HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[John89brensen]

23 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Nothing need to be fun for those who are addicted and spent too much time and money in wf, they're too deeply invested to cut losses. 

This game is narcotic indeed. 

Sadly this is true, Hema research was clearly not implemented with the fun factor in mind.

As for the narcotic effect of this game, and cutting losses, thats the reason that if i ever decide to leave the game for good, ill be sure to give away everything i onw and delete my account.

[SnuggleBuckets]

It's strange how fast many of us players are willing to bend over backwards with compromises when the devs aren't budging at all.
I'm talking about how there's still a very valid case to be made about lowering the resource cost in the dojo (it's a "meh" weapon after all*), bringing all the requirements down to something reasonable, all the plastids, nano spores, neurodes and mutagen samples. But then everyone gave up on even bringing up the other insane requirements and instead focused on arguing about bringing down the mutagen sample requirements. And constantly just lowering our modest demands to become even smaller, not demanding the dojo cost lowered, instead hoping for Eris and Derelict droprate buffs with potentially Mercury and Dark Sectors as new mutagen sample drop locations. Now it's just pleading about having the Derelict drop rate buffed.

It's like we players were addicts willing to plead and beg with our supplier.
But we are consumers, many of us have paid money in this game when we felt it deserved it, a lot of us, I'm willing to bet, have paid more than for most of the triple-A games we've bought over the few years, maybe even combined.
And as consumers of this product who have supported it over the past, we shouldn't be so quick to give in on our requests to keep the business model of a product reasonable.

Many of us have made reasonable requests here in this topic, cognizant of the fact that in the end this is a consumer product and is expected to make money, I've made suggestions here earlier of adopting other timegating systems for research (actually making it like research with scientist NPCs involved in development), hoping that it would be a fun but still long process that could please players and still work to get a few people to instantly buy their weapons, since that's why timegates exist in free-2-play games.

We don't need to drop demands constantly with every silent echo from the devs.

* A sidenote, one of my first points on this discussion revolving around the Hema was about how the cost and effort put into researching and crafting weapons and warframes should be proportional to how good it is, so that hard work feels like it pays off and you don't regret putting so much effort and money down on throwaway MR fodder, a universal way of balance used in most of all games.
Anyway, noticed a while back someone saying that if they'd do this then everyone would scream "pay2win!" in response, and true, some people would react so, but I think cooler heads would prevail in the end, who could see that this is a solo-coop game 99% of the time (conclave is balanced separately), if a squad member would have bought high ranking gear, they could help the team more than hurt it, only our petty human envy and natural inclination to turn everything into a contest makes us not appreciate when the team comes geared to win.

Edited January 22, 2017 by SnuggleBuckets

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Can somebody explain to me why,  after 30 days since Hema was released and 300 members of Moon clan running 1x ODD daily are able to start her research in these days, this Topic is still alive?

[Miser_able]

3 hours ago, Obviousclone said:

no it's not lol

 

on the same patch that the hema came out on (the one where nidus was released)

they released a quest called "the glast gambit" (maybe you've heard of it)

well anyway, the quest itself was bugged on release in that the final decision you could make in that quest awarded players with the wrong sun/moon alignment. This was fixed 2 days later, and DE kept a snapshot of all the decisions players took in those 2 days, so after a few weeks, when DE came back from vacation, they were able to reset the sun/moon alignments to their actual places and correct everyone's sun/moon alignments.

That's a couple of days. I was talking about months

[LuckyCharm]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Can somebody explain to me why,  after 30 days since Hema was released and 300 members of Moon clan running 1x ODD daily are able to start her research in these days, this Topic is still alive?

because getting 300+ players to even care about a meh weapon is hard. Getting them all to actually want to farm for the meh weapon is even harder. 

[LABAL]

When I heard about Zenistar, I thought:
"It may take a year. Or three. Or five. I will get there, eventually."
Half an update later, there came Sibear and I said: "**** it."
Now, Hema? Still not going to bother.

Edited January 22, 2017 by LABAL

[(PSN)Onder6099]

17 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

yeah pretty much. It's that they don't recognise that if one person fails the slack falls to everyone else. In a clan of 1000, if 300 people slack off.. that's just under 1/3rd of the clan not participating meaning that everyone else needs to farm more. Which causes the people actually willing to farm for it think "why am I even carrying these other slackers" and just give up, get angry, or complain here on the forums. 

It's one thing to have to farm for your own weapon, quite another to farm for 300 other peoples weapon too. I'd be perfectly happy if they reduced the cost to a normal number, but upped the individual build cost to the 500ish mutagen we'd have had to farm. 

(In case you didn't notice I'm not really a team player when it comes to adding hours to my farm time)

I choose number 300 purposely, it's number of Mountain clan, so downgrade, u can also leave the Clan or make farming more competitive, especially in Clan with Newbies, stop to sell prime "thrash" for 1 pl and make something like Weekly MS competition for prime "thrash" set.

Just my point of view:

Farming is base part of this game, but, soon or later, many players forget about that because vision of tons of plat  on their Accounts (Greed) and quick MR progress pushing them to play only few nodes. I will call it something like "Revenge of Draconians" , while nobody runs Derelict, there is no profit yet, except Vault and Kavat codes, if the Hema research will be in Grineer lab, probably nobody will have problem with Detonite ampules, even if the amount needed will be 3-4x more then MS. Imho, DE just want to show us that the play only few nodes is bad decision.

 

[ScribbleClash]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I choose number 300 purposely, it's number of Mountain clan, so downgrade, u can also leave the Clan or make farming more competitive, especially in Clan with Newbies, stop to sell prime "thrash" for 1 pl and make something like Weekly MS competition for prime "thrash" set.

Just my point of view:

Farming is base part of this game, but, soon or later, many players forget about that because vision of tons of plat  on their Accounts (Greed) and quick MR progress pushing them to play only few nodes. I will call it something like "Revenge of Draconians" , while nobody runs Derelict, there is no profit yet, except Vault and Kavat codes, if the Hema research will be in Grineer lab, probably nobody will have problem with Detonite ampules, even if the amount needed will be 3-4x more then MS. Imho, DE just want to show us that the play only few nodes is bad decision.

 

Sorry, but get lost, if your only suggestions are:
- Downgrade your Clan
- Suck it up

There's a whole set of issues that people like people who make these arguments love to ignore:

• The estimated values have been miscalculated, because it was assumed that a clan is 100% active and 100% contribute.
• If you believe it or not, Clans may consist of friends. I'm happy for you that you're willing to kick out anyone for the sake of progress on a single item. Besides, good job on bringing people together!
• On that note, Ghost clans can not be downgraded. There's potentially already a lot of work in ghost clans, so if your suggestion is to disband then this counts especially for you: get lost.
• You claim DE's goal is to bring variety to nodes played, however the mutagen sample situation just makes everyone play one specific node in the derelict.
• That is with a specific teamup, to maximize your drops. Which is an issue itself, as it is no fun to repeat the exact same thing over and over. You can't even altrenate your setup.
• Without these requirements, you have to farm ~600 Minutes in per person. On Average I'd say you have clan activity of 60-70%. From those, roughly half are farming. That is 30 hours of continous tedious grind per person.

Mainly, grind is not engaging. It is not fun and to be honest afterwards the only question left is: Why the hell did I do this to begin with? The Hema is a precedent and if we do not want it to be the norm it is crucial to speak up about it. Yes, they've been saying they're going to avoid it. But they also said they wanted to reduce grind. They said they were gonna adjust drop rates, only to bring up the excuse that they want to "honor" the clans who already "achieved" mindless grind.

There is no honor in this.

Clans that already got the Hema, have the benefit of having it earlier than the rest. If that isn't good enough for them, then that just makes it clear that all they want is to feel entitled to something.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

19 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

Sorry, but get lost, if your only suggestions are:
- Downgrade your Clan
- Suck it up

There's a whole set of issues that people like people who make these arguments love to ignore:

• The estimated values have been miscalculated, because it was assumed that a clan is 100% active and 100% contribute.
• If you believe it or not, Clans may consist of friends. I'm happy for you that you're willing to kick out anyone for the sake of progress on a single item. Besides, good job on bringing people together!
• On that note, Ghost clans can not be downgraded. There's potentially already a lot of work in ghost clans, so if your suggestion is to disband then this counts especially for you: get lost.
• You claim DE's goal is to bring variety to nodes played, however the mutagen sample situation just makes everyone play one specific node in the derelict.
• That is with a specific teamup, to maximize your drops. Which is an issue itself, as it is no fun to repeat the exact same thing over and over. You can't even altrenate your setup.
• Without these requirements, you have to farm ~600 Minutes in per person. On Average I'd say you have clan activity of 60-70%. From those, roughly half are farming. That is 30 hours of continous tedious grind per person.

Mainly, grind is not engaging. It is not fun and to be honest afterwards the only question left is: Why the hell did I do this to begin with? The Hema is a precedent and if we do not want it to be the norm it is crucial to speak up about it. Yes, they've been saying they're going to avoid it. But they also said they wanted to reduce grind. They said they were gonna adjust drop rates, only to bring up the excuse that they want to "honor" the clans who already "achieved" mindless grind.

There is no honor in this.

Clans that already got the Hema, have the benefit of having it earlier than the rest. If that isn't good enough for them, then that just makes it clear that all they want is to feel entitled to something.

I love players like u, which red only last post and choose only what fits into their negative and irrelevant post.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

credits can be gotten from literally anywhere.  and unless you are really bad with your purchases you shouldn't need to farm credits really at all.

Mute samples drop from 2 places.  are a rare resource drop.  and mainly for clan investment.

Add on the fact that the sheer amount of credit gain from the secura + the attitude coming along with it (can't farm with us without the secura) and it's easy to see why each thing received different attention.  This isn't inconsistency.  This is you whining.  DE already said they were going to do something to mutey drops to make the grind not as painful.  they might make it drop off of more than just the special units.  or they might do what they did with oxium.

[Xsoskeleton]

well if u dare to farm for years without spending wealth on boosters or just buy the weapon, then go on.

Patience is a key for farming and grinding games like these, but hey, even patience has its limit.

[MomoStranger]

got a clan with 3 active but they dont farm alot cuz they dont play that much i did yesterday defense missiona nd i got 150 mutagen sample so 4000 more to go 

[Redthirst]

That's a good business strategy by DE. Take a resource that is not required in high amounts and doesn't drop that much, and make a research that requires 100 times as much of this resource, meaning that people will either have to grind for ages, or pay up. It's an absolutely scummy strategy that I hate DE for, but it probably got them a lot of money.

I'm fine with them gradually increasing research and craft prices. The key word is "gradually", not randomly releasing a research that requires 100 times as much Mutagen Samples as any other research in the game.

[ScribbleClash]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I love players like u, which red only last post and choose only what fits into their negative and irrelevant post.

I read your last 3 posts which all consisted of roughly the same. Don't be so ridiculously unrealistic to expect me to sweep through 42 pages of posts just for your gratification. Instead of throwing mud to devalue my opinion on the matter, you could tried to bring up arguments for your point of view.

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I choose number 300 purposely, it's number of Mountain clan, so downgrade, u can also leave the Clan or make farming more competitive, especially in Clan with Newbies, stop to sell prime "thrash" for 1 pl and make something like Weekly MS competition for prime "thrash" set.

Just my point of view:

Farming is base part of this game, but, soon or later, many players forget about that because vision of tons of plat  on their Accounts (Greed) and quick MR progress pushing them to play only few nodes. I will call it something like "Revenge of Draconians" , while nobody runs Derelict, there is no profit yet, except Vault and Kavat codes, if the Hema research will be in Grineer lab, probably nobody will have problem with Detonite ampules, even if the amount needed will be 3-4x more then MS. Imho, DE just want to show us that the play only few nodes is bad decision.

 

Farming without maximum efficiency is like coffee without caffeine. 

Nodes are designed by DE so it's their fault that we play only few nodes?

[Volinus7]

To all those who still stand on "reduce the grind" side, you should be able to determine the maximum grinding period and draw the absolute line there (8hrs? 16hrs? 30hrs? 40hrs?) otherwise you won't be able to escape "you want it now" accusation and there will be no end to this. 

For example 

Imagine doing the same thing over and over for 8hrs, yes you don't have to go 8hrs straight you can do other things play other games but it doesn't change the total sum of 8hrs that you have to spend.

This can be a very good thesis for someone lol.

 

Hmmm... fatigue system can kinda fix the gap between no-lifers and casuals but well this game doesn't have it.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Volinus7

[Ailissa]

13 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

no, that's only part of the reason. the main reason is because it's causing toxicity within the community: groups aren't letting people without the Secura Lecta farm with them, which is unfair to newer players who really need the credits, and since we can't nerf human nature, we can only nerf the reason why it's becoming a problem.

it's not like we don't have dozens of other places where you can farm credits anyway.

I disagree with this being a reason.

 

People are free to decide whoever they want to join their groups, nerfing the Lecta won't change that.

 

In fact, nerfing it will probably make people more likely to demand them in a group because less credits means the need for more ways to make them. Chroma and Lecta will probably be a must have before long.

[VentiGlondi]

I'd like Steve to point me towards those posts that claimed that Hema research costs are good cause they brought their clan back together to work on it.

[Naskoni]

10 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

I'd like Steve to point me towards those posts that claimed that Hema research costs are good cause they brought their clan back together to work on it.

What he meant was what the lackeys that supposedly represent us, the players, told him during the podcast done immediately after devstream 85. Go listen to it (think around 10 min) and try not to lose too many braincells listening to what Steve is being told.

[Doc-Orange]

57 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

That's a good business strategy by DE. Take a resource that is not required in high amounts and doesn't drop that much, and make a research that requires 100 times as much of this resource, meaning that people will either have to grind for ages, or pay up. It's an absolutely scummy strategy that I hate DE for, but it probably got them a lot of money.

I'm fine with them gradually increasing research and craft prices. The key word is "gradually", not randomly releasing a research that requires 100 times as much Mutagen Samples as any other research in the game.

I know what you mean but I dont think that will work in a long term. Players like me who are willing to pay money are upset and play less because of this. Because of this I'm activly searching for a new game (to be honest - its hard to find but Mass Effect and Destiny 2 are on the way). Will somthing like this happens again I will activly leave. Thats a question oh honor. Reasons like Steve mentions insulting me because they are proofed as wrong so many times.

Its their game. They can do what they want - but I can also do what I want.

In my case I think that I spent about 2k platinum less because of frustration an I normally buy my platinum with real money. So hopefully the sold about 10 Hemas to mitigate only the lost caused by me.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

1 hour ago, ScribbleClash said:

I read your last 3 posts which all consisted of roughly the same. Don't be so ridiculously unrealistic to expect me to sweep through 42 pages of posts just for your gratification. Instead of throwing mud to devalue my opinion on the matter, you could tried to bring up arguments for your point of view.

U probably missed that Downgrade I specifically recommended to @LuckyCharm.

 

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

Farming without maximum efficiency is like coffee without caffeine. 

Nodes are designed by DE so it's their fault that we play only few nodes?

That's correct, but u can't expect only Profit, sometimes u must sacrifice something.

[plexus_brachialis]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

 DE just want to show us that the play only few nodes is bad decision.

 

they sure did show us by forcing us to play ... 2 nodes? wow. 

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, plexus_brachialis said:

they sure did show us by forcing us to play ... 2 nodes? wow. 

Aladeen or Aladeen?

Or

ALADEEN OR ALADEEN??? 

[plexus_brachialis]

5 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Aladeen or Aladeen?

Or

ALADEEN OR ALADEEN??? 

ODS and ODD baby. pick your poison :^) 

im a filthy casual. i don't care about cost per se. my 2 men clan will get it eventually. what grinds my gears is constant 'we don't want you to farm we want you to PLAYYYY' parole, and yet 'uuuuuuuhhhh take your nekroses and farm your butts off in the clunky ugliest piece of tileset we have because...we don't want you to farm? play the game doods'

when they came with sibear, i shrugged, because i liked playing excavations and had tons of stuff lying around, and there was at least one mission type on any tileset. 

when they came with vauban prime, i didn't care to get him, but i have 35k oxium stockpiled from casual corpus slaughter over 3 years. slaughter over all missions and tilesets and levels. 

now they come with hema and expect me to plant roots in one of 2 nodes because thats somehow playing the game?

the least they could've done was make it drop in dark sectors, or even infested invasions, which would make some sense at least? slap it on infested, keep it rare and give people more options besides derelict.

if they are so set against people's stockpiles, the community has time and time suggested resource sinks. donating to projects such as relay restorations, donating to syndicates, i don't even know anymore. 

i have some 10k of control modules. 'rare' resource. yet i'll never spend them. or alloy plates. or nano spores. or anything really. and instead of coming up with sinks for those, DE likes to slap on new ridiculous rare resources. or hema apparently.. get your poop together DE

[Naskoni]

8 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

ODS and ODD baby. pick your poison :^) 

im a filthy casual. i don't care about cost per se. my 2 men clan will get it eventually. what grinds my gears is constant 'we don't want you to farm we want you to PLAYYYY' parole, and yet 'uuuuuuuhhhh take your nekroses and farm your butts off in the clunky ugliest piece of tileset we have because...we don't want you to farm? play the game doods'

when they came with sibear, i shrugged, because i liked playing excavations and had tons of stuff lying around, and there was at least one mission type on any tileset. 

when they came with vauban prime, i didn't care to get him, but i have 35k oxium stockpiled from casual corpus slaughter over 3 years. slaughter over all missions and tilesets and levels. 

now they come with hema and expect me to plant roots in one of 2 nodes because thats somehow playing the game?

the least they could've done was make it drop in dark sectors, or even infested invasions, which would make some sense at least? slap it on infested, keep it rare and give people more options besides derelict.

if they are so set against people's stockpiles, the community has time and time suggested resource sinks. donating to projects such as relay restorations, donating to syndicates, i don't even know anymore. 

i have some 10k of control modules. 'rare' resource. yet i'll never spend them. or alloy plates. or nano spores. or anything really. and instead of coming up with sinks for those, DE likes to slap on new ridiculous rare resources. or hema apparently.. get your poop together DE

I think you're missing point. DE doesn't want you to farm to get stuff for free (or even worse - by accumulating resources by playing casually), DE wants you to buy everything for plat instead. And since we, registered losers, refuse to buy (enough or most) stuff with plat (in a free-to-play game, the nerve!) DE is basically going along the lines of "Look at what you make us do to you!"