven disposition, and divide the riven disposition instead of three levels (strong, neutral and faint) into ten levels? So at least there will be more balanced stats and the number of possible riven mods is FIXED, and so there won't be any database storage issue...

Sometimes i don't know the actual reasons behind a system/mechanic and what is that supposed to....

[Mudfam]

3 minutes ago, Extroah said:

Fair enough. I can agree with the Part that underused Weapons mostly don't have the Stats to benefit from Riven Mods. That's an Issue i've previously made a similar Thread about, but mine was more about removing or reducing negative I/P/S Stats from Rivens. My Example was around that if you have a Weapon that has 25 Slash, 5 Impact and 5 Puncture but 2.5% Status Chance, and you roll a Mod with +100% Status Chance and -100% Slash.. you will end up with a Weapon that has NO use anymore. 100% buff to 2.5% Status Chance will still leave you with nothing, and now you don't have Slash anymore either. That's especially painfull on underused Weapons as they do have such low Stats.

Yes.

My proposed solution was to make riven mods affect base stats. Things like crit chance, crit damage, Status and others would receive flat increases. E.g. +10% crit on a soma is a relatively small buff, on a weapon with little or no crit it's huge and allows new ways to mod it. IPS would work a bit like elementals, adding a new base damage type off the initial total, this adds new damage types to a weapon instead of just being a useless modifier, and again allows new builds and potentially exposing hidden strengths in weaker weapons.

This would make riven mods both implicitly more balanced and much more interesting. Way less stats that just don't work and some actually new and unique ways to build weapons, that you may not have considered until you got that particular riven. This is exactly what the DE advertised the system as being intended for.

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

I'd like to see the proof that rivens take a significant amount of database space, and that the limit is actually a matter of storage. I'd like to see some sort of proof, some sort of REASON, as to why this isn't simple a plat grab. 900 plat to get to the max space for a mod type, AND they're introducing more and more types of riven mods. We'll have secondary rivens soon, then melee rivens. And we aren't even allowed to have more freedom with them, or to have better kuva costs?

DO NOT cool down on this. DO NOT let them ignore this until we forget about it. You want to make claims? Back them up and we'll accept them.

Please tell me where DE mentioned storage as the problem?
They mentioned database impact.

That's a hek of a lot bigger category than storage.

Database Impact covers such things as:
-Overhead in memory
-Impact to queries to the database in terms of speed
-Size on disk
And a lot more besides.

So yes, while size on disk of these mods can be largely ignorable, what isn't so ignorable is the potential impact in terms of querying the database.

Simple fact of working with databases:
Adding millions of small rows can have a larger effect on database performance and query performance than could be expected.  Especially on systems where its queried thousands of times per second.
Even if each row is small they can still have a larger impact on performance than their size would indicate.

Please stop focusing on "storage" as DE never mentioned that.
They mentioned "Database impact" which is a much broader category.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[P0Pz]

1 hour ago, Extroah said:

"What core Problem? "

- Riven with the current RNGs stats. Which results in to much different stats which can be changed at any time again. Which results in to much data. Which again results in limition of riven mods per player. This is the risen why maybe only half of the playerbase will buy additional riven slots with pl, till they reach another limition of slots.

Your are just pointing to the end of a long chain of results buddy.

 

"The only Problem for me is the excessive cost of the Slots. The Limit on how many Mods you can have is to not flood their Database with all the randomly generated Mods. It's a fair point, can't denie that, but raising the Limit only by buying Slots is not a good move in my opinion."

- jep. Bc it is just a bypass or try to help riven exist in the system. Without fixing the core problem (riven rngs).

 

Other than that.. what's the Problem? People not instantly getting God-Stats for their Got-Tier Weapons? Or People not getting a Mod for their God-Tier Weapon and insted for an underused Weapon? The Core Problem imho is that there are Mods for said God-Tier Weapons.

- I am not asking at anytime i need direct a 100% to get my 1k% + damage riven (just fun number). I said we need a stabil riven system that runs for all. Still rng (the game needs it..and i enjoy grinding!) But this kind of rng for this kind of mods is just overdone. It is to much. That is the reason why they create so much problems. Not only the double/trible rng also the never ending scaling of costs to reroll stats is out of space with that heavy interacting rngs. 

 

"Rivens were made so people use underused Weapons more, which works perfectly fine,..."

- Kela's MODs? What are they for? Aah ya... the same reason! But better integrated into the game. Oh well there is 1 RNG in there... out of all mods kela can drops...you get always 1! Always! Some are crap, some decent but the 2/3 good one it is worth to go for. Why? Bc after i got...it wont change into a worse one! Nore does it cost me ressources to keep a chance to make it somehow usefull.

Riven system is currently for the game a very bad one. The riven idea is great. But without deeper thoughts.

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by P0Pz

[Mudfam]

43 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

You make progression every time you roll. You just don't see it. It's a matter of probabilities.

Ever increasing Kuva costs means you will eventually junk the mod and seek a new one for that weapon which retains value to the mods themselves not just their rolls.

The only  problem I see is that Riven mods are not actually common like the Sorties rewards tables pretends and The cycling Riven types was unconfirmed last I check and also a horrible idea.

The biggest problem with Riven is the Sorties loot table not the Riven system itself.

Sorry, but you are deluding yourself if you think this system supports progression rather than a downward spiral. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. The odds are tiny and 99.99% percent of the time you are harming your progress.

It's the same problem you have with sorties, but with an added mechanic that takes it to an entirely new extreme. With sorties you're not guaranteed to ever get the reward you want. Now imagine if the more sorties you did (and perhaps repeatedly got trash for) the chance of getting a good reward got exponentially lower.

 

43 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Your personal cut off point for "Worth my time" isn't really relevant to the system. You simply have average rolls because you were willing to put average time into it.  While someone who invests weeks upon months for that 90% perfect will not only get more playtime but be better rewarded for that time invested.

And here you're talking absolute nonsense. That's not how RNG works, by no stretch of the imagination does it work like that when the odds are poor.

I've rolled ~30 riven mods, a LOT of times. I bought a resource booster on day one of TWW and been farming kuva like crazy, also using my smeeta. I've spent a few thousand platinum on fresh riven mods. I randomly got one pretty good riven mod for a weapon I never used before, which is great. I also spent a fortune and huge amounts of time into trying to get a good riven for a relatively underpowered weapon. All I have to show for it are a tonne of mods (9 for the same weapon) with way too many rolls that can't even replace something like heavy caliber.

An I going to invest another month of hard tedious work and thousands more platinum into trying to buff that weapon which anyway won't be able to keep up with all the meta ones? That would be the very definition of insanity. No, I'm definitely done with rivens unless this changes.

As someone who has already done everything else there is to do in this game, this means I'm done with Warframe for now. Having done everything there is to do in warframe, this is by far the most unpleasant and unrewarding experiennce I've had with it.

 

And if anyone wants to pull out the usual "it's RNG, you were just unlucky" BS, work out the odds or look at what the community has woked out already. They're so bad that you could easily spend hundreds of years grinding hard and get nothing. You need to have a delusional faith in your own luck to face those odds and expect to beat them. This system is pure insanity. There are millions of players and some of them occasionally flaunt their amazing mod in trade chat, don't let this fool you into thinking it means you can get it too.

The system specifically NOT designed to let you achieve a very powerful mod, that was deliberately made almost impossible. Unfortunately, what it wanted to do, which is give you diverse and interesting mod alternatives, doesn't actually work, at all.

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Mudfam

[Somniavi]

Well if they do decide to listen, don't expect it anytime around the date they say they will deliver it on or with anywhere close to the amount of content you would expect from how much time was spent on it. At least if this year in the games history says anything.