Zeclem Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 how do you expect a frame to get nerfed in a way that it only hurts her with a single weapon? cus i dont see that happening. is it a powerful combo that takes no skill? yup. but *raises the flame shield* there are combos just as strong. ive never seen it on pubs but torid+saryn is really really powerful as well. but i guess thats more for actual endurance runs rather than pubs/sorties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEATHLOK Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 On 1/11/2017 at 9:34 AM, proxyvirus said: why? is that not the point of the frame? why take away its feature becuase you said so? theres no issue with it, and its pretty good for high dmg, so your saying, cut out her effect? take away the weapon? again... why? you claimed cancer, and that is not a reason at all. I'll bet he begged for Ash to be Nerf hammered into oblivion. Mirage & Simulor is a problem on low-level missions. It only takes a few spammers to ruin a great number of low-level missions. I don't think Synoid Simulor is the problem. But if they drop a nuke on Mirage's Hall of Mirrors (and they probably will, very soon), what else does she have to offer? Prism? It's an awful situation. Hall of Mirrors defines Mirage. When they Nerf it, that frame is toast. I don't play Mirage, myself, so I don't care what they do. I can't imagine anyone spending time or money balancing Mirage properly—it's just going to get nuked, and this will further damage the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Demon Intellect Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 On 1/11/2017 at 9:31 AM, Insizer said: I think that I'm not alone in saying this, but please DE, for the love of god and all that is holy, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor. It is damn near cancer to the game. There are many things that can be done: nerf Synoid Simulor, nerf Mirage, make it so that the simulor orbs from a clone cannot combine with those of the other clones and the actual user, make it so that each shot requires a short charge up. I don't particularly care, I just want this issue fixed. It has been the greater part of a year, and nothing has been done at all despite this being one of the most requested and complained about things on the forums. I just want this fixed and have the fix actually work without making the simulor series useless. If they nerf the simulor that really won't be fair because nothing is innately wrong with the weapon and it won't stop mirage from moving on to the tonk or another weapon. Mirage is fine as she is, if they make a change it needs to be with Mirage plus Simulor together. If they nerf either individually it wouldn't be a good change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGDraxos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 The fact is this game is, ultimately, PVE. I dont really see the point in nerfing things in the game unless they are unfun and make the game unenjoyable becuase at that point why should you play this game over something else? Mirage by hersel fisnt hte issue. The Synoid Simulor isnt the issue. It is the way it works in combination that isnt fun for the other 3 people in the squad and, I suspect, for the Mirage herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CactusButtons Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 On 1/11/2017 at 7:31 AM, Insizer said: I think that I'm not alone in saying this, but please DE, for the love of god and all that is holy, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor. It is damn near cancer to the game. There are many things that can be done: nerf Synoid Simulor, nerf Mirage, make it so that the simulor orbs from a clone cannot combine with those of the other clones and the actual user, make it so that each shot requires a short charge up. I don't particularly care, I just want this issue fixed. It has been the greater part of a year, and nothing has been done at all despite this being one of the most requested and complained about things on the forums. I just want this fixed and have the fix actually work without making the simulor series useless. You know there's booter programs/websites right. I do this when they join. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, PGDraxos said: The fact is this game is, ultimately, PVE. I dont really see the point in nerfing things in the game unless they are unfun and make the game unenjoyable becuase at that point why should you play this game over something else? Mirage by hersel fisnt hte issue. The Synoid Simulor isnt the issue. It is the way it works in combination that isnt fun for the other 3 people in the squad and, I suspect, for the Mirage herself. PvE still needs balancing to prevent people from not being challenged, and in a co-op space, to prevent co-op partners from being outclassed. It's not the same as PvP balancing by a long shot but it's still necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 12 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: Ok i smell an dictator here , A dictator that fights for the rights of every person to enjoy playing their own way without others interfering with their fun? Yeah, that's exactly how a dictator works, they always try to uphold freedom of expression and such. 12 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: You're fun .. hmm how about others .. non the less you dictate again in this .. you decide what may and may not allowed Exit the Mission and restart if you feel unconfortable playing with spammers .. Go recruite channel and group up people that are fit you're needs ( The chance is bigger that you'll end up with OP tennos or Spam tennos in public than solo. i dont make an big fuzz out of this ,, even when i cant stand Ember ,, i just deal with the fact everyone is welcome . and plays with everthing they like My exact point here was that normal players shouldn't have to exit public missions because of other players taking over all the fun. It's a public space. If I'm walking through the city centre and a weird guy starts messing with me, it's my right to have someone do something about him (eg the police) rather than just going "oh well its his city now" and leaving. 12 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: -- Well there aint such an thing as an kick option >.< dont try to make the story bigger than it is -- ( Something that isnt there dont try to make it one ) I don't mean literally using the kick function to get out of the game, I mean that the normal player has effectively been forced to leave so that they can enjoy themselves, as per my previous argument on why people shouldn't have to leave public lobbies to have fun. 12 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: Well i just gave my opinion deal with it .. and iam not an newcomer if you think that and i dont give kneejerk reactions you havent see any kneejerk from me yet ---- > i mean that dont cry when people telling you the thruth The fact that all of your arguments have already been made previously in the thread shows me that you aren't really reading into the thread, rather just reading the OP's post then skipping through 5 pages of discussion to post your unoriginal comments. At this point Yes it's your opinion but I also have my opinion, the way a debate works is that two people argue their own opinions, if you aren't willing to have your opinion challenged then there's no point in entering the discussion. You believe that your side is the truth, I believe that my side is the truth. Neither side is correct until the discussion is completed and one side submits, that's also how a debate works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)mahoshonenfox Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 On 1/11/2017 at 11:00 PM, PUR3K1LL3R said: If people are only using Mirage's for the Simulor combo it has, (Which almost all of them do) then there's a problem. What about using Mirage with Telos Boltace sliding attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGDraxos Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 15 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said: What about using Mirage with Telos Boltace sliding attack? You know I actually havent seen that happen. Mostly becaue Mirages only use the Simulaor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CactusButtons Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, PGDraxos said: You know I actually havent seen that happen. Mostly becaue Mirages only use the Simulaor. I use to do mirage melee combo, spin attacking my way through the match with boltace, orthos prime, scoliac, atterax, bo prime, dual kamas or sydon. It's a bit buggy tho as not always does your dopple gangars get hits with the melee's. Kinda y I haven't done it for a while. Mirage pre nerf was interception god, most of my 6% time used with mirage as be in 1 t4 interception matches for 4-6 hrs at a time farming ducats. Edited January 13, 2017 by (PS4)CactusButtons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velothed Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 My main problem with SymulorMirage is how annoying it is. Probably has a lot to do with visuals, when maps are filled with blinding vortexes that kill everything, it's not the damage I mind, it's that the game is no fun for the teammates anymore. Of course you could put the effort in to outdamage her, but why? Stuff is allready dying left right and center, you're just along for the ride. It's the same problem people had with Ash. Not that he's killing a lot of stuff, but that they can't do anything (With SymMirage because everything is allready dead or can't be seen due to visuals, with ash because marked enemies are immune) Nerfing either one is not the answer though. For me personally a visual overwork for the simulor would do the trick. Another Idea I had just now would be a slight nerf to the simulor, how about at a certain amount of vortexes, damage goes down a bit(temporarily) say you allready got 10 vortexes in a corridor, adding that 11th would make them weaker. Or if vortexes are present for long stretches of time... The immense power of the combo isn't the problem, a whole map filled with explosions forever is a problem. It's like Equinox with maim in low level missions, only everywhere on every difficulty and a lot more visually annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CactusButtons Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, Vethalon said: My main problem with SymulorMirage is how annoying it is. Probably has a lot to do with visuals, when maps are filled with blinding vortexes that kill everything, it's not the damage I mind, it's that the game is no fun for the teammates anymore. Of course you could put the effort in to outdamage her, but why? Stuff is allready dying left right and center, you're just along for the ride. It's the same problem people had with Ash. Not that he's killing a lot of stuff, but that they can't do anything (With SymMirage because everything is allready dead or can't be seen due to visuals, with ash because marked enemies are immune) Nerfing either one is not the answer though. For me personally a visual overwork for the simulor would do the trick. Another Idea I had just now would be a slight nerf to the simulor, how about at a certain amount of vortexes, damage goes down a bit(temporarily) say you allready got 10 vortexes in a corridor, adding that 11th would make them weaker. Or if vortexes are present for long stretches of time... The immense power of the combo isn't the problem, a whole map filled with explosions forever is a problem. It's like Equinox with maim in low level missions, only everywhere on every difficulty and a lot more visually annoying. Ranged weapons always outperform simulor. I love it when a mirage/simulor joins and I'm using trinity or Nekros with ranged primary and secondaries and end up with double the kills mirage has, but the sound effects of the simulor is very annoying especially when all they do is spam the trigger. Sometimes I do try to follow them n use my ranged weapons on enemies they're looking at and shooting towards, taking their kills n laughing when they complain to me about it, or say "WTF how did I get the least kills" after match ends then back out shortly after. Quanta vandal with combustion beam or sobek with acid shells is a great weapon to counter mirage/simulor taking all the fun. Also having projectile weapons with punch through never hurts i.e Karak or soma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DERPY_SMOOG Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 1 hour ago, (PS4)CactusButtons said: Ranged weapons always outperform simulor. ... Quanta vandal with combustion beam or sobek with acid shells is a great weapon to counter mirage/simulor taking all the fun. Also having projectile weapons with punch through never hurts i.e Karak or soma. try the phage with combustion beam and 100% multi shot. it worse then the simulor in room clearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyCharm Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I would be happy just to limit the simulor to one vortex on screen at once. I mean it'd mean she can still spam, just I wouldn't see glowy neon spheres all over the screen everywhere I went Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaintedReality Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 If you're gonna nerf Mirage + Synoid Simulor then you better nerf mirage with every other AOE weapon. Or just nerf Hall of Mirrors and ruin what she was designed for. You know, sometimes, things can be op. It's okay to have an easy mode for stuff. Mirage + Synoid Simulor might not be fun for you but it is fun for quite a few other people. If I'm honest though, in my 2 years of playing, I've only been in a squad with a Mirage + Synoid Simulor around 12 times and I myself have never played this combination for no special reason. Let people enjoy things, god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-_Highlander_- Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, YUNoJump said: A dictator that fights for the rights of every person to enjoy playing their own way without others interfering with their fun? Yeah, that's exactly how a dictator works, they always try to uphold freedom of expression and such. My exact point here was that normal players shouldn't have to exit public missions because of other players taking over all the fun. It's a public space. If I'm walking through the city centre and a weird guy starts messing with me, it's my right to have someone do something about him (eg the police) rather than just going "oh well its his city now" and leaving. I don't mean literally using the kick function to get out of the game, I mean that the normal player has effectively been forced to leave so that they can enjoy themselves, as per my previous argument on why people shouldn't have to leave public lobbies to have fun. The fact that all of your arguments have already been made previously in the thread shows me that you aren't really reading into the thread, rather just reading the OP's post then skipping through 5 pages of discussion to post your unoriginal comments. At this point Yes it's your opinion but I also have my opinion, the way a debate works is that two people argue their own opinions, if you aren't willing to have your opinion challenged then there's no point in entering the discussion. You believe that your side is the truth, I believe that my side is the truth. Neither side is correct until the discussion is completed and one side submits, that's also how a debate works. A dictator that fights for the rights of every person to enjoy playing their own way Exactly you're own way .. statement correct everyone is free to do what ever they want to do -- seems not allowed if you read the Title ! ------------------------------------------------------------------- My exact point here was that normal players shouldn't have to exit public missions because of other players taking over all the fun. It's a public space -- for this you can stand somewhere else in the map almost everyone is doeing that . evading eachother -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't mean literally using the kick function to get out of the game, I mean that the normal player has effectively been forced to leave so that they can enjoy themselves, as per my previous argument on why people shouldn't have to leave public lobbies to have fun. -- Yeah but how about Spoof nova >.< what if you gonna meet her in game !! are you gonna say the same thing ,, gues so because nobody may do what they wanna do then communicate in chat while you are in the group .. srlsy only then you can comprimise ,,, As long nobody touches you're enemy its fine .. but ooo when they do all screaming is comming --- they taking away my fun bla bla bla // Beeing forced is something that you only choose the do so ,, dont blame it on the players around you you need to adjust -- thats public .. try make an group from Reqruite channel youll have an diffrent team with more vision to play with .. so you're fun will not be spoiled I see regulary Nova's in my misison when set to public spoofing all my enemys .. you know what i love it why .. its her function to do so just as ember set everyone on fire we just have to deal with that . Public ( Means Random Tenno's ) thats asking for supprises and that you agree to everyone that joins no mather what they have as setup --------------------------------------------------------------------- The fact that all of your arguments have already been made previously in the thread shows me that you aren't really reading into the thread, rather just reading the OP's post then skipping through 5 pages of discussion to post your unoriginal comments. At this point Well i came for the Title : For the love of god, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor so i try to defend my game play thats allowed are you gonna harras everyone that has an opinion on the same topic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes it's your opinion but I also have my opinion, the way a debate works is that two people argue their own opinions, if you aren't willing to have your opinion challenged then there's no point in entering the discussion. Oh you want a challenge is this al about wow you are sinking realy low nvm you arent any challenge to me >.< iam smarter than that And btw if you are directing to me you ask for an disscussion .. oh wait thats the forum all about and i did enter an disscusion about Mirage + Simulor << called as the title said ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You believe that your side is the truth, I believe that my side is the truth. Neither side is correct until the discussion is completed and one side submits, that's also how a debate works I gues you are in war somehow .. submit is the same as surrender ,, i dont do surrender to no one let that be clear I only work with solutions not with Forceing things and breaking things while it works just fine And its to the Devs to decide if they adjust Mirage or not I think its total BS adding nerfs again when Mirage is nerfed by devs again i say IF ... . there will be something else that is ruing you're day, are you gonna blame that to everything that touches you're fun Here is an artice from U17.5 ( Only two clones from Mirage’s Hall of mirrors now fire projectiles. This change has been made in order to help improve performance issues. Damage has been increased on the remaining clones to compensate. ) << they already nerfed it in U17,5 no more nerfs on Mirage .. and still :( people are complaining --------------------------------------------------------------------- But non the less my respect to you will not be less for this :) ___ Let the Devs decide what to do with Mirage ___ Edited January 13, 2017 by GameKingMike334 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-_Highlander_- Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 37 minutes ago, TaintedReality said: If you're gonna nerf Mirage + Synoid Simulor then you better nerf mirage with every other AOE weapon. Or just nerf Hall of Mirrors and ruin what she was designed for. You know, sometimes, things can be op. It's okay to have an easy mode for stuff. Mirage + Synoid Simulor might not be fun for you but it is fun for quite a few other people. If I'm honest though, in my 2 years of playing, I've only been in a squad with a Mirage + Synoid Simulor around 12 times and I myself have never played this combination for no special reason. Let people enjoy things, god. Dude love you're post ! :) Only if the rest could see it to Warframes are designed to do abilitys Mirage where early days way OP then now .. How can this be oure fault ( when Devs Designed spammable weapons ) and give it to us to play with Mirage where before the Simulor then no one was crying for nerfs .. and the Devs decide to adjust it for performance .. everyone whent happy after .. Until the simulor got used by Mirage and all hell breaks loose Just as they nerfed Synoid gammacor ,, all hell breaks loos reason .. its not OP anymore ,,so LOL this people want to play OP and jet they wanna break the weapon and warframes only becuase allies are OP more than you ( not you personaly but globaly ) Tenno's here is the solution .. Equip you'rself with better mods >.< learn from experienced players that have build the greatest set already, be OP to and stop wining So horrible talking about fun ( Tennos are building themselfs against lvl 100+ ) thats for an reason .. thats OP to are we gonna nerf thos guys to only because they are build for 100+ its so stupid nerfing you'reself while the enemys getting stronger and difficult to destroy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Ozymandias-13- Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I see a lot of comments saying the Simmulor is fine by itself, but really it still shouldn't do as much if not more damage than the self-damaging weapons without that obvious drawback and over a wider area. There's a lot of solutions that will fix it by itself. There will still be minor tweaks needed to how Mirage handles these types of weapons though but she's not really the bulk of the problem. Mirage is fine. Synoid Simmulor is broken, and is ridiculous broken with Mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicom-EN- Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 An option to disable ally elemental FX or something would be nice. Or decrease the FX of Simulor for other players. Telos Boltace also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: A dictator that fights for the rights of every person to enjoy playing their own way Exactly you're own way .. statement correct everyone is free to do what ever they want to do -- seems not allowed if you read the Title ! No... I said "their" not "[my] own", don't twist my words. What I mean is that everyone has the right to play their own way, without other people ruining that fun, to the maximum posssible extent. If a certain way of playing shuts down all other ways then there's a quandary in that one player has to change for other people to be free to do their own thing, but that's not uncommon, and if Miragulor is the only way you can have fun in the game then you need to re-evaluate how you're playing. It's a tough compromise but a necessary one. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: -- for this you can stand somewhere else in the map almost everyone is doeing that . evading eachother -- Somewhere else in the map? most missions are linear. You can either stand behind them, aka where they've killed everything, or ahead of them. In order to stand ahead of them, you have to either run past enemies without killing them, which basically means you're avoiding kills in order to get away from the thing that stops you from getting kills; or you can try and outpace the Miragulor user, which you can't do as per this entire thread. You see the issue? 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: Beeing forced is something that you only choose the do so You might want to check the definition of "forced" there buddy, I think you might find that it doesn't mean what you think it means. And yes, I'm not ACTUALLY forced to leave, but as per my argument, if i'm not having fun and the only alternative is to leave, then I'm basically required to leave if i want to take part in what is by far the primary objective of videogames in general, enjoyment. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: you need to adjust -- thats public .. try make an group from Reqruite channel youll have an diffrent team with more vision to play with .. so you're fun will not be spoiled Why should I have to adjust in order to enjoy myself alongside another group of people that don't have any right to force me to change? that's like saying racial groups etc should just mold to society and abandon their own culture because they need to fit in and assimilate others. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: -- Yeah but how about Spoof nova >.< what if you gonna meet her in game !! are you gonna say the same thing ,, gues so because nobody may do what they wanna do I assume you mean speed Nova, but I also understand your argument for Nova in general. Nova doesn't instantly kill enemies with MP, they are simply marked. Other players still get to actually kill the enemies, look out for them, etc. That's more agency than when a Miragulor user instantly kills anything in her path, a path that is linear for the whole squad in most missions, without even having to do anything other than choose the direction to walk in and spam left click. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: just as ember set everyone on fire WoF doesn't deal nearly as much damage as Miragulor, and Ember doesn't get powerful damage diversion while using it. There's a big difference. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: Well i came for the Title : For the love of god, please do something about Mirage + Synoid Simulor so i try to defend my game play thats allowed are you gonna harras everyone that has an opinion on the same topic Threads aren't just their title, they're the discussion behind them, that's why these are the WF "forums" not the WF "Facebook Feed". The very fact that you are commenting and continuing to debate me proves this. Also as per the "forum" moniker, expressing your opinion in this public space also allows other people to critique that opinion and argue their own, that's freedom of speech. You are actually doing this to the OP's opinion with your comments, and I am doing this to your comments in turn. Your opinion has no greater claim on objectivity than any other opinion shown here. In fact, if anyone is "harassing" anyone else, it's you, this thread originated as a thread about the Miragulor being OP but you came in and critiqued that. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: Oh you want a challenge is this al about wow you are sinking realy low nvm you arent any challenge to me >.< iam smarter than that And btw if you are directing to me you ask for an disscussion .. oh wait thats the forum all about and i did enter an disscusion about Mirage + Simulor << called as the title said Well I'm not really challenging you, I agree with the original opinion shown on this thread, and you actually came in to challenge it. You're the challenger here, if you didn't want a discussion then why did you post. I'm happy to argue my and the OP's viewpoint because I believe it's true, I don't have some love of interacting with people I think are wrong, but I am willing to defend my views. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: I gues you are in war somehow .. submit is the same as surrender ,, i dont do surrender to no one let that be clear I only work with solutions not with Forceing things and breaking things while it works just fine Well both sides of an argument have to be willing to accept their opponent's views if they are shown to be logical, hypothetically or truthfully, I am ready to be shown that Miragulor is balanced, but if you are apparently completely unwilling to engage in a standard debate then there's no real reason for you to continue arguing. If you are willing to try and understand my points then keep arguing, but arguing with a brick wall that has a bunch of words written on it isn't really compelling for me. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: when Mirage is nerfed by devs again i say IF ... . there will be something else that is ruing you're day, are you gonna blame that to everything that touches you're fun Yes, there will be some less powerful OP build that people use, but what a lot of people on this forum don't get is the difference between Miragulor and just about every other build. The thing is, Miragulor requires pretty much no thinking to set up, and also requires literally no skill to pull off, even aiming isn't even required as explosions are rapidly generated in front of you regardless of what threats you face. Mirage with any other AoE weapon still requires aiming in the general direction of enemies, and most of the time, the danger of self damage. Most Warframe builds designed to completely raze all enemies in a radius nonstop require you to either stay still or spend huge amounts of energy. Even WoF requires a proper build, and the caveat that you don't have any defences other than the assumption that all enemies around you will a) remain panicked by fire until they are dead and b) be killed quickly enough to be effective, something that doesn't really occur in higher level play with Ember. Overall, Miragulor is the easiest and fastest raze-build. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: Here is an artice from U17.5 ( Only two clones from Mirage’s Hall of mirrors now fire projectiles. This change has been made in order to help improve performance issues. Damage has been increased on the remaining clones to compensate. ) << they already nerfed it in U17,5 no more nerfs on Mirage .. and still :( people are complaining That nerf was clearly made because of performance, it says it right there. The devs probably didn't want to do it but Mirage is a PC-killer. And the clones got double damage to compensate anyway, they just fire less shots, which wouldn't even affect Miragulor as all of the balls pull together anyway, more balls with less damage has the exact same effect. You're implying that because a frame is nerfed once that it can never be nerfed again, as if balancing works on a quota, as opposed to how balanced it actually is. I believe in balance, through nerfs and buffs and reworks, nerfs are an important part of balancing that a lot of people don't understand. I'll give you this link to check out why, but I don't want to argue about whether nerfs are inherently bad, I want to argue about whether Miragulor needs a nerf, so please read it and don't challenge me on its (and my) opinion for that. Personally I believe that the best thing to do is stop HoM clones' simulor balls to merge with true Mirage's and other clones', so the issue of mirage being useless after the nerf doesn't fit my opinion. 3 hours ago, GameKingMike334 said: ___ Let the Devs decide what to do with Mirage ___ I agree that the devs should be allowed to get the final say on their game, but their primary goal is to allow players to enjoy the game, so they need to pay attention to threads regarding fun, like this one. If we never commented on what is fun then the devs would have a much poorer idea of what we want. And they may indeed have something planned for Miragulor, who knows, we're only now seeing good Nullifier changes after years of people complaining about their effect on slow RoF weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackviator Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Good lord, the comments on this post... I love it when people play the "stop trying to decide what's fun for everyone" card when white-knighting this cancerous frame+weapon combination. The issue with this combo is the fact that it gives one person in a squad the power to determine the experience of everyone else in their group. They can just decide "well I don't enjoy this type of mission, I'm just here for the reward at the end, so we're going to get through this quickly, with minimal gameplay, and none of the rest of you get to do anything about it." Thing is, some of us kinda enjoy playing through this game, going through missions together and whatnot. That's kinda the point of, well... playing a game (Shocker, I know). So if all you want out of a mission is for it to be over already, I have to ask: Why the hell are you playing this game in the first place?! So if you truly think that it's wrong for someone else to decide what's fun for everyone, then you should be calling for this combo to get nerfed, too. Edited January 13, 2017 by Jackviator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackviator Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 16 hours ago, Zeclem said: how do you expect a frame to get nerfed in a way that it only hurts her with a single weapon? One idea I've seen thrown around and liked is to make it so that each Mirror clone's Simulor would "belong" to them, that is to say, make it so that the Simulor orbs could only combine with the orbs fired out by "their" weapon. That way they couldn't just instantly combine and nuke rooms as they do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Demon Intellect Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 9 hours ago, LuckyCharm said: I would be happy just to limit the simulor to one vortex on screen at once. I mean it'd mean she can still spam, just I wouldn't see glowy neon spheres all over the screen everywhere I went Why just remove the weapon from the game, since you seem to want it nerfed to oblivion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Demon Intellect Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, YUNoJump said: No... I said "their" not "[my] own", don't twist my words. What I mean is that everyone has the right to play their own way, without other people ruining that fun, to the maximum posssible extent. If a certain way of playing shuts down all other ways then there's a quandary in that one player has to change for other people to be free to do their own thing, but that's not uncommon, and if Miragulor is the only way you can have fun in the game then you need to re-evaluate how you're playing. It's a tough compromise but a necessary one. Somewhere else in the map? most missions are linear. You can either stand behind them, aka where they've killed everything, or ahead of them. In order to stand ahead of them, you have to either run past enemies without killing them, which basically means you're avoiding kills in order to get away from the thing that stops you from getting kills; or you can try and outpace the Miragulor user, which you can't do as per this entire thread. You see the issue? You might want to check the definition of "forced" there buddy, I think you might find that it doesn't mean what you think it means. And yes, I'm not ACTUALLY forced to leave, but as per my argument, if i'm not having fun and the only alternative is to leave, then I'm basically required to leave if i want to take part in what is by far the primary objective of videogames in general, enjoyment. Why should I have to adjust in order to enjoy myself alongside another group of people that don't have any right to force me to change? that's like saying racial groups etc should just mold to society and abandon their own culture because they need to fit in and assimilate others. I assume you mean speed Nova, but I also understand your argument for Nova in general. Nova doesn't instantly kill enemies with MP, they are simply marked. Other players still get to actually kill the enemies, look out for them, etc. That's more agency than when a Miragulor user instantly kills anything in her path, a path that is linear for the whole squad in most missions, without even having to do anything other than choose the direction to walk in and spam left click. WoF doesn't deal nearly as much damage as Miragulor, and Ember doesn't get powerful damage diversion while using it. There's a big difference. Threads aren't just their title, they're the discussion behind them, that's why these are the WF "forums" not the WF "Facebook Feed". The very fact that you are commenting and continuing to debate me proves this. Also as per the "forum" moniker, expressing your opinion in this public space also allows other people to critique that opinion and argue their own, that's freedom of speech. You are actually doing this to the OP's opinion with your comments, and I am doing this to your comments in turn. Your opinion has no greater claim on objectivity than any other opinion shown here. In fact, if anyone is "harassing" anyone else, it's you, this thread originated as a thread about the Miragulor being OP but you came in and critiqued that. Well I'm not really challenging you, I agree with the original opinion shown on this thread, and you actually came in to challenge it. You're the challenger here, if you didn't want a discussion then why did you post. I'm happy to argue my and the OP's viewpoint because I believe it's true, I don't have some love of interacting with people I think are wrong, but I am willing to defend my views. Well both sides of an argument have to be willing to accept their opponent's views if they are shown to be logical, hypothetically or truthfully, I am ready to be shown that Miragulor is balanced, but if you are apparently completely unwilling to engage in a standard debate then there's no real reason for you to continue arguing. If you are willing to try and understand my points then keep arguing, but arguing with a brick wall that has a bunch of words written on it isn't really compelling for me. Yes, there will be some less powerful OP build that people use, but what a lot of people on this forum don't get is the difference between Miragulor and just about every other build. The thing is, Miragulor requires pretty much no thinking to set up, and also requires literally no skill to pull off, even aiming isn't even required as explosions are rapidly generated in front of you regardless of what threats you face. Mirage with any other AoE weapon still requires aiming in the general direction of enemies, and most of the time, the danger of self damage. Most Warframe builds designed to completely raze all enemies in a radius nonstop require you to either stay still or spend huge amounts of energy. Even WoF requires a proper build, and the caveat that you don't have any defences other than the assumption that all enemies around you will a) remain panicked by fire until they are dead and b) be killed quickly enough to be effective, something that doesn't really occur in higher level play with Ember. Overall, Miragulor is the easiest and fastest raze-build. That nerf was clearly made because of performance, it says it right there. The devs probably didn't want to do it but Mirage is a PC-killer. And the clones got double damage to compensate anyway, they just fire less shots, which wouldn't even affect Miragulor as all of the balls pull together anyway, more balls with less damage has the exact same effect. You're implying that because a frame is nerfed once that it can never be nerfed again, as if balancing works on a quota, as opposed to how balanced it actually is. I believe in balance, through nerfs and buffs and reworks, nerfs are an important part of balancing that a lot of people don't understand. I'll give you this link to check out why, but I don't want to argue about whether nerfs are inherently bad, I want to argue about whether Miragulor needs a nerf, so please read it and don't challenge me on its (and my) opinion for that. Personally I believe that the best thing to do is stop HoM clones' simulor balls to merge with true Mirage's and other clones', so the issue of mirage being useless after the nerf doesn't fit my opinion. I agree that the devs should be allowed to get the final say on their game, but their primary goal is to allow players to enjoy the game, so they need to pay attention to threads regarding fun, like this one. If we never commented on what is fun then the devs would have a much poorer idea of what we want. And they may indeed have something planned for Miragulor, who knows, we're only now seeing good Nullifier changes after years of people complaining about their effect on slow RoF weapons. I love it when people take things at face value it just shows how naive they are. What sounds better, we are nerfing in mirage to help with performance issues or we are nerfing in mirage because she is OP. Edited January 13, 2017 by (XB1)Demon Intellect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Currilicious Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 And out come the Holy Crusades types. When you argue about how no one's fun should be compromised, did you think about how a nerf will affect people that main a Mirage? You can choose to leave a game if a Mirage nuking everything annoys you. A nerf means people that likes Mirage gets the shaft whether they use the pew-pew-o'doom or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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