HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Jamescell]

The idea that DE shouldn't fix a clearly unreasonable research cost because some players have farmed the needed mutagen is ridiculous. Such logic can be more generalized to "things shouldn't be fixed for the general betterment of the game because there are players that have suffered with what's broken".

However, regardless of how reasonable DE is being about this issue of "fairness", there is a relatively simple fix: lower the mutagen sample cost and refund players that contributed to the research.

If DE's real motivations for not changing the price are simply out of "fairness" to those that have already researched the Hema, then there's no reason reject this solution.

Prove that this isn't a blatant cash grab, DE. Lower the cost and refund players.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Jamescell

[ShogunGunshow]

I've never seen more furor over a more meh weapon.

[Iceheart125]

's been a month, man. if a clan doesn't have it, that's not a biggie. it's a decent weapon from what ive seen, but... it's really not worth the fuss. they made a choice, and they're allowed to do that. no, i dont like it either, but if i want it that badly, ill just work some for it.

[Magnar21]

DE confirmed that the research costs are not a mistake, are intended, and will not be changed. Going forward, however, they will try to keep costs more reasonable for research/building, and implement a better way to acquire the mutagen.

[MagPrime]

I think they should do something about the cost for the half capacity and solo Ghost clans, but that's it. 

Yes, it's rather high for research, I do agree with that, though I don't think it needs to be changed.

[Proxy345]

Its way easier for new players to just outright buy Hema with plat after doing enough trades lol

Though by the time a new player reaches MR 7 then they should have access to enough stuff to sell anyways in order to buy Hema.

[(PSN)sanemane213]

At this point, I'm just done with farming in Warframe. It literally makes me sick, so, I couldn't really care less.

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by (PS4)sanemane213

[Rexuz]

Just now, ShogunGunshow said:

I've never seen more furor over a more meh weapon.

That's pretty much the reason. DE is asking too much for a meh weapon.

If the Hema would do something extraordinare to justify either the Mutagen or the Platinum to skip that level of farming, I don't think we would have this issue.

Is like asking $500 for a plastic spoon.

[SnuggleBuckets]

13 minutes ago, Jamescell said:

Such logic can be more generalized to "things shouldn't be fixed for the general betterment of the game because there are players that have suffered with what's broken".

Excellently put. Nothing to add, unfortunately this will soon be merged probably with the massive topic, to add to the confusing conversations paralleling each other there. Maybe a poll of the general player base would help the devs put things in perspective? And not the vague general type the previous stream had, but a specific one on this issue.

[Vohim]

weapon deals solely viral damage in other words  not only does it have low damage but its crap vs  corpus and  infested  corpus sure are weak to viral but by having only viral damage it gets resisted by the shields and the life steal effect is on headshots only  so good luck  making the gun worth  1/1000th of its cost

[OniDax]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)sanemane213 said:

At this point, I'm just done with farming in Warframe. It literally makes me sick, so, I couldn't really care less.

 

Same. I don't farm. I know, I'm weak. I succumb to their wishes. Farming is miserable, by design, and so I don't farm. I either buy the weapon with plat or I don't acquire the weapon at all. I just hope that at some point through his playthrough of the game, Steve can finally learn how us players struggle with the tedious grind.

[LokiTheCondom]

It's funny that they say they won't lower the cost as it'll be unfair to players who invested that ludicrous amount of resources, but hey it's totally fair to nerf a fun weapon or frame which you invested like 5-6 formas cuz y'know, balance!

[Ditto132]

9 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

''It's raining mutagen in derelict''. Right. Because Steve seems to not ever play without boosters and 3 other players... Oh well.

I guess, no point even trying anymore. They'll do whatever they want. (Or whatever marketing department makes them do, don't know which is right at the moment...) No matter that 3 years the research had reasonable cost. 77 times reasonable is the new rule.

''Sticker shock'', you say?

''24 millions registered losers'' are expected to suck up pretty much anything at this point.

What next?

Mod capacity that we'll have to increase with plat? Gear slots locked until you unlock them with plat? Operator DNA stabilizers? The need to refuel the ship?

Oh well, time to go search for another hobby. I wonder, will I be able to find one before this game becomes more frustrating than fun?

At any rate, I'm not going to watch their streams from now on.

I feel that latest streams are less informative and more about promoting and advertising...

Anyway, what types of games you are interesting in? I can recommend a few games. Maybe gift you if I got spare copies that I brought because I wanted to support the developers.

9 hours ago, Lored said:

500k for Moon clan? Lol, 1000 members cap, and it's hard to farm 500k? If you Dojo online 100-200, just reduce clan tier. I'm in Shadow clan with 5-9ppl online (with 30ppl cap), we farm 15k samples less then 1hr in 2 party without boosters. If your clan can't cooperate, it's not DE fault.

Maybe DE should just reduce the number of inefficient employees so they don't need as much revenue...

8 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Let's make something clear that I should have mentioned earlier

The numbers are only 1/3rd of the problem. The rest of it is principle

Everyone who grinds the Hema is sending DE a message this this is acceptable. IT ISN'T AND NEVER WAS, let's make that clear right now

And the last part is the apathy. Notice how the forums are filling up with more and more "stop complaining about it and go farm"? DE never intended that but that's what's happening. More and more players are turning apathetic. You might mock Jim Sterling, but he's right. This is in his video and it's exactly what's happening

I will fight this on principle alone until DE either learns their lesson or bans me

When the time comes where the complaints died down, it is probably because players gave up hopes in DE and left the game.

8 hours ago, JSharpie said:

That's not what it's about. It's about trying to spread new content out over a few weeks instead of an afternoon.

8 hours ago, JSharpie said:

We as players have often been handed weapons on a silver platter, especially us vets with large stockpiles of resources. This, in my opinion, is bad. To counteract this they make weapons cost more to research. And, again, it's a clan. It's not you alone. Instead of complaining, work with your damn clanmates to get the thing you want so badly.

How about encouraging players to play casually for fun while new contents are in the making. To "honour" the resources that players have been farming even when there are not new contents yet? Where is the honour for players spending time farming for resources?

8 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

Oh, so you have a screenshot of you getting 2200 samples after 60 minutes of ODS? Do show please.

~36 per min? ~0.6 per sec? I'm curious too...

8 hours ago, toafarmer said:

Kicking people to downgrade clans is not an acceptable solution. If people are seriously considering this, they have no idea on what a clan is for.

Those people are too selfish to really understand what a clan is for. Only wanting clan for their own benefits, kicking members away after finish using them.

[ArbitUHM]

43 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I've never seen more furor over a more meh weapon.

The furor is really about all the things that might happen. I think DE is feeling out just how much they can push clans to farm, and seeing what happens when clans are given a goal that they need to pull together as an actual group to achieve. Some of the things Steve said, like how he wish they had done a better job of "ramping up" to the Hema, like this is the new norm for clan research, is a little unsettling. He also said it in the context of new clan content, so personally I'd like to see more of that before declaring my faith in DE dead, broken, crushed, burnt to the ground, slapped in the face, [standard Hema hyperbole goes here]

I think DE_Steve is more than a little bit obstinate at times, like with Rakta Ballistica. Everyone knew that thing sucked relative to all the other syndicate secondaries, but the man would just not bend on giving it any sort of buff. You could see him get flustered when asked about it dev stream after dev stream. After a few months it got a massive buff... I think that's what we'll see here with regards to Hema research cost. *shrug*

Edited January 21, 2017 by ArbitUHM

[Unholyrequiem]

I wonder how long it will take for them to realize how this trend will alienate players who want to enjoy the game? 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Unholyrequiem

[Ditto132]

7 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

Especially with the upcoming Secura Lecta nerf and the credits economy mentioned in the stream.

Hmm... where the "honour" for those who put in effort in getting Secura lecta and formaing it? I read somewhere that it is sold for lot of plat.
 

[Unholyrequiem]

5 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Hmm... where the "honour" for those who put in effort in getting Secura lecta and formaing it? I read somewhere that it is sold for lot of plat.

You know Secura Lecta isn't that hard to get, at most it's probably worth like 70 or 80 plat. Where's my honour for formaing my telos boltor even though it's probably one of the worst syndicate primaries or synoid helicor?

 

 

Personally I like to think that people are less concerned with the Hema cost itself but rather a trend of things to come in the future where super high resource clan costs become a common thing from DE alienating the common player.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Unholyrequiem

[Ditto132]

5 minutes ago, Unholyrequiem said:

You know Secura Lecta isn't that hard to get, at most it's probably worth like 70 or 80 plat. Where's my honour for formaing my telos boltor even though it's probably one of the worst syndicate primaries or vaykor marelok?

Personally I like to think that people are less concerned with the Hema cost itself but rather a trend of things to come in the future where super high resource clan costs become a common thing from DE alienating the common player.

The contradiction is that DE stated that the cost will not be lowered to "honour" those who done it. There are more examples of changes, nerfs that shows that DE doesn't need to care or "honour" those who already done it before the changes.

Sure, it is less about the Hema cost. But most of us wanted to give DE another chance to rectify/clarify their "mistakes", but nothing was done...

[Rhekemi]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:58 AM, Ciaus said:

It rains mutagen on Derelict.

As a casual who still has so much old content left to explore, I was never chasing the Hema, but I did want to complete it for my clan (Vice Leader). The costs were exorbitant. Farming and grind, right now, isn't how I want to spend my time whether it's for new primes or the Hema. I never played WF for the challenge, but for the time-killing, casual, badass, intriguing (the story) aesthetically pleasing fun. Sometimes even challenging content was fun. Sure.

However, grinding isn't fun. Or it isn't anymore. And don't tell me it's just "burnout" or I need a break. The more I think about it, the more I wonder how much burnout is actually built into the MMO model. Burn out old players, get new ones. The net player retention is all that will keep you alive in reality, and companies (like DE) simply do the best they can. It is hard, harder than it sounds to us as players to do that. Do the best they can, please old and new, and keep the company alive.

Doesn't mean you're not going to hear us complain about it.

I'd been falling off the WF wagon for some time. I still want to be a completionist and collect 'em all. 'Frames and weapons, within reason. The most grinding I was doing these past few months was to get platinum to buy friends gifts, or items as thanks for their help on concepts, and leveling existing gear. I played the TWW quest and didn't touch WF for a month. Didn't get around to my Riven until a month-and-a-half or 2 after completing TWW. I'm not planning on re-rolling it anytime soon, if it all. 

So, yeah. I'd hoped DE would see that (cost was too damn high) and not choose to focus on clans that powered through it and ignore the larger number of players and clans who hadn't or couldn't in any reasonable amount of time. It isn't an either or choice between addressing complaints and letting clans who aced the research down, and it never was.

It was a mistake. Or at least I thought it was. But if it wasn't a conscious choice before, it clearly is one now. DE's chosen to ignore all existing complaints and see how things work out.

Okay. Do whatever you need to DE, and players will do the same. In my case, I will continue to not give a **** about the Hema, but contribute when I can for my clan's sake. I could always take it or leave it.

But I don't really enjoy playing Warfame anymore. A huge part of that reason is the excessive amount of free time it demands for incremental progress (I've never been big on MMOs. DCUO and WF were it)--free time I'd rather spend, I need to spend, working on other things.

As far as DE and the community are concerned, they're still a very decent company and a decent community for one of the best free to play games on the market.

But the choices the community and DE makes now will define its future to some degree--even if not entirely. (Not doomsaying.) 

Try not to lose that decency when you make, or are faced, with hard choices. Even if you make the wrong one (which, if you'd like my opinion, DE, you did**) sometimes.
**

Spoiler

Before some well-meaning clan warlord who got it done steps in to correct me, the idea of making clans work together for common, expensive goals could have worked, and would have been accepted had several fundamental issues and problems with dojos, clans, alliances, and related content been addressed to some significant degree before dropping increasingly exorbitant clan research. The two should have walked hand in hand. That's the core reason this feels like punishment, and not a fun, "Hey, guys! Let's work together!" scenario. 

Instead, DE, as they're fond of doing, decided it was better to drop a new item/research on the already floundering dojo, clans, and alliance system. Kind of like releasing the Cyst without the rest of the system, lore, a cure, or mechanics to remove the randomness and forced feeling of that new content. (And I really did appreciate Steve's explanation of the thinking behind that new system. It's classic SF and makes total sense in the story.) When a fellow community member (during the Second Stream) said he thought the Cyst reflected the element of surprise and vulnerability the community had asked for, it goes without saying that the half-baked execution of the concept is the problem.

Hema: half-baked execution of pushing clans to work together, and work hard. Without the other half of several quality of life changes for clans, it's just punishment. Or people choose to ignore the Hema, leave, or bring in hired guns to donate mutagen. That's what I don't understand about DE's intransigence on the issue: none of those outcomes could possibly be desired. They all encourage people to either not play the game, protest, bash the devs (really that's a choice of players, and not something DE asked them to do), or bypass the grind entirely by paying others to donate.

The only outcome cynics and critics are left with (that's desirable to DE) is that DE wants us to pay for the bundle.

Maybe that seems cold, from DE and less cynical players' perspectives, but when you ignore heaps of statistics and data showing how high your costs jumped (higher than players can reasonably compensate for) and only focus on data showing some people sucked it up and got it done it makes some people (who may already be cold and cynical) feel all the more justified in their thinking.

Of course, a big part of it is DE has already spoiled the community by making things so damn accessible. Other MMOs, even F2P, are not this lax with the grind, or their premium currency. On the subreddit, people could only mention 2 - 3 MMOs (other than WF) that allow players to trade their premium currency / obtain it for free.

Now, when DE decides to hold its ground, it's jarring even for someone as casual and generally understanding as me.

Anyway, I didn't actually plan on saying much. Just wanted to post the Charlton Heston GIF and bounce. But whatever. Those are some thoughts. Not really right or wrong, or very impassioned or accusing any side of anything. Just thoughts, and me feeling a bit baffled that this is the outcome.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Rhekemi
Added lines for clarification.

[ScribbleClash]

On 2.1.2017 at 8:58 AM, Ciaus said:

It rains mutagen on Derelict.

That sentence during the devstream was just adding insult to injury. I do wonder if it was their actual opinion or what their script told them to say.

The whole notion of not changing the cost because they do not want to "devalue the efforts" of clans who had already finished the research is plainly ridiculous. They already gained a reward: Having the Hema ahead of time of everyone else.
Please DE, stop claiming this did actually work to make clans bond together. If anything at all, several people did some part of this obnoxious grind, not even necessarily together with their clan bretheren, then went back to their same old behaviour.

Edited January 21, 2017 by ScribbleClash

[MajorTom]

It rains mutagen on Derelict - I hope he is kidding, but i said that about trump last year too.

[Myscho]

Yeah, it rains mutagen if every member of squad have drop chance and double boosters

[Jaysus41]

In all my years of playing I think this is the first time they've been unreasonably pig-headed about something. I remember years ago if they did something like this they would've apologized, fixed it, and gave everyone who farmed a little a 3 day booster or whatever on day 1. I supported them with a GM Founder purchase back then because I liked the game and trusted them to not pull crap like this.

The mistake should've been fixed before things got out of hand, but no. They've had a taste of the forbidden fruit, they've made tons of money off this "mistake" and can only expect them to make more of these "mistakes" in the future.

All I can do is voice my disdain for the incorrect course of action and vote with my wallet. I haven't bought much platinum recently, but I don't expect to buy any more in the future unless my faith is restored.

Fix your mistake Steve, both of them!

[ScribbleClash]

23 minutes ago, Myscho said:

Yeah, it rains mutagen if every member of squad have drop chance and double boosters

Drop chance does not stack.

You get 200 mutagen / 20 rounds of defense with: Drop chance booster (2x drops = down to 100/20), Ressource booster (double loot = down to 50/20), Nekros (+54% loot = 32/20) and hydroid (double, but depending on enemies grabbed by pilfer, so an estimate of 80% = 18 mutagen/20 waves). For Survival with ~380 over 45 minutes that's 34 without boosters, meaning 0.76 mutagen per minute.

Edited January 21, 2017 by ScribbleClash

[Metronome]

Danielle said we can't talk about it until the information became available about potential drop rates. So... Now that the information is available...

 

Can we talk about how ridiculous this is?

Edited January 21, 2017 by Metronome