HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[KIREEK]

13 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

By changing the attitude you're referring to buy boosters?

No, i was refering to clan management or leaving said clan since that's not gameplay dependant, it's something anyone can do regardless of experience or dedication level.

 

 

13 hours ago, Naskoni said:

-Snip-

The request is denied, that was rather obvious, not to mention i have nothing to hide and nothing to prove to you or myself, all i can say is that efficiency plays a role, DE didn't use me to determine the costs, they used the community and after considering less gameplay or gameplay where you get less samples, the cost of hema remains fair, the minimun gameplay required over 2 days is high for many, but very low over the weeks.

Yes you need to play the game, big deal.

On a related note clan activity isn't DE's fault, it's the clans fault. If a single guy is the only guy giving away samples in a moon clan, then he has to deal with the consequences in being in said clan or it's management.

It seems many out there make DE responsible for this, when it's not.

Edited February 1, 2017 by KIREEK
typos

[Naskoni]

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

The request is denied, that was rather obvious, not to mention i have nothing to hide and nothing to prove to you or myself, all i can say is that efficiency plays a role, DE didn't use me to determine the costs, they used the community and after considering less gameplay or gameplay where you get less samples, the cost of hema remains fair, the minimun gameplay required over 2 days is high for many, but very low over the weeks.

Yes you need to play the game, big deal.

On a related note clan activity isn't DE's fault, it's the clans fault. If a single guy is the only guy giving away samples in a moon clan, then he has to deal with the consequences in being in said clan or it's management.

It seems many out make DE responsible for this, when it's not.

Oh, so no screenshots for us to supposedly ignore? No proof of your VAST and SUPER efficient veteran experience? Such a pity!

So, you don't have the Hema researched and have been lying your behind off for more than a month, not to mention not even having the necessary mutagen samples, and lecturing others on how they fail at the game for not being able to achieve what you (supposedly) effortlessly did, due to your boundless efficiency. Efficiency one can easily observe in your profile in all the other game content you don't have after 4800+ mission hours so far.

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Yes you need to play the game, big deal.

Oh, in your case for at least another 10 000 hours, given how efficient you have been so far

Here, since you value screenshots and actual experience so much, a little something for you since given how efficient you are you will never get to see that for yourself any time soon:

Edited February 1, 2017 by Naskoni
Screenshot

[Evanescent]

Don't usually like to chew on DE because most of the time they have reasons. But let me say something, this time.

I don't think an hour long survival with a nekros and hydroid netting 100 samples is 'raining'.

If this is a business decision please say so, I am tired of excuses that are half baked.

DId you not lower Vauban Prime's build cost?

Did you not lower for the synapse?

How do you justify nerfing anything in this game, o sweet Devs of mine, when you refuse to change costs based on 'the effort already given'? Did the people who ground out the forma and affinity not 'suck it up' and put in hours and their effort? 

If you are not going to revert Hema costs, please revert all nerfs administered to weapons and warframes. Given the effort that was put in and the 'sucking up' that was done, I see no other way to prove the justification behind your statement.

[SnuggleBuckets]

I have to unfollow this topic by now, so many good points were being made and discussed earlier for pages and remain robustly reasonable without any arguments or evidence to the contrary, and I'd feel like I wasn't contributing anything anymore if I merely repeated what has been said on the topic.
Add to that the select few individuals who keep on trying to defend the decision by DE on Hema without any insightful or constructive thing to say, and with their stingy and personal tone, are slowly derailing the topic and lowering the quality of discussion on this matter. It's just becoming a chore to keep up with the conversation on this topic.
This issue should not go away, and does warrant constant reminder and occasional repetition that we still have issues with this, but personally I feel like this topic is not a fruitful place to hang around in anymore.

[kaliazane]

7 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Farming doesn't keep the game alive.
On the contrary, it makes the game more stagnant, causing players to login for the sake of login reward. Farming for the sake of farming.
The game get less and less active players due to stagnation, and get spikes in players whenever there are new updates.
This can be seen from the graph/chart that @Flirk2 and @The_Doc referring to.

Also when players voiced out that "they have nothing to do in the game", what they actually wanted to say was "they have nothing new/fresh/interesting thing to do in the game".
Players are not asking for increasing boring grinding/farming to artificially prolong the game.

If DE want to make Warframe last for a long time, they have to focus on making robust, balanced and interesting inter-connected systems.
For examples, see Counter-Strike, Killing Floor, Dota2 and Overwatch.
Those games have limited well-designed maps, characters and weapons/items (except for custom player-made ones).

Those games have satisfying game-play mechanics that players enjoy playing for. Players enjoyed the process.
Not like farming, meta setups, boosters and optimal playing which are just a means to an end(a thing that is not valued or important in itself but is useful in achieving an aim).

Farming does keep this game alive.

Lack of things to do causes people to login for the sake of login rewards, just as I was doing near the end of last year. Game gets less and less active players due to previous update being completed after sometimes even 1 day. Grind is what extends that period. What you can see on that graph are people logging in as the update drops in, completing it and going offline. Now compare January of last year to january this year, then wait till february ends and compare it to last february.

Three of the games you mentioned are pvp games, competition is what keeps them active not robust, balanced and interesting inter-connected systems. Killing Floor got tiny player base compared to Warframe. This is not pvp centered game and only fraction of people even goes to conclave so it's pve elements that keep this game going. This new weapon that was just realeased and you really want to get it. That new stance which you'd love to try, new frame that you have to get your hands on asap. That's what keeps this game going, together with major updates like - Focus system and Riven system. But they can't pump out such updates every week.

[Flirk2]

You know, @ViS4GE, I know whatever I say won't convince you, but I can't let some things lie. For example:

15 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/figure-of-speech The things you learn online, huh ?

Really now? So when you say 65 mutagen samples for Synapse research in a ghost clan is ''literally nothing'' it's a figure of speech.

But when I say:

17 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Farming derelicts for hundreds of hours to get that?

You go:

16 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

What hundreds of hours, you are throwing random numbers into the air.

Funny how things like this work, right? You get to say things like

15 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Take away joining missions = 10000000 hours !!

And ''literally nothing'' all the while feeling that those are valid arguments. But I let myself exaggerate even a bit? That's ''trowing random numbers into the air''.

When I saw this part I knew I won't be able to have a discussion with you anymore.

I don't deal with these methods of discussion well. Because I lose all respect for the opponent that openly shows his lack of respect for me. And keeping civil becomes a chore.

Not to mention everything you said was already said multiple times and countered every time with facts.

As for:

15 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

I don't think it ever really was a mistake, imo it was planned from beginning.

Something being planned doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

When the Challenger was launched in spite of the temperature lower than what was safe for that device it was planned as well. Yet, it still was a mistake.

History is full of examples of mistakes planned from the beginning.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Flirk2

[kaliazane]

36 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

And ''literally nothing'' all the while feeling that those are valid arguments. But I let myself exaggerate even a bit? That's ''trowing random numbers into the air''.

When I saw this part I knew I won't be able to have a discussion with you anymore.

I don't deal with these methods of discussion well. Because I lose all respect for the opponent that openly shows his lack of respect for me. And keeping civil becomes a chore.

Not to mention everything you said was already said multiple times and countered every time with facts.

You literally waited for me to appear online just to start throwing pointless quotes again, right ?

You were exaggerating a lot, taking away things everyone farms with 1 by one and adding random numbers to each of them just to keep your argument going. So I got sick of it and did same thing. To me and many other people old clan requirements were nothing and I could even exaggerate and say literally nothing, because they felt like nothing.

You don't counter a fact by coming up with your own farming scenario, nobody on recruit chat even uses and adding random numbers to it. Don't want to farm like everyone else ? fine, but don't be surprised that it will take longer.

Edited February 1, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Flirk2]

And to clear things up.

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

You literally waited for me to appear online just to start throwing pointless quotes again, right ?

No. I came from work. Ate. Typed a reply.

I don't have 1337 hacking skillz, nor psychic powers to know when you are online. Nor do I stalk you. Calm yourself.

4 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

You were exaggerating a lot, taking away things everyone farms with

No. Not everyone. I never bought boosters. Nor did I ever buy prime access.

Odd login booster or booster weekend was all the booster experience for me.

What's more, I think I soloed more missions than played in groups...

It was enough until Hema. But for some reason, you think it's alright that it's no longer enough. I'm expected to have boosters on.

Where before I was expected to be able to get everything in the game in about 300 hours without boosters or meta-squad farming, now I'm expected to do both for hours upon hours. (still an hour in the best-case of 500 samples with boosters).

8 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

You don't counter a fact by mading up your own farming scenario, nobody on recruit chat even uses and adding random numbers to it

The facts were stated multiple times.

That you seem to ignore them in order to feel superior is neither here nor there.

But the numbers I put here are not random. You failing to calculate the drop chance for mutagen samples from the same screenshot you posted twice is not my problem.

Here is what base drop rate looks like:

1073 kills, 11 samples. rounded up makes 1% drop chance from kills on Derelict.

Positively raining...

Oh, and as for Eris:

Sapienti sat.

[kaliazane]

23 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

And to clear things up.

No. I came from work. Ate. Typed a reply.

I don't have 1337 hacking skillz, nor psychic powers to know when you are online. Nor do I stalk you. Calm yourself.

Neither of which would be needed, all you had to do was checking this thread.

No. Not everyone. I never bought boosters. Nor did I ever buy prime access.

Odd login booster or booster weekend was all the booster experience for me.

What's more, I think I soloed more missions than played in groups...

It was enough until Hema. But for some reason, you think it's alright that it's no longer enough. I'm expected to have boosters on.

Where before I was expected to be able to get everything in the game in about 300 hours without boosters or meta-squad farming, now I'm expected to do both for hours upon hours. (still an hour in the best-case of 500 samples with boosters).

Yes, but you went as far as to even remove a party members and then added up random numbers to it. Without just boosters it will take just twice longer, which is to be expected. Well if you are soloer type then this weapon probably is not for you, it clearly isn't aimed at soloers by design. Reason you are speaking of is focusing more on clans, which they plan to do this year so it's just not a content aimed at you I suppose.

The facts were stated multiple times.

That you seem to ignore them in order to feel superior is neither here nor there.

But the numbers I put here are not random. You failing to calculate the drop chance for mutagen samples from the same screenshot you posted twice is not my problem.

Here is what base drop rate looks like:

1073 kills, 11 samples. rounded up makes 1% drop chance from kills on Derelict.

Positively raining...

Oh, and as for Eris:

Sapienti sat.

It is raining for something that IS a clan goal. If they tried to make a clan goal, that soloer can do in under an hour it wouldn't be much of a clan goal, would it ? 

here is how a clan farming would look like: 202 x 4clan members = 808 after less than 20 min

I also love it how you went as far as to show eris drop rate, which everyone knows is almost non existent and on top of that you did it solo, to get even less samples. I'm tempted to go to ODD without sentinel and on purpose not pick up anything, then post 0 samples here and state that sentinels are too meta and I want to farm without them but can't. Then say it would take me 1 billion hours to farm that way. lol

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by ViS4GE

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I'll say it again... DE just needs to make it so that instead of dropping injector fragments in Infested Salvage, it drops Mutagen Samples. Most players have like 3000+ useless injector fragments by the time they get their Nidus, it would make hema quite easy to farm for. Heck, they could go half/half, retaining some of the fragments for those that want the injector for the raid (then again, get it from the raid ?).

 

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Flirk2]

30 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Neither of which would be needed, all you had to do was checking this thread.

How? I didn't check your forum profile. And don't see any indication of people's online status. And, I'm sorry, but you are not important enough to me to bother.

30 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Without just boosters it will take just twice longer

4 times. 2 * 2 = 4

30 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Well if you are soloer type then this weapon probably is not for you, it clearly isn't aimed at soloers by design. Reason you are speaking of is focusing more on clans, which they plan to do this year so it's just not a content aimed at you I suppose.

Nice to know. I felt the shift in the target audience when the bursa were reintroduced. That was my first ever complaint on the forums.

And as time goes on I feel it more and more.

Problem is... in a f2p game with 70 hours of average play time focusing on people with boosters and more than 1000 hours of play time can get very ugly results.

Will people who never intended to play Warframe for 8 hours every day and only in groups stay in the game when they will be told ''this list of gear isn't aimed at you''?

I think not.

30 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

It is raining for something that IS a clan goal. If they tried to make a clan goal, that soloer can do in under an hour it wouldn't be much of a clan goal, would it ? 

here is how a clan farming would look like: 202 x 4clan members = 808 after less than 20 min

I don't want to repeat myself.

Charts here:

About drop rate:

And reread this again:

I rest my case. Have fun with the next ''stretch goal''. Maybe when they'll make you farm 1000 nitain you'll get my point. Or maybe not. We'll see.

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Flirk2
Made the main statement bold...

[kaliazane]

Just now, Flirk2 said:

How? I didn't check your forum profile. And don't see any indication of people's online status. And, I'm sorry, but you are not important enough to me to bother.

I never said profile, it seems I'm very important to you.

4 times. 2 * 2 = 4

2 times, you still benefit from drop chance booster other people have. Put at least some effort into farming and invite someone with it.

Nice to know. I felt the shift in the target audience when the bursa were reintroduced. That was my first ever complain on the forums.

And as time goes on I feel it more and more.

Problem is... in a f2p game with 70 hours of avarage play time focusing on people with boosters and more than 1000 hour of play time can get very ugly results.

Will people who never intended to play Warframe for 8 hours every day and only in groups stay in the game when they will be told ''this list of gear isn't aimed at you''?

I think not.

Not every game is for everyone, just like not every little piece of content needs to be aimed at everyone. Like, I could make argument that conclave is pointless because almost nobody is playing it but someone who does play it will disagree. Nobody forces you to farm for Hema.

I don't want to repeat myself.

Charts here:

Yes they increased required amount.

About drop rate:

Yes if you don't farm like everyone else, now check my screen from random recruit chat party.

And reread this again:

You do it and this time try to understand what I said instead of providing eris drop rate screens that prove nothing.

I rest my case. Have fun with the next ''stretch goal''. Maybe when they'll make you farm 1000 nitain you'll get my point. Or maybe not. We'll see.

Then I'll just argue that it needs to be done solo, on wrong node and...ah lets go crazy : and afk

 

[ChuckMaverick]

20 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Well if you are soloer type then this weapon probably is not for you, it clearly isn't aimed at soloers by design. Reason you are speaking of is focusing more on clans, which they plan to do this year so it's just not a content aimed at you I suppose.

That the Hema "clearly isn't aimed at soloers by design" is a conclusion that you have arrived at, it's not something that DE have stated at all.

The only clear statements that I have heard from DE about their intent with this weapon is Steve mentioning that they didn't want veteran players to be able to start research immediately from stockpiles on a Devstream and Rebecca talking about having 'friction' to encourage players to buy weapons in a podcast.

Oh the other hand, when talking about the upcoming clan 'investigation' feature, Rebecca clearly stated that all types of clan would be catered to, even solo ghost clans. And my interpretation of "further clan content" is more of this type of feature, not more excessive grinds.

[kaliazane]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

That the Hema "clearly isn't aimed at soloers by design" is a conclusion that you have arrived at, it's not something that DE have stated at all.

The only clear statements that I have heard from DE about their intent with this weapon is Steve mentioning that they didn't want veteran players to be able to start research immediately from stockpiles on a Devstream and Rebecca talking about having 'friction' to encourage players to buy weapons in a podcast.

Oh the other hand, when talking about the upcoming clan 'investigation' feature, Rebecca clearly stated that all types of clan would be catered to, even solo ghost clans. And my interpretation of "further clan content" is more of this type of feature, not more excessive grinds.

They stated that they will be focusing on clans this year and they also stated it takes 500 per clan member.

[ChuckMaverick]

Just now, ViS4GE said:

They stated that they will be focusing on clans this year and they also stated it takes 500 per clan member.

Yes, but those come from two unrelated statements, not to mention that the '500 per clan member' is factually incorrect in all but completely full clans and was part of [DE]Taylor's 'holding statement' made all the way back at the start of this issue when most DE staff were on vacation.

[plexus_brachialis]

14 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

I rest my case. Have fun with the next ''stretch goal''. Maybe when they'll make you farm 1000 nitain you'll get my point. Or maybe not. We'll see.

'there has been exactly x number of nitain alerts since introduction, it's your fault you didn't rearrange your entire life around those 4 alerts/day, if you did you'd have all, you are clearly a casual who doesn't play the game ever and wants everything handed to him; it's completely your fault and not a bad game design.'

[kaliazane]

Just now, ChuckMaverick said:

Yes, but those come from two unrelated statements, not to mention that the '500 per clan member' is factually incorrect in all but completely full clans and was part of [DE]Taylor's 'holding statement' made all the way back at the start of this issue when most DE staff were on vacation.

500 per clan member indicates clan goal to me.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

500 per clan member indicates clan goal to me.

Clan research weapons are clearly clan goals by definition, but equally the most recent DE statements show the view that solo clans are completely viable and will be catered to. So 'clan' and 'solo' are not mutually exclusive.

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Clan research weapons are clearly clan goals by definition, but equally the most recent DE statements show the view that solo clans are completely viable and will be catered to. So 'clan' and 'solo' are not mutually exclusive.

We will see whatever they decide to go with in future, for now this is clearly clan goal not only going by 500 per but also going by amount of samples needed. If I look at it objectively right now, that's what I see.

[John89brensen]

15 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Clan research weapons are clearly clan goals by definition, but equally the most recent DE statements show the view that solo clans are completely viable and will be catered to. So 'clan' and 'solo' are not mutually exclusive.

In that case for solo clans, it would be 5k and not 500 as DE claims, making the Hema cost even more unreasonable.

Edited February 1, 2017 by John89brensen

[Flirk2]

26 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

'there has been exactly x number of nitain alerts since introduction, it's your fault you didn't rearrange your entire life around those 4 alerts/day, if you did you'd have all, you are clearly a casual who doesn't play the game ever and wants everything handed to him; it's completely your fault and not a bad game design.'

That's what we'll get in the feedback section from the Order of the Holy Grind.

What we'll have from DE probably will be like:

''There is no mistake. You have 4 alerts a day after all. It'll take you only 250 days to gather the 1000 you need if every member of your clan contributes. Some of you might already have enough lying around. You can speed it up by playing ship sabotage (open the caches there)''

''It's raining nitain in ship sabotage missions''

''There are some clans that already finished research on Squeezer (placeholder name, replace on release...). Lowering the nitain requirement would be a slap to the face. We have to honor their sacrifice and hard work.''

Edited February 1, 2017 by Flirk2

[Darkmatt3r]

After all the drama about hema all i understood is , It is time to farm like a madman or just go through a reform . Either farm your way out of the dilemma or Lower don your clan . Me & my 2 other friend funded the 15k requirement for a shadow clan & i finally paid attention on how many people are inactive in clan . Kicked them all out . 

[k05h]

33 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

'there has been exactly x number of nitain alerts since introduction, it's your fault you didn't rearrange your entire life around those 4 alerts/day, if you did you'd have all, you are clearly a casual who doesn't play the game ever and wants everything handed to him; it's completely your fault and not a bad game design.'

You deserve the title: "Best white knight imitator of the month"

 

[MagPrime]

Just now, k05h said:

You deserve the title: "Best white knight imitator of the month"

 

Was this really necessary?

[k05h]

I just want to add this reddit post that shows a new idea born out of Hema-makes-clans-great-again: Get some tenno freshmen, let them do the farming and then kick them. 

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by k05h