[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Newnight]

Really love the rework DE. good job!

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Hi. I'd like to suggest some adjustments to Limbo in the hopes of making him less of a troll.

Passive 1 - Please adjust the rift tear's duration from 5 seconds to 15 seconds but make it so that Limbo cannot create another rift tear if there is still one on screen. This reduces the amount of rift tears that squad mates can accidentally fall into.

Passive 2 - Please make it so that Limbo can only gain 10 energy from enemies killed in the rift by his weapons. If he kills enemies with his abilities (like Cataclysm) he gets no energy back.

Banish - Please make it so you cannot use Banish on squad mates. You can still use them on npcs like hostages or operatives and even specters but not on squad mates. Other players will use the rift tears now to go into the rift if they choose.

Stasis - Please incorporate a "counter-troll" mechanic. If the 300 bullet cap is reached, the ability deactivates and Limbo cannot reactivate Stasis for 30 seconds. This makes it so that Limbo players trolling other players with this ability can be punished by being counter trolled by other players. Be mindful of your team mates. You still control the rift. Don't force your rift on others if you don't want them to troll you.

Rift Surge - Please make it so that the Radial Banish effect can be triggered by 2 different conditions; one is upon killing an enemy in the rift and second is kicking them out of the rift.

Cataclysm - Please make it so that when Cataclysm is collapsed, it deals 5% of the total health and shields of all enemies in the bubble as damage and make it scale with Power Strength so at 200% Power Strength, it deals 10% instead of 5%. This makes it so players will mod Limbo accordingly to be either a high duration CC or a high damage DPS but not both.

Oh and make it so you can hack consoles in Cataclysm so Limbo players cannot troll other players intentionally or by accident when someone's hacking a spy vault or alarm or something.

Thank you.

Edited April 9, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[kaviji]

great rework!

In fact, its so good, there is no reason to play any frame besides Limbo now.

On demand invincibility? check

massive, infinitely scaling AOE nukes? check

hard CC? check

team utility with energy regen AND heals with the augment? check

oh, not a team player? well then, ability to endlessly troll your team? check

 

I hate Limbo. I hate that another player can dictate the arena within which i have to play the game, or all together force me to play around the whim of their abilities.  I hate that DE nerfed some of the communities favorite weapons in large part because of "visual cancer" and "impacting other players gameplay enjoyment" and then released a frame that is all of that AND S tier strong.

That said, I just installed a potato on him and forma-ed him. Cause fk it, if you cant beat um, join um, right?

 

 

Edited April 9, 2017 by kaviji

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

21 hours ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

Tell that to all those Limbo 'players' (they are just riding the hype) that use Cataclysm for exactly 0.3 seconds to kill absolutely everything around them. The result: no one does absolutely nothing except Limbo pushing a key.

Hell, I am not even worried, there is no way this will live for long.

I would reach out to them if I could because trust me, Limbo has been my main since I started Warframe. 

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

16 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

In all my time playing, I've only said 2 frames are OP and need changed: Old black crit Volt, and this current iteration of Limbo. Both have similar issues, they can't die when played well and have insane offensive potential.

That said, keep salty Mr.2k hours because there is no way this is sticking around.

Lmao aye alright cool. Not trying to start a battle man. Mr. 2K hours lmao that's actually kinda catchy.

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

15 hours ago, Dragazer said:

That needs to be fixed than Warframe abilties should not be able to damage null bubbles

Any frame can use Naramon and be good

Lol tell that to Hydroid on his 1 and Excalibur with Exalted Blade.

[DinendalMinyatur]

 

41 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Stasis - Please incorporate a "counter-troll" mechanic. If the 300 bullet cap is reached, the ability deactivates and Limbo cannot reactivate Stasis for 30 seconds. This makes it so that Limbo players trolling other players with this ability can be punished by being counter trolled by other players. Be mindful of your team mates. You still control the rift. Don't force your rift on others if you don't want them to troll you.

Nope just nope

 All it will take just one Zarr Alt-Fire to get trolled by your teammates. One Zarr shot is enough to deactivate ability.

Although I agree with your other suggestions.

11 hours ago, low1991 said:

Limbo Feedback:

#2 Stasis is practicable, but should only be applied to range projectile. Allowing enemies to move around & melee tennos.

So it will be just another Radial Disarm? We already have the same ability on another frame.

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

I hate how people abuse things with a frame I love playing as so much.......it yields so much community cancer. Why can't people just play legit? Limbo shouldn't have to be nerfed. People need to play fair. It's a cooperative game. Work with the people instead of trying to plague them.

[-Temp0-]

On 07.04.2017 at 6:43 AM, -N7-Leonhart said:

Sure you can make it one shoot all of them, with 3 or 4 CP auras. And either way, if you don't feel like playing in a full squad of CP, then you can always go nuke some of the un-armored factions. Just like Mag, only a lot worse.

In other words with "teamwork".

How broken yeah.

I mean even leaving behind the fact that you won't be able to compel random people to actually stay in the void long enough for it to reach lv 140 to begin with as there's no rewards for endless missions now.

Those kind of discussions are literally "yes but". We all know that the only place 99% of people will use him will be Bere even if they will use him. Since truth be told, anyone literally can be a dps there even Mirage, Mag and Rhino. So he's literally just one of many dps frames not just the only one.

But hey gotta appreciate that new can opener tho.

Edited April 9, 2017 by -Temp0-

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Stasis - Please incorporate a "counter-troll" mechanic. If the 300 bullet cap is reached, the ability deactivates and Limbo cannot reactivate Stasis for 30 seconds. This makes it so that Limbo players trolling other players with this ability can be punished by being counter trolled by other players. Be mindful of your team mates. You still control the rift. Don't force your rift on others if you don't want them to troll you.

 

So basically this goes under the assumption that anytime limbo uses stasis hes trolling? Because thats exactly what this does is render limbos only way to not get shredded in the rift vs high level targets moot since ol boy can walk into a rift tear because he has something against limbos and fire his Zarr.

 

What im starting to want is anyone that isnt that specific limbo or another consenting limbo to not even be involved with the rift.

 

When i cast cataclysm no one except me and the objective gets protected, no one but me and other limbos get the 2 energy/s, no one but me a consenting limbo and an npc can be placed into the rift.

 

If you step inside cataclysm as any other warframe you are not counted as inside the rift your bullets only hurt things outside the rift and even if your in Catas radius enemies outside the rift can still kill you.

 

Tie stasis enemy cap to power strength

Tie hp scaling cata to power strength

Rift torrent bonus is already tied to power strength

Remove rift tears so no one can enter

Remove Haven augment and make it a high stun, open to finisher X damage modified bi-plane single target banish augment instead.

Put a range cap on cataclysm and stop it from shrinking or invert it so it grows to a specified cap i.e. over extended doesnt go past 45% bonus range on cata but increases everything else.

 

Cataclysmic continuum isnt a pointless mod now

Ranged Limbo are kept in check

Power strength limbos are kept in check

Limbo cannot banish anyone on purpose or by accident

Limbo cannot heal them as a result

New aug gives back old banish plus a bonus

Rift torrent builds are still large enough but not encroaching

Limbo is still strong, king of the rift and all the other not limbos are happy.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[PsiWarp]

I'll just echo what I said on the wiki about how to reduce Limbo's negative influences on allies:

1. Banish & Rift Walk portals: their player buff (uniformly called Banish) should grant ally players temporary Rift Walk capability. Ally players can roll or backflip to toggle material or Rift plane, while the Banish buff will not be cancel (timer keeps counting down).
   • However, because they are not Limbo and their abilities are not balanced with Rift use in mind (on-demand invulnerability, energy regen, etc), make sure they can only switch a limited number of times before Banish automatically ends. Adding a number of "charges" at the top-right of the buff icon would be a good indicator.
2. Recasts: casting Banish again on banished allies should not switch their plane. It's really disorienting and disruptive to the other player who was guns ablazing a second earlier only to find he's dealing no damage. Imagine this being repeatedly done to him. Combine this change with #1 above to give control back to the ally players, who can decide for themselves which plane they want to fight in, rather than have Limbo rudely decide for them.
   • Also, Banish should not be able to affect other Limbo players. Rift Walk is vital to Limbo's survivability, so being affected by other Limbos' Banish is just an unnecessary annoyance and a potentially lethal consequence.
3. Stasis: ally and enemy projectiles should slow to a crawl over a second or two, then freeze in time. This allows rift-bound ranged enemies to actually stand any chance at being able to damage players (a very very small chance), while allowing ally players to unload their guns on enemies at close range and be able to damage Rift-bound enemies with those weapons' gunfire and projectiles in flight.

As for other sensitive balance issues with the rework, there are plenty of feedback on those. You guys (devs) did well to make life in the Rift a bit easier for us, allowing loot and datamasses to be picked up inside Cataclysm. That reduced the annoyance people feel toward Limbo a bit. Plus, the rework is very impressive and made me a happy Tenno.

But now, please address the new issues that arose with the rework, because quite frankly it's not fun having to deal with all that. Perhaps try it out internally for yourselves, here are some of the more apparent problems:

• Have a Limbo continuously roll and make portals everywhere.
• Banish and unbanish players and enemies frequently.
• Keep Stasis up all the time.
• Max Power Range Rift Surge + Cataclysm (press 4, 3, then 4 again). Use this combo to put a whole room full of enemies into the rift and not let other players in (to the rift) to shoot them.
• Force Banish or Cataclysm on players that are hacking/trying to call elevators/attempt to activate Life Support Capsules

There's a lot of grief involved and I implore you to resolve these design flaws. Thanks for your hard work!

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

5 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

 

So basically this goes under the assumption that anytime limbo uses stasis hes trolling? Because thats exactly what this does is render limbos only way to not get shredded in the rift vs high level targets moot since ol boy can walk into a rift tear because he has something against limbos and fire his Zarr.

 

No but Limbo players aren't always aware especially if they only think about themselves. If you keep your cataclysm up, you're inviting players in there. You have to be aware that your power will affect them if they're in your realm. In an organized group, this is okay but in a PUG, you don't want other players in your rift (unless they ask for it.) Comboing Surge with Cataclysm is ideal.

Your rift can accidentally troll other players so its your responsibility to keep other players out of your rift as much as possible. They can't Banish themselves so they can't come into the rift if you don't want them to.

If a Limbo player IS.intentionally trolling other players, my suggestion will allow other players to counter troll Limbo. That's it. If you don't want to get trolled, then don't troll.

Edited April 10, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[(PSN)psycofang]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

No but Limbo players aren't always aware especially if they only think about themselves.

Except everyone thinks about only themself.

 

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

If you keep your cataclysm up, you're inviting players in there.

No my builds cata is moderately sized for a stronger rift torrent build, im not inviting anyone in there, you pretty much have to go out of your way to go inside it.

And preferably speaking i wish mo one but me and npcs/objectives could be rifted, i play limbo solo lately -for the last 3 days tbh- because i dont want people in my rift.

 

A few ppl think its funny to run into my small cata and start shooting off shotgun shots and Zarr like they think im dumb enough to use stasis with people around.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Your rift can accidentally troll other players so its your responsibility to keep other players out of your rift as much as possible.

You cant accidentally troll someone, trolling is done on purpose and my responsibility to keep people out of the rift? So basically never use his 4 in a public setting, no problem i dont do that anyway.

Sucks since because its my responsibility to make sure they never enter the rift they can never kill any if the surged enemies i stopped.

 

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

If a Limbo player IS.intentionally trolling other players, my suggestion will allow other players to counter troll Limbo. That's it.

It doesnt matter if its intentional or accidental or even responsibly used, alot if people have a thing against limbo and giving them a tool to purposefully get him killed is bad. People already troll aug absorb Nyx players by shooting at her absorb on purpose to drain her energy.

Players cannot be trusted with power like that. 

 

Which is why i posted my preferences early up, i dont want other war frames to ever be able to enter the rift, or gain any of its bonuses.

Ever. 

Only that specific Limbo, Npcs and defense objectives.

Edited April 10, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Except everyone thinks about only themself.

 

No my builds cata is moderately sized for a stronger rift torrent build, im not inviting anyone in there, you pretty much have to go out of your way to go inside it.

And preferably speaking i wish mo one but me and npcs/objectives could be rifted, i play limbo solo lately -for the last 3 days tbh- because i dont want people in my rift.

 

A few ppl think its funny to run into my small cata and start shooting off shotgun shots and Zarr like they think im dumb enough to use stasis with people around.

You cant accidentally troll someone, trolling is done on purpose and my responsibility to keep people out of the rift? So basically never use his 4 in a public setting, no problem i dont do that anyway.

Sucks since because its my responsibility to make sure they never enter the rift they can never kill any if the surged enemies i stopped.

 

It doesnt matter if its intentional or accidental or even responsibly used, alot if people have a thing against limbo and giving them a tool to purposefully get him killed is bad. People already troll aug absorb Nyx players by shooting at her absorb on purpose to drain her energy.

Players cannot be trusted with power like that. 

 

Which is why i posted my preferences early up, i dont want other war frames to ever be able to enter the rift, or gain any of its bonuses.

Ever. 

Only that specific Limbo, Npcs and defense objectives.

When the changes hit consoles, we won't need to keep Cataclysm up anymore to maintain high Rift Torrent bonus because of the new Rift Surge. You can have a max range Cataclysm and then mark all the enemies inside the bubble with Surge. it'll only take a second and then collapse your Cataclysm bubble.

This leaves all enemies in the rift without the need for a Cataclysm bubble so all squad mates are out. Its rift management. You couldn't do that before. It was either all in or no one in. Now he can get as many things in the rift asap and kick the ones he doesn't want in there just as fast.

Also if you don't want to use the term "troll" you can use the term "intrusive." Many warframes can do this like Nidus link and Hydroid undertow on the last enemy of a defense wave or Nova worm hole and Loki switch teleport that can drop you over cliffs. They cause more harm than good if used mindlessly.

[Nez-Kal]

On 4/8/2017 at 1:15 PM, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

This is probably the smartest suggestion I've seen. Put some kind of filter on PUG match making. It solves everything.

Mm hmm....Yeeeah......Up until NO ONE wants to be paired up with your favorite frames. Maybe it's your Region, maybe it's the time you play, but if all the players playing suddenly decided, for example, "No Invis Lokis for Void Survival. CCs Only." And you didn't want to play CC, well....you're pretty much F*cked. Because when you go to complain about it:

"Solo or make a Squad. Not so hard."

...Is the only response you're ever going to get. It's not a simple fix all solution, but it's a MAJOR "Guys Only Club" problem one, as people start making lists excluding any and all unpopular and unwanted frames, and those frames, good or bad, get dropped from Public play forever.

[Nez-Kal]

11 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Hi. I'd like to suggest some adjustments to Limbo in the hopes of making him less of a troll.

Passive 1 - Please adjust the rift tear's duration from 5 seconds to 15 seconds but make it so that Limbo cannot create another rift tear if there is still one on screen. This reduces the amount of rift tears that squad mates can accidentally fall into.

Passive 2 - Please make it so that Limbo can only gain 10 energy from enemies killed in the rift by his weapons. If he kills enemies with his abilities (like Cataclysm) he gets no energy back.

Banish - Please make it so you cannot use Banish on squad mates. You can still use them on npcs like hostages or operatives and even specters but not on squad mates. Other players will use the rift tears now to go into the rift if they choose.

Stasis - Please incorporate a "counter-troll" mechanic. If the 300 bullet cap is reached, the ability deactivates and Limbo cannot reactivate Stasis for 30 seconds. This makes it so that Limbo players trolling other players with this ability can be punished by being counter trolled by other players. Be mindful of your team mates. You still control the rift. Don't force your rift on others if you don't want them to troll you.

Rift Surge - Please make it so that the Radial Banish effect can be triggered by 2 different conditions; one is upon killing an enemy in the rift and second is kicking them out of the rift.

Cataclysm - Please make it so that when Cataclysm is collapsed, it deals 5% of the total health and shields of all enemies in the bubble as damage and make it scale with Power Strength so at 200% Power Strength, it deals 10% instead of 5%. This makes it so players will mod Limbo accordingly to be either a high duration CC or a high damage DPS but not both.

Oh and make it so you can hack consoles in Cataclysm so Limbo players cannot troll other players intentionally or by accident when someone's hacking a spy vault or alarm or something.

Thank you.

 

- Passive #1 + Banish: Makes sense. If the new Banish worked the way you wanted, we'd need a longer, less spammed Rift Tear passive, and vise versa. People who wanted in could get in, people who didn't, just run around the tear, or roll through it.

- Stasis: Okay, that's just dumb (sorry) because all it would take is ONE guy on the team with a Soma Prime (Not unlikely to have) to decide "THIS IS WHAT YOU GET! DON'T EVER F*CKING PLAY LIMBO AGAIN!!!" to ruin the game for the Limbo and the other 2 players. Pretty soon anyone and everyone who didn't like Limbo could just equip large magazine size guns and go on daily Limbo Hunts, and after a while, everyone would just stop using Limbo entirely, and the Limbo Trollers would, I don't know, congratulate themselves and their miserable existences.

- Rift Surge: .......Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, I don't even understand the in's and out's of this ability yet. I mostly avoid using it for now on Public Play till I understand the juggle.

- Cataclysm: I feel having it rely on Power Strength and NOT refund Energy on enemies killed in it's collapse is a good way to go. I want to make my Nuke Build, but honestly, right now it just feels.....cheap. (Like, Effort vs Reward, you know. I don't feel like I earned this)

 

I agree with that last point, but make it so that Limbo still can't touch them in the Rift. Would make it fair play, without trolling/oppsies.

 

 

[chaotea]

On 07/04/2017 at 9:54 PM, Xekrin said:

It doesn't? If it was changed I didn't realize, but the day of Limbo Rework release a Limbo just spammed 1 while I was running ahead of him fighting and I got banished (along with a few enemies of course) at least 5 times in a row within a minute.

If that was changed, hurray.

Yea, you cant target allies, but you can get swept up in the aoe around enemies. You cant target escort targets anymore either :(

[ShikiRen]

So, I've played the new Limbo A LOT the last weeks, and while it is extremely fun, there is one thing that I really don't get : WHY don't beam weapons work normally in stasis?! They are not projectiles, they are fast-as-light beams. Not only that, but they way they currently work while under stasis is pretty much "not at all". I've thrown up stasis, banished an enemy, unloaded a whole clip of my synapse into them (the beam looks normal, but nothing happens), then released stasis and...nothing. No damage at all. Not a single point.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Please nerf Limbo before he comes to console. 

I don't want to have to deal with that crap for 2 months.

[-CM-NineFingers]

What about lowering the % of enemy based damage to 3% and tying it to power strength? That would still let limbo nuke, while lowering the efficiency of the cataclysm as ability and making you build for it instead of just building for range and efficiency. I would like this change, since it doesn't forbid limbo to nuke while at the same time lowers heavily the "easyness" of spamming cataclysm and never running out of energy

[Starwake]

Limbo fix 4th idea.

make the bubble grow over time instead of shrinking. Making it less spamable due to a smaller area on start mabe 10 or 15 meters and over time it grows in range mabe a few meters per second alowing for over time to be cancelled for nuke damage.

This would fix the spamming to kill whole map while allowing limbo to nuke small groups and over time do a nuke.

I also have been playing him for a long time and i love the new rework. All his abilities can be used and take time to understand compared to most frames.

His 3rd ability may be confusing but alows enemies to be radial banished when the enemies is banished alowing him to draw enemies arount your target into the rift. I dont understand the "damage mechanic" to it tho. 

Im currently running max duration with some range and some efficiency. And seems that this is a very strong build but very squishy. Like if I mess up im my rotation or tactics im dead.

Ps... can when limbo is dodging/entering the rift and is stationary not move and nake movement basec off direction of motion and shift activation.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Starwake

[Music4Therapy]

This growing instead of shrinking idea that is going around the forums would be a massive nerf to Limbo. Take away the nuke and Limbo is still a top tier frame. We should focus on his potential absurd damage output rather than wrecking the rest of his kit.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[(PSN)psycofang]

-Edit- never mind, i dont care anymore.

Edited April 10, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Music4Therapy]

Just now, (PS4)psycofang said:

How is it a massive nerf to limbo?

It stops its from being spammed- community whining

It quickly grows and stops at a set range then collapses- gives cataclysmic continuum an actual use/ torrent grows more powerful as it spreads/gain more control over stasis/ surge during its spread or as it ends to hold onto everyone in the rift.

Stops instant encroachment on other players and instead grows into a thunder dome -held by duration- or defense bubble.

 

It combats the instantaneous encroaching, mash 4 to nuke and the fact that it shrinks is no longer an annoyance to limbo players.

2 separate issues:

1) Should a frame with the defensive and cc capabilities of Limbo have access to this massive of a nuke? As a Limbo player, his kit is so great there isn't a doubt in my mind that he'd remain top tier even without it. Of all the frames to have this massive of a nuke, why the frame with some of the best defensive and cc capabilities in the game?

2) Due to the small initial radius, it'd be a massive nerf to Limbo's CC capabilities. Right now, he can preemptively cast stasis, use his Cataclysm, then his Rift Surge. With that combo, he can lockdown rooms/objectives which I believe is his purpose. With the small initial radius, it'd take him much longer to accomplish what it is that he is trying to accomplish. Again, Limbo is a CC/Defense frame first and everything else is second, I'd explore ways to mitigate his absurd offensive potential without hurting what it is that makes him unique/desired.

If anything, why not bring old Cataclysm back along with the damage multiplier of his old Rift Surge. Meaning, Cataclysm goes back to its pre-rework form but make it to where every enemy effected by Rift Surge takes X times more damage. The big issue players had with his old 3 was that it was selfish, this would bring that multiplier back but make it squadwide. Instead of having massive damage in the form of a nuke, he'd be able to allow all members of the squad to deal increased damage to Rift Surged enemies.

[Starwake]

30 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

This growing instead of shrinking idea that is going around the forums would be a massive nerf to Limbo. Take away the nuke and Limbo is still a top tier frame. We should focus on his potential absurd damage output rather than wrecking the rest of his kit.

I disagree and agree. Its all in the speed it gets larger and start size and the balance between it. I like how it works now and think the damage scales well and is not supper effective with heavy armor units but by getting rid of trash mobs.

And this would synergize better with the augment mod allowing it to grow even more or stay open longer.

I just thought it would he cool to get a really large bubble over time allowing for duration to help with range rather than needed a max range build helping diverse modding alittle. It would also work alot better with the augment mod alowing it to stay open longer and larger with increased duration. Allowin the range increasing to get more enemies to do more damage.

It would also synergies with abilities well by getting more enemies in the rift to be effected by his abilities. 

Either way I love the rework but personally hate the global nuke spam build. I like to stop time and get those head shots. I just think its im some way should ramp up in damage and be less rewarding to make a spam 4 build.