[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Trichouette]

7 minutes ago, FoxyKabam said:

inb4 cataclysm nerf

Soon hopefully

The rest of the rework is nice though, at least now limbo can't get killed in his own dimension

[Nox_Terminus]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Could you try it without the most broken aura in the game(yes CP is needed to fight the broken grineer armor scaling but the fact is that it is hands down the most broken aura as it completely removes armor) and see what happens?

Yes it nukes things when they have zero armor to defend against it.  What about when enemies actually have armor to shrug off most of that damage?

So yes, we've found that "It can one-shot large groups of mobs when they have zero armor" but what happens when armor is thrown in?
Especially since the majority of random groups wont have 4 CPs equipped.

You consider that an unfair argument? Ok

Find me a warframe with a 4 which can instantaneously kill 2/3 factions in one second regardless of level without build up or skill. It doesn't exist (Mags dead Jim.)

Edited April 3, 2017 by Nox_Terminus

[Kyryo]

No need to nerf the cataclysm. you should play him a little more. 

Limbo cataclysm has increbile problems against lv 200+ enemies (especially grineers) like every other frame. 

Thus, sentients are still a pain.

 

I think this rework is good as it is.

 

[Trichouette]

13 minutes ago, Kyryo said:

No need to nerf the cataclysm. you should play him a little more. 

Limbo cataclysm has increbile problems against lv 200+ enemies (especially grineers) like every other frame. 

Thus, sentients are still a pain.

 

I think this rework is good as it is.

 

Like we fight level 200+ enemies everyday...

It can't kill easily enemies with armor but it can easily kill pretty much everything else.

And again, the "it doesn't work against grineer so it's fine" argument isn't valid, look at pre-rework mag.

[Torrempesta]

6 hours ago, RobWasHere said:

Enemy armor mitigates A LOT of that damage. Eximi and natural resistant enemies (like Hyekka) are also resistant to Catabubble.

Still got 95% of dmg on a corpus sorti lvl100...

[Kyryo]

33 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Like we fight level 200+ enemies everyday...

i do.

[Trichouette]

Just now, Kyryo said:

i do.

Well still, nothing is balanced at that level so there is no need saying "that ability isn't strong against lvl 200 enemies" because pretty much every ability that deal damage is useless at this level (but not all of them...)

[DarcnyssWolfe]

15 minutes ago, Torrempesta said:

Still got 95% of dmg on a corpus sorti lvl100...

Rift damage scales off health and shields so only grineer are semi-safe until their numbers out grow their health. That said, noticed on higher levels it's a hit or miss when it comes to nuking, since generally if you don't instant nuke, your second shot does fairly basic damage since only the hardiest units survive a full cataclysm.

[(PSN)psycofang]

15 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Additional thoughts on Limbo after further play:

Problems:

1)Stasis is disruptive to team play and gunplay. 

In a solo situation and for a melee player it's great stuff. In public matches, it gets overloaded in the blink of an eye, and often has teammates screeching in frustration because suddenly their guns don't work. Ideally they should know they can just use melee, but most people are not listening/don't know.

Trying to use guns in stasis is cute when you are fooling around in the simulcrum but in the actual 'field' it quickly becomes frustrating because there is no way to know when an enemy will die. You either overshoot and waste ammo or don't shoot enough. 

Solution Proposal:

For the teamplay thing, there is no solution except communication and a willingness to learn game mechanics. Nothing the devs can do.

For gunplay, and in general:

For hitscan and melee, make an indicator when an enemy will receive enough damage to deplete their HP, for example: greying and dulling them out.em

2)RIft Surge is clunky and needs a reason to use:

So, Rift surge is super clunky. 

How it works:

You have to have at least 1 enemy in the rift to use it, you have to target it at enemies, killing them is supposed to transfer charge, banishing charged enemies should transfer charge to nearby enemies and also banish them.

It's supposed to help with banishing a lot of enemies, but in my opinion it's overcomplicated. Too many requirements, having to do this over and over sucks.

Solution Proposal:

1)Charged enemies should be able to be banished across the rift, and rift enemies around them too.

2)Banishing charged enemies should increase the range of your banish.

3)Rift surge should be able to be cast without having enemies in the rift

Just this change will make surge worthwhile to use and less finnicky. This will allow Limbo to spread banish and rift enemies rapidly with chain reactions.

With this, Banish can be turned back into single target to give him choice between singling out targets and going on crowd rampages, and also make him more smooth to use.

 

3)Cataclym unrifts Limbo

Makes no sense, and puts Limbo in unnecessary danger.

Solution Proposal:

Unrift other players but keep Limbo in.

 

Thoughts on Cataclysm:

I keep repeating myself on this but I urge people not to take simulcrum testings as actual examples of power. Cataclysm is not the god killing aoe nuke it is being made out to be. Simulcrum testings do not take into account different health types, and varying armor. Like any AoE ability Cataclysm can in most cases clear trash mobs. 

Outside of camped playstyles like in certain small and narrow defense maps where high concentrations of enemies are funneled to the players this ability does not perform as people would have you think.

 

Closing thoughts:

Give me a Limbo Deluxe skin pls.

@[DE]Danielle

[FriarTuck]

About Limbo's passive: I think Limbo should get energy for enemies killed in Rift or by Rift.
At the moment Limbo shouldn't kill enemies by collapsing Cataclysm if he needs energy because enemies are dealt damage after they leave Rift. Even if they're Surged, they take damage after leaving Rift but before they are banished by RS.
I think it's kinda wrong.

Edited April 3, 2017 by FriarTuck

[ChameleonBro]

23 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Im glad a few people understand how his 4 works, like i said before, putting 10 of the same enemies in the simul without mixing around hp values creates mis-information regarding how it works on the field.

Yup. It also can't be efficient when spammed since it scales 10% of the current health of enemies, which means Cataclysm will be the strongest at the first cast and gets weaker and weaker cause of the enemies HP being lower thus reducing your damage output.

[ChameleonBro]

8 hours ago, hukurokuju5 said:

stasis needs a particle or UI alert/sound effect so that people know when its on or off

I mean... The guys stand completely still... I think that's good enough of an indicator that Stasis is on

[YagoXiten]

Limbo does not need nerfed.

Cataclysm does. And just Cataclysm.

Limbo's Stasis is incredibly powerful, but it is honestly weaker and/or less convenient CC than many of the other forms we have in game already.

The only way to use it is to drag enemies into the Rift. And to do that, Limbo must end his invulnerability long enough to cast Banish, use Rift Surge and Banish a target that is already in the Rift, or to use Cataclysm and Rift Surge, which will also (whether Cataclysm is detonated manually or ends naturally) end his invulnerability briefly. Those windows where Limbo is in the material plane or where Stasis must be toggled off are more than long enough for him to take damage or even be downed, and the cast time of Stasis is long enough to allow an enemy to fire off an attack. Whilst it will end up paused, it is very possible to allow a Bombard rocket to Red Light Green Light its way to him. Not to mention the fact that Limbo has to constantly be searching for enemies that are not yet in the Rift, and remembering to hit Rift Surge to make sure everything stays in the Rift.

The worst 'abuse' case of Stasis is that Limbo uses his abilities perfectly and never misses an enemy or loses track of what plane they are in, and he can indefinitely kill enemies without them being able to retaliate, thus ensuring mission success. But does that even matter? Stasis requires Limbo to constantly interact with his surroundings and use all of his powers, and in doing so he has dozens and dozens of opportunities to make mistakes. As a result, Stasis granting Limbo the potential to make missions infallible does not invalidate gameplay. It merely changes the rules of the game. And it does so in a way that is interactive and fun.

[Fallen_Echo]

It just got reworked to be somehow useful,stop it!

Enough with the nerf posts!

[ChameleonBro]

4 hours ago, brainjelly2g0 said:

I want to preface this by saying Limbo was my favorite frame before the rework, and he still is. However, he now currently has every facet of the game cornered in the cheesiest way.

Support? Anyone on your squad goes down, Papa Limbo can revive them with ease.

Defense? He can make the pod completely invincible to enemies, and can stop them from accessing it completely. Hostages too, but that's always been his meta.

Survivability? Tap shift. Do that, and you literally gain energy for your efforts, while being invincible.

Offense? Cataclysm takes 10% of the combined health and armor of all enemies inside it, and when it collapses, deals that. Basically, if you have 10 enemies within your 4, and hit it again, they all die. And it scales. Endlessly. This is literally the most powerful ability in-game.

 

Now, how do you fix him? Well, DE, you need to focus on what he should be, because having Limbo be everything is clearly broken as hell.

 

The Supporter

  Reveal hidden contents

This Limbo would be focused on protecting allies, and buffing them with movement speed and damage in the Rift.

Rift Passives-

2 energy per second for everyone, with 10 energy rewarded when enemies are killed inside the Rift.

Limbo Passive- 

4 energy per second, and 20 energy rewarded when enemies are killed inside the Rift. This incentivizes players to be inside Limbo's Cataclysm, and him using it as a large-range buff-zone. He keeps his dodge.

Banish-

Can be cast on enemies or allies, from any plane, and will send them into the other plane. If cast on the same plane, it is an AoE. If cast on different planes, it's single-target. Basically, it lets Limbo act as either a squad-saver or an Assassin, who focuses solely on Heavies.

Stasis-

2-second drain at base, which goes down to .5 with maxed efficiency. Cancels out Energy Regen. Stasis is ridiculously powerful, and having it not drain energy is a very weird design flaw. 

Freezes all enemies, but doesn't effect projectiles. Currently, players are completely useless if they're in a mission with a Max-Range Limbo, who likes Stasis, and his allies don't know it at first. If they forgot a melee, or wanted to level one specific gun, then they're boned. Having it not effect Projectiles encourages players to actually bring a Limbo along.

Rift Surge-

I loved the old Rift Surge, but I also love the new one. Combining them would be perfect, as it would make Limbo a small step-down of Banshee in terms of team damage.

All Allies in the Rift gain XX damage multiplier, and all enemies in the Rift are surged. If those enemies leave the Rift, they banish others around them, causing permanent Rifting. Perhaps you could cut the damage multplier's scaling with power-strength, but beyond that, I think this is a much needed change.

Cataclysm- 

No longer shrinks in size, but also does not deal damage. Enemies who enter will be stunned momentarily, unless Stasis is up. Items and Consoles still enter the Rift. That just makes sense. This is mostly a return to old-Cataclysm, but with some touch-ups to some of its components. 

Goals-

As you can see, the main purpose of this Limbo is to turn him into a Support-Defensive frame, which is a niche not too populated currently(except Icy Avalanche Frost). If this route were used, cheese would lessen, but Limbo would emerge in the meta slowly, and his hardcore fans would appreciate the changes.

 

The Nuker

  Reveal hidden contents

Rift Passive-

The Rift on its own has no passives.

Limbo Passive-

No longer regens energy in the Rift, but still gets 10 energy per enemy killed. Keeps Dodge

Banish-

Tap to Banish one person. Hold to Banish group. Single Target will be knocked down, while AoE will be staggered. Deals no damage.

Stasis-

Completely scrapped. It's simply too powerful for a DPS frame. It's instead replaced by-

Rift Pulse-

This ability is designed to be wonky. Basically, it's a timer. At a base of 15 seconds, during that time, it takes 15% of the EHP of all enemies who have entered or exited the Rift, and deals it to all enemies inside the Rift at the end of its duration. Does not count enemies twice..This ability encourages many enemies to be in the Rift, but also puts Limbo's DPS on a timer, so that he can't just spam his 4 to kill everyone.

Rift Surge-

Multiplies all damage dealt in the Rift by 2.5x. When used with Rift Pulse, you're basically guaranteeing your enemies deaths.

Cataclysm-

It now Shrinks at double the rate, but then grows for the other half of its duration. Deals no damage. This encourages Limbo to use one, rather than many, then go around Banishing groups in time for the Rift Pulse.

 

Goals-

My intention for this is obvious. Completely turn Limbo into damaging frame. However, to maintain his uniqueness, Rift Pulse was added, so it's not simply press 4 to win. 

These are the two ways I can see Limbo going, with both specializing him, reducing his ridiculous power across the board, while buffing whatever niche DE wants him to feel. If you have suggestions, or a different specialization idea, please put it down below.

Let me tell you why you are not completely right

1. He is the best reviver but if there are nullifiers around you are more than likely screwed unless the teammate manages to get rid of the bubble, and you can't cause you are in the rift. This is something he could always do so it stayed, nothing changed here.

2. Yes, currently he is the best defense frame, though that makes you switch between planes to do different things which requires more things to do. A refreshing sight to see.

3. Yes he is practically immortal, but you can't do S#&$ if you do what you just said. "Just press shift", that is putting things out of context, sure you can't die but you can't do anything either. It is his main mechanic and was from the get go, the only difference being he can do it now with the press of a different button

4. Cataclysm is NOT as strong as people lead on to. It scales by doing damage based on 10% of all enemies CURRENT health and SHIELDS, NOT armor which is important. He can take down trash mobs. Especially the Corpus and the infested, but anything with armor will nullify most of the damage barely taking out trash mobs. It also does 10% of the CURRENT hp and shields which means it will be significantly weaker the more you use it. Using an ability on low level missions doesn't make it broken. If you want to nerf the damage of Cataclysm than you might as well nerfr Banshees Sound Quacke, Mesa's Peacemaker etc, Having abilities scale is a great thing and if you noticed, DE has been pushing scaling for quite a bit. Nekros rework - scales, Nidus - scales, Octavia - scales, Limbo rework - scales. I would not be surprised at all if future frames and reworks do the same thing, it is necessary in a game like Warframe which suffers from powercreep.

 

Cataclysm used to be a very underwhelming ability which only sent an area to the rift, damage was pathetic and didn't have anything going for it, it was suicide. Now it feels like an actual ability worth of being a 4th ability. Players who build for nuking lose out on the rest of Limbos kit which in my eyes is a fair trade off, as in why the hell would you throw away everything you have for a nuke.

Edited April 3, 2017 by ChameleonBro

[Kyryo]

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

(but not all of them...)

you saved yourself with that... (takes nidus back into the closet)

[.Murk.]

5 hours ago, ChameleonBro said:

Yup. It also can't be efficient when spammed since it scales 10% of the current health of enemies, which means Cataclysm will be the strongest at the first cast and gets weaker and weaker cause of the enemies HP being lower thus reducing your damage output.

go try it out and tell me its not broken, just dash into the rift and hit 4 twice then dash back into the rift wait a little bit and do it again. Works on floods, sorties, very high endless...

(don't you dare take energy siphon over corrosive projection)

Edited April 4, 2017 by Murkar

[Scourger]

While the animation is absolutely badass and not paying energy for it is logical and super comfortable (thank you!), rolling to enter and exit the rift is very frustrating, as you can't prepare precise shots or stand on one point without falling, and it limits your maneuverability, which sucks in a game like this one. I suggest having an extra hotkey for it.

The other extremely frustrating thing is the banish restriction of being on the opposite plane of existence.

I would personally get rid of the fact that our own projectiles get caught in the stasis, as it makes everything unnecessarily slow, but that's personal preference, and it also looks way too cool.

Everything else is great.

[ChameleonBro]

You make great points. I like it that you pointed out that you can build Limbo in different ways and still have the builds be efficient. Yes he can be trolly, in my experience from playing him for about a week, out of all the games I had I only had 1 complaint, and that was when I messed up while playing, it was my fault. Other times people either didn't complain or just asked me to stop doing something that annoys them (rarely ever happened). The thing is a lot of other frames can be trolly as well, in different ways. Some being worse than his nuke build. And even those nukers, when they decide to go with that build they lose the rest of Limbos kit which is a good trade off for people like that. 

Some things you mentioned for me were actually good, like having to think  a lot more. I like that because it makes Limbo hard to master, that makes him special for me.

[ChameleonBro]

18 minutes ago, Murkar said:

go try it out and tell me its not broken, just dash into the rift and hit 4 twice then dash back into the rift wait a little bit and do it again. Works on floods, sorties, very high endless...

It can work against corpus and infested but not armored enemies which is something I noticed. Honestly though when you build for nuking you lose the rest of Limbos potential which for me is a good enough trade off, Limbo ain't the only one who can clear maps of enemies (not armored ones though) *cough* sound quake *cough*

[(PSN)psycofang]

1 hour ago, FriarTuck said:

About Limbo's passive: I think Limbo should get energy for enemies killed in Rift or by Rift.
At the moment Limbo shouldn't kill enemies by collapsing Cataclysm if he needs energy because enemies are dealt damage after they leave Rift. Even if they're Surged, they take damage after leaving Rift but before they are banished by RS.
I think it's kinda wrong.

 

I agree he shouldnt get energy back after collapsing cataclysm. This in turn could easily nerf his 4 spam.

[PsiWarp]

While it does look cool, could you guys fix the enemy corpses lingering in the air when killed during Stasis? It's really confusing when you're going on a melee rampage and still see frozen dead enemies you try to hit not going away.

[Kierlak]

In this version of Limbo, both Banish and Rift Torrent are largely useless. Without being able to pull things into the rift with you there's simply no reason to ever use banish over Cataclysm, and Rift Torrent doesn't actually do anything positive (or even anything at all really) unless you use the augment. Once Cataclysm gets ruined like Bladestorm, Limbo is going to have nothing but Stasis to fall back on, and that's going to end up being a SUPER team disruptive version of a Bastille Vauban.

[brainjelly2g0]

1 hour ago, ChameleonBro said:

Let me tell you why you are not completely right

1. He is the best reviver but if there are nullifiers around you are more than likely screwed unless the teammate manages to get rid of the bubble, and you can't cause you are in the rift. This is something he could always do so it stayed, nothing changed here.

2. Yes, currently he is the best defense frame, though that makes you switch between planes to do different things which requires more things to do. A refreshing sight to see.

3. Yes he is practically immortal, but you can't do S#&$ if you do what you just said. "Just press shift", that is putting things out of context, sure you can't die but you can't do anything either. It is his main mechanic and was from the get go, the only difference being he can do it now with the press of a different button

4. Cataclysm is NOT as strong as people lead on to. It scales by doing damage based on 10% of all enemies CURRENT health and SHIELDS, NOT armor which is important. He can take down trash mobs. Especially the Corpus and the infested, but anything with armor will nullify most of the damage barely taking out trash mobs. It also does 10% of the CURRENT hp and shields which means it will be significantly weaker the more you use it. Using an ability on low level missions doesn't make it broken. If you want to nerf the damage of Cataclysm than you might as well nerfr Banshees Sound Quacke, Mesa's Peacemaker etc, Having abilities scale is a great thing and if you noticed, DE has been pushing scaling for quite a bit. Nekros rework - scales, Nidus - scales, Octavia - scales, Limbo rework - scales. I would not be surprised at all if future frames and reworks do the same thing, it is necessary in a game like Warframe which suffers from powercreep.

 

Cataclysm used to be a very underwhelming ability which only sent an area to the rift, damage was pathetic and didn't have anything going for it, it was suicide. Now it feels like an actual ability worth of being a 4th ability. Players who build for nuking lose out on the rest of Limbos kit which in my eyes is a fair trade off, as in why the hell would you throw away everything you have for a nuke.

+1 for actual, cogent criticism.

1. I don't really base any of my assumptions around 1 specific faction. Yeah, he has a bit of a weak spot on Corpus. Yeah, he has a bit of a weak spot on Grineer. But, even with nullifiers existing, their changes are amazing, and provide fun gameplay. But, they're a hell of a lot easier to take down, and don't provide that large of a speed bump when reviving(at least for me, but I prefer accurate weapons).

2. While I like switching between planes in some cases, I usually just plop a Cataclysm over whatever I'm protecting, and double-check my stasis.

3. Fair point. Most players don't understand how to use a Cataclysm to keep yourself covered while you're doing things(holdover from Old Limbo)

4. I actually didn't know it was their current health and shields. Thanks. But, taking out swaths of trash mobs in two button presses is still OP. Less aiming than Peacemaker, less stationary than Sound Quake, and nigh on instantaneous. I appreciate scaling, but having it be that instant is my issue. Just removing the damage isn't how it should be done(unless Limbo isn't support), and reducing the damage will either make it useless or just a repeat of the problem.

Right now, I'm lucky to go into a mission and not find a Limbo. In the pre-work days, I would gladly welcome another Limbo-user, though they were far and between. Now, if I'm playing Limbo with another Limbo player, then it just means going through the nartas until he's finished the mission for me. 

If you played Old Limbo a lot, then you'd know Cataclysm is his most powerful tool. On its own, yeah its underwhelming. But, with the right know-how and expertise, it was(and still is) and incredible tool for creating kill-zones. It's the most powerful ability in the game, right now, and while that's great, it just leaves everything else in the dust.

[.Murk.]

2 hours ago, ChameleonBro said:

It can work against corpus and infested but not armored enemies which is something I noticed. Honestly though when you build for nuking you lose the rest of Limbos potential which for me is a good enough trade off, Limbo ain't the only one who can clear maps of enemies (not armored ones though) *cough* sound quake *cough*

yeah but with a few cp auras he can easily shred insta kill armored targets and even without hes like some sorta super permanent viral proc to them. Even one cp aura is pretty game changing.

and sound quake leaves banshee really vulnerable and has high(ish) energy cost and a ramp up time for heavy damage.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Murkar