"Why is the Helminth Charger a grineer" or How I learned to read lore and stop worrying.

[TheChaotic1]

1 minute ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Because there is likely many, many lorists that were infected over the fall of the empire? And they naturally survive much longer then others as they can regenerate faster.

We don't even know if there ARE more lorists, there weren't that many orokin, so they wouldn't need that many doctors, and considering their regenerative abilities they probably don't even need them that often, but there's really not enough evidence either way on this one. DESPITE THAT! There were a ton of lorist infected right after her sister was taken, and it was implied that they were a brand new type at the time.

[CY13ERPUNK]

i just do not understand why the 'white knights' so desperately want to 'defend' DE on this

like, just wow

the mental gymnastics must be exhausting XD

even IF DE just wanted to give us the GRINEER charger model as is with no changes, then why introduce it as an infected virus that cultures within a WARFRAME and then requires a KUBROW egg to mix genetics with AND then re-uses the kubrow rig AND armor AND re-uses the kubrow mods... like srsly, this was a super last-minute / lazy-rush job and it shows all over...

i dont think we should get the pitchforks and try to crucify DE or anything, but FFS lets just call a spade a spade, they were lazy and they did a sloppy job and now they just need to polish it and make it make more sense and/or give us unique mods/abilties/models for the new infested kubrow/kavats

or we could just go full shark-jump and just give us every stupid lil enemy model ingame as a 'pet' and tie them all to the same rig and just re-use every asset we already have, becuz apparently some ppl would not only be perfectly fine with that, but they would defend it as well... =/ [ie this is the BAD option that should NOT be done, in case ppl cannot understand sarcasm]

Edited December 31, 2016 by CY13ERPUNK

[TheChaotic1]

4 minutes ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

'white knights'

The only thing I am defending is that the lore is sound. Thats it.

Was the charger update god awful? YES! Are the cysts the cancer that will plague us for another half month or so? Unfortunately.

Should they have added this in a patch later instead of with Nidus? God yes.

Does it being a grineer make zero sense? Only if you ignore the infested lore.

Should it have just been a kubrow? Honestly I'm fifty fifty on this one, I want a charger, I really do, but rot dog would have been pretty spiffy too.

No where am I calling this great, just lore compliant.

Edited December 31, 2016 by TheChaotic1

[StinkyPygmy]

17 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

We don't even know if there ARE more lorists, there weren't that many orokin, so they wouldn't need that many doctors, and considering their regenerative abilities they probably don't even need them that often, but there's really not enough evidence either way on this one. DESPITE THAT! There were a ton of lorist infected right after her sister was taken, and it was implied that they were a brand new type at the time.

Actually, its implied there was lots of lorists as its stated that the twins were't trained as combat lorists, implying that more exist. Ergo, its completely possible many lorists were infected. Just because they specifically has never seen a ancient, doesn't mean the outbreak hadn't recently reached far enough into the empire to start taking valuable personal like lorists and combat lorists. the twins were likely far from the front lines, but combat lorists would have been in the thick of it.

I can't see anything that supports the technocyte virus creating whatever they want without the right biomass. Nothing in the lore seems to support this.

Edited December 31, 2016 by StinkyPygmy

[TheChaotic1]

2 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Actually, its implied there was lots of lorists as its stated that the twins were't trained as combat lorists, implying that more exist. Ergo, its completely possible many lorists were infected. Just because they specifically has never seen a ancient, doesn't mean the outbreak hadn't recently reached far enough into the empire to start taking valuable personal like lorists and combat lorists. the twins were likely far from the front lines, but combat lorists would have been in the thick of it.

I can't see anything that supports the technocyte virus creating whatever they want without the right biomass.

Honestly we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because the lore supports the generation of infested, you are discounting a key element (The boiler) and our stances are just too different, this is the problem with the lore getting spoon fed to us IMO.

That was definitely my mistake on the lorists though you are right, but she very clearly said she was connected to her sister alone, and that all the healers there were her sister. I don't need more proof then that.

My evidence is: Generation of grineer and corpus parts from infested flesh: Boiler and Hel Charger. Implication of cloning: Ancient Synthesis Scan

[(PSN)PillarOfWar]

Isn't the infested virus nano machines?  If so they alter atomic structures not just DNA. That's why they infect robots and computers too. 

[Evanescent]

The fallacy in your theory is that you assume Heminth is the typical ordinary infested we see in our missions. That is clearly not the case. He is remembered by Ordis, so he dates from the Old War era, and the infested forms we see now only began appearing after Tengus released it into the modern day solar system in the quest (I forget its name). So it can't have the grineer DNA, even if it could manufacture pristine metal grineer masks that makes the chargers we see like the chargers we see today. 

The infested can clone their organic parts, hence the ancients and brood mothers and boilers. The chargers and moas you see are made by twisting their hosts with the plague. 

Why do the boilers make chargers and leapers?

I assume they have consumed the relevant entities and make them out of their remains and dna that already lie within their body.

Remember that when the infested take over no normal units are seen in the mission. They all turn into the infested.

[schilds]

@CY13ERPUNK Lighten up. We're just having fun experimenting with in-universe explanations :-).

 

Fact is we know they were pressed for time - let's give them the benefit of the doubt instead of going straight for lazy :-d - because Steve said so on twitter.

Edited December 31, 2016 by schilds

[Unus]

A) Steve himself said they will likely not go back to it.

B) Sure, it may look like a Grinic helmet, but, if you pulled it off, I'd bet you'd be ripping out a buncha interweaveing veins and muscles.

[StinkyPygmy]

34 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Honestly we are just going to have to agree to disagree, because the lore supports the generation of infested, you are discounting a key element (The boiler) and our stances are just too different, this is the problem with the lore getting spoon fed to us IMO.

That was definitely my mistake on the lorists though you are right, but she very clearly said she was connected to her sister alone, and that all the healers there were her sister. I don't need more proof then that.

My evidence is: Generation of grineer and corpus parts from infested flesh: Boiler and Hel Charger. Implication of cloning: Ancient Synthesis Scan

The boiler is an anomaly among a bunch of evidence that contradicts the generation of something from nothing (I could even justify that if I try hard enough). The infestion is a virus, not a Hivemind race with a pool of genetic material and a nexus for said material with an organism adept at manipulation DNA (tyranids, zerg), and even then, those races can ONLY WORK WITH THE MATERIAL THEY HAVE. They cannot replicate and use DNA structures of host organisms that they do not have. All their strains and creatures are based solely on the host organisms they are infecting and encountering. I don't recall the excerpt implying that there was more then one healer. At any rate, she could sense her sister because as a hive mind, her sister in a sense was all of them, but in consciousness only. Multiple healers or not that doesn't mean that they were all physically replicated from her sister. The first lorist ever infected provided the template, and each infected lorist after that provides the necessary genetic material. The same rules would apply to every other infected organism.

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I honestly think you are interpreting this wrong. More evidence points to the contrary and logic also dictates that it wouldn't make sense. And yes, fiction is fiction but it has to have SOME grounding in reality other wise the reader is unable to suspend disbelief and cannot engage with the story. My point is, its not as obvious and as simple as you painted it to be.

Edited December 31, 2016 by StinkyPygmy

[skelo0]

Psst... its not placeholder

 

[StinkyPygmy]

26 minutes ago, skelo0 said:

Psst... its not placeholder

 

well thats... disappointing.... 

[SilvaDreams]

Well just to clarify for some people as to "Where do they get the armor"

Well even mother nature has made creatures that can use metal, carbon and other things into their structure.

I mean look at our own bones for crying out loud. 

 

Plus it is some kind of super virus that stores excess DNA not of it's own.

Edited December 31, 2016 by SilvaDreams

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

4 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Okay, there is a serious lack of understanding of why the helminth is a grineer. Everyone keeps asking why its not a kubrow, and honestly it was never supposed to be. Helminth had no idea you would use a kubrow egg, he just needed biomatter.

The infested are clones, each one made following a template, every charger is made from the first grineer that was changed into one, just as every ancient healer was made from the first woman to turn to one.

This is the lore revealed from the synthesis scanner about infested ancients, if you read it, the grineer model will make much more sense

  Reveal hidden contents

“She’s dead,” said Dax Menz, growing impatient.

“No, she’s not,” I knew it.

Our shuttle touched down in the ancient city center of New Uxmal for the second time in two days. We rushed to the entrance of the lower chambers, a labyrinth of tunnels carved into the rock. Behind us marched a full complement of bodyguards and Moas.

Menz asked again, “How can you be sure?”

“We’ve been connected for a century and a half, I’m sure.” It felt odd to be speaking aloud about something that Remballa and I had always just kept between us. That feeling of attachment, that anxiety that welled up within one of us when the other wasn’t right. That emptiness I felt when I thought they’d killed her and the joy when the connection came rushing back this morning.

We were twins bred for purpose, cloned and then modified so that we could both interface with the Lora Device. The Orokin had a visage imbued with variation, beauty and symmetry, but we had the Lora nodes protruding from our right temples. Their skin was silken, ours was weaved with ribbons of metallic facia that snaked around our bodies and into the Lora Device embedded in our palms. We made them uncomfortable and they made that known, that is, until they were sick or hurt and then we were saviors. That never bothered me though, I loved my sister and we had each other. I wasn’t about to leave her in the middle of this nightmare.

Hesitation was building in Menz’s face. I had command authority but if he balked, the soldiers would follow him. I needed to force his support, “If you were Tenno, there’d be no question.”

“The betrayers…” he stopped himself. “Look, Remballa’s gone. The Infested killed her yesterday, we both saw it.” His frustration was building, “Damnit, this was supposed to be a relief mission, we can’t-”

“It still is a relief mission.” I interrupted, “You want to go back to retirement Menz, or are you still a Dax?” I knew that stung.

Menz stiffened. He’d been cast aside before. He wasn’t about to let duty slip through his fingers again. Menz stared into me, “Are you willing to risk becoming one of those things for a feeling?”

I nodded, the answer was yes, for this feeling.

“Very well Lorist Ontella,” Menz turned to his squad. “Ready up.”

We entered the subterranean passage, weapon lights illuminated chiseled red stone as we marched deeper into the blackness, past shops and apartments, all carved into the rock eons ago. This city was as old as Mars's atmosphere. Everything was silent, save for the occasional snap of bone under a soldier’s boot. Three days ago this was a busy thoroughfare, now, bloodied scraps of clothing littered the route like confetti. We emerged from the tunnels into cavernous arcade, the Old Market Road. This is where she had led me.

“We’re close,” I said.

“Here they come,” shouted Dax Menz and creatures began to drive at us from every door and window. All teeth and claws and eyes that looked looked so familiar, what kind of animal has eyes like that?

“Square formation!” Menz commanded. We backed up to a wall and the Moa’s moved to form a perimeter, with the bodyguards behind them and me in the middle.

I closed my eyes and focused the device, through it I could feel each one of the bodyguards. A sergeant was slashed through the leg and I directed my energy toward him, his wound closed and he resumed fighting. Acid spit burned another soldier’s chest, I pushed energy to her, eased the pain, then reversed the damage, she would live. This was so much harder without Remballa. Another soldier was bit on the throat, he’s dying, there was nothing I could do, so I ease his pain and let him go. The rate of fire slowed, had we pushed them back?

I opened my eyes to see the Moa’s beams incinerate the last few attackers. I was drained. I wasn’t a combat Lorist, Remballa and I were relief workers, used in disasters and outbreaks, not this.

I felt a surge of that familiar connection, Remballa’s energy pulsed through me. “She’s coming,” I shouted.

“What?” Dax Menz head whipped around to look at me.

“I don’t know,” I said pointing at a hall exit, “she’s coming, from that direction.”

“More Infested!” Shouted a soldier who motioned to the same exit.

A mess of figures shambled forth. These were different, bigger and slower. I could feel my sister in there somehow, it was so strong. The Moas opened fire. I wanted to tell them to stop but how could I? I felt plasma beams burn the creatures and then I felt Remballa heal them. Why? Multiple connections now, I felt her many times over, it didn’t make sense, until it did; she was those things, all of them. They took our fire and kept coming. I felt her, no them, shudder as bullets ripped through flesh and then as flesh was made new again. They were Lorist Infested, my sister the healer, remade as monster and here to kill us.

More rushed in. I felt the healing in them too. I focused just as the first wave broke through our lines. Moas were toppled, soldiers were tackled, teeth tore flesh. I was overwhelmed, I couldn’t control it, their pain fed back through me and I collapsed. Something’s jaws latched onto my foot. Infection pulsed into my veins.

And then I felt it, a new presence, another healer? I’d felt this before, was it, it couldn’t be… I opened my eyes only to be blinded by an intense flash, followed by a crash, like a thousand crystal goblets all being shattered at once. All went silent, the Infested were dead. I felt nothing now.

My eyes readjusted. I was surrounded by bodies. I saw something run away, a streak of silver and gold. It shot straight up the cavern wall and out into the sunshine above.

I didn’t have time to think, I took a breath and a wave of pain surged through my entire body. The Infestation had already taken my leg, soon it would claim the rest of my body. I didn’t care, my sister was gone, this was my time.

A shadow cast itself over me. I looked up. It was Menz, alive, he stared down without speaking and then unsheathed his massive combat blade and raised it high above his head.

“Menz wait,” I mumbled, “I’m sorry.”

With sudden and sure force his blade sliced down and through me. I contorted in with the pain.

His hands grabbed my shoulders, “Heal yourself!”

The adrenaline must have struck at that moment because I bolted up, still stunned, he had cut the infected leg clean off.

“Damnit Ontella,” Menz was shaking me hard now. “Heal yourself!”

Instinct took over, I snapped into focus and sent all the energy I had left through the device and down to the wound. I stopped the bleeding and neutralized the remaining toxin. I nearly passed out, I had nothing left.

Menz hoisted me onto his shoulder, “I’m taking us back to the shuttle,” and he began walk out of there. A few scattered survivors and robots pulled themselves along behind us.

As we approached safety I coughed and whispered to Menz, “I can feel her again.”

“She’s dead.”

“Yes, she is.”

 

Again I'll still say that this story is describing an orokin turned infested ancient? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of this?

[Valiant]

So what about how it has no kubrow features despite being infested during the incubation stage? Surely it would have some of those at least.

[SilvaDreams]

6 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

Again I'll still say that this story is describing an orokin turned infested ancient? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to get out of this?

I think the point was that the Ancient's aren't quite what the Lotus claims. Being "Infested that have lived a long time" they are merely a sub-class of the infested as the first was created when a Lorist was infested thus creating a new strain.

[SilvaDreams]

8 minutes ago, Naith said:

So what about how it has no kubrow features despite being infested during the incubation stage? Surely it would have some of those at least.

A baby that is carried by another woman other than the egg and sperm donor doesn't magically take on the looks of the woman who carried it to term.

 

In this case Helminth was the daddy, we were the mommy and the Kuburow egg was the sacrofical surrogate mother.

[skelo0]

12 minutes ago, Naith said:

So what about how it has no kubrow features despite being infested during the incubation stage? Surely it would have some of those at least.

We breed cats out of kubrow eggs, why not infested?

Edited December 31, 2016 by skelo0

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

I really like the story of the twins but OP steve already said via twitter that the development team was tapped out. They didn't have time to do a custom skin so they used the in game one. 

He also said they may look into this when they get back.

[rand0mname]

I just do not understand, if a charger was an intended result, why bring kubrow into it? Finding a Greener corpse and slapping that pink thingy on it would make more sense ("we purge Infestation" aside). And kubrow animations and sounds look ridiculous on charger. Not horrifing or ugly cute - ridiculous.

For me, the difference in the work put in Nidus in all it's grotesque beauty and this thing is glaring. One was a child of love (metaphorically) and the other have an invisible sign on it: “We are tired and do not care”.

39 minutes ago, skelo0 said:

Psst... its not placeholder

 

The mere idea of anyone in DE looking at this pet for longer then 10 seconds and saying that it's fine as it is... That's worrying.

 

[skelo0]

1 minute ago, rand0mname said:

I just do not understand, if a charger was an intended result, why bring kubrow into it? Finding a Greener corpse and slapping that pink thingy on it would make more sense ("we purge Infestation" aside).

 

 

1 hour ago, skelo0 said:

We breed cats out of kubrow eggs, why not infested?

 

[rand0mname]

8 minutes ago, skelo0 said:

We breed cats out of kubrow eggs, why not infested?

Nope. We breed them in the same incubator (after the Kavat segment is installed by the way) and Kubrow egg is not consumed.

Edited December 31, 2016 by rand0mname

[Separius]

7 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

You mean the story about a woman who is linked to her sister via a specific piece of technology, the same piece of tech that links her to every infested healer?

Anyway they are bioclones based on templates, not literal clones.

There is no @(*()$ linking tech, they use telepathy, c'mon, the infestation is a bloody hive mind. And she could feel her sister again because the ancient healed itself back up again.

There are no bioclones, why the hell there would be when it's easier to just capture and turn living creatures or machines into zombies.

[AtroSpiker]

If this Grineer could still speak, it would probably scream..."KILL ME!!! PLS!!!"

[Kuestenjung]

The cyst is growing on warframes, so the Helminth carger should look like a warframe and not a grineer.