[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[-NEP-hypernepmension]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Well, I never used Hysteria as a killing ability. I've never treated is as one because it gimps you by locking your weapons. My weapons have always been stronger. I've always used it to protect myself from sortie bosses like Keyla's Orbital Strikes or when Sargus Ruk blows the tileset. Then I turn it off and use my weapons.

If you're treating it as a killing ability then, sure, dude, it won't scale for killing but it'll always protect you and deflect damage no matter how high that damage is because you're invincible.

 

Your example has nothing to do with scaling, i hope you know that.

[Skaleek]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Invincibility is infinite scaling because it doesn't matter what level the enemy is, its not gonna hurt Valkyr. Same with Radial Disarm. You can have an enemy that's level 20 or level 9000, they will lose their weapon when they're hit by it.

Edit: Also remembered Hydroid's Undertow. That'll drown most anything. CC has always been best scaling abilities in game. And then there's Wukong's Defy. Doesn't matter how much damage he receives, that ability will always revive him.

Okay, the discussion is about offensive scaling. Does that help clarify? Invincibility doesnt scale, theres no curve, or drop off, its just a flat line. Hysteria's offensive capability does effectively drop off, however. Unlike the other abilities mentioned in this thread. and Yes, if frost globes throw does damage based on an enemies current health, that is an example of infinite scaling.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I just realized Octavia hasn't been mentioned either yet. Her 1 scales in damage infinitely. And her 2 will lock down enemies no matter how high their level is.

[Skaleek]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I just realized Octavia hasn't been mentioned either yet. Her 1 scales in damage infinitely. And her 2 will lock down enemies no matter how high their level is.

Mallet scales, yep. CC doesnt scale, because it effectively has 0 killing speed to begin with. It's a constant. Similar to invincibility.

An interesting question would be does covert lethality scale? At first glance you'd assume its a constant as it always kills the mob outright. The answer is actually yes it does scale, because it technically does more damage the higher the mob level is, in that it does 100% of their health and shields.

But anyways, way off OP's topic, apologies.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Skaleek

[.Murk.]

Okay so its not just the scaling it's that it also covers 40m, is 10% of all enemies health affected added up and then this sum is dealt to all enemies in range, kills with this ability give limbo energy, 2 second cast that will only leave him vulnerable for a fraction of a second when used while rifted and dashing back to rift after completion.

So basically if limbo moves around or waits for more enemies in between casts he can practically keep this up forever with the exception of heavy armored targets but even then if the enemies have their armor stripped via corrosive projection or mags polarize it will insta kill all reguardless of level (ie level 99999999) in a single cast

Edited April 6, 2017 by Murkar

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, Murkar said:

Okay so its not just the scaling it's that it also covers 40m, is 10% of all enemies health affected added up and then this sum is dealt to all enemies in range, kills with this ability give limbo energy, 2 second cast that will only leave him vulnerable for a fraction of a second when used while rifted and dashing back to rift after completion.

So basically if limbo moves around or waits for more enemies in between casts he can practically keep this up forever with the exception of heavy armored targets but even then if the enemies have their armor stripped via corrosive projection or mags polarize it will insta kill all reguardless of level (ie level 99999999) in a single cast

Not untrue of equinox's maim either. Although equinox tends to be much more vulnerable than limbo, although there are ways around that ... *coughnaramoncough*

[.Murk.]

7 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

Not untrue of equinox's maim either. Although equinox tends to be much more vulnerable than limbo, although there are ways around that ... *coughnaramoncough*

There is at least a build up process its not instant, and like you said vulnerability; it is very common to get hit with stray bullets or AOEs in high level content even if you are invisible especially when you have to get in melee range of enemies to cloak. Also equinox does not get energy from kills and unless there is some form of energy regen you will run out.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Murkar

[Skaleek]

4 minutes ago, Murkar said:

There is at least a build up process, and like you said vulnerability; it is very common to get hit with stray bullets or AOEs in high level content even if you are invisible especially when you have to get in melee range of enemies to cloak. Also equinox does not get energy from kills and unless there is some form of energy regen you will run out.

Arcane energize and vacuum has made it so I've never had a problem maintaining a full energy pool on maim equinox... but energy regen in WF is a whole other can of worms. I will admit i die a lot before naramon comes up in sorties though. Especially against grineer.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Skaleek

[Dragazer]

48 minutes ago, Callback said:

Apparently he got a rework while I was away and now has a stasis time stop.  Great in theory, nice defensive ability to hold everything off, but in practice it forces HUGE numbers of actors into a single room, more than was ever intended to be able to make it there alive at once, and TANKS framerates of everyone involved.  I'm on a GTX 1080 and I dipped under 40 during yesterday's sortie mobile defense, from a typical 90-100 even during heavy firefights.  I don't know if PS4 has inherited this ability yet, but if it is allowed to go through it is going to MURDER their systems.  Something has to be done to optimize performance around this ability.

 

Please include something to help alleviate this.  Simplify the physics involved, maybe include a hidden "morale" stat for each tile that decreases with enemies in stasis and deters others from entering?  Something to prevent the frame-tanking chaos of this new ability.

Might be something on your system, I ran that mission fine yesterday as Limbo with my GTX 750 ti at maxed settings 1080p constant 60fps

Edited April 6, 2017 by Dragazer

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

1 minute ago, Murkar said:

There is at least a build up process, and like you said vulnerability; it is very common to get hit with stray bullets or AOEs in high level content even if you are invisible especially when you have to get in melee range of enemies to cloak. Also equinox does not get energy from kills and unless there is some form of energy regen you will run out.

I thought that was stealth nerfed that Limbo no longer gets 10 energy for enemies killed by Cataclysm's collapse. You still get it if the enemy dies by weapons or something else, though.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Because we can't have nice things without other people wanting to ruin our fun?

[.Murk.]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I thought that was stealth nerfed that Limbo no longer gets 10 energy for enemies killed by Cataclysm's collapse. You still get it if the enemy dies by weapons or something else, though.

Well tested it yesterday after update and it still works for me

Also even if this wasn't true you can have vacuum hold your items(ie energy) while rifted until you leave the rift as well as getting energy regen just from being rifted.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Murkar

[.Murk.]

let me put it this way... I spent 90% of a match dancing and ended up with ~70% of damage and kills.

never fired a bullet or used melee.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Murkar

[PsiWarp]

Oh yay the thread is pinned again. No guarantee on changes yet but at least the feedback is important and still being received.

Really, really hoping you guys would address the lack of information for other players that encounter Limbo and what to do/expect when moved into the Rift. Tips for the Rift like Kuva Siphon and Transference popup banner (with brief instructions on the hotkeys to use) would go a long way to making Limbo a less confusing and more helpful addition to any team, be it public or organized games.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

2 hours ago, LightningAWG said:

Can someone explain me why people want his 4th ability to get nerfed because it scales? I am pretty sure that about 99% of the community aren´t even playing high level where this damage outperforms their weapons.

I just realized. I don't think people want it nerfed cause it scales. I think people want it nerfed cause he spams it. And part of why he can spam it is because Limbo can regenerate his energy naturally. Maybe if he lost 10 energy for each enemy killed by Cataclysm's collapse instead of gaining 10 energy, people won't spam it as much.

Dunno. Just throwing ideas here.

[(PSN)psycofang]

-give it an innately high cost

-lose the energy return on collapse

-make it 1% hp scaling per second up to a max of 10% per enemy in the rift.

[-CM-NineFingers]

I think most users would like to have a warning when they are in a cataclysm. Can't a counter be placed at the left of the health bar, just stating that you're currently in the rift? That would solve many problems when using him with pugs.

Edited April 6, 2017 by -CM-Haardrale
corrected a typo

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

-give it an innately high cost

-lose the energy return on collapse

-make it 1% hp scaling per second up to a max of 10% per enemy in the rift.

Lets say make the damage on collapse starts at 5% base and with Power Strength, it goes up. So if you have 200% Power Strength, you can push it up to 10%.

When the collapse kills an enemy with this effect, Limbo loses 10 energy. So if he kills like 20 enemies with the collapse, he loses 200 energy and that's on top of the 100 energy he used to put Cataclysm up. The effect only kills as much enemies as his energy would allow. The values would of course be influenced by Power Efficiency mods. And its not uncommon for most Limbo builds to have like 600 energy anyway.

I mean, he can still gain 10 energy for killing enemies in the rift with his weapons but if its Cataclysm's collapse that kills them, he loses 10 energy instead of gaining it. So this way, the Limbo player need to gather energy in between Limbombs instead of spamming it one after another.

I wouldn't mind that. That sounds like a play style where Limbo is powering up between nukes.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[Ditto132]

29 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Oh yay the thread is pinned again. No guarantee on changes yet but at least the feedback is important and still being received.

Really, really hoping you guys would address the lack of information for other players that encounter Limbo and what to do/expect when moved into the Rift. Tips for the Rift like Kuva Siphon and Transference popup banner (with brief instructions on the hotkeys to use) would go a long way to making Limbo a less confusing and more helpful addition to any team, be it public or organized games.

Personally, I find the tips/hints popup banner to be irritating and disruptive.
Previously when playing in public games, I would ask if they know about the Rift mechanic. I would explain to them if time allow or avoid using it as much as possible.

As the Rift mechanic is considered quite complex, those tips/hints banner wouldn't be sufficient.
What I feel that DE should do is to come up with ways of filtering players of different tier, or Mastery Rank for match-making.
This is to prevent issues such as new players getting confused and avoid spoilers from quest related content and mechanic.
Quest related spoilers:

Spoiler

• New player seeing human coming out of the frame
• hovering human when using focus
• transference mechanic and gameplay introduced from quest
• Rift mechanic from Limbo quest

It is much better to prevent players that yet to reach the required knowledge and content, from participating. Just like how some quests and Sortie require pre-requisite.
This would prevent those players from becoming confused, overhelmed and feel disrupted by the veteran players.
The veteran players would also need not worry about inexperienced players ruining the mission such as a Spy mission when alarm is triggered, ending up leaving and resorting the soloing. Turning the game as good as Single player game when not playing with friends.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I understand people don't like Limbo spamming his Cataclysm. I'd like to make some suggestion changes just to give it kind of like more build up so Limbo doesn't spam it all the time but doesn't really change its effectiveness either.

Just limit his energy regeneration.

When Cataclysm's collapse kills enemies, Limbo loses 10 energy for ech killed enemy. So if he kills like 20 enemies with the collapse, he loses 200 energy and that's on top of the 100 energy he used to put Cataclysm up. The effect only kills as much enemies as his energy would allow. The values would of course be influenced by Power Efficiency mods. And its not uncommon for most Limbo builds to have like 600 energy anyway.

I mean, he can still gain 10 energy for killing enemies in the rift with his weapons but if its Cataclysm's collapse that kills them, he loses 10 energy instead of gaining it. So this way, the Limbo player needs to gather energy in between Limbombs instead of spamming it one after another.

I wouldn't mind that. That sounds like a play style where Limbo is powering up between nukes.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[(PSN)scinut71]

What about the Limbo players that don't have Primed Flow? A maxed Flow only gives a 450 energy pool. Add Endurance Drift and the energy pool is 473.

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)scinut71

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Because we can't have nice things without other people wanting to ruin our fun?

[Buzkyl]

I think people have more a greater issue with the cataclysm spam being used to wipe enemies off the map, than cataclysm being able to kill effectively. One is the abuse of another.

 

Simple chage: Make cataclsym explosion damage scale with the amount of time it's being open starting at 1% of enemy damage and scale up to a cap of 10%. Now Limbo has to keep it open for a longer period of time to get the most out of it's damage.

[Pro3Display]

just make enemies take [1]% damage per second while in the rift and remove all other damage from cataclysm/banish

Edited April 6, 2017 by Pro3Display

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

17 minutes ago, Pro3Display said:

just make enemies take [1]% damage per second while in the rift and remove all other damage from cataclysm/banish

Do you have any idea how strong that is? Limbo literally doesn't need to move and he can kill level 9000 squads in 100 seconds.