Regarding disruption of "co-op" gameplay

[Airyllish]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

Dear god, can you we clone you?

Alas, I don't think that's presently possible, but with what time I have I do try to find these sort of discussions to throw in my two cents, for what little they're worth.

I'd be all present and happy to partake in sane discussion and brainstorming for potential ways DE could try and help improve their matchmaking in a beneficial way for everybody. There's huge precedent for the suggestion to be considered because it would also potentially help them single out where weapons and warframes start to struggle when they do their balance checks, while at the very same time helping the community sort and segment itself out into these varying playstyles given the fact it seems so few are able to mix, mesh and tolerate the other at any given point. So if the discussion ever comes up, and more importantly, if we can avoid the rabid folk on both sides of the argument from jumping down the throats of literally everybody else to make their snarky and snide remarks at the expense of the discussion itself, you can count on me to be there. o7

[jfhsanseiIII]

On 3/26/2017 at 6:27 AM, (PS4)dursereg said:

All I read was soneone whining that someone else killed more enemies then they did and now wants a nerf. 

Seems kind of anticlimactic for someone to even bother writing this.  It's a reasonable discussion to have and one that more than a few people bring up.  'Why have abilities that negate any need for interaction?' That sounds like something we,as a community, should be having.  Instead we've got you "commander toxic" adding absolutely nothing.  Your comment is puerile at best. 

As to the OP, I agree that abilities that reduce player interaction with enemies to a single button push need to be taken out and given something more active.  DE has been doing such a good job with the last few frames that I assume it's only a matter of time until ember gets a real rework. 

Also, I'd like more enemy types as well.  Not necessarily a big AI upgrade but slightly tougher enemies that pop out that make players work for the kill. Just giving more HP, armor, or whatever doesn't fix part of the problem. I always use the example of a heavy unit that has guns, but launches a telegraphed rocket burst as well.  Players would have a strong enemy that requires they stay in their toes. Level 2000 bombards that take a a clip and a half to kill just aren't fun or engaging.  

[MagPrime]

3 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I can see the thoughts behind the idea, I just don't think it would work well in practice.

You'd have to make it optional, I doubt all vets would be happy having their power nerfed when they just want to get that nitain alert over with quickly, which would split the matchmaking pool. How many players do you think would really select the "Yes please, nerf my power for this mission" option? Which would leave new players mostly matching with each other, and with longer queue times.

Alerts aside, how often do vets actually go back and play lower level missions just for fun? It's usually to farm something specific (relics, etc.) and I doubt many would want to deliberately hurt their efficiency while doing that.

I believe it would be a lot of development effort for virtually no positive impact on the game at all.

I don't know that it wouldn't have any positive impact.  There are other MMO's that allow high rank players effectively drop their level to match someone elses, to avoid the situation we have here in Warframe, and the people I usually ran with used this feature often.  It was a great way for new players to play with older players and not have the game "ruined" by being whipped through content and never getting a decent handle on the game. 

For Warframe, I can see this kind of thing being beneficial for the same reasons.  I mentioned my uncle earlier, he just started playing yesterday and I worry that my brother and I are pushing him too far through the quests and maps.  We're both MR 21/22, he's MR1, and we tend to zip through everything because it's old hat for us.  It's really hard forcing ourselves to slow down. XD

But with a system mentioned, we could still help him out, at his pace, and not force his progression.  

[DatDarkOne]

I just really don't know what to say in regards to this topic's subject.  On one hand I somewhat agree with OP, but then again I oppose it also.  I have seen a few good ideas come up that could work if done right.  The temp lowering of level/stats was one of them.  I've had personal experience with this mechanic in Guild Wars 2. 

I think it would work as long as it's not in effect in endless missions.  :D

 

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by DatDarkOne
added info

[Zeclem]

9 hours ago, Kid84 said:

tonkor was nerfed twice last year making it perfectly balanced. it was struggling to kill past level 70. please do your research before comenting

found the tonkor main.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

3 hours ago, Airyllish said:

You make an awful lot of assumptions about me, don't you?

For the record, I have never moaned about the fact there's nothing new in Warframe. I'm not a kid attending school. I also don't play PUG games on Warframe, so no, I don't rush around finishing missions ASAP. I play exclusively solo or with friends who don't mind the fact I take my time.

So golf clap your arse right out of this thread, sit down and think about your terrible strawman.

If you had literally said "Doesn't your argument apply to rush-job players too?" I would have agreed. That's entirely true. But it's also entirely true that the majority of Warframe players play for efficiency, and to accuse them of being rude or unfair is wilfully overlooking the fact that this game type lends itself to be played in faster "speed runs" of missions for the purpose of farming and grinding. The fact that you totally ignore this so that you can go out of your way to make passive-aggressive attacks on what you assume to be my character and playstyle speaks a lot about you as a person.

Again, you're precisely the type of casual player that makes the rest of us look bad because your attitude is awful and you act just as entitled as the very players you like to complain about. It's pretty nasty, honestly.

Golf clap Part 2? yeah......its better than a No-Prize....

My attitude in this thread comes from the idea and aspect that "there is a wrong way to play WARFRAME". If it is not trolling in game, anyway that helps the game stay fun and playable should be considered okay to do- whether solo, Co-op, Public, or PvE. It is when it detracts from the fun and more people leave than join the game that an issue can be seen. You have your way of running with your friends and clan members. Yet those out there that have no clan yet or friends in the game keep running into the majority of level nukers that make the new guys go back to Halo and Gears. At least there they can PLAY over in those games.

Just because a majority does something does not make it okay if they trample the minority thats action is to not speak up. They get that they do not matter as long as the majority get their way....hence the reason they leave to go to other games.

Good time chatting it up....oh, and I never assume. I am a presumer. And what the hek is a STRAWMAN? something you light to start a bonfire? I do not get all this mumbojumbo online talk you kids do these days....

 

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

4 hours ago, MagPrime said:

Personally, I think a lot of problems would be solved if people took the time to put together their own teams.

Of course, that would require DE to drastically improve the recruiting mechanic and give some kind of choices for the public matchmaking system.  I'd love to see speed/moderate/looter options so people could at least get into a public match that fits their playspeed, if nothing else. 

That would be an excellent addition to the matchmaking options. At the moment I use the available modes as a crude form of triage:

Solo - levelling stuff, exploring, trying builds out etc.

Invite Only - helping someone farm a resource for example

Friends - much the same as Invite

Public - for clearing a mission quickly or if extra firepower makes the job more easy.

To be able to specify a style of PUG would be great, but it does lead me to a question of how it would be controlled - I assume simply through self regulation; if, for example, you play looter option and consistently see a speed runner in your matches I suppose the option to block playing with them could be used. 

[Lawmonark]

On 3/25/2017 at 10:45 PM, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

I feel like the whole point of this thread was missed. It wasn't meant as a thread to cry about "muh kill count" it was meant to draw a comparison between weapon buffing and nerfing, warframe abilities and the fact that DE has started to analyse the way these things interact with each other.

You are comparing an AOE frame to a single target frame. 

Put Valkyr and Ember in an assassination mission... Guess who does more damage? Valkyr.

Frames and weapons are situational. If are adjusted to those situations... not against each other.

[Airyllish]

5 hours ago, MagPrime said:

I don't know that it wouldn't have any positive impact.  There are other MMO's that allow high rank players effectively drop their level to match someone elses, to avoid the situation we have here in Warframe, and the people I usually ran with used this feature often.  It was a great way for new players to play with older players and not have the game "ruined" by being whipped through content and never getting a decent handle on the game. 

For Warframe, I can see this kind of thing being beneficial for the same reasons.  I mentioned my uncle earlier, he just started playing yesterday and I worry that my brother and I are pushing him too far through the quests and maps.  We're both MR 21/22, he's MR1, and we tend to zip through everything because it's old hat for us.  It's really hard forcing ourselves to slow down. XD

But with a system mentioned, we could still help him out, at his pace, and not force his progression.  

It's also worth noting actually that - at least in all my experiences with games that scale you down to an appropriate level and I don't see Warframe as being any different - you would still have more power overall than the new player would have and the mission would still be comparatively easy.

The thing about being scaled down is that scaling can only do so much to limit your power. A R30 Ember scaled down to R10, in practise, is still going to be more powerful than a flat R10 Ember because scaling the frame down can't remove mods from the frame that you have equipped. R30 Ember also gets rank bonuses, which scaling down also wouldn't technically remove.

Guild Wars 2 is arguably the finest example of the scaling down mechanic finding a good balance between the likes of new and old players. A level 80 player can go back into a level 1-15 zone and gets taken down to the average level for an area in that map. They still collectively are stronger than a regular player of that average level; they have more base stats, they have more armour stats and they have more skills thanks to their traits and scaling cannot just get rid of these. Instead scaling tries to find the average of your stats and your traits go untouched, and the average stat is still typically much higher than the actual stat for somebody of that level.

So there's actually no reason that scaling down wouldn't work in Warframe. Scaled R30s are still getting the bonuses of having full mod loadouts and their frames stats will still generally be higher than the stats of a frame at the flat rank they've been scaled down to because of the fact their R30 bonuses don't get swept under the rug, either. On the opposing side of things, however, this still makes weapons pretty much untouched, because weapons don't scale in power with stats as they rank but they scale in power with mods. So to play devil's advocate for myself as well as to the idea overall (because I support the idea in theory) there would have to be something thought up for the weapons that does effectively "gimp" their power beyond simple scaling. Short of the game somehow managing to just pick and choose mods to "scale away" and remove the effects of, which would be clunky and potentially disastrous if it does it automatically without asking the player what mods they effectively want to remove, I can't see a way of scaling back weapons in the same manner of scaling frames.

[jazonw33d]

damage ISNT everything in a coop game...make yourself useful and stop asking for selfish nerfs..turning the dmg numbers off would actually benefit alot of meta players(whiners) in this game 

[Reifnir]

On 3/25/2017 at 11:13 PM, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

instead you get Ember players who feel the need to rush ahead of everyone with their WoF toggled on and just absorbing all the kills.

So let me get this straight...

You joined a low-level public match, where a random player with an Ember did a lion's share of work for which ALL of you got credit, but since they did not do it according to your preferences you want Ember nerfed? Is it just me, or there's about 0,0 ounces of logic in this?

I could understand such whining if Warframe was a competitive PvE game. You know, so that only the players who dealt the most damage received the loot, or top scores in mission result screen meant 2 Nitain extracts instead of one. But there's no such thing. Essentially, you're whining because someone has orange mission result numbers and you don't. Moreover, you're whining after bringing a frame devoid of ANY AoE abilities, with no AoE weapons to what was likely a mission to quickly kill a lot of weak enemies. What exactly were you expecting?

Saying that Ember needs to be nerfed considering the above is like saying that spoon needs to be nerfed because it's better suited for eating soup than a fork. How about I give you an equally brilliant idea - start complaining about Frost, because casting a Frost globe undermines your heroic attempts to shield a cryopod from enemy fire with your warframe. 

[--RV--D4VE-]

On 26.03.2017 at 7:05 AM, Zeclem said:

valkyr doesnt need nerf, and kills shouldnt be decided on who has the cheesier loadout.

ember doesnt need a nerf, but your points are even more stupid.

You know what sarcasm is right? Guy cries about not getting kills, says "i can stand my ground" and picks Valkyr "the most team oriented" warframe :)

[Zeclem]

3 minutes ago, --RV--D4VE- said:

You know what sarcasm is right? Guy cries about not getting kills, says "i can stand my ground" and picks Valkyr "the most team oriented" warframe :)

um, yeah. while valkyr isnt the most team oriented its a pretty good teamplayer with the cc and warcry she brings. she can be a pretty good teamplayer actually.

[(PSN)hahajake]

On 3/25/2017 at 4:27 PM, (PS4)dursereg said:

All I read was soneone whining that someone else killed more enemies then they did and now wants a nerf. 

That's because bads play meta frames and pretend they are good. Usually the same horrible people who rush to end game in MMOs and whine about content. Tired of people who compensate for real life short comings.

OP is right. 

[DxAdder]

On 3/25/2017 at 5:13 PM, (Xbox One)ITDeveloping said:

Screenshot from the nitain alert I just finished.

It's an alert so its a FFA, why would someone with a meta setup join ?

More people= More Affinity. you three were just as minor affinity boosters and to realistic with your setup did you really except to kill much ?

 

 

[(PSN)dursereg]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)hahajake said:

That's because bads play meta frames and pretend they are good. Usually the same horrible people who rush to end game in MMOs and whine about content. Tired of people who compensate for real life short comings.

OP is right. 

Coming from an ash player that's rich.

[(PSN)hahajake]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)dursereg said:

Coming from an ash player that's rich.

Looool 

K.

[DatDarkOne]

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

My attitude in this thread comes from the idea and aspect that "there is a wrong way to play WARFRAME".

I like this.  Many do forget that part.  For example, I like to try to stealth every mission in the game where it's possible (Spy, Exterminate, Sab, Rescue, and Capture).  This is what I like to do and it's very possible to do in Warframe.  I do this solo so that I don't upset others with my play style while allowing me to fully enjoy it.  Although many will say that Warframe is a horde shooter, it's also a stealth game for me.  A pretty good one too as long as you don't try to Leeroy Jenkins everything. 

P.S.  Old skool Marvel fan.  The "No Prize" use to be a one of the greatest honors Stan Lee would give out.  :D

[Trissila]

As much as you may not like it, "Scaling" is an appropriate response here.

 

Ember breaks trivial content, but she falls off hard on high-level things. The nerfed weapons broke even high-level content. Additionally, they affected EVERY frame, not just one, because any frame can carry any weapon.

 

It's a matter of priorities.

[DatDarkOne]

As much as I understand and sympathize with OP and the issue he/she brought up, the quote below contains my exact reason for opposing it.

4 hours ago, Reifnir said:

So let me get this straight...

You joined a low-level public match, where a random player with an Ember did a lion's share of work for which ALL of you got credit, but since they did not do it according to your preferences you want Ember nerfed? Is it just me, or there's about 0,0 ounces of logic in this?

Now, I and some others have brought up a possible solution that could satisfy everyone (hopefully) without doing anything over the top like nerfing Ember, Saryn, etc.

5 hours ago, Airyllish said:

Guild Wars 2 is arguably the finest example of the scaling down mechanic finding a good balance between the likes of new and old players. A level 80 player can go back into a level 1-15 zone and gets taken down to the average level for an area in that map. They still collectively are stronger than a regular player of that average level; they have more base stats, they have more armour stats and they have more skills thanks to their traits and scaling cannot just get rid of these. Instead scaling tries to find the average of your stats and your traits go untouched, and the average stat is still typically much higher than the actual stat for somebody of that level.

Now the trick will be to get DE to see this and get there viewpoints on if it's possible or not. 

[ChuckMaverick]

36 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Now the trick will be to get DE to see this and get there viewpoints on if it's possible or not.

It's clearly possible, the real question is whether it is desirable, for DE and the players in general.

It sounds like an idea that has potential, but I'm not yet convinced that we've suggested an implementation that would work well for Warframe.

[Reifnir]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Now the trick will be to get DE to see this and get there viewpoints on if it's possible or not. 

Frankly, I'd rather they introduce a Hard Mode for alerts/invasions. With more/better rewards but level 100+ enemies and a mastery rank lock of let's say, 15, so a basic Nitain Extract alert awarded 1 Nitain, and Hard Mode - two, with alerts being mutually exclusive. If players who can tackle high-level content won't have a reason to visit missions with level 10-20 enemies, amount of whining should go down drastically. 

[DxAdder]

20 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Frankly, I'd rather they introduce a Hard Mode for alerts/invasions. With more/better rewards but level 100+ enemies and a mastery rank lock of let's say, 15, so a basic Nitain Extract alert awarded 1 Nitain, and Hard Mode - two, with alerts being mutually exclusive. If players who can tackle high-level content won't have a reason to visit missions with level 10-20 enemies, amount of whining should go down drastically. 

^^^ Much Better Idea^^^ and much easier to implement.

 

[MagPrime]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)DShinShoryuken said:

-snip-

Good time chatting it up....oh, and I never assume. I am a presumer. And what the hek is a STRAWMAN? something you light to start a bonfire? I do not get all this mumbojumbo online talk you kids do these days....

 

Might try using Google.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[DatDarkOne]

58 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Frankly, I'd rather they introduce a Hard Mode for alerts/invasions. With more/better rewards but level 100+ enemies and a mastery rank lock of let's say, 15, so a basic Nitain Extract alert awarded 1 Nitain, and Hard Mode - two, with alerts being mutually exclusive. If players who can tackle high-level content won't have a reason to visit missions with level 10-20 enemies, amount of whining should go down drastically. 

I have no problems with this method either.  Heck, I like doing Kuva Floods for that exact reason.  How about having both methods?  That would be really nice.  :D