[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

They...get back up?

[ganjou234]

30 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Now we can stay in the Rif indefinetly, has no cast time, no energy cost and can banish groups.

A strategy I've been using is: before sending anything to the Rif, use Stasis. Banish as many as you'd like. Enter and kill them.

Even before using Cataclysm I've been using Stais first because that stagger is just not enough to stop them from shooting you.

Seems workable to me......

Can someone play around with the Buzlok and Time Stop? (I have an idea that I have yet to execute...)

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

They...get back up?

 

You stab them all for 300k plus damage with a 700%+ damage modifier.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

All you people with your stabbing. Limbo should be 300m away before anyone is standing back up! 

[(PSN)Cyotis]

So Stretch + Overextended + Continuity (Primed, if possible) + Constitution would equal a long lasting, huge Stopped area if you activated Stasis then Cataclysm. Then melee to murder everyone. Is this theory correct?

 

[Shadu]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Cyotis said:

So Stretch + Overextended + Continuity (Primed, if possible) + Constitution would equal a long lasting, huge Stopped area if you activated Stasis then Cataclysm. Then melee to murder everyone. Is this theory correct?

 

Yes and if you add some strength mods and Rift Torrent you'll be getting a huge damage multiplier as well cataclysm still shrinks. Do know though, this is really annoying to play for your squad mates. It's fine for solo play but do consider squad mates.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Shadu

[(PSN)psycofang]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Cyotis said:

So Stretch + Overextended + Continuity (Primed, if possible) + Constitution would equal a long lasting, huge Stopped area if you activated Stasis then Cataclysm. Then melee to murder everyone. Is this theory correct?

 

 

Put on rift torrent n yup.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

7 hours ago, Voidforged said:

now how about something armored? even a lancer would survive that no problem.

Actually Rob from AGGP did some research on how the new Cataclysm computes damage and its kind of strange. If you use it on several Lancers, its not gonna kill them but if you have a couple of Heavy Gunners mixed in with those Lancers, it kills all the Lancers but just damages the Heavy Gunners. Its supposed to scale with the number of enemies and the health/shields of the enemies in the bubble. If some enemies are stronger than others, the weaker ones die.

Its still not clear how it works.

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Actually Rob from AGGP did some research on how the new Cataclysm computes damage and its kind of strange. If you use it on several Lancers, its not gonna kill them but if you have a couple of Heavy Gunners mixed in with those Lancers, it kills all the Lancers but just damages the Heavy Gunners. Its supposed to scale with the number of enemies and the health/shields of the enemies in the bubble. If some enemies are stronger than others, the weaker ones die.

Its still not clear how it works.

 

I think its like maim release where the damage distribution isnt linear. 

If its killing lancers but not bombards then it might be that a decent chunk of the damage targets the lowest armor value first then moves towards the higher armored enemies which then get reduced.

[StealthDragoon]

New meta: Be Limbo, go into pub survival, dodge yourself in the Rift, stand still next to a life capsule and watch others fight for you.

There needs to be a mechanism where if you stand still for 10 seconds, you are cast out of the Rift.

Limbo farting rift portals everywhere is annoying.

Getting Banish by a wave because you were in his line of sight is annoying.

Not being able to shoot enemies while he uses Stasis in a Cataclysm is like saying "this is my playing field, go away" and it's annoying.

Having to forcefully dodge to enter/exit Rift? Annoying.

Semi-AFK XP farmers in mission that are invincible forever? Annoying.

I don't know why you guys kicked the hornet's nest on this one, but I sure can hear all the buzz right now. I'm really sorry, but I don't like the new Limbo.

[shut]

The whole "Banish can push enemies to opposite plane, but cannot pull enemies to same plane" thing really bugs me. I'm not sure if this was chosen specifically as a balancing decision, but all this does is force rifted Limbos to pull enemies in with Cataclysm instead.

 

I'd love to be able to "swap" the plane of the target (like pre-rework), but the big issue is what would happen if Limbo presses 1 while a crowd of enemies (both rifted and not-rifted) are in front of him. 
- If enemies in the same plane as Limbo are pushed to the opposite plane, then the ability is 100% reliable but is super clunky to use. (This is the current system.)
- If all of those enemies simply "swap" what plane they're in, then the ability is smoother to use but is much less reliable. (Having even a single enemy in the wrong plane is often a death sentence for Limbo at high levels, so this option would be even worse.)

To top it off, both of these solutions lack precision. If you want to move a single target to another plane without affecting what's around it, then you're screwed either way.

 

 

I think a balance could be found. Let's say that holding 1 "highlights" enemies that the crosshair touches, and releasing 1 "swaps" the plane of each target at a small energy cost.

Advantages:
- Players can push/pull enemies across Planes as they please. (i.e. It's versatile.)
- There should be very few "whoops, one guy's in the wrong plane!" mishaps. If a single enemy is mistakenly placed in the wrong plane, the player can simply push/pull it to the opposite one without affecting anything else. (i.e. It's reliable, and it's precise.)

Disadvantages:
- It's a bit slower to use. (But still safe, since Limbo can just stay in a frozen rift while he activates it.)

 

Thoughts?

Edited March 27, 2017 by SortaRandom

[Telogor]

• Multi Banish sucks.  It sucks when you accidentally bring extremely dangerous enemies into the Rift when it would be far better to leave them outside of the Rift.  I recommend changing the ability to be 10 energy per banish target, and you can hold the ability after the initial cast to bring additional targets into the Rift.
• Enemies in the other plane being untargetable by Banish sucks even more than anything else.  What's the point of being all-powerful in the Rift when you can't bring enemies to you (and their doom).  Revert this massive nerf.
• Stasis sucks.  It's nice in theory, but having your bullets and projectiles paused just feels terrible in practice.
• I recommend replacing Stasis with another ability.
• Remove shrinkage from Cataclysm.  It just makes the ability far harder to use with little-to-no gameplay benefit.
• Rift Surge is weird, and I don't know if I like it or not.  It seems extremely complicated, and doesn't seem to have any real uses.

Ability suggestions for Limbo:

• Rift Storm: Rift Storm violently ejects all enemies from the Rift, dealing x Finisher damage to them and y Radiation damage to enemies within z meters.  Enemies inside Cataclysm (since they cannot be removed from the Rift) instead get slowed by w% and take v Radiation DPS until they leave Cataclysm/Cataclysm expires.
• Rift Tear: Tenno, allies, and their projectiles/bullets/other attacks switch between the two planes when going through this tear.  It would be similar to Electric Shield in size and allow Tenno in the Rift to shoot into the material plane and vice versa.
• Rift Wave: Like Ice Wave, but Banishes all targets hit by it.

[Walkampf]

Dash:

Using the dash to enter/leave the Rift simply is great! it massivly increases Limbos gameplay flow.

Passive:

Generating 10 energy for every enemy killed in the rift is a really nice change. Limbo always needed a LOT of energy and the rework might have incrased this amouteven more. This creates a very unique energy-economy compared to other Warframes.

Ability 1 - Banish:

At first i thought it was rather clunky to having to leave the Rift in order to pull new enemies into the Rift, but after a few msiions I realised, this is actually a very smart way to force the player out of the rift without relying on "articificial" restrictions like an ability duration. This way Limbo cannot simply stay in the rift all the time.

Also, making it AoE and causing a knockdown are great changes!

Ability 2 - Stasis:

Awesome!

Ability 3 - Rift Surge

It's actually rather hard to fugure out, how exacly this ability works. Right now it seems it's Limbos abiliy to pull enemies into the Rift without having to leave the Rift himself. But this ability defintitly needs some practice.

Ability 4 - Cataclysm

The scaling damage is a very nice touch and it's synergy with Stasis is incredlibe.

[shut]

27 minutes ago, Telogor said:

• Stasis sucks.  It's nice in theory, but having your bullets and projectiles paused just feels terrible in practice.
• I recommend replacing Stasis with another ability.

Are you kidding? Stasis is arguably the best thing to ever happen to Limbo in terms of effectiveness. It's a cheap, extremely long-lasting buff that basically prevents any friendly player/objective in the Rift from ever taking damage (no matter how many enemies are inside).
Chilling Snowglobe wishes it could hold a candle to a Statis'd Cataclysm.

 

The projectile-pausing has literally two downsides:
- The projectile limit can throw off your rhythm if you get really, really careless.
- You don't get instant feedback for how much damage you do, and instead have to guesstimate how many shots it'll take to kill each enemy.

And that's it. You can even get around both of these downsides by bringing in a reliable melee weapon instead-- or you can take an occasional 1-second break from attacking to decast+recast Stasis and see how much damage was dealt.

[greymaniac]

Seeing limbo' s everywhere after the changes. So far the most annoying thing has to be their new "roll to enter and exit the rift" ability. This is fine in principal, but becomes problematic when limbo s are moving around fast and rolling along the other parkour moves. This creates rift portal poop everywhere and causes other players to enter the rift unwillingly.

Other than that, I have to add that I still hate the cataclysm effect. The new stasis ability seems like a fun and useful addition.

 

[0meg4x]

Banished allies are not affected by Nullifiers now.

Wuuuuut?

[Eldest89]

fix Banish... please

[Trichouette]

12 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

So...you wrote that before it was merged, and I'm the one who made the mistake? It's gonna be one of those days, huh...? XD

Exactly ^^

On topic, please nerf limbo's cataclysm's collapse damage, there is no reason for him to be a "press 4 to destroy the map" frame, especially after all the work you guys did to nerf this kind of gameplay.

[Hi.Im.Limbo]

The limbo rework is good, and it's kinda feels nice that limbo is receiving a lot of love. (well maybe)

Anyway, about the limbo rework, I was kinda wondering if you put some kind of indicator which his 2nd ability:stasis displays the number of bullets that are being shot while the ability is active.

 

That's all. thanks DE. Keep up the good work.

[Godzilla853]

The limit is 300 projectiles but it's smaller for some weapons like Zars cannon fire is one shot and pox is 20

[DarkOvion]

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Dash:

Using the dash to enter/leave the Rift simply is great! it massivly increases Limbos gameplay flow.

As a long time Limbo player, I've found it's hurt flow with limbo pretty badly honestly.

I like the concept of perm flip and it will probably be somewhat resolved with practice, but having to constantly tap shift, currently hurts my bullet jumping and movement. For this at least with practice I can see myself liking it.

Additionally, with this change Limbos movement profile was nerfed. He moves slower than before, and Bullet Jumps are not as effective. Plus, there's no longer any movement speed increases in the Rift. With over 800 hours in Limbo, this particular is really messing me up, as the frame doesn't go where I expect it to when I move.

AND, the Rift Tears that team mates come fall through has already got complaints.

 

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Passive:

Generating 10 energy for every enemy killed in the rift is a really nice change. Limbo always needed a LOT of energy and the rework might have incrased this amouteven more. This creates a very unique energy-economy compared to other Warframes.

That's fine, but it would have been nice to retain the mobility speed increases and honestly, the reload speed increase. If everything is going to be limited to the Rift, and you can't interact between planes, keeping those things would have been nice.

 

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Ability 1 - Banish:

At first i thought it was rather clunky to having to leave the Rift in order to pull new enemies into the Rift, but after a few msiions I realised, this is actually a very smart way to force the player out of the rift without relying on "articificial" restrictions like an ability duration. This way Limbo cannot simply stay in the rift all the time.

Also, making it AoE and causing a knockdown are great changes!

No, it is still clunky.

Being an artificial restriction isn't even very effective. It just hurts the frames gameplay.

Additionally, Banish ALWAYS had a Knockdown, it was part of what made it so good. The ability to pull a single target in the rift and knock it down, combined with rift surges damage increase meant Limbo could kill any single hard targets fast and effectively at will.

It being AoE hurts. I mean, if it was tap for single, hold for AoE that'd have been fantastic, but it's not.

Clipping team mates in combat is now prevalent, and has already got complaints.

 

4 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Ability 2 - Stasis:

Awesome!

Eh, it's OK.

Feels more gimmicky than anything at this point, as often by the time I've left the rift to put things in it and cast Banish, everything is dead anyway.

And when Cataclysm, by the time I've set up shots it's often shrunk past the targets which sorta sucks. Needs more practice and some heavy build changes, but honestly at this point it feels like a poor replacement for Rift Surge's damage.

 

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Ability 3 - Rift Surge

It's actually rather hard to fugure out, how exacly this ability works. Right now it seems it's Limbos abiliy to pull enemies into the Rift without having to leave the Rift himself. But this ability defintitly needs some practice.

It's tricky, confusing, impractical and basically completely useless.

If you DO use it, you effectively completely lose control of what does and doesn't have Rift Access, it doesn't provide any particular benefits.

Which means I can't really use it, whereas before I had Rift Surge active the whole time.

Instead, I need to use 4-9 times the ammo, and take SIGNIFICANTLY more time to deal with then before.

 

Limbo has gone from an efficient Scalpel frame, specialising in Field Control and dictating how and when he engages, to a slow and inefficient AoE spam frame, that can sometimes sorta dictate when he engages, but mostly just has to deal with groups.

[Clonmac]

11 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Doesn't that strike you as slightly problematic?

No, because it takes skill to use those abilities now since he has to play outside the rift more. You can't just carelessly use his abilities without considering what will happen if you don't finish off specific enemies before stasis wears off. You need to think about whether you should banish enemies back to the material plane or not. To use Banish, he needs to play outside the rift more. When you bring down Cataclysm, he is taken out of the rift. It takes skill to understand when is the best time to use those abilities so that you don't expose yourself at the wrong time. These are the very weaknesses that people are calling to be removed from him which is crazy to me. I think those weaknesses are fairly balanced with the new strength that he has and I also don't think those weaknesses make him impossible to use at any given level. If anything, they make him more fun to play at all levels of the game, especially the higher levels.

9 hours ago, Shadu said:

Do know though, this is really annoying to play for your squad mates. It's fine for solo play but do consider squad mates.

You've said this many times so far that Cataclysm is annoying for your teammates. Can you elaborate on why you feel it is annoying for your teammates? You can now pickup loot from within Cataclysm which was the biggest detriment previously. So there really is no difference between being in Cataclysm versus being outside it now. They even decreased the visual effects from within it as well.

The only thing it does is that it prevents you from shooting on the other side of it, but as a teammate, you're in complete control of that. You have the ability to move on either side of it. That's ignoring that fact that with Cataclysm up, it protects you from those enemies on the other side of it as well. So any detriment because of this fact has to be equally weighed with the benefit of that same mechanic. At high levels, I have never had a teammate complain about that, instead I've received thanks for protecting them with Cataclysm now that enemies are completely frozen in time inside it.

I would think you'd be more upset about Snow Globe, since it is a more permanent structure, prevents you from even shooting on the other side of it while you're not even in it, and it is much smaller which makes the benefit it provides harder to take advantage of. I've frequently come across snow globes that prevent me from attacking the enemies I want to attack and those enemies will never make it through the snow globe which means I have to go to them. That doesn't happen with Cataclysm.

 

Also, as far as Stasis being annoying to teammates, I think it is only annoying to teammates who don't know how it works. And I do think there are a lot of people who don't read the updates who have no clue how it works. I often see teammates firing constantly at the same enemy with stasis up not understanding why he isn't dying. As a teammate, when stasis is up, you shouldn't treat the enemies any different than you otherwise would. Just fire a few shots at each enemy that would normally kill them and move on. As soon as stasis ends, you'll get your kill credit. No reason to complain.

[Quanlain]

Limbo is yet to recieve some QoL changes i think;

I also would really love directional dodge, in case i don't want to fly away like 5 meters to unbanish myself, i could dodge towards the floor and stay on the place.
And i think that Rift tear should be interactable, because i had some hate towards me for people stepping iside of the rift by accident.

UI indicater is nice, but i had no real problems so far.

[Shadu]

1 minute ago, Clonmac said:

You've said this many times so far that Cataclysm is annoying for your teammates. Can you elaborate on why you feel it is annoying for your teammates? You can now pickup loot from within Cataclysm which was the biggest detriment previously. So there really is no difference between being in Cataclysm versus being outside it now. They even decreased the visual effects from within it as well.

It's from my experience from playing with other limbo's, when cataclysm isn't at it's max range (250% range) the area is too small for multiple players to kill inside of it.. there just aren't enough enemies usually. This then leads to constantly having to move to the outside of the bubble. Whenever stasis is running and cataclysm is up, if I'm not the limbo who is using it I just move away from the cataclysm because I usually don't like to melee and thus bring crap melee weapons with me that can't handle with it. You don't have any control over when stasis will be released so as a random player who runs into a Limbo it doesn't feel great. This then leads to me feeling, welp he used stasis I gotta move and get away from my squad mates.

By having learned how cataclysm and stasis can be an annoyance to others when I ain't the Limbo around I try to limit my usage of my spells whenever I am playing Limbo due to it.
I agree with frost being an annoyance with his globe at times as well though but often enough you're hiding in the globe and shooting out of it so it's less so,

 

How do others feel about cataclysm currently still shrinking over time? It was one change I was nearly sure of that they would make.. yet it now still shrinks which I still hope to be changed (having a 30sec cataclysm but having to recast already after 20 second because of it shrinking isn't okay).

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Couldn't tell you. Never used Cataclysm as a Limbo player; his 3 and 4 were not useful abilities for the work I did with him. I left pub groups where Limbo apparently couldn't control himself and pooped cataclysms everywhere, since it made it difficult to fight and difficult to see. But I never used it personally. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack