[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Ozent]

1 minute ago, Music4Therapy said:

What is your opinion on the changes I proposed at the bottom?

Limbo gets countered by ancients in the middle of groups. Limbo IS essentially immortal in the rift, but you cant hack colsoles, even in cata. Makes you kind of useless for rescue without a precision cata or manually banishing everything. About the slash procs, stasis stops all time indefinitely for enemies and projectiles, but since the frame and melee are still in real time, this makes sense(?). How 'bout covert lethality?

[Music4Therapy]

1 minute ago, Ozent said:

Limbo gets countered by ancients in the middle of groups. Limbo IS essentially immortal in the rift, but you cant hack colsoles, even in cata. Makes you kind of useless for rescue without a precision cata or manually banishing everything. About the slash procs, stasis stops all time indefinitely for enemies and projectiles, but since the frame and melee are still in real time, this makes sense(?). How 'bout covert lethality?

His Rift Surge banishes everything back into the rift once your Cata ends. This allows you to cast a wide range Cata, cast Rift Surge, then end Cata prematurely. This results in all enemies that were in the radius of the Cata and within Banish range to remain in the rift when you are out of it.

While he can't abuse Covert Lethality, his 4 allows him to essentially blow up all stragglers leaving the more difficult enemies to be finished off with melee without fear of retaliation, the damage from infinitely long status effects adds up quickly. Even without Cata damage, he would still be an a great spot with infinitely lasting status effects combined with his raw defensive potential and CC.

Also, as far as ancients go, they are the reason why Limbo runs into issues vs the Corrupted. Ancients + multiple nullifiers = sticky situation. However, vs the infested faction, he still lasts forever so long as he stays out of range of Venomous Eximus aura. Keep an eye out for them and dispatch of ancients when they appear and everything else is open to getting 1 shot KO'd since the infested travel in large packs.

[Sakatchi]

29 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

I am a Limbo player and am abusing the hell out of his broken state. I am also capable of acknowledging that he is broken.

No nuking press-4-to-win frame has ever had anywhere near Limbo's defensive capabilities, and balance issues should be addressed on a per frame basis in accordance with their kit. For example, if Limbo was not capable of defending objectives so well and his main purpose was offense like old-Saryn I wouldn't have as much of an issue.

Finally, the rest of your post is so riddled with contradictions such as "he doesn't have 'infinite scaling defenses' hes straight up immune in the rift" and idiotic statements such as "Speaking of armor, Limbo scales off of health and shields, so he does in fact have a counter, and a very large one." (haven't you ever heard of 4xCP? Or the fact his stasis causes his finisher-damage slash procs to last infinitely?) frankly makes me question your game knowledge and will refrain from further conversation with you if more false, contradictory statements are made.

Actually its not contradictory, since you need to get out of the rift to put people into it, and you have about 268 hp, and 65 armor outside of a rift if you're built as a 4 spammer.

Even if you use a vitality you will still have paper defenses, which will get you killed.

Do you also know how difficult it can be to actually get random people to run 4xcp? No one likes to be told how to play, and there will always be one cat, or rhino that refuses to drop the steel charge.

And something tells me you're the type to not read posts because you need to be right, so have fun with that I guess.

[low1991]

49 minutes ago, Pro3Display said:

and i don't want warframe to turn into a rotten mummy

Too late, it's already is. 

Otw. what happen to the idea where #1 remains as banish foe/ally to&bk rift. #2 = #2 combine with #3. A new #3 and #4 remains. What happen to this suggestion for Limbo' re-work?

[Music4Therapy]

Just now, Sakatchi said:

Actually its not contradictory, since you need to get out of the rift to put people into it, and you have about 268 hp, and 65 armor outside of a rift if you're built as a 4 spammer.

Even if you use a vitality you will still have paper defenses, which will get you killed.

Do you also know how difficult it can be to actually get random people to run 4xcp? No one likes to be told how to play, and there will always be one cat, or rhino that refuses to drop the steel charge.

And something tells me you're the type to not read posts because you need to be right, so have fun with that I guess.

4xCP isn't the only way he beats armor. His slash procs last forever on targets in stasis.

As far as staying alive goes and spam cata builds, I run a 115% dur, 170% eff, 40% str, 235% rng, Quick Thinking, Natural Talent, and Coactive Drift. Quick Thinking plus his absurd energy regen plus Zenurik keeps me topped up on energy even when spamming Cata. That said, survivability isn't an issue even then because he is capable of avoiding being hit in the first place by pre-emptively casting his stasis, casting cata, using his rift surge before his cata ends so enemies stay in the rift when your cata ends, ending cata yourself then refreshing his stasis, then casting another cata. Using this method, you can remain infinitely invincible vs all factions but the Corpus and corrupted, and the Corpus can be easily beaten with proper positioning.

[Darkuhn]

23 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Its not just getting in and out of the rift, its the rift mechanics in general that's not user friendly due to the lack any in game codex about it. I remember players using Limbo for the first time (including warframe youtubers) and they would banish an enemy and try to shoot it. Then they'd go, "Wtf? why can't I hit it? This warframe sucks!"

With Limbo's rework, he needs a tutorial. You can go in the rift and try to banish something and it'll say "invalid target" and its not gonna explain why. You try to press his 3 and it says "no target in range" and its not gonna tell you why.

I know people can go into forums or check the wiki but game design 101 dictates if your game is not pick up and play, there's something wrong with your design. You need a tutorial.

maybe a look in the wiki would enlighten those "new" player

the Wiki is an integral source of information on ANY Frame, if you play a new one without informing yourself first its your problem.

I recommend an excessive use of the Wiki to each player I introduced to the game.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Darkuhn

[Pro3Display]

29 minutes ago, low1991 said:

Too late, it's already is. 

Otw. what happen to the idea where #1 remains as banish foe/ally to&bk rift. #2 = #2 combine with #3. A new #3 and #4 remains. What happen to this suggestion for Limbo' re-work?

i don't think i quite understood which abilities are which

[D3AD.3ND]

A lot of the players have been saying that cataclysm has "infinite scaling". The damage scales off of the amount of enemies inside the rift, But for it to scale infinitely shouldn't the cataclysm itself hold infinite amount of enemies? How can something have infinite scaling with finite enemies in the rift?

Edited April 7, 2017 by D3AD.3ND

[ashrah]

now wen is limbo finaly good would be cool to make other frames good too

[chaotea]

2 hours ago, Xekrin said:

LOL, yeah it works fine but whats really fun is having to roll 5 times in less than a minute while standing actually trying to shoot a group or melee attacking.  So great.

Of course this is all moot because its rare now to see a limbo using his 1st ability, its just 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4.

1st ability doesnt target players anymore though, is just the passive and 4th, and you cant roll out of 4th.

[chaotea]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Another good way to do it is to let allies damage enemies in the rift. Maybe for 50% weapon damage what scales with strenght or something.

Seems dodgy still, as your invincable while in the rift. Probably better to make it so allies arnt effected by the 1st ability.

[Buzkyl]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

It will become useless.

DE is not known for precise tweakings, they will change in a way that limbo will be put back to the heap of useless stuff we have.

But if you think that wouldnt happen then tell me when was the last time you seen the telos boltace or the tonkor ingame (used by people who know about the nerfs).

Yes because balancing weapons is the same as balancing warframes

That was obvious sarcasm.

A better comparison wold be Nidus, who after "nerfing" ravenous and his passive being affected by nullifers he is still one of the best frames for high level and endless missions. 

[tylertyrant]

if you guys wanting nerf cant stand limbo then just leave squad do solo or ask for a tigris prime nerf lul, limbo is finally appealing to the masses after being the least played warframe for like years? now you guys want nerf lol thats $&*&*#(%&.

[(PSN)thexxo]

(As you can see I'm a ps4 player so can't play with the new Limbo and I know the change only on paper but I'm interested in the new Limbo because I like the stasis ability)

Why not keep the scaling but limit it in another way? DE can nerf the 10% to 5% and apply individually on every enemy so you can't kill enemies in few cast  or maybe it will scale from 0,5% up to max 10% per enemy in the cataclysm but it will count only health.

Maybe these are difficult change for developper, I've none experience in develop programs...

(I'm sorry if some phrases are bad written but english is not my native language.)

[Clonmac]

There is a really easy simple solution for this. Just make Cataclysm do its full 10% damage per enemy after it collapses naturally. If it is cancelled early, then it will only do a percentage of that 10%/enemy based on how long it was up. If it was up for 50% of its full duration, then it will deal 5% damage per enemy.

The mechanics that are already a part of Cataclysm would then prevent it from being abused as a nuke. Since you need at least 10 enemies in the rift to being able to kill anything, then you need a larger range on it to capture those enemies. If you go a short duration so that it collapses sooner, then it will shrink on you faster making it harder to retain those enemies in the sphere. If you go for longer duration, then you won't be able to spam it for damage.

It will still do damage when you end it prematurely, but it won't be an insta-kill nuke since it will only deal minor damage per enemy in its early stages. But, if you managed to keep it up for its full duration and use stasis to "pin" enemies inside the sphere, then when it collapses naturally it will be a good way to "finish" off all the enemies you controlled.

I think that will have a good synergy mechanic to it and also prevent abuse.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Clonmac

[Buzkyl]

1 hour ago, Darkuhn said:

maybe a look in the wiki would enlighten those "new" player

the Wiki is an integral source of information on ANY Frame, if you play a new one without informing yourself first its your problem.

I recommend an excessive use of the Wiki to each player I introduced to the game.

The Wiki is also a 3rd party and is basically a crutch at this point. Yes players should go to the wiki but that is not an excuse for the game's lack of direction or guidance. If i want, i can go max duration go to a low level area and banish new players, 90% will have no idea what just happened and will likely be very upset see as they can't interact with enemies or the world anymore

"What did you do?"  

"Use the wiki lol"

But that's just being a troll however that is a very possible reality because due to how separate the rift is from the game it is very easy to be confused if you're not experienced using limbo or playing with one.

[Demon.King]

11 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

There is a really easy simple solution for this. Just make Cataclysm do its full 10% damage per enemy after it collapses naturally. If it is cancelled early, then it will only do a percentage of that 10%/enemy based on how long it was up. If it was up for 50% of its full duration, then it will deal 5% damage per enemy.

The mechanics that are already a part of Cataclysm would then prevent it from being abused as a nuke. Since you need at least 10 enemies in the rift to being able to kill anything, then you need a larger range on it to capture those enemies. If you go a short duration so that it collapses sooner, then it will shrink on you faster making it harder to retain those enemies in the sphere. If you go for longer duration, then you won't be able to spam it for damage.

It will still do damage when you end it prematurely, but it won't be an insta-kill nuke since it will only deal minor damage per enemy in its early stages. But, if you managed to keep it up for its full duration and use stasis to "pin" enemies inside the sphere, then when it collapses naturally it will be a good way to "finish" off all the enemies you controlled.

I think that will have a good synergy mechanic to it and also prevent abuse.

This is a good idea, however it would be best to make the ability build up damage over time (ex: 0.5% per second, unaffected by duration mods, capped at 10% for the sake of balance)(damage dealt when cataclysm collapses), so that negative duration limbo does not become a thing.

It would make spamming useless but at the same time doesn't punish players who go for duration.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Demon.King

[Clonmac]

5 minutes ago, Demon.King said:

This is a good idea, however it would be best to make the ability build up damage over time (ex: 0.5% per second, unnaffected by duration mods)(damage dealt when cataclysim collapses), so that negative duration limbo does not become a thing.

That still wouldn't lead to abuse. If you go negative duration, then it is going to cost you a lot more energy to cast Cataclysm. It will also cause Cataclysm to shrink faster and even a shorter duration on Cataclysm will still take about 10 seconds or so for it to collapse naturally.

If you just use Transient Fortitude, then its full duration will still be around 22 seconds or so. Since it doesn't scale with Power Strength, that would really be a useless mod to use and hamper his other abilities.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Clonmac

[Demon.King]

16 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

That still wouldn't lead to abuse. If you go negative duration, then it is going to cost you a lot more energy to cast Cataclysm. It will also cause Cataclysm to shrink faster and even a shorter duration on Cataclysm will still take about 10 seconds or so for it to collapse naturally.

If you just use Transient Fortitude, then its full duration will still be around 22 seconds or so. Since it doesn't scale with Power Strength, that would really be a useless mod to use and hamper his other abilities.

Edited my original post to clarify.

 

Edit:

The minimum duration one currently can reach is 15%, that would be 4.5 seconds cataclysm, still somewhat spammable if you want to kill units at the centre.

That's why i suggested the damage buildup over time.

It would avoid negative duration builds, makes spamming useless, would not punish/rewards duration builds, and still allows a localised scaling nuke with a buildup.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Demon.King

[V0ltHunter]

On the last sortie mission, ALAD V Assassination, I was playing as Limbo and while I was in the rift, i went into a nullifying bubble and to my surprise I wasn't thrown back to the material plane. I stayed in the rift while being inside the bubble. I'm 90% sure this is not intended. 

[Demon.King]

It would be best to make the ability build up damage over time (ex: 0.5% per second, unaffected by duration mods, maybe capped at 10% for the sake of balance, would reach 10% after 20 seconds)(damage dealt when cataclysm collapses), so that negative duration limbo does not become a thing (The minimum duration one currently can reach is 15%, that would be 4.5 seconds cataclysm, still somewhat spammable if you want to kill units at the centre.)

That's why I suggest the damage buildup over time.

It would avoid negative duration builds, makes spamming useless, would not punish/rewards duration builds, and still allows a localised scaling nuke with a buildup.

Pretty much hits all complaints on cataclysm.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Demon.King

[LuckyCharm]

>.> or you could make it 10% max hp damage, instead of damage per enemy in it, and then make THAT number scale. So limbo would have to cast it 10x at 100% , 5x at 200% power etc. It's still a lot of casts so the number could be tweaked, it'd still scale infinately, but it wouldn't be a oneshot kill nuke that it is currently. 

And that means as other abilities ramp down in effectiveness, limbo would still be usefull, just not as oppressive as he is in early levels. 

[Clonmac]

Sorry, I had it backwords on the duration/efficiency side of things, but here are some numbers as far as shorter durations go based on this concept:

Normal Cataclysm (Cost 100 energy):

• 10 seconds in will deal ~3% damage per enemy = ~33 enemes inside for a kill
• 15 seconds in will deal 5% damage per enemy = 20 enemies inside for a kill
• 30 seconds in will deal full 10% damage per enemy = 10 enemies inside for a kill

Starting radius = 16 meters
Final radius = 5 meters

Shorter Duration Cataclysm with Fleeting Expertise (40 energy):

• 4 seconds in will deal ~3% damage per enemy = ~33 enemes inside for a kill
• 6 seconds in will deal 5% damage per enemy = 20 enemies inside for a kill
• 12 seconds in will deal full 10% damage per enemy = 10 enemies inside for a kill

Starting Radius = 16 meters
Final Radius = 5 meters
 

You could add in some range without effecting the other numbers at all (Stretch or Overextended). Either way I don't think any of the scenarios above would lead to abuse and cutting down duration would also hamper his other abilities a lot. None of those numbers are spammable or provide a ton of nuke power over short durations. I think the big problem people have with it isn't that it can kill enemies based on scaling but that it can kill enemies immediately based on scaling. So what ends up happening is a Limbo will pop up Cataclysm and remove it immediately essentially killing everything in a large radius. Forcing a Limbo to use Cataclysm to its full duration (even with a shortened duration) will force Limbo to leave it up and let it collapse naturally.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Clonmac

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, chaotea said:

Seems dodgy still, as your invincable while in the rift. Probably better to make it so allies arnt effected by the 1st ability.

Thats not good either as banish is either used to take out an enemy or to save someone from immient death.

Okay how about a buff? If you got banished you do not go in the rift until you take atleast 25% damage to your current health (you are instantly rifted if you are below 20% of your max health). While the buff is on you can damage enemies in the rift and they can damage you too, but they swithc planes with you if the buff procs.

 

OR

 

Banish works the same way as currently, with the addition that for 50% of the duration enemies and players caught in it still can deal damage on any plane.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

Yes because balancing weapons is the same as balancing warframes

That was obvious sarcasm.

A better comparison wold be Nidus, who after "nerfing" ravenous and his passive being affected by nullifers he is still one of the best frames for high level and endless missions. 

After the nerf he is still the best on any non corpus endless mission because he has scaling damage. Also why that is indeed a nerf it was not a horrible one (thought the logic on how the corpus dispells biological changes is confusing).

A better comprasion would be Valkyr who got her 4 nerfed and while i agree with the increased energy consuption the others werent necesseary.