Did Valkyr Prime's trailer just confirm the sentience of warframes?

[45neo]

16 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's what I'm gonna go with.  DE has stated that some of the concepts of Warframe were inspired by the Guyver (manga and anime).  Looking at the video for Valkyr Prime, there is a lot of similarities between the Valkyr P frame and how the Guyver Unit itself reacts when the operator is (let's say) unconscious.  Then there is that both Warframes and Guyver units have biological material/components.  Now for the animalistic part. 

It's the bolded part that also can describe what happened in the Valkyr Prime video.   In the case of the Guyver (and by some degree Warframes) one could consider it to be programed to appear semi-sentient/sapient to help facilitate survival in certain circumstances. 

I could be completely wrong.  But going by some statements DE made in Devstreams, the Valkyr video itself, and some of the Lore, it seems to be a fairly safe assumption for me to make.  :D

Personally I woould go so far as to say that warframes are not programmed to have emotions, rather we in some way form a pet-like relationship with the warframe. Thus when we are unconscious that act on instinct but since they are loyal to us they attack our enemies.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

We are missing something in these Trailers- these are images from the PAST. 

The Corpus have no helms, Valk is in Prime form, and back then the war was going on with the Sents- which would have many parts on the black market. This is a prelude to how Valk was captured and tormented (if that is still in her lore). They tried it with one machine and she overpowered it. Next time, maybe they used 3 or more until they were able to capture her. 

As for them being sentient beings, we know this from, as many have posted, much of what is in game. The Rhino Prime entry, the different animations each comes with, and many other signs. Now we know that Warframes are made from Human seeds....which begs the question if the Orokin are not Human, then who are? All the races in the game are descended from the Orokin, IIRC. 

Lore videos show us info from the past....

[aligatorno]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

We are missing something in these Trailers- these are images from the PAST. 

 

Lore videos show us info from the past....

It was never implied that they are from the present. 

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

The Corpus have no helms, Valk is in Prime form, and back then the war was going on with the Sents- which would have many parts on the black market. This is a prelude to how Valk was captured and tormented (if that is still in her lore).

That could be true if you don't consider that it was the non-primed pre-experimented on version (possibly Gersemi) of Valkyr that was captured by the Corpus.  Also I'm not sure that the prime videos are actually from the past as they could just be of current Tenno right after they uncovered the Prime.  Not saying that you're wrong but more of a offering a different viewpoint.  :D

[(XBOX)Solargeo]

the bond things and the cable things, could they just be , as in . Prime be part of her RIPLINE ability ? could she feel the removal did it hurt?

Edited March 12, 2017 by (XB1)Solargeo

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

4 hours ago, Wolfsfang202 said:

thats completely ignoring my point.

How did they get the sentient arm to begin with.

A level 500 John Prodman karate chopped it off.

A lvl 20 Tech one-shot it.

The hundreds of Corpus wandering around Lua managed to take one down.

A Tenno ran through and they picked up the scraps.

They sided with Hunhow.

The Sentient lost it in a poker game.

etc.

 

[SilentMobius]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's what I'm gonna go with.  DE has stated that some of the concepts of Warframe were inspired by the Guyver (manga and anime).  Looking at the video for Valkyr Prime, there is a lot of similarities between the Valkyr P frame and how the Guyver Unit itself reacts when the operator is (let's say) unconscious.  Then there is that both Warframes and Guyver units have biological material/components.  Now for the animalistic part. 

It's the bolded part that also can describe what happened in the Valkyr Prime video.   In the case of the Guyver (and by some degree Warframes) one could consider it to be programed to appear semi-sentient/sapient to help facilitate survival in certain circumstances. 

I could be completely wrong.  But going by some statements DE made in Devstreams, the Valkyr video itself, and some of the Lore, it seems to be a fairly safe assumption for me to make.  :D

Well if it's incapable of suffering then it's not sentient and if it's not thinking and self-aware then it's not sapient, I'd hesitate to even use "semi" as a qualifier as it wouldn't be demonstrating any of the signifiers of either state.

Really I'd just call that "alive" just like a mollusc or insect, capable of responding to stimulus, that humans can then anthropomorphize as a personality. An ant hooked up to an expert system.

I'm fine with alive, that would be a perfectly reasonable state, and it would fit the non-sapient non-sentient apparent state of the infestation when not "en mass" enough to develop the thoughts that we see from the bosses.

Hell, I'm fine with all sorts of exotic states, embedded memories harvested from Dax, persona fragments welded together to make a theme, emergent personality from constant transference, that's all fine and could well be interesting.

As long as we stay clear of sentient and/or sapient because then the game gets into-player driven dogfighting and/or super rapey

Edited March 12, 2017 by SilentMobius

[(PSN)HaterReplicator]

The plot thickens ever more. I agree with some about Helminth. Helminth is REALLY old and wise as implied by how speaks to the Warframe and Operator; it does not appear to be violent. Right now the only two characters we could get answers from the past are Helminth and Ordis (if he ever recovers his memory).

[Blakrana]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

persona fragments welded together to make a theme, emergent personality from constant transference

Sake of curiosity, what do you mean by the persona fragments?

And am I right in suspecting that the emergent personality is some sort of transference byproduct, per its 'dreamlike' nature?

 

[SilentMobius]

On 12/03/2017 at 10:52 PM, Blakrana said:

Sake of curiosity, what do you mean by the persona fragments?

And am I right in suspecting that the emergent personality is some sort of transference byproduct, per its 'dreamlike' nature?

Imagine if memories and identity were woven into an artificial "persona" so that whenever an (old war) sleeping Tenno was transferred into a specific Warframe they had a library of behavior and skills to eventually gain "affinity" with. All just sat there as the data surrounding and enabling a mind but not an actual mind. Something to ensure that the dreaming Tenno adopted a matching identity to their new body.

It's just one of the wide variety of possible mechanism's Warframes could have to explain what we know.

I mean "An animal" explains the persona behind the Valkyr line of Warframes but it hardly makes sense for something as complex a persona as the Limbo line or the Mirage line or even the Mesa line.

Edited March 14, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Blakrana]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

Imagine if memories and identity were woven into an artificial "persona" so that whenever an (old war) sleeping Tenno was transferred into a specific Warframe they had a library of behavior and skills to eventually gain "affinity" with. All just sat there as the data surrounding and enabling a mind but not an actual mind. Something to ensure that the dreaming Tenno adopted a matching identity to their new body.

So in a sense, an assortment of specific traits and elements to help predispose users of a given Warframe to particular forms of conduct? Fair, and does at least tie into the somewhat 'dream/Jungian' aspects going on, however slight. Without a conscious mind it'd be inert but with one, it serves as a subtle influence? Could explain Silvanna recounting 'another' presence per her 'like ink' line, possibly.

Either way, guess we'll just have to wait and see what's going on. Does make sense to suspect there's something to mitigate any sense of body dysphoria, at least.

Thanks for clarifying, any rate.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I believe Warframes are sentient, due to the organic nature of the Technocyte used in making their bodies, however their intelligence is limited, and they are primitive, acting only upon instinct. somehow our operator soothes them, and follows their commands. there's a quote sometimes said when you are revived "on your feet, Warframe!"

this line is balked, as a stern command, like what you would say to a dog when training it. I believe our frames are in a symbiotic relationship with the operators, with the frame acting as the outer presence and vessel for the operator's power, and the operator themselves being aware that their frames can hear them, feel them.. the frames aren't merely constructs as most think, they are sentient creatures who choose to obey the Operators will. Helminth is much the same, openly calling us "master" at times. the two are likely linked, but I wonder if the frame's internal programming is what makes them follow our commands, or if they choose to do so themselves, which begs another question:

if the Warframes are sentient beings, do they have the capacity of Free Will, or are they truly assimilated only to our cause?

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

I believe Warframes are sentient, due to the organic nature of the Technocyte used in making their bodies, however their intelligence is limited, and they are primitive, acting only upon instinct. somehow our operator soothes them, and follows their commands. there's a quote sometimes said when you are revived "on your feet, Warframe!"

this line is balked, as a stern command, like what you would say to a dog when training it. I believe our frames are in a symbiotic relationship with the operators, with the frame acting as the outer presence and vessel for the operator's power, and the operator themselves being aware that their frames can hear them, feel them.. the frames aren't merely constructs as most think, they are sentient creatures who choose to obey the Operators will. Helminth is much the same, openly calling us "master" at times. the two are likely linked, but I wonder if the frame's internal programming is what makes them follow our commands, or if they choose to do so themselves, which begs another question:

if the Warframes are sentient beings, do they have the capacity of Free Will, or are they truly assimilated only to our cause?

This is where the Acolytes come into play. Are they Controlled Warframes such as ours with their own or are they awakened Warframes that are free from Operator control? The fact that they are not coming after us while we go after them shows they have no qualms with us.....for now. They may follow Stalker for he has freed them from being stuck in the pod and given them the freedom to choose what they are instead of just a run-of-the-mill, off the line, production. 

If they are the final form for a Warframe, that gives me hope for being Operator free. 

[--RV--Meta]

All the answers you seek will be revealed, on Earth, in Dr. Tengus' secret laboratory...

[EmptyDevil]

8 hours ago, Blakrana said:

Regarding the object, it appears to be a Sentient 'core' in the container they jam in. Whilst the question 'How'd they get that?!' remains, it's certainly more portable than an arm.

Either they've got some elite, Corpus black ops unit able to hijack these cores on Lua...or it's not just the Grineer involved in some tomb raiding. If the Corpus found say, an Orokin repository of slain Sentient fighters, perhaps an old research facility (Know your enemy etc)...this could explain where they get their Nullifier tech from. Could.

How so? The Valkyr was still capable of using Hysteria to destroy the machine and rightfully murder the Corpus. My thoughts were that the Corpus had zero clue on what that Sentient fragment would do if they powered it, but used it anyway since they were in a dire situation, figuring that if the Sentients could hack/disable tech, then it should do something to the tech installed on a Warframe.

7 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

I was oversimplifying it, yeah. I don't think a metaphysical essence, a "soul" whatever, is transferred into the frame. Rather, I think sensory data is wirelessly transmitted between somatic links, which hijack the host's synapses. After prolonged use, this results in partially transcribing a person's identity onto the host's brain. I'm still working on a theory as to how this is done with plants... but if my understanding is correct, then it explains Stalker's reticence in TSD. Assuming the frame he cobbled together wasn't 'dead', some aspect of its prior identity may linger under Stalker's imprint. Being confronted with a Tenno may have triggered old memories, raising questions the homunculus had forgotten over the centuries. One hell of an identity crisis.

This is essentially what i believe happens. I feel that individuals in an emotionally unstable state are likely to create and leave behind a shadow of themselves, primarily a raw emotion-driven fragment, when using Transference. The thing is possibly created by the infested matter of the Warframe trying to assume+integrated the mind within itself, as is one quality of the infested hive, eventually becoming the 'self' of the entity - the will that begins to drive it. When Silvana tested Transference on Titania in her state of turmoil about the project being used as a weapon, i feel that the part of herself that was passionate about saving the forest, no matter what it would cost her was taken in by the Warframe. This is probably what ended up saving her, after she had trapped herself within the forest with Transference. The piece of Silvana that lived on in Titania, her shadow, was driven to protect the forest and see earth restored to its former glory. So it acted on the emotion driving it to destroy the Dax, not out of sympathy for Silvana, but to see that the forest remains protected.

I also feel that this applies to Stalker and the Acolytes. Stalker's Acolytes could possibly all be Warframes that belong to a single Operator. Each Acolyte's name/persona representing an emotion that plagued the Operator. I imagine that this individual never learned to cope with what the children did on the Zariman, so working for the Orokin and forgetting those events was a blessing to them. When they saw what happened to the Orokin they were devastated and fractured. When they learned/remembered the truth at the reservoir, they became even more fractured. The Operator of Stalker probably lost themselves under the weight of it all, leaving remnants in their once empty husks.

Part of this Misery quote influenced this theory quite a bit:

"Those who oppose will be consumed. Emotion drives us. Blood divides us."

The part about consuming is interesting. It is also something the Specters on the rail junctions will say. 

 

[Evanescent]

"...trapped and tortured, yet they remain......animals."

I feel this can be read in a couple of different ways. One way is an exclamation (animals) on the warframe's reticence after considering that despite the entrapment and the torture something refuses to be removed or to die.

"...Tenno-tamed, but only just.";

Possible that Warframes roamed free? They seem to have been "hunted". If so, It has always struck me as odd how you find the warframe you wake up in ornately sealed in a golden sarcophagus behind void portals. I have always assumed it was to keep something out, but this leads me to wonder if it was instead to keep something in. 

Silviana's state shows warframe's existing without operators and remaining fully operational. Likely, as @EmptyDevil thoerises (awesomely might I add) above, they aare driven by vestiges of emotions. Or, they are inhabited by constructs resembling a mind, enabling Tenno to have instant grasp on the expertise and skills needed to make full use out of them. That would explain how you have very intelligent personas like Limbo in his quest or expressive ones like Mirage.  

It would be interesting if after the Orokin collapse Tenno were sent to sleep and for a time rogue warframes roamed the system, laying waste and being destroyed over millenia. Maybe that is how the tales of Mirage, Limbo, Chroma came to be, how Valkyr came to be captured, and how some grew warped. They had been, to paraphrase stalker, 'walking these desolate lands as you slept.'

Edited March 13, 2017 by Evanescent

[Photovoltaeic]

I believe Warframes have sentience. They are capable of feeling, they act of their own volition. The Rhino Prime codex is an exemplary example of this- The Rhino rampages around the room and kills the guards. It then shovels gore into its mouth, and then sees the scientists. It recognizes the scientists, and then attacks to exact revenge. Then when it enters the room where they keep the survivors of the Zariman, it stops and cant stop examining its hands. This clearly shows a prioritization from defense, self-repair (another theory I will list at bottom), and revenge.

And then things just get deeper from here.

so @SilentMobius, I think there isn't so much mind control as mind suggestion. I do not mean to say you are wrong- There is very much a "eugenic (or rather eugenetic-mechanical) dogfighting"- but it isn't (In my opinion) the blatant suppression and projection of ones will and identity upon a "surrogate body". And I state my opinion with this analogy.

If you've ever tried to program, you've noticed that we usually use higher level languages that the computer breaks down into a simpler language the the computer can use. We input ideas, and the computer implements them in an understandable form. Why? The computer 'understands' far better how to program in its natural language than we will.

Similarly, after somatic linking, the warframe and the human mesh in identity (I will compare it to Drifting from Pacific rim). One member to direct and guide (higher drive functions such as navigational) and another member to fight (lower drive functions such as survival, and fighting).

 I believe this is where @BlitzKeirs theory of syneptic/somatic plasticity comes in. The warframes gain personality (or a quasi-sapience) after they receive imprints from the operators. So its not "mind-rape" as much as it is mind-shape.

It could also just be that the operator does inhabit the mind, and that they exhibit the same mental power as a kubrow- We subconsciously (or maybe consciously) give the warframe orders the same way we would give our dog an order. The warframe complies because it, for some reason, implicitly trusts us. I mean.. smarter than the average kubrow, but... as compliant as one. 

10 hours ago, Evanescent said:

If so, It has always struck me as odd how you find the warframe you wake up in ornately sealed in a golden sarcophagus behind void portals. I have always assumed it was to keep something out, but this leads me to wonder if it was instead to keep something in. 

also, @Evanescent points out what I believe supports the "rampaging rhino/tranquil warframe" theory. The cryosleep was to protect the world from rampaging un-guided warframes as much as it was to protect the warframes from the dangers the world would bring.

And that about wraps up my theories.... ish. I am probably wrong, but I love speculating like this.

self repair theory- I believe that the "health orbs" are a gameplay mechanic that translates lorewise to the rhino shoveling gore into its "maw".

The infection has biomass right? So reason stands that when you bleed, you need some way to manufacture more blood, or you'll progressively weaken. much like real life.

So essentially the rhino absorbs biomass to convert into health points...

just me rambling to make sense of lore.

 

Good conversation guys!

[Crashen]

I think the key thing is the technocyte and infestation. I believe it is something highly programmable, and when it doesnt have a program to follow, it developes one on it's own. The technocyte in a warframe is imprinted with a 'personality' that suits its theme and abilities, while giving it some guidelines, and making it easier for the operator to jump into and assume the form of.

When that personality is absent or disrupted, the technocyte begins to form it's own attempt at consciousness, creating a ravening hive mind of increasing sophistication. When that happens to warframes, you get Stalker and his Acolytes. Fragmented beings that know only the suffering of broken things never meant to feel.

So in a sense, the personality given to a warframe is what keeps it from creating it's own. It makes a warframe alive, but stops it from living.

[Blakrana]

13 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

How so? The Valkyr was still capable of using Hysteria to destroy the machine and rightfully murder the Corpus. My thoughts were that the Corpus had zero clue on what that Sentient fragment would do if they powered it, but used it anyway since they were in a dire situation, figuring that if the Sentients could hack/disable tech, then it should do something to the tech installed on a Warframe.

Mostly wheel spinning, really. It's not clear just what the function is meant to be, till we see more of this device in some form.

Could be some kind of 'Commanding Voice' sort of thing, whereby amplifying the Sentient core employs their tech negation traits as you said.

13 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

This is essentially what i believe happens. I feel that individuals in an emotionally unstable state are likely to create and leave behind a shadow of themselves, primarily a raw emotion-driven fragment, when using Transference.

A kind of psychological imprint, essentially? Much how we leave a mark on paper when we spill ink on it, a user may impact a Warframe's neural uptake in some way?

In that case...would it be reasonable to say that's where the personality at large for each class of Warframe comes from? All it takes is the initial blank being employed in tests, then the final proven version taken to production...now with that 'imprint' in play. In theory.

[Sloan441]

43 minutes ago, Blakrana said:

A kind of psychological imprint, essentially? Much how we leave a mark on paper when we spill ink on it, a user may impact a Warframe's neural uptake in some way?

In that case...would it be reasonable to say that's where the personality at large for each class of Warframe comes from? All it takes is the initial blank being employed in tests, then the final proven version taken to production...now with that 'imprint' in play. In theory.

If you look at this from a more Skinnerian viewpoint, all the warframes' behavior could be explained from genetic predisposition. How it's displayed would be learned behavior (playstyle, derived from the Tenno), but the basic behavior is hardwired. This would mesh with the warfame base state being selected for traits determined by DNA and then cloned for mass production. The main question would be how much this changes with the introduction of the technocyte virus and whatever cybernetics the Orokin add.

Where it gets really interesting is since the Tenno actually overlay their consciousness over the warframe's base state, how much influence goes the other way? The creature has to have some functions at least on a limbic (emotional) level. Since the Tenno is the warframe when under transference, this has to have some effect on the Tenno. What higher level functions it might have such as consciousness or self-awareness isn't clear and might have been suppressed by the later modifications. At a guess, this would undesirable from a design standpoint and would either be removed or suppressed.

[Blakrana]

1 minute ago, Sloan441 said:

If you look at this from a more Skinnerian viewpoint, all the warframes' behavior could be explained from genetic predisposition. How it's displayed would be learned behavior (playstyle, derived from the Tenno), but the basic behavior is hardwired. This would mesh with the warfame base state being selected for traits determined by DNA and then cloned for mass production. The main question would be how much this changes with the introduction of the technocyte virus and whatever cybernetics the Orokin add.

Where it gets really interesting is since the Tenno actually overlay their consciousness over the warframe's base state, how much influence goes the other way? The creature has to have some functions at least on a limbic (emotional) level. Since the Tenno is the warframe when under transference, this has to have some effect on the Tenno. What higher level functions it might have such as consciousness or self-awareness isn't clear and might have been suppressed by the later modifications. At a guess, this would undesirable from a design standpoint and would either be removed or suppressed.

Hmm. Can't say for sure either way, but if there's some basic, neurological component with some predisposed traits in play, it does seem reasonable that it'd influence the mind in some capacity. The mind is a plaything of the body, after all.

Much as I'm likely tiring the example, best way I have to understand it is Morphs in Eclipse Phase; depending on the Morph, it can have some effects on the Ego using it. The Morph is however lacking in actual cognitive identity without that animating Ego. So returning to the case...in theory then a Warframe could have some inbuilt biases to influence a user towards certain conducts and approaches, as fitting for that system?

Apologies if not making much sense.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:55 AM, Zanoza-chan said:

We had enough clues for both their sentience and infested nature.
1) specters maybe are just uncontrolled warframes
2) Second Dream spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

warframe releases from Hunhow's blade itself... and we can see the bloody parts under the metal armor inside the wound

3) War Within spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

"control the Golden Maw like a warframe" - sounds like warframes can have their own will, becuz the Golden Maw definetly has it

4) Helminth saying interesting things... and after that many of infested boss' replicas become more clear

5) another spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

Chroma saying "all hush and empty in a womb of the sky" - sounds like his Operator died for some reason, and Chroma left uncontrolled

6) Silver Grove spoiler alert

  Reveal hidden contents

Silvana was the greatest Infestation specialist... and she was brought to work on Titania

and more, and more

With the reveal of Helminth I suspect the infestation is not necessarily a single hive mind.  It may be a series of lesser and greater manifestations, some of which are part of a single Mother hive mind.  For instance, Phorid, is definitely a more intelligent manifestation that occurs when the infestation spreads enough.  Lephantis is another greater manifestation due to it's age.  We also see in Jordas that greater manifestation can occur spontaneously when infesting the right system, in this case a Cephalon.  I think for the most part these are part of what we know as The Infestation, and are all working towards the same goal.  That could be seen through Salad V being infested and where it drove his mind.

Helminth on the other hand seems to be a separate infestation.  A manifestation separate from The Infestation, and working for us out of either fear or some odd loyalty. 

The warframes are clearly more than infestation as they can become infested themselves (see infested Mesa).  Now they may be a variation of the infestation that manifests as there particular selves.  All Mesa are the Mesa strain of infestation that only manifests when combined with other Orokin technologies that allow the Tenno to piggyback on them, but can become self sufficient if left untended by their Tenno.  I think this altered manifestation of the infestation has different primal drives than the infestation itself (which is to spread and absorb all living things).  That is why you see them acting oddly, and almost reflexively when not operated by Tenno.  They tend to guard or protect things, which is what the Orokin designed them for, and they just kept doing what they were doing after the Tenno went to sleep.  They've obviously have formed attachment to their Tenno, but is it a decision they made or are they like well trained and much loved dogs?

[Shenaniger]

I personally subscribe to a specific theory, but before I say it, I'll list out a few parts of the universe's history.

1) The infestation heavily resembles the Technocyte virus from Dark Sector - it's not identical, but the similarities and behaviors are there. If anything, the Technocyte virus looks like a primitive, unrefined version of the infestation

2) We know that the Orokin empire unleashed the infestation in an attempt to combat the rogue sentients, and that turned out to be a double-edged sword. This means that the infestation was in the empire's utility belt until then and they had it under control before it was released. This much is known, but I have a hunch about the following (though I don't have evidence): because the infestation looks different from the Technocyte, the Orokin empire may have been trying to perfect the Technocyte virus after getting their hands on it. Perfect it to what end is unclear, but I think it wasn't quite done when they released it.

3) The Orokin empire was never opposed to human experimentation, and didn't adhere to any strict human rights laws 

Spoiler

As was clearly conveyed in Ordis' origin story

4) Warframes are partiallty infested

5) Both infestation and technocyte virus function by assimilating complex machinery and living matter. 

That being said, there's no clear indication through which process warframes are made. It's said that they're infestation, but infestation doesn't just form living things by itself - it needs a host. I believe that warframes were originally living people, most likely warriors or intellectual minds that needed to be silenced. The variety of warframes might be the result of differences of those warriors/people, or it could be due to different generations of modifications done to the infestation virus, or the combination thereof. If that's the case, chances are that there's some sort of primitive, mad conscience sitting back there, that's been silenced through technology. In the Dark Sector, everyone who got infected by the technocyte virus lost their minds due to the pain involved, and hayden tenno retained his sanity due to his congenital analgesia - resulting in a sane soldier wielding the powers that the virus provides. Perhaps "Tenno" in warframe is simply a symbolic title to represent the sane part of a warframe - something that couldn't occur naturally.

Spoiler

Also begs the question of what happened to Ordis. We know his mind was changed into a cephalon consciousness, but what happened to his body?

 

[SilentMobius]

6 hours ago, kbowser said:

I believe Warframes have sentience. They are capable of feeling, they act of their own volition. The Rhino Prime codex is an exemplary example of this- The Rhino rampages around the room and kills the guards.

I've said this many times in other threads, whatever the beast of the Rhino Prime Codex is, it is not a Warframe. It was made before even the notion of Warframes existed because that began with Davis and the other discovering that  transference can be weaponized.

Sure, part of whatever made that beast most likely ended up as a part of the Rhino Warframe, maybe even all Warframes but to make explicit suggestions of "Because the beast X then warframes X" is just as much a mistake as saying that because a cow can eat grass and produce milk that obviously a leather jacket can do the same.

Edited March 13, 2017 by SilentMobius

[Viquey]

This idea is definitely one of the most exciting to me--I'm a character person, I guess, so reveals about what (or who) our Warframes really are tend to be more exciting to me than plot developments. >.>

I've personally subscribed to the theory that they're animalistic beasts on their own with a symbiotic relationship with the Tenno. And while the allusions to dog-fighting are... an interesting direction to take that, I think it might be a bit of a black and white/melodramatic take. There are plenty of shades of gray between happy house pet and dog fighting--police dogs, war horses, etc. I don't think we're morally corrupt for raising and training Kubrows and Kavats, and likewise, unless we're literally stamping out an existing consciousness with transference, I don't think our frames are much different. In both cases we're not making them fight for entertainment, we're training to fight for--at least what we hope is--a just cause in a system-wide war. And I don't know about the rest of you, but this Tenno would definitely take good care of (and spoil) all of the above (+ Sentinels) between missions. :V

So that leaves the question of the nature of the transference itself. As I said, I definitely see it as symbiotic--like a fusion or merging of personalities and abilities. Tenno sapience and intelligence and discipline taming and guiding the Warframe's instinct, while the frame's innate abilities and personality shape how they fight. I don't know if current lore supports the notion that we're "just" giving them orders, so there's definitely got to be an element there of the lines where Tenno ends and Warframe begins being blurred. Almost like they're two separate beings who merge into a third, distinct being. If there was nothing of the frames left after the Tenno took over, they wouldn't have different innate/default stances or probably even powersets. So it has to be a collaboration or symbiosis of some kind rather than full on "mind-rape".

But, I dunno. We're missing a lot of pieces and the ones we have are vague. For now... well, I'll put my chips in on @kbowser's theories. Drifting--that's a good analogy. This speculation is always fun though.

Closing thought--"Tenno tamed, but only just," huh? Clearly, they are fearsome beasts, near-impossible to contain, answer only to the Tenno. Just like these beasts. Be afraid.