Cap the Cumulative Login System's Unique Rewards

[Liminal]

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

The OP's argument is "I want what everybody else has, when they have it. I dont mind putting in the time to get it, but I want everybody else to stop getting rewards tied with progression so I can catch up."

Then you read it wrong. And he presented quite a few more arguments than "I want".

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

This is a feedback forum, like you said, and im providing feedback to his feedback.

But you've said "that's the way it is" (paraphrasing) quite a few times now, that's not feedback.

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I DO want items that I can make use of in game... like a new weapon, frame, or mod. If I make it to the 1000th day, I want something good for it.

You complain about his "I want" but you use that very same argument.

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

What does NOT make sense is to stop that because some guy lost interest in the game for 300 days and wants a limit so he can "catch up". The truth is, he had the same opportunity as everybody else right from the beginning.

Why not? I mean, it doesn't even have to stop, just maybe rubberband a bit, or slow down. The positives outweight the negatives. OP talked about this: about new and returning players, they'd help keep the game alive.

I don't want to drag a friend into this and have him see the Zenistar 5.0 and go "what do you mean I have to log in every single day for 3 years for it?". He wouldn't quit over that, but I'm sure it wouldn't feel right...  similar to finding out he'd never ever be able to get Excal prime no matter how hard he tried. One single thing may not make someone quit, but the sum of all the little things that a new player may consider daunting or disheartening could ... and oh, boy! I think WF has quite a lot of them!

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

So whats a reasonable cap when we cant tell the future anyways?

Now that's a discussion I'd be interested in. I believe it'd be worth finding that out! For example, I don't agree with the OP that 500 would be excessive.

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

The entire premise behind his feedback to change the system is purely based on his own failure.

Not the entirety of it. Again, you're ignoring quite a few the points raised.

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Unfortunately this game's lifespan is directly tied to money and income. When the money stops, so does development.

That's irrelevant, since logging in doesn't mean DE gets money. The biggest "whale" in WF could just as well log in only on weekends.

11 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

So yeah, suck it up, buttercup. You messed up. Only thing you can do is make the best of it while the game lasts.

"That's the way it is" has no place in a feedback forum.

[LuckyCharm]

But does it punish you? really? are there any missions you simply cant do without those log in items? no. 

By day 300 you should probably be able to do everything in the game anyway and be right there with the rest of us complaining that there is no endgame content that challenges you. extra stats from a few mods is meaningless then

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Clearly many people like the current system

it does what it is supposed to do, give interesting Rewards for having played the game over an extended period of time.
i don't like it or dislike it, it does what it is supposed to do. and everyone is equal in getting those Rewards.

since it's equal, the suggested complaint here is just contrived. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Faulcun]

17 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Then you read it wrong. And he presented quite a few more arguments than "I want".

Ive read it again, and I fail to see anything that doesnt ultimately fall into a reflection of his own failure. Some of the arguments are hypotheticals without any facts to back it up. An argument can be made in both directions about which part of the playerbase spends or buys platinum.

17 hours ago, The_Doc said:

But you've said "that's the way it is" (paraphrasing) quite a few times now, that's not feedback.

It is if the OP is oblivious to the reality of life. As somebody else has already stated, this is what happens when losing teams start getting trophies for participation. Snowflakes everywhere....

17 hours ago, The_Doc said:

You complain about his "I want" but you use that very same argument.

No, the OP made the suggestion that some special sigil is good enough for everybody having logged in for excessive days. If its all about how somebody feels, then he is ignoring how the people that have logged in for 400, 600, 1000 days feel. Using myself as an example, I would not be satisfied with something I personally care nothing about.

17 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Why not? I mean, it doesn't even have to stop, just maybe rubberband a bit, or slow down. The positives outweight the negatives. OP talked about this: about new and returning players, they'd help keep the game alive.

I don't want to drag a friend into this and have him see the Zenistar 5.0 and go "what do you mean I have to log in every single day for 3 years for it?". He wouldn't quit over that, but I'm sure it wouldn't feel right...  similar to finding out he'd never ever be able to get Excal prime no matter how hard he tried. One single thing may not make someone quit, but the sum of all the little things that a new player may consider daunting or disheartening could ... and oh, boy! I think WF has quite a lot of them!

Sorry, but thats life. Nobody is rubberbanding me on my way to a million dollars. And believe me, Im trying really really hard. I own a business, i employ people, and i work very very hard. But ive accepted the fact that I will not be a millionaire. Just because my neighbor bought a Ferrari, doesnt mean the government is gonna give me a sweet tax return so I can buy one too because it makes me feel bad....

17 hours ago, The_Doc said:

That's irrelevant, since logging in doesn't mean DE gets money. The biggest "whale" in WF could just as well log in only on weekends.

It is completely relevant because regardless if there is a limit/cap on rewards, or not, if game goes offline (most likely due to insufficient revenue), you will not be able to log in to collect your rewards regardless because the game would be over for everybody. This simply could happen well before any of us reach MR30 for that matter.

Perhaps a limit is made with enough content to reach MR30 or a little more (extra points). You still have to figure we've already been playing for almost 4 years, this system has been live for 1. Im personally at 380something and counting. Forget reasonable, lets focus on realistic. However long the system as been out, would require that same amount of time to acquire the same rewards. The longer it goes, the more time is required for somebody just starting. The question comes into play, will the game last long enough to be able to reach the same rewards?

Because no, if I had to log in 600 days to get that reward, then so should you. If you missed out on that due to a lack of interest at the time, then tough nuggets. You should not get to accomplish the same thing in less time because "feels".

Now, if they make it an option to buy it directly, then Im cool with that. You can have as many as you want if you are spending your own money to get it. THATS a fair trade. You are giving something in return to make up the time. As long as the item is available to everybody at the time of purchase, im fine with that. Otherwise you should have to put forth the same effort as everybody else.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Faulcun

[Drasiel]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

it does what it is supposed to do, give interesting Rewards for having played the game over an extended period of time.
i don't like it or dislike it, it does what it is supposed to do. and everyone is equal in getting those Rewards.

since it's equal, the suggested complaint here is just contrived. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's pretty much the way I feel. This system is far superior to the original login system and despite health issues costing me months of accrued login days I know that when I can play again I'll be able to get back on my way to the zenistar.  I can't think of something much fairer than that.

8 hours ago, Callback said:

You're not supposed to defend it, you're supposed to discuss any merits the current system has, so we can reach an understanding of what the community wants.

 

What we have instead are a bunch of apologists and trolls oscillating between "It's fine" and outright attacks against me for daring to question the status quo.

 

So far the one actual thing I hear is "I like that I am rewarded for my time and dedication."  Great.  My proposal retains that by suggesting that the system continue providing rewards for milestones, just changing the type of reward from progression-based exclusives to valuable goodies you normally can't get easily or for free.  And nobody has argued why that would be in any way inferior in satisfying that same function.

Actually defending the current system is a perfectly reasonable response. Feedback is essentially opinion. Other people are of the opinion that your idea is not as good as the current system. Therefore their response that they disagree with you can be as cognitively demanding as a six paragraph essay compiling counter points and deconstructing your argument or as crude as "fock off mate, ur dumb me like now system". Between English second language, age differences, schooling difference, and native language proficiency there is a very wide range for quality of communication skills being displayed here. 

Anyway the long and the short of it is: "no I don't agree  with you"  in all its various incarnations is equally valid to the topic at hand. Sometimes other people don't see any merit in suggestions and that should still be shared. 

I disagree that the items should be changed to non game affecting rewards. The original login system did that already and along with some other issues it was awful, boring, and ignored (unless you didn't log in for a week to force a reset and make it more likely to get a plat diacount). I love knowing that If I login for 300 days I get a neat melee weapon. I can't wait to see what it is at 500. 

[Tyrian3k]

People claiming it rewards dedication: It really doesn't. If you want to reward dedication, make it a reward for every hour played instead of every day logged in. That would allow you to actually work towards your goal instead of being forced to the same pace as everyone else.

[Faulcun]

13 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

People claiming it rewards dedication: It really doesn't. If you want to reward dedication, make it a reward for every hour played instead of every day logged in. That would allow you to actually work towards your goal instead of being forced to the same pace as everyone else.

Then you'll just get people sitting in a solo mission hiding somewhere the enemies cant get them, and leaving to go to work or school for 8 hours at a time.

[Tyrian3k]

47 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Then you'll just get people sitting in a solo mission hiding somewhere the enemies cant get them, and leaving to go to work or school for 8 hours at a time.

We do still have the AFK timer, but even without it, we could limit the rewards to one per mission to minimize the effectiveness of AFKing.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Tyrian3k

[(XBOX)BluAina]

Calling for a change from simply logging into the game and rewarding those who do it?! Come on bro and this "catching up?" Come on 

[ElocFreidon]

Good arguments. Does this mean Excalibur Prime can be available?

[-cS-dalonico]

On 22/12/2016 at 1:43 PM, TheMetrocop said:

the rewards aren't pivotal to the game.

they're just sigils, potatoes, and one or two arguably good weapons.

it's not a big deal if you miss them.

primed fury aint a big deal? lmaooooooooooooooo (it is.)

[Tyrian3k]

11 minutes ago, ElocFreidon said:

Good arguments. Does this mean Excalibur Prime can be available?

I wouldn't care, but without the consent of all founders, DE's hands are bound.

[.corvon.]

6 minutes ago, -cS-dalonico said:

primed fury aint a big deal? lmaooooooooooooooo (it is.)

not if you're a zarr or tigris fanboy.

and/or you build for damage.

[HoloShaii]

On 22-12-2016 at 7:51 PM, Callback said:

But TWW is a goal all players can catch up to on their own time.  They're not forbidden from progressing more than 1 quest for every quest released.  It's an entirely false dichotomy.

Firstly it's a login reward, the only thing you have to do is login, you can also do that on days you're not going to play the game. If they're too lazy to login once a day to get a weapon, it's probably not worth getting for them.
Secondly, it's 2 weapons and 2 mods which aren't even top-tier and thus aren't even needed to get an optimal setup. (the zenistar even got an indirect nerf last patch, due to the nullifiers)

[HoloShaii]

Also, it's a god damn virtual item you're crying about. Pulling newer players forward is hugely unfair to the people who've dedicated years logging in every day by then, just cause you can't stand not having every single item in the game.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, -cS-dalonico said:

primed fury aint a big deal? lmaooooooooooooooo (it is.)

Its actually not. Sure its a good mod, but it didnt change anything about any weapon that you couldnt already succeed with prior. Ex: If you could go an hour survival with nikana before, that mod isnt going to magically allow you to go any further than before. And if you couldnt make an hour, I doubt that mod is gonna get you there on its own merit alone.

Bloodrush, and body count.... now those are game changers, and theyre not even primes.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Faulcun

[Liminal]

22 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Ive read it again, and I fail to see anything that doesnt ultimately fall into a reflection of his own failure.
Here's the thing. That's circular reasoning. You keep saying "his own failure" and "his choice". Well, that's a significant fallacy you're commiting. You cannot define his failure by using the very rules the thread talks about.
"X should change, since Y has these issues in my opinion."
"You're saying that because of your own failure."
"Why?"
"Because X says you should do Y."

Some of the arguments are hypotheticals without any facts to back it up. An argument can be made in both directions about which part of the playerbase spends or buys platinum.
Yes there are hypotheticals of course. But neither the op nor those opposed are using that many facts, so it's guesswork and opinion. There are some truths in the op and other observations for which the conclusion depends on each person's pov.

• It not only discourages, but actively punishes breaks from the game.
  It discourages it (fact), it punishes (that's debatable, some people would say reward, while others would agree)
• It prohibits both new and returning players form ever catching up.
  Fact, a new player cannot catch up to the newest item, since there will always be a newer one (unless a cap is set).
• It creates an increasingly large divide among the comunity
  Fact. That's undeniable, the goalposts will keep advancing while new players will be more and more behind the later they join the game. The gap will get larger every 100 days.
• Warframe is a grind
  Definitely a fact :P
• tend to have people binging on them for a while, growing tired, taking a break, and returning later
  Not definitely 100% sure, but it would seem to be the case, as many veterans have posted in the 1000+ vet experience thread.
• A system that punishes players for taking breaks leads them to overexert their patience with the system, and leads to complete burnout and animosity towards the game, frequently resulting in lost players.
  It is coherent with the previous points but it's not a fact. It's an observation that can be argued for sure. I'm pretty sure burnouts being common in WF is true. We'd need evidence to this being a common cause for lost players.
• Returning players are hugely important for an MMO to survive.
  I cannot say but I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. It would seem reasonable at least. WoW does seem to thrive on "relapses".
• That's highly discouraging.  The idea of never being able to catch up to certain players no matter what you do is not something you want any player to think.  New players instead should think, "This could be you.  Just go out and earn it."
  It refers to how someone would feel, so it's far from factual, but I don't think any reasonable person would claim most new players would feel happy about it.
• And then there's my case, as a returning veteran.  
  Personal pov. This was used throughout the thread to try and discredit the OP regardless of the rest of the post.
• Having a few unique rewards in the system is fine.  
  Conjecture, for all we know it's the worst thing in the history of mankind. Or the best.
• As long as the system is capped off on those rewards beyond a reasonable point, it gives everyone a goal that they can eventually reach.  
  The "reasonable point" is subjective, the goals would in most cases be achievable by anyone so I guess it's explained wrong, the idea I think was: "make it so players can see that they can reach every goal within a reasonable time".
• Old players feel ok taking breaks knowing when they return they can resume right where they left off.  
  Some would agree, some wouldn't, but it is a fact that a cap would let people take breaks.
• Having a few unique rewards in the system is fine.  
  Funnily enough, that's not a fact.
• There is a good balance to be struck here. The current system just falls far short of it.
  Opinion.
• It needs to be capped off
  Opinion supported by the thread. Kind of the whole point.
• And keep the game open for all kinds of players to be able to enjoy.
  Wishful thinking.

It is if the OP is oblivious to the reality of life. As somebody else has already stated, this is what happens when losing teams start getting trophies for participation. Snowflakes everywhere....
"Millennial-hating", really? Well that came out of nowhere. I know it's trendy to hate "the everyone gets a trophy generation" but come on.

No, the OP made the suggestion that some special sigil is good enough for everybody having logged in for excessive days. If its all about how somebody feels, then he is ignoring how the people that have logged in for 400, 600, 1000 days feel. Using myself as an example, I would not be satisfied with something I personally care nothing about.
So you are using a personal opinion to attack op's opinion (which is only partially personal). That won't really lead anywhere.

Sorry, but thats life. Nobody is rubberbanding me on my way to a million dollars. And believe me, Im trying really really hard. I own a business, i employ people, and i work very very hard. But ive accepted the fact that I will not be a millionaire. Just because my neighbor bought a Ferrari, doesnt mean the government is gonna give me a sweet tax return so I can buy one too because it makes me feel bad....
Nonsense. A game is a game. Stop comparing it to your job or to real life, games have their own sets of rules and goals. They need to be profitable, fun, engrossing, compelling, etc. Just because you have great work ethics doesn't mean you need to translate that into requirements for a game. Just because you are a very polite person doesn't mean you have to treat NPCs with respect (player on player interaction is different). You may be the most law abiding citizen on the country but you still like to commit crimes on GTA and gank+rob others on DayZ and that's fine.
These are ingame rewards, the mechanics don't need to reflect real life at all.

It is completely relevant because regardless if there is a limit/cap on rewards, or not, if game goes offline (most likely due to insufficient revenue), you will not be able to log in to collect your rewards regardless because the game would be over for everybody. This simply could happen well before any of us reach MR30 for that matter.
I was talking about this false idea that logging in every day means you deserve more because you contribute more to the game. It's false. Contributing means spending money in the game, so assuming that players that log in every day are the ones that keep WF alive is a fallacy.

Perhaps a limit is made with enough content to reach MR30 or a little more (extra points). You still have to figure we've already been playing for almost 4 years, this system has been live for 1. Im personally at 380something and counting. Forget reasonable, lets focus on realistic. However long the system as been out, would require that same amount of time to acquire the same rewards. The longer it goes, the more time is required for somebody just starting. The question comes into play, will the game last long enough to be able to reach the same rewards?
Probably not, but we don't know.

Because no, if I had to log in 600 days to get that reward, then so should you.
"then so should you" is kind of what's being argued here. Back to the circular reasoning thing: saying "Things should stay like this because they are like this" isn't logical.

If you missed out on that due to a lack of interest at the time, then tough nuggets. You should not get to accomplish the same thing in less time because "feels".
And I guess here we're back at the "omg special snowflake carebears" thing ... yup, that'll get the point accross.

Now, if they make it an option to buy it directly, then Im cool with that. You can have as many as you want if you are spending your own money to get it. THATS a fair trade. You are giving something in return to make up the time. As long as the item is available to everybody at the time of purchase, im fine with that. 
It wasn't suggested but it'd be a good move imo.

(Using multiple quotes is hell so I just responded in it.)

^{_{Merry Christmas for those who celebrate it, happy gift day to the rest of us!}}

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

Here's the thing. That's circular reasoning. You keep saying "his own failure" and "his choice". Well, that's a significant fallacy you're commiting. You cannot define his failure by using the very rules the thread talks about.
"X should change, since Y has these issues in my opinion."
"You're saying that because of your own failure."
"Why?"
"Because X says you should do Y."

His failure is what sparked this thread in the first place. He failed to log in or over a year, and now he is disappointed by his OWN decision because he cannot have special item at the same time as somebody else. Thats not a fallacy... thats literally what happened by his own admission. I dont even know why thats even a discussion at this point.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

Yes there are hypotheticals of course. But neither the op nor those opposed are using that many facts, so it's guesswork and opinion. There are some truths in the op and other observations for which the conclusion depends on each person's pov.

• It not only discourages, but actively punishes breaks from the game.
  It discourages it (fact), it punishes (that's debatable, some people would say reward, while others would agree)
• It prohibits both new and returning players form ever catching up.
  Fact, a new player cannot catch up to the newest item, since there will always be a newer one (unless a cap is set).
• It creates an increasingly large divide among the comunity
  Fact. That's undeniable, the goalposts will keep advancing while new players will be more and more behind the later they join the game. The gap will get larger every 100 days.
• Warframe is a grind
  Definitely a fact :P
• tend to have people binging on them for a while, growing tired, taking a break, and returning later
  Not definitely 100% sure, but it would seem to be the case, as many veterans have posted in the 1000+ vet experience thread.
• A system that punishes players for taking breaks leads them to overexert their patience with the system, and leads to complete burnout and animosity towards the game, frequently resulting in lost players.
  It is coherent with the previous points but it's not a fact. It's an observation that can be argued for sure. I'm pretty sure burnouts being common in WF is true. We'd need evidence to this being a common cause for lost players.
• Returning players are hugely important for an MMO to survive.
  I cannot say but I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. It would seem reasonable at least. WoW does seem to thrive on "relapses".
• That's highly discouraging.  The idea of never being able to catch up to certain players no matter what you do is not something you want any player to think.  New players instead should think, "This could be you.  Just go out and earn it."
  It refers to how someone would feel, so it's far from factual, but I don't think any reasonable person would claim most new players would feel happy about it.
• And then there's my case, as a returning veteran.  
  Personal pov. This was used throughout the thread to try and discredit the OP regardless of the rest of the post.
• Having a few unique rewards in the system is fine.  
  Conjecture, for all we know it's the worst thing in the history of mankind. Or the best.
• As long as the system is capped off on those rewards beyond a reasonable point, it gives everyone a goal that they can eventually reach.  
  The "reasonable point" is subjective, the goals would in most cases be achievable by anyone so I guess it's explained wrong, the idea I think was: "make it so players can see that they can reach every goal within a reasonable time".
• Old players feel ok taking breaks knowing when they return they can resume right where they left off.  
  Some would agree, some wouldn't, but it is a fact that a cap would let people take breaks.
• Having a few unique rewards in the system is fine.  
  Funnily enough, that's not a fact.
• There is a good balance to be struck here. The current system just falls far short of it.
  Opinion.
• It needs to be capped off
  Opinion supported by the thread. Kind of the whole point.
• And keep the game open for all kinds of players to be able to enjoy.
  Wishful thinking.

So lets shorten this down by what you have suggested is fact.... because the facts are what matter, right?

• It not only discourages, but actively punishes breaks from the game.
  It discourages it (fact), it punishes (that's debatable, some people would say reward, while others would agree)

You say it discourages, I say it encourages. Either way, some people arent discouraged by this system. That makes the statement an opinion. You either care enough about it to log in every day, or you dont.

• It prohibits both new and returning players form ever catching up.
  Fact, a new player cannot catch up to the newest item, since there will always be a newer one (unless a cap is set).

Catch up to what though.... The system? Or other players? The system is mere availability of an item. If he is trying to catch up to other players, then there are a multitude of factors that would allow him to "catch up". People come and go.... and as other players take breaks, he has the opportunity to "catch up" or surpass them. As time goes on, there might be less and less people to figuratively "catch up" to.

While at the same time, if he himself continues to take breaks every couple months... then he'll never catch up to anything at all and we'll be right back here discussing why it is or isnt his own damn fault. Real discouragement would be if it were consecutive logins that reset when you missed a day. This is specifically why they made the system accumulative instead.

• It creates an increasingly large divide among the comunity
  Fact. That's undeniable, the goalposts will keep advancing while new players will be more and more behind the later they join the game. The gap will get larger every 100 days.

OP specified progressive rewards which would be anything tied to mastery. So the gap would be every 200 days. Thats approximately every 6 1/2 months. Im sorry.... but I absolutely cannot take the notion seriously that somebody will disappear for 6 months or longer and have a reasonable expectation to not miss something...

• Warframe is a grind
  Definitely a fact :P

Yup. Its also free to play. That means if you want it for free... you have to put forth the EFFORT.... and not disappear for a year. Again, in this specific case, I would not be opposed to a monetary option that perhaps decreases the closer you get to the actual reward.

• tend to have people binging on them for a while, growing tired, taking a break, and returning later
  Not definitely 100% sure, but it would seem to be the case, as many veterans have posted in the 1000+ vet experience thread.

I am the OP of that thread. I havent worked on compiling the information for a bit as ive been very busy. But Im still working on it and will have information on all of those things. But the statement here contradicts the statement about divide as the OP is suggesting that people, and yourself citing veterans, take breaks. Therefore its not unreasonable to assume that OP would be able to "catch up" while others are taking breaks. My opinion is that OP is chasing a ghost. Im sure there will be a group of people in the "top 1%" so to speak, that will log in every single day.... again if OP expects to be among the 1%, taking breaks is not how to accomplish that.

• Old players feel ok taking breaks knowing when they return they can resume right where they left off.  
  Some would agree, some wouldn't, but it is a fact that a cap would let people take breaks.

But thats exactly how the system works now already. If you acquired 155 days, and you take a break for a year, when you log in again..... you'll be at 156. Right where you left off. A cap has nothing to do with that. A person who did not take a break for a year deserves to have an item before the person who did. I mean taking a break.... is a conscious choice NOT to play the game. So when you get back, you can continue your progress from the point you left off at. That IS reasonable.

 

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

"Millennial-hating", really? Well that came out of nowhere. I know it's trendy to hate "the everyone gets a trophy generation" but come on.

Its not trendy... its a systemic degradation of our society's ability to be productive members. This whole idea is of a socialist nature. I have no intention of doing all the work required so somebody else can do half of it and gain the same benefits. This game is constantly changing..... the idea has always been get it while you can. If you stop playing, sorry.... you might miss out on something. That is a very reasonable expectation.  Even if somebody takes a break and misses an event weapon.... whos to say they wont be on another break when the opportunity arises again to obtain that weapon a second time? I mean what am I supposed to say here? Oh.... you missed it twice? Send in a support ticket and DE might just give you one for coming back... 

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

So you are using a personal opinion to attack op's opinion (which is only partially personal). That won't really lead anywhere

No, Op was speaking his opinion of a sigil is good enough, as fact. Im discrediting his "fact" by informing that not everybody agrees, which highlights his statement as an opinion.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

Nonsense. A game is a game. Stop comparing it to your job or to real life, games have their own sets of rules and goals. They need to be profitable, fun, engrossing, compelling, etc. Just because you have great work ethics doesn't mean you need to translate that into requirements for a game. Just because you are a very polite person doesn't mean you have to treat NPCs with respect (player on player interaction is different). You may be the most law abiding citizen on the country but you still like to commit crimes on GTA and gank+rob others on DayZ and that's fine.
These are ingame rewards, the mechanics don't need to reflect real life at all.

First of all, I take pride in how I conduct myself in game and out. Personally Im not really in to games like GTA or DayZ for the very reasons you listed.

Aside from that, its not just a game, or any other. Online gaming is merely an extension of ourselves in a virtual environment. This community thrives on instant gratification. DE recognizes this and purposefully capitalizes on it. Having good work ethics is something everybody should strive to have in every aspect of life. The fact that somebody is online does not give them the excuse to be asshats because internet. Whether you like to admit it or not, these interactions online or in any capacity shape who we are in real life.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

I was talking about this false idea that logging in every day means you deserve more because you contribute more to the game. It's false. Contributing means spending money in the game, so assuming that players that log in every day are the ones that keep WF alive is a fallacy.

No it doesnt... supporting or contributing to the game is as simple as playing the game, Learning the systems, reporting bugs, teaching or helping others, etc etc. That is what keeps WF alive.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

Probably not, but we don't know.

Thats exactly my point. Because of the fact that we dont know what will happen, if you make the choice to not play the game, then you must accept if you miss something, or something changes while you are gone.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

"then so should you" is kind of what's being argued here. Back to the circular reasoning thing: saying "Things should stay like this because they are like this" isn't logical.

No, things should stay like they are because it shouldnt change because somebody feels bad about making a poor decision. Its no more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

And I guess here we're back at the "omg special snowflake carebears" thing ... yup, that'll get the point accross.

We're far beyond trying to get a point across. Take responsibility for your actions and earn the rewards. I would have thought this was common sense.

1 hour ago, The_Doc said:

It wasn't suggested but it'd be a good move imo.

5p per day early is fair in my opinion.

[Tyrian3k]

On 24.12.2016 at 0:42 AM, Faulcun said:

It is if the OP is oblivious to the reality of life. As somebody else has already stated, this is what happens when losing teams start getting trophies for participation. Snowflakes everywhere....

Funny how you say this when the very thing you are defending is by definition a participation trophy.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

I wouldn't mind a 500 day cap or able to claim the daily login reward via phone app.

[DrBorris]

Are you all really missing the point that bad? This is about adding a cap to unique daily rewards, not removing them. And to that I agree, imagine being a new player and seeing that your had to wait 1000 days to get... Something. Waiting a year is one thing, two is another, but that would be very discouraging. 

IMO, the "sundial rifle" should be the last unique reward, from then on just have escalating potatoes and sigils. 

 

And FYI Zenistar is absolutely a worthwhile reward with very unique gameplay along with being a very good weapon. Another boring axe that is basically a skin is one thing, Zenistar is another. 

Edited December 25, 2016 by DrBorris

[Faulcun]

19 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

Funny how you say this when the very thing you are defending is by definition a participation trophy.

By definition, you are correct. Mainly because there are no winners or losers, which is also my point. To quote Drasiel on the first page, the OP is " viewing the log in rewards as a race with the other players when they are more like a hiking trail that people take at their own pace."

I simply dont think the OP should be able to take a free ride on the chair lift to the top.

[Liminal]

On 12/25/2016 at 3:46 AM, Faulcun said:

His failure is what sparked this thread in the first place. He failed to log in or over a year, and now he is disappointed by his OWN decision because he cannot have special item at the same time as somebody else. Thats not a fallacy... thats literally what happened by his own admission. I dont even know why thats even a discussion at this point.
Again, if you define the failure by the very system being discussed it is circular reasoning. I presented the example as clearly as it could ever be:
"X should change, since Y has these issues in my opinion."
"You're saying that because of your own failure."
"Why?"
"Because X says you should do Y."

So lets shorten this down by what you have suggested is fact.... because the facts are what matter, right?

(...)

You say it discourages, I say it encourages. Either way, some people arent discouraged by this system. That makes the statement an opinion. You either care enough about it to log in every day, or you dont.

Discouraging and encouraging are two sides of the same coin, by encouraging logging in every day you discourage taking breaks.

(...)

Catch up to what though.... The system? Or other players? The system is mere availability of an item. If he is trying to catch up to other players, then there are a multitude of factors that would allow him to "catch up". People come and go.... and as other players take breaks, he has the opportunity to "catch up" or surpass them. As time goes on, there might be less and less people to figuratively "catch up" to.

While at the same time, if he himself continues to take breaks every couple months... then he'll never catch up to anything at all and we'll be right back here discussing why it is or isnt his own damn fault. Real discouragement would be if it were consecutive logins that reset when you missed a day. This is specifically why they made the system accumulative instead.

Catch up to the release of new items. Not as in "get it the day it's out" but being reasonably behind (in grinding terms I assume). It not about other players but about game content. Everything in the game is within your reach, except for an item that may be behind a 400 day wall you cannot overcome in any way (other than waiting), no matter how much you grind or how much you pay.

I do agree this system is better than the previous one though.

(...)

OP specified progressive rewards which would be anything tied to mastery. So the gap would be every 200 days. Thats approximately every 6 1/2 months. Im sorry.... but I absolutely cannot take the notion seriously that somebody will disappear for 6 months or longer and have a reasonable expectation to not miss something...

Of course you'd miss stuff, but everything else in the game you can catch up with by farming hardcore or simply paying. These things... not so much.

(...)

Yup. Its also free to play. That means if you want it for free... you have to put forth the EFFORT.... and not disappear for a year. Again, in this specific case, I would not be opposed to a monetary option that perhaps decreases the closer you get to the actual reward.

I don't believe logging in every day is effort. I do it, then I alt+f4 and then I go play Helldivers. I'm not contributing to the game at all these days, yet I somehow make more progress than those guys who are breaking their backs farming mutagen and Nidus, who may skip a day.

I am the OP of that thread. I havent worked on compiling the information for a bit as ive been very busy. But Im still working on it and will have information on all of those things. But the statement here contradicts the statement about divide as the OP is suggesting that people, and yourself citing veterans, take breaks. Therefore its not unreasonable to assume that OP would be able to "catch up" while others are taking breaks. My opinion is that OP is chasing a ghost. Im sure there will be a group of people in the "top 1%" so to speak, that will log in every single day.... again if OP expects to be among the 1%, taking breaks is not how to accomplish that.

(...)

It's unreasonable to expect 100% of the vets to take breaks. It's not black and white, therefore the gap exists. The 1% is guesswork and not really what OP talked about, being behind is okay, being a year behind is probably not that cool.

But thats exactly how the system works now already. If you acquired 155 days, and you take a break for a year, when you log in again..... you'll be at 156. Right where you left off. A cap has nothing to do with that. A person who did not take a break for a year deserves to have an item before the person who did. I mean taking a break.... is a conscious choice NOT to play the game. So when you get back, you can continue your progress from the point you left off at. That IS reasonable.

(...)

Its not trendy... its a systemic degradation of our society's ability to be productive members. This whole idea is of a socialist nature. I have no intention of doing all the work required so somebody else can do half of it and gain the same benefits. 

Productive members? It's a game. Most people can tell the difference between a game and reality, and in fact, being productive in real life may be in conflict with being "productive" ingame.
"Doing all the work for somebody else"? you are not doing the work. You are not making the assets. You are not putting them ingame. You are logging in for yourself. 
Also, quoting an appropriate tweet: if I had a dollar for every time a Baby Boomer complained about millenials, I'd have enough money to buy a house in the economy they ruined.

(...)

No, Op was speaking his opinion of a sigil is good enough, as fact. Im discrediting his "fact" by informing that not everybody agrees, which highlights his statement as an opinion.
Yes, it was an opinion, but you read it wrong: OP also mentioned what he'd replace the exclusives with, not that it'd only be sigils (which are already a reward). That can be debated, sure, but he didn't say everyone should just get sigils.

(...)

First of all, I take pride in how I conduct myself in game and out. Personally Im not really in to games like GTA or DayZ for the very reasons you listed.
Great, good for you, the rest of us can be horrible people to NPCs and great to people outside the game.

Aside from that, its not just a game, or any other. Online gaming is merely an extension of ourselves in a virtual environment.
No it's not. We consciously decide who we are in a game.

This community thrives on instant gratification. DE recognizes this and purposefully capitalizes on it.
Yes it does. Yes they do.

Having good work ethics is something everybody should strive to have in every aspect of life.
Nope, in games we all look for the path of least resistance. As long as nobody gets screwed over -as is often the case in a virtual world- why waste time?

The fact that somebody is online does not give them the excuse to be asshats because internet.
That I agree with, but it's a matter of dealing with other human beings. It's not an issue if you play solo.

Whether you like to admit it or not, these interactions online or in any capacity shape who we are in real life.
I still disagree. I've played games in a huge variety of ways. I'm not a scavenger, a murderer, a savior, a lazy bum, a surgeon, a thief, nor was I turned into one. Most of us can separate games and reality.

No it doesnt... supporting or contributing to the game is as simple as playing the game, Learning the systems, reporting bugs, teaching or helping others, etc etc. That is what keeps WF alive.
Nope, in games we all look for the path of least resistance. As long as nobody else gets screwed over -as is often the case in a virtual world- why waste time?

(...)

Thats exactly my point. Because of the fact that we dont know what will happen, if you make the choice to not play the game, then you must accept if you miss something, or something changes while you are gone.
Or you can suggest a change. Which is what's going on.

(...)

No, things should stay like they are because it shouldnt change because somebody feels bad about making a poor decision. Its no more complicated than that.
You are again defining this "poor decision" by the very thing under discussion.

We're far beyond trying to get a point across. Take responsibility for your actions and earn the rewards. I would have thought this was common sense.
Again, this is a dogmatic argument. "Taking responsibility" is defined by what's under discussion. It'd be common sense if the login reward system was axiomatic... if it was an inescapable truth, forever unchanging.

5p per day early is fair in my opinion.
I've got no opinion on the matter tbh.

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by The_Doc

[Faulcun]

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Again, if you define the failure by the very system being discussed it is circular reasoning. I presented the example as clearly as it could ever be:

No, look. In order to reasonably change a system, you first have to look at what caused the issue. Then you have to see if there is accountability on the person who is experiencing the issue. Is the accountability reasonable? If you take accountability away, does the issue still exist?

Lets look at an example

1. I order takeout food and eat half of it.
2. I leave the unfinished food on the table for 2 days
3. I come back to the food (right where I left off) and eat it
4. I spend the next day in the bathroom
5. I ask the restaurant for a discount on my next purchase because the food made me sick.

• Section 1 has no issues
• Section 2 - Accountability is on me for not storing food properly. Perhaps I was not aware of proper food storing procedures. Accountability is on me to find out. If the food was stored properly, the issue no longer exists.
• Section 3 - Accountability is on me for choosing to eat the food. If I had not eaten the food a second time, the issue no longer exists.
• Section 4 has no issues. An expected consequence to prior actions, but perhaps unexpected by me. This section would not exist had accountability been removed from section 2 and 3. More specifically, had I still gotten sick from initially eating the food, or had gotten sick from eating the food a second time but I had stored the food properly, then I would have no accountability as to why the food made me sick.
• Section 5 - My request for a discount is reasonably denied for the above reasons.

Now lets identify the system

1. Rewards are given to players for completing one single task - log in. There is a limit of one reward per day.
2. The reward is guaranteed no matter how long it takes, as long as the required logins have been met.
3. The rewards exist regardless if a single player has obtained it or not. ( This is important because the 500 or 1000 login reward already exists even if the entire playerbase has not yet reached it. Therefore, the entire playerbase is theoretically behind released content that has not yet been obtained by any player.)
4. Rewards cannot be bought or traded.
5. The system is accumulative and login counts do not reset.

So OP is accountable for many different things. He first chose to take a break from the game. There is actually nothing wrong with that. But there is a reasonable expectation to miss something if you stay away for too long. This system has been live for slightly over a year, which means OP has been gone for at least that long, with no real idea as to how long he was truly gone. For all we know he could have been gone for 2 years.

Is accountability reasonable? Yes and no. In this case, yes because a choice was made. No, because there are a multitude of situations that would keep somebody from logging in like a hardware failure, traveling, school, military, etc etc. If accountability is taken away, does the issue still exist? If OP had not taken a break, or as long of a break, I dont reasonably see us still having this discussion.

While OP was gone, a documented change was made to a system. By documented, I mean it was completely public, information easily available to source and read, I believe a developers workshop was posted about it ahead of time (possible I could be wrong on that), and the system has been live for over a year. OP is accountable for not staying informed about changes to the game. If OP was still interested in the game, then accountability is reasonable to stay informed. If OP was not interested, then his concern is invalidated. The issue no longer reasonably exists. If OP had kept up with news, events, and changes, he may have decided to come back to the game then, and again, I dont reasonably see this topic coming up.

Now OP has returned and is dissatisfied with his current progress compared to other players. Its not that im arguing the system by using the system, im just simply finding more fault in OP's actions than I am with the system itself.

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Discouraging and encouraging are two sides of the same coin, by encouraging logging in every day you discourage taking breaks.

Is the glass half empty, or half full? I guess it just depends on what kind of argument you are trying to have that day.

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Catch up to the release of new items. Not as in "get it the day it's out" but being reasonably behind (in grinding terms I assume). It not about other players but about game content. Everything in the game is within your reach, except for an item that may be behind a 400 day wall you cannot overcome in any way (other than waiting), no matter how much you grind or how much you pay.

I do agree this system is better than the previous one though.

Being behind a 400 day wall or not does not make it outside your reach. The reward is guaranteed no matter how long it takes. There is no rng. There is no skill required. No roll of the dice or special equipment meta builds needed.

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

I don't believe logging in every day is effort. I do it, then I alt+f4 and then I go play Helldivers. I'm not contributing to the game at all these days, yet I somehow make more progress than those guys who are breaking their backs farming mutagen and Nidus, who may skip a day.

Fair enough, but you arent helping your argument either. It isnt much effort... in fact its stupid easy requiring little to no effort like you said. It is literally the easiest thing to do in the game to acquire something, especially something halfway decent. Why exactly does that need to change to something more convoluted?

 

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

It's unreasonable to expect 100% of the vets to take breaks. It's not black and white, therefore the gap exists. The 1% is guesswork and not really what OP talked about, being behind is okay, being a year behind is probably not that cool.

Wait wait, first you tell me its not about the players, its about the content (two quotes up). Now you are telling me its about being behind players again? Technically im a year behind some kind of reward.... I dont know what it is.... but im behind it, and im guaranteed to get it when I log in 365 times from now. My personal journey is going to be different than every other person, but im not looking to skip to a year from now to obtain rewards that i havent earned yet.

 

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Also, quoting an appropriate tweet: if I had a dollar for every time a Baby Boomer complained about millenials, I'd have enough money to buy a house in the economy they ruined.

Its not appropriate if its completely false. im not gonna get into that though.

 

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Yes, it was an opinion, but you read it wrong: OP also mentioned what he'd replace the exclusives with, not that it'd only be sigils (which are already a reward). That can be debated, sure, but he didn't say everyone should just get sigils.

I didnt read it wrong. Everything he listed are things I dont care about and hold no value to me. Which is the point because im not the only one.

 

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Nope, in games we all look for the path of least resistance. As long as nobody gets screwed over -as is often the case in a virtual world- why waste time?

Speak for yourself. That line of reasoning is why the majority of players are terrible at this game. I say that merely as an observation, not as a comparison. However, I have not, and will never farm a map like viver or draco or whatever. My most used equipment will not be a mirage and simulor. I bring a Mk1 Braton to sorties and end up carrying people. Because of instant gratification, and the path of least resistance, people have not developed the skills required to play higher content effectively without using some "meta" build. As soon as you take them outside that very tight box of limits, they fail. I challenge myself on purpose because I enjoy sharpening my skills. Not only in game, but hand eye coordination can be beneficial in many activities outside of gaming, as well as being able to hold ones composure and not panic under stressful conditions. I could go on and on but you've already established that our online activities dont affect in real life... so im just talking to the wind here. 

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Or you can suggest a change. Which is what's going on.

And thats fine. Im suggesting that the reasoning for his suggestion is poor and invalidates his suggestion from being reasonable.

 

9 hours ago, The_Doc said:

Again, this is a dogmatic argument. "Taking responsibility" is defined by what's under discussion. It'd be common sense if the login reward system was axiomatic... if it was an inescapable truth, forever unchanging.

But it is.... the reward is inescapable, guaranteed, and forever unchanging. You cannot avoid getting it. It is going to happen. The only way to stop yourself from getting ANY login reward would be to stop playing the game permanently.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Faulcun

[motorfirebox]

Personally, I don't see any need to change it. Warframe has always rewarded those who were there first and stayed the longest.

If it has to be changed, though, what I'd recommend instead of capping it is to grade it on a curve. Essentially, the further away you are from the current day, the faster you progress towards unique rewards with stats.

Note that only applies to items with stats, e.g. weapons. Any unique cosmetics they add should be attainable only the old-fashioned way.