What Ash is meant to be as a playable warframe

[Shad0wWatcher]

No worries guys it's not gonna be an angry rant.

So to explain the reason for this topic. Ash himself is a ninja in every sense of the word...or at least he is supposed to be. Let it be known that having a skill called "shuriken" doesn't make you a ninja. Anyway, why does everything that DE has put into Ash come off as lazy?

Now hear me out for a sec, with lazy i am not just referring to his latest revisit (say what you want, DE did put in the title "Ash Revisited", not rework) but also the presentation of his deluxe skin. Don't get me wrong, up till now, among the male frames, this is my favorite skin. Now look i know DE has been busy, i know they have plenty on their mind, stress of the job, delivering to a player base that sometimes seems to be waiting for a bucket of Galatine primes, Nikana primes and Venka primes ready to rip into DE if they manage to not give what players want...which is really something we need to work on as a community. But would it have taken that much time to at the very least put him in an alternative pose? It's not a really important thing but, why do it for Frost and Loki but then not for Ash and Oberon, come on guys keep it consistent. 

Now let's look at Ash and what he is and what he's supposed to be. Ash is supposed to be based on the pop-culture ninja, so with that i mean ninjas like Ryu Hayabusa, game portrayals of Hattori Hanzo, Shinobi's Oboro Hotsuma, Joe Musashi, ect. If he's meant to be a ninja, where's the poison bomb, where's the actual usage of ninja tools. To put it simple...his revisit didn't fix anything tbh, bladestorm's main issue, or at least what the community said, was the fact that you can't break out of bladestorm, the enemy invincibility,  and the cinematic's or as the community calls it "the motion-sickness cam", yet the change made to bladestorm changed none of those things which begs the question: How much thought was put into it? This is actually an important question. The first concept, while i agreed with Scott in saying it sounded stupidly OP, actually sounded interesting and i would've loved to see it. What we have now is pretty much what we had, and while i still use it from time to time, i mostly just use it cause i think the black smoke looks awesome. Which is a bad thing actually.

It's just a thing i'm noticing, Ash seems to get less and less attention in terms of detail, for example: when using Javlock, his idle animation is basically looking left and right and that's for both his agile and his noble pose, my question is why? It looks to me like a missed opportunity to inject a little more badass into him, he's the pop-culture ninja, let him do a pose, the pose he should've had was given to Loki which(while i'm slightly salty about it...) i'll let go. But still it feels like he is getting more and more forgotten while he's the warframe who is supposed to be the ninja in this "ninja game"

My point is, why is,again, the ninja....in a ninja game...receiving little to no love from it's creators? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Let it be known, i'm not angry, just...disappointed and a little frustrated, DE i love you guys, you guys are responsible for the existence of 1 of my fav games.

It's just something i would love to discus with players who actually love Ash. Cause i know there are plenty of people who hate Ash.

[(XBOX)ThermalStone]

If bad poses is your main criticism of Ash, he's probably doing fine.  

As far as bladestorm, the main community complaint was that he was a press 4 to win.  DE nerfed this by making his skill more time consuming and clunky to use.  Not that I agree with this change but that's what the main complaint was.

Edited January 13, 2017 by (XB1)ThermalStone

[NativeKiller]

4 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

To put it simple... his revisit didn't fix anything tbh.

This pretty much.

 

With the Ash rework, Smokescreen got buffed, Bladestorm got nerfed hard, and fundamental problems with Bladestorm yet remain to be dealt with.

Edited January 13, 2017 by NativeKiller

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)ThermalStone said:

If bad poses is your main criticism of Ash, he's probably doing fine.  

As far as bladestorm, the main community complaint was that he was a press 4 to win.  DE nerfed this by making his skill more time consuming and clunky to use.  Not that I agree with this change but that's what the main complaint was.

Funny thing is...it's not my main concern, i just rattled on too long cause...fashion...but i digress, my main critisism with Ash is his skills and basically what he's being seen as lately.

[-Amaterasu-]

9 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

If he's meant to be a ninja, where's the poison bomb, where's the actual usage of ninja tools.

Just because his smoke bomb isn't poison doesn't mean it doesn't fit into the whole ninja thing, in fact basically everything in his kit is ninja.

1. Shuriken = Ninja tool

2.Smoke Bomb = Ninja tool

3. Teleport = Ninja move

4. Hidden Blade = Ninja + assassination style moves which is basically what ninjas do

Ash is one of the oldest frames (I don't actually think Toxin was an element back then so no poison to be had) so his skills clearly aren't going to be over the top but they're still perfectly ninja and while I agree BS wasn't handled as well as it could have been they did manage to fix the problem which was BS spam to kill everything.

[Shad0wWatcher]

1 minute ago, -Amaterasu- said:

Just because his smoke bomb isn't poison doesn't mean it doesn't fit into the whole ninja thing, in fact basically everything in his kit is ninja.

1. Shuriken = Ninja tool

2.Smoke Bomb = Ninja tool

3. Teleport = Ninja move

4. Hidden Blade = Ninja + assassination style moves which is basically what ninjas do

Ash is one of the oldest frames (I don't actually think Toxin was an element back then so no poison to be had) so his skills clearly aren't going to be over the top but they're still perfectly ninja and while I agree BS wasn't handled as well as it could have been they did manage to fix the problem which was BS spam to kill everything.

While you are correct about his current kit, Bladestorm is still being spammed like crazy now tho, for those who play with mouse and keyboard it's even easier, targeting enemies is as simple as wiggling with your mouse like crazy and pressing 4 again.

[-Amaterasu-]

10 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

While you are correct about his current kit, Bladestorm is still being spammed like crazy now tho, for those who play with mouse and keyboard it's even easier, targeting enemies is as simple as wiggling with your mouse like crazy and pressing 4 again.

Maybe I haven't seen enough ashes then? I personally use fatal teleport and shuriken more than anything.

[Carnage2K4]

I feel like OP missed the point of what was wrong with ash, and is instead disappointed that his version of a ninja was not implemented.

I've played Ash more since his rework, as the 'press 4 to win' version was not something I enjoyed playing.

I think his abilities go well together now, hit 4 to start ticking, hit 2 to cloak, then use 3 to take heavy mods out while you tick up, Rakta Proc triggers blade storm whats left. It's actually fun now.

The motion sickness issue was a only felt by a handful of people it was never the main issue with ash. 4 players going in and ash getting 80% of the kills/damage in every game was the issue... they were not fun to play with.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Ash isn't meant to be a 100% authentic Ninja, if that's what you're after then maybe Warframe isn't for you. "ninja-style" is just a loose theme for him, same as Mesa being a gunslinger, Limbo being a Gentleman etc.

I like Ash, and i like his rework, as now other players in the team can actually get kills if they want to. he's ninja enough for me.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Honestly I feel the community is just nitpicking with his rework.  Which isn't surprising since it happens with every rework.  His kit has more cohesion now.  His cloak serves a purpose other than invisibility.  On top of that it can now be used regardless of your current movement.  his teleport is more flexible now as well.  And while his 4 still accomplishes the same task it's still better than before.  I get to pick my targets which means less problems with enemies randomly being invincible.  I always liked the animations.  And the fact that people don't immediately flock to it anymore means the rest of his kit should be seeing more use.  it still does a load of damage and is still very good at killing.  so it's not like they made it useless either.

To be honest I feel like people are always expecting excalibur levels of reworks.  Ash didn't have as much problems as he did.  and while the blade storm didn't remove the animations like some asked it does give the player more control.  and due to the nature of the rework it sort of lessens the other issues i.e invincible enemies and watching yourself or others watching you stab the same enemy repeatedly.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Koga skin ingame description says he's a "master spy" lol how does that even work?

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

11 hours ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Koga skin ingame description says he's a "master spy" lol how does that even work?

Ikr, weird how they replaced ninja with spy.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Ikr, weird how they replaced ninja with spy.

What ninjas do:

Quote

A ninja (忍者^?) or shinobi (忍び^?) was a covert agent or mercenary in feudal Japan. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, assassination and guerrilla warfare.^[1] 

What espionage is:

Quote

Espionage (colloquially, spying) is the obtaining of information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information.^[1] 

 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

What ninjas do:

What espionage is:

 

Trust me, I know what ninja means. I was just saying that ninja would look better than spy for the koga description.

Edited January 13, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)abbacephas]

Maybe. But I remember someone else on the forums making a comment that his koga skin kinda has the Sam Fisher/Splinter Cell feel about it.

So there is that...

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Just now, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Maybe. But I remember someone else on the forums making a comment that his koga skin kinda has the Sam Fisher/Splinter Cell feel about it.

So there is that...

True

[UmbraDestroyer]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)ThermalStone said:

If bad poses is your main criticism of Ash, he's probably doing fine.  

As far as bladestorm, the main community complaint was that he was a press 4 to win.  DE nerfed this by making his skill more time consuming and clunky to use.  Not that I agree with this change but that's what the main complaint was.

Yeah  but arcane trickery now is not working, and ult consume goddamn a lot of energy

Edited January 13, 2017 by UmbraDestroyer

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Ash is a melee frame.

[Hypernaut1]

25 minutes ago, UmbraDestroyer said:

Yeah  but arcane trickery now is not working, and ult consume goddamn a lot of energy

Why do I keep seeing this repeated? This is completely false. If use trickery with Ash and it procs often.

[Hypernaut1]

33 minutes ago, UmbraDestroyer said:

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Shad0wWatcher]

I still love you people and this game

[Trickst3rGawd]

22 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

No worries guys it's not gonna be an angry rant.

So to explain the reason for this topic. Ash himself is a ninja in every sense of the word...or at least he is supposed to be. Let it be known that having a skill called "shuriken" doesn't make you a ninja. Anyway, why does everything that DE has put into Ash come off as lazy?

Now hear me out for a sec, with lazy i am not just referring to his latest revisit (say what you want, DE did put in the title "Ash Revisited", not rework) but also the presentation of his deluxe skin. Don't get me wrong, up till now, among the male frames, this is my favorite skin. Now look i know DE has been busy, i know they have plenty on their mind, stress of the job, delivering to a player base that sometimes seems to be waiting for a bucket of Galatine primes, Nikana primes and Venka primes ready to rip into DE if they manage to not give what players want...which is really something we need to work on as a community. But would it have taken that much time to at the very least put him in an alternative pose? It's not a really important thing but, why do it for Frost and Loki but then not for Ash and Oberon, come on guys keep it consistent. 

Now let's look at Ash and what he is and what he's supposed to be. Ash is supposed to be based on the pop-culture ninja, so with that i mean ninjas like Ryu Hayabusa, game portrayals of Hattori Hanzo, Shinobi's Oboro Hotsuma, Joe Musashi, ect. If he's meant to be a ninja, where's the poison bomb, where's the actual usage of ninja tools. To put it simple...his revisit didn't fix anything tbh, bladestorm's main issue, or at least what the community said, was the fact that you can't break out of bladestorm, the enemy invincibility,  and the cinematic's or as the community calls it "the motion-sickness cam", yet the change made to bladestorm changed none of those things which begs the question: How much thought was put into it? This is actually an important question. The first concept, while i agreed with Scott in saying it sounded stupidly OP, actually sounded interesting and i would've loved to see it. What we have now is pretty much what we had, and while i still use it from time to time, i mostly just use it cause i think the black smoke looks awesome. Which is a bad thing actually.

It's just a thing i'm noticing, Ash seems to get less and less attention in terms of detail, for example: when using Javlock, his idle animation is basically looking left and right and that's for both his agile and his noble pose, my question is why? It looks to me like a missed opportunity to inject a little more badass into him, he's the pop-culture ninja, let him do a pose, the pose he should've had was given to Loki which(while i'm slightly salty about it...) i'll let go. But still it feels like he is getting more and more forgotten while he's the warframe who is supposed to be the ninja in this "ninja game"

My point is, why is,again, the ninja....in a ninja game...receiving little to no love from it's creators? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Let it be known, i'm not angry, just...disappointed and a little frustrated, DE i love you guys, you guys are responsible for the existence of 1 of my fav games.

It's just something i would love to discus with players who actually love Ash. Cause i know there are plenty of people who hate Ash.

I feel your pain dude. It was a totally lazy rework and there was a lot of potential for it. I`m as dissapointed as you because I`m in love with his design..

Edited January 14, 2017 by Trickst3rGawd

[Shad0wWatcher]

17 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Ash isn't meant to be a 100% authentic Ninja, if that's what you're after then maybe Warframe isn't for you. "ninja-style" is just a loose theme for him, same as Mesa being a gunslinger, Limbo being a Gentleman etc.

I like Ash, and i like his rework, as now other players in the team can actually get kills if they want to. he's ninja enough for me.

You make a good point. And it's not precisely what i'm after, imma just accept it for what it is(his kit i mean) and go with the flow of the stream.

[Rakosta_Kai]

11 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

I still love you people and this game

If it helps, I agree with you...

Ash has never needed more damage. Even right after DMG 2.0 when Ash was at his worst, he didn't need more damage.

He needed scaling abilities.. whether mitigation or control that could make him party friendly 

DE wants him to be DPS though so he will always be a fairly binary character in this respect.

I personally would have loved to see Shuriken turned into a few different tools  (poison bombs, strangling powder,  blinding powder, etc) but it didn't happen and I don't expect it ever will.

...It's more diversity and options than they seem to want Ash to have.

That said, Ash seems to be  a lot more diverse play option wise than he was so that's a plus.

 

[Shad0wWatcher]

8 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

If it helps, I agree with you...

Ash has never needed more damage. Even right after DMG 2.0 when Ash was at his worst, he didn't need more damage.

He needed scaling abilities.. whether mitigation or control that could make him party friendly 

DE wants him to be DPS though so he will always be a fairly binary character in this respect.

I personally would have loved to see Shuriken turned into a few different tools  (poison bombs, strangling powder,  blinding powder, etc) but it didn't happen and I don't expect it ever will.

...It's more diversity and options than they seem to want Ash to have.

That said, Ash seems to be  a lot more diverse play option wise than he was so that's a plus.

 

Quite so my friend. Quite so. But this brings up a memory of back before his revisit. I put up a poll for the players to vote for what kind of ability they wanted Bladestorm to turn into. And ironically...we actually in a sense got what won in that poll, tho it was a tight vote between Ash getting an exalted wristblade and a more interactive bladestorm without changing it's concept. The latter won and that's what we got. What surprised me tho is how much backlash it got after it was put into the game. I like his revisit. I actually like it a lot, it's just that i feel like more could've been done, considering the amount of time they took to look into what he has.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Shad0wWatcher