Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[KaeseSchnitte]

3 minutes ago, TwevOWNED said:

Atterax: 6 Spins

Galatine: 12 seconds of hitting with Cleaving Whirlwind

Gas Lecta: 3 Spins

Gas Lesion: 3 hits

We must have different definitions of strongest melee.

Well, my gas Galatine took 16 hits to bring down 5 level 100 corrupted heavy gunners, so yeah. Pretty effective.

[2Peter3Nine]

 

1 minute ago, Nokah said:

As he is currently, that's correct: Limbo doesn't cope well with hordes.

However, that isn't a useful warframe. Warframe's encounter design is "Enjoy this incredibly high amount of enemies!" Single-target managing shouldn't be all his kit is good for. I know Cataclysm is sort of his secondary choice for this, but his kit is essentially "CC one powerful enemy and destroy them, or CC a target location with a Frost-ish bubble" when you use it against enemies.

The rework is meant to make him useful against hordes. He went from "I only pick out the big boys, and sometimes I deal with the small fry" to "I can deal with big boys *and* small fry, as long as I play my cards right". Stasis is basically the best CC the game has ever had - a literal time stop ability - and it combined with the AoE nature of the new Banish suddenly makes him quite powerful.

If fighting hordes is the only thing that is fun in this game, than I don't know what to say.

But I find it much funner to take things slowly,

because not only do you get to see the scenery, you get to feel it as well.

Limbo is best for me and my play style.

The only time I rush is when i'm in a public match.

When I solo, it's mostly slow and steady.

Cataclysm Sniper is my main limbo fighting style, but he's built for banish assassin too.

 

Cataclysm shouldn't be his 2ndary choice though. It should be an extravaganza!

 

He already is useful against hordes, but not in a DPS way.

Horde of enemies surrounding a downed friend? limbo will get him up no problem.

hordes of enemies attacking a hostage? limbo'll banish the hostage and keep him safe.

need a decoy? limbo can run right up to their face and they can't do anything to him.

need to one-hit kill a heavy safely? surging cataclysm sniper limbo here to save the day.

need a horde of enemies dead? well, go get ash or something.

the rework makes all of these setups dangerous for limbo, the hostage, and everyone really.

 

not every warframe needs to be able to kill all the  enemies with his powers.

[Voidforged]

The rework while fantastic is still a little clunky. I support all of these changes/additions with the preference that double tapping roll actually performs the dash, and single tap still acts as normal.

[KaeseSchnitte]

I'm not saying that it would be a problem, nor am I saying that your suggested change would ruin Limbo. But as it stands now, dashing in and out of the rift does neither have a cooldown, nor does it cost energy. Having to play around dodging in and out of the rift just seems like a fair drawback to the fact that Limbo can now ignore the entire level and every enemy in it and doesn't even have to worry about energy or ability uptime.

[KaeseSchnitte]

So now we are getting to the heart of the problem; you don't like the rework because it doesn't suit your playstyle. That is all fine and you are welcome to give your personal feedback, but don't expect others to naturally agree with you or DE to afjust frames to your liking. Because as it stands now, Limbo is one of the least played frames. And DE is right about and eligible to rework frames to make them more appealing to a wider playerbase.

[AdunSaveMe]

12 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

If crosshair is not aimed at an enemy let it function in an aoe. If it is aimed at an enemy let only that enemy be banished.

That's going to be far too clunky to make use of.

[Jackviator]

12 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

If crosshair is not aimed at an enemy let it function in an aoe. If it is aimed at an enemy let only that enemy be banished.

I like this idea. It sounds a little similar to Frost's 1, in a good way.

[Nokah]

1 minute ago, General_Durandal said:

If fighting hordes is the only thing that is fun in this game, than I don't know what to say.

That isn't really what I meant. The idea of the rework is to make him viable in multiple scenarios, and while you might enjoy taking your time, the rework's idea is that when waves of enemies are at 100-200 enemies per wave, Limbo's slow and steady approach is terribly difficult unless he's constantly popping Cataclysms. This makes it so you only have to use Banish and Stasis to kill multiple enemies at any given time - you don't have to slowly wait until being in the Rift gives you enough energy to use Banish.

It isn't that killing hordes is what's fun in the game, it's that some modes in this game want you to kill large groups of enemies quickly.

3 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Cataclysm shouldn't be his 2ndary choice though. It should be an extravaganza!

 

He already is useful against hordes, but not in a DPS way.

Horde of enemies surrounding a downed friend? limbo will get him up no problem.

hordes of enemies attacking a hostage? limbo'll banish the hostage and keep him safe.

need a decoy? limbo can run right up to their face and they can't do anything to him.

need to one-hit kill a heavy safely? surging cataclysm sniper limbo here to save the day.

need a horde of enemies dead? well, go get ash or something.

the rework makes all of these setups dangerous for limbo, the hostage, and everyone really.

 

not every warframe needs to be able to kill all the  enemies with his powers.

Cataclysm costs a lot of energy, and doesn't catch enemies immediately unless they're really dramatically clumping. It's not that it must be his secondary choice, it's that Cataclysm is fundamentally a "large cost, large reward" thing. You set it down and wait for people to run into it, and that's your goal, but Banish is faster, costs less energy, and now can let you still take out a group of enemies at once without ever putting yourself at risk because of them. This actually makes him, in some ways, more precise, because he now doesn't have to banish a group individually. If a toggle is implemented, he can choose if he wants 1 or many - and even if he only wants one and there is no toggle, Stasis makes it hard to say he wouldn't still benefit from grabbing groups, as long as he's not trying to kill a ton of high-level Stasis-resistant enemies.

The rework makes Limbo's defensive capacity less consistent in favor of giving him a better offensive capacity. It's a bit of a trade off, and it kinda hurts him, but a few tweaks to restore some of his precision and he'll have the same defensive capacity - and a better offensive capacity for it, too.

[Nokah]

6 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

I'm not saying that it would be a problem, nor am I saying that your suggested change would ruin Limbo. But as it stands now, dashing in and out of the rift does neither have a cooldown, nor does it cost energy. Having to play around dodging in and out of the rift just seems like a fair drawback to the fact that Limbo can now ignore the entire level and every enemy in it and doesn't even have to worry about energy or ability uptime.

Yeah, but Limbo can only ignore the entire level and every enemy in it in specific scenarios. Rescue still runs the risk of him alerting Wardens and being unable to deal with them, since he can't hack in the Rift. He can't carry the mobile defense item in Rift, last I checked. And most of the content in this game does require ample amounts of murder, which means he really can't just straight up ignore enemies. He can ignore rooms if he particularly wants to, but most people are going to have too much fun with ZA WARUDO to do that, to be honest with you.

Limbo has always been able to Rift Walk and ignore entire levels. The changes just remove his cast time and energy cost, but he already had an innate way to regen energy and didn't care as much about the cast time because it was only entering into the Rift - he exits without an animation. To be more direct, the changes they made to his Rift Walk into the Void Dash are sort of simplifying the fact that Void Walk was cheap and fast into "no-cost and instant", because it's hard to say that Rift Walk's cast time or cost were integral to his ability's look and feel. It was just a way for him to move in and out of the Void - thus why they changed it.

Maybe Limbo players deserve to only use bullet doublejumps and slide kicks for their wonderful za warudo skills, but I still think that adding it as a custom keybind would let them fix huge still-prevalent problems with Limbo.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

22 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Double tapping roll button will let you roll as normal.

I'd rather double tap roll do the dash instead, so the roll will always be the same regardless of frame

[(PSN)CrazyWill718]

TBH I was really hoping for some sort of teleport if they did that then that would solve the movement speed issue kind of. I also had hoped they would have allowed Limbo to move through enemies in the rift because it makes no sense that he can't.

[TwevOWNED]

2 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Even in the goddamn Devstream, Rebecca nearly died half of a dozen times playing with Limbo and she knew how his abilities were supposed to work. How does that look for people who are currently proficient with him? Not well, not well at all. 

No offense to her, but Rebecca is hardly the gold standard when it comes to min-maxing in Warframe, especially when she had a build not made for the new stats. I don't think what you said is a good argument.

[2Peter3Nine]

45 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

Any weapon with moderate damage and good status chance in combination witha stealth/gas build.

With moderate damage, you mean more than 100?

By stealth build you mean loki/ivara?

How would limbo get a stealth build then?

 

I'll use Jat Kittag.

Crushing ruin,

vicious frost, voltaic strike, drifting contact, spoiled strike,

volcanic edge, virulent scourge, fever strike, primed pressure point.

 

98% status chance.

with 546 mag, 955 gas, 22 slash, 68 puncture, 364 impact.

 

I'll be testing on a level 100 bombard.

 

try 1, as limbo,

Cast riftwalk, and surge, got up to him, cast banish,

he didn't get knocked down,

i hit him once, then i died.

 

try 2, as limbo,

Cast riftwalk, and surge, got up to him, cast banish,

he didn't fall down,

this time i hit him 18 times before dying.

 

try 3, switched spoiled strike with primed fury,

and switched out the bombard with a bombard eximus,

Cast riftwalk, and surge, got up to him, cast banish,

he did fall down and i got a finisher on him,

This time I hit him 20 times.

 

remember, limbo has buffs to everything while rifting,

and surge makes enemies take more damage.

but even so, limbo at most got his health down to about 3/4ths.

 

try 4, as loki,

killed the level 100 bombard eximus in 7 hits.

 

try 5, as ivara,

killed the level 100 bombard eximus in 7 hits.

 

try 6, limbo with shade,

shade's invis turned off the moment i attacked,

but i got in about 40 hits before dying.

[KaeseSchnitte]

...

Naramon...

Not to mention that you'll get a time freeze, so there will be exactly 0 threat of dying.

[CrudShuzKong]

I actually dont think banish needs an aoe at all, because thats what we got cataclysm for. 

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

I'm not familiar with jojo's.

dafuq is Za warudo?

i know it's dio's stand, but how exactly does that pertain to limbo?

[--Q--Kyl0Ren]

51 minutes ago, -Amaterasu- said:

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

BAHAHAHAHA !!!! XD 

[Nokah]

I've been kind of posting my opinion in the other related threads on the subject, but I wanted to make my own thread because I wanted to talk about this in detail and also put it out there as its own thing so DE can (hopefully) see and consider it.

With what we've been told and shown about the Limbo rework, I've taken some of the information into consideration, and I wanted to talk about what I think might work well for fixing some of the problems people have with Limbo and the Limbo rework in general.

So let's start off with the Banish tweak.

Banish is now an AoE! This is not a bad idea and it's one I quite like, but as many people have pointed out, it needs to be precise. This means two things:

1. There should be an option (a tap for single, hold for AoE, perhaps?) for solo-targeting, so you can properly banish allies and allied NPCs without throwing every enemy around them into the mix. If you're banishing them to protect them and let them heal up, why would you want to seal them off with whatever enemies nearby want to wail on them?
    
2. Banishing should be a one way affair. If you banish one enemy who was already in the Rift, 5 enemies around that enemy should not pop into the Rift. This may be already implemented, but if it's not, it really could use the tweak.

Some people would probably also like it if banishing allies did not banish enemies around them in general, and vice versa. I have an opinion on this - a very strong one, actually. Let me trail off first to talk about one of the major problems people have with Limbo: Limbo is the only one who controls when his allies enter the Rift Plane, unless a Cataclysm is placed. That means that allies have no easy way to interact with Rift Planed enemies if Limbo has decided he wants to Banish a group and never touch them to mess with his team. There are ways this could be dealt with by stepping out of the game - reporting them, waiting for the splitsecond window Limbo drops Banish, or using powers to try and kill the Rift Planed enemies. However, I have a simpler solution:

When an ally is within the range of a Banish, why not give them the ability to dash in and out of the Rift like Limbo can?

If you take to heart what others are suggesting and make the Rift Dash its own set of keys (my personal favorite is "double-tap Roll"), suddenly Limbo can reasonably pass on his powers to his entire group using Banish, and Banish then becomes a buff-based ability that grants all of his allies the ability to enter and exit the Rift - suddenly, Limbo can't troll his allies, because they control if they're Banished or not. Even better, Limbo's Banish doesn't have to banish these allies immediately - so if an ally uses Banish to enter the Rift, they most likely know how to also exit the Rift, as well.

This gives Limbo's teamplay a major buff, but doesn't actually change his playstyle - it just changes his capacity to troll other players. Plus, it paves the way for players to have better control over this kind of thing.

If it's too OP to let everyone do it, then perhaps Banish-based Void Dashing has a minor energy cost to discourage constant swapping. Or the buff timer on it is low, making it difficult to abuse unless the Limbo is kitted out properly. Things like that would go a long way toward making this rework not only fix Limbo's performance issues in terms of how he interacts with enemies, but it'd also let him better interact with his team.

Also, Cataclysm is a placed AoE rift into the Void - so it doesn't really make sense that enemies who die in the Rift formed by a Cataclysm have their loot suddenly become intangible. Why not make loot and interactables only able to be used in a Cataclysm rift? It, again, stops Limbo from messing with his allies by Cataclysming important things (examples: Cataclysming Spy consoles, mobile defense items, and other things that can't be carried into the Rift or moved out of it) and doesn't actually violate the rules of the Void, because Cataclysms are a fundamentally different concept (ripping a hole open in the dimension where both realities overlap) compared to Banish (pushing enemies/allies into another dimension). It'd be a little weird for old players, but it'd 100% make sense with the lore of the Void.

Finally, Stasis definitely needs to allow players to use melee without the damage being delayed. I don't know if this is already 100% a thing, but letting you melee enemies to death is super important to again avoid Limbos messing with their allies by grabbing enemies and timestopping them, making it so their allies can't shoot them without firing enough projectiles to break Stasis.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

For me the Limbo rework fixes most things that make it so he's not fun for me despite liking the overall design.

Rift Walk is just a pain to use. You either feel committed to be in 1 plane or the other, that for me just feels wrong, being able to S#&$ swap (I don't know what it just censored but, what? I'm pretty sure I wrote swap or switch) between the 2 and make others as well is the whole charm of the kit, but the overall clumsiness of the kit pretty much prevents almost everything but singling out single enemies, which while useful also becomes a problem when need more than that, a Limbo that only singles out 1 enemy every so often isn't that much useful than other frames, even Oberon can single out enemies like Ancients with his 1 and turn them against their allies. Cataclysm also was a clumsy mass enemy rift sender, because it doesn't keep them there, they can get out by just walking away from it so it's not really that reliable in the long run, and the sweet spot just doesn't exist.

 

Banish being AoE fixes Limbo's slowness which greatly improves is capabilities of isolating enemies (not a single enemy), but yeah, you do lose that fine tune option to just isolate that one annoying Bombard or Ancient, but nothing worth overrating as I see happening, tap/hold exists. For me it would even be better if it worked like Ivara/Vauban, single target option, AoE option, Gate option. What's the gate? It's a portal for team mates to get in and out without having to rely on you always clicking on them, which honestly would immensely improve Limbo's life and the whole use of Rift being exclusive to him or of it ruining is battlefield management by having to chase team mates or team mates being annoying because they either got in without wanting or got out without wanting to do so. Need to send 1 enemy? Can do. Need to send 1 team mate? Can do. Need to send multiple enemies? Can do. Need to send the whole party? Can do. Need some help dealing with isolated enemies while keeping them isolated but it's too damn hard to find a team mate to help you? Place a gate and team mates are free to help you. The only trade is that it takes time to get used to switching between the 3, but the benefits would be a lot bigger than that one downside.
Also, it would be nice if the control was the opposite of others, tap to use, hold to rotate (or perhaps the option for this abilities to be per ability), because you need to send enemies fast, there's no time to hold the button. If no gate option, then tap for 1 target, hold for AoE, done.

 

New Rift Surge... I don't mind it, sure the damage helped before but eh, I find the new one more interesting (it also helps the party as a whole more). I wouldn't worry about mini cataclysms, they seem unlikely to happen and even if they do happen the AI isn't programmed to use them so you won't really have that much enemies inside them to shoot at you (remember, Cataclysm doesn't banish them if they leave the area), rather it creates pockets for your team mates to hide and even help you.

Stasis looks cool and very useful for Limbo. Only thing I have to say is that it needs to communicate well with the player and present well it's limits clearly so you know what you are doing, else, eh, it's one of those things that it's bound to always have something or someone to dislike and nitpick even if it's great.


The dash I love the idea. Being able to quickly get in and out without clunky animations and hand stretching while being always on the move  just sounds amazing and only improves Limbo's capabilities of isolating and killing enemies. Sure you can't do your silly airborne rolls to go faster but I can live with that, after all these changes are to make him more viable in combat instead of being that one frame that you see once in a while, ignoring 99% of the game's content and being rather useless for the party except when banishing the defence target. Even if the dash has a small energy cost, I can live with that, after all the Rift has energy regen anyway, but only as long as energy leech eximus can't affect you if they are in a different dimension.

Edited February 18, 2017 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl
Because apparently I miswrote swap or switch and it censored whatever I wrote? I don't quite know what happened there.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

56 minutes ago, Midrib said:

it just seems rather inconsistent when they decide to listen and when they don't.

And that makes me wonder exactly why when they want feedback, what kind of feedback are they looking for? And the deciding decision that, "thats good enough" moving on...And on numerous occasions DE has taken the "it DEs game not ours stand point" so why ask for feedback if they are gonna do what they want with "thier" game anyway. That said, IMO they should just close the feedback part of the forums. And just have a thread for bugs and updates. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, MadHatHacker said:

Tux or go home

Za "Wierdo" ain't got nothin' on a well-dressed Houdini Archetype.

[RenegadeTengu42]

I love the idea of the Limbo rework so far too, gives em a more defined role than Rescue/Sortie Def MVP. I'm looking forward to the CC option such as the banish AOE, the ZA WARDO "Stasis" skill and redoing Rift Surge so that it can provide some damage/shock procs between both planes (rather than the old damage buff). These abilities can give Limbo a whole different way to approach sit

Now I'm wondering about 2 things regarding the rework, feel free to use this a discussion point 

The first co-op aspects for Limbo 2nd skill. I wonder how would multiple Limbos would be using Stasis in the same area compound. If heard correctly, Stasis was a placeholder name for now. I'm guessing people will be filling up a suggestion box for naming stuff ("Rift Prison","Rift/Time Dilation","Rift Bind")  but I digress. I'm going to guess that Limbos may only freeze their own projectiles when they activate the ability, but I'm a bit worried about the low end machines if Limbos in tandem were allowed to pause hundreds/thousands in say the same room. Would it make sense to have a Level Wide limit to the number of frozen projectiles in the Rift or is there another way to work around the processing power. Would it work similar to Mag's Magnetize bubble and how the projectiles are flung around in that confined space?

The second would be the Existing Augments. Based on the potential ability reworks, should these mods remain unchanged after the rework? What I means is that in terms of functionality, should these mods stay the way they are?  

 - Banish - would provide heals to allies when they are moved from Material to Rift planes. 

- Rift Surge - A additive, % based power buff to the ability based on the number of enemies in the Rift

- Cataclysm -  Duration increase when kills are made on enemies in the bubble (excludes those outside the catabomb's sphere)

I wouldn't see a problem keeping the banish and cata augs the same, since it those 2 skills have realatively remained the same after the rework. I think Rift Surge may become a bit too OP based on how it can affect a lot of enemies in a wide range and in both planes. It would be like Volt's Daisy Chaining the electronics all over again with a Discharge...Don't get me wrong, damage is plenty of fun in the new surge. It would be cool if the augment can add additonal effect based on the OnKill/OnRiftShift events. Procs would be a cool example, or something that adds some cool strategy with it. 

[(PSN)TertulSee]

43 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Let me get straight to the point.

1) Banish losing its precision:

It's better to be able to interact with many enemies at once but there is also the very real fact that it might not let you use it precisely. You might not want to take everything in an AoE sometimes.

If crosshair is not aimed at an enemy let it function in an aoe. If it is aimed at an enemy let only that enemy be banished.

 

2)Limbo losing mobility with rolling gone:

New void dash looks awesome but rewatching footage I also realised you wouldn't be able to do some nice parkour moves such as rolling after a bulletjump that lets you cover a nice bit of distance, or roll through damage or AoEs such as a caustic eximus' fire wave.

Double tapping roll button will let you roll as normal.

 

3)Overloading the rift:

Without further information I can't make statements, but I hope there is a UI indicator that gives you warning. Let enemy projectiles not count in the limit. 

Ideally I would want there to be no projectile limit but there is a very real technical barrier. 

Here are my technical solutions. 

1) Make Banish single target when it's tapped but AoE when it's held. It can be casted on the floor when the ability is held. 

This is much more simple than the quoted solution and grants Limbo even more flexibility.

2) Rolling will function as normal but going into the Rift requires 2 taps in quick succession.

Limbo is a frame based on timed and quick strategy. Making the the roll a double tap would be awful and still limit his mobility and maybe make his mobility even worst.

3) The solution would be to make projectiles the same entity as their source.  

This would give the Rift a lot more space. Projectiles have a limited range usually so it would work out.

[2Peter3Nine]

22 minutes ago, KaeseSchnitte said:

...

Naramon...

Not to mention that you'll get a time freeze, so there will be exactly 0 threat of dying.

So what you're saying is that limbo needs to be stealthy with the help of the neramon tenno ability in order to be useful?

[hukurokuju5]

did limbo lose his damage amp on surge?

aoe banish looks to be quite a problem, but we'll see how the targeting works and how it scales with range

I do think the CC on rift should be coded to be on enemy entry and exit instead of skill cast.

Edited February 18, 2017 by hukurokuju5