Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[LokiTheCondom]

Just now, (PS4)destroyerchris1 said:

The health orb on reckoning kills is nice to read in the ability description that's it because that's all the use you'll be getting out of it is knowing it's there lol. That feature is completely and utterly useless. You're not killing anything with reckoning later lvls so to me it doesn't exist. But putting a kill dependant feature on a non dps frame is pretty idiotic to me. But like I said I'm just taking what they did add. Reckoning has armor debuff now so I work around that and the radiation proc because that's what it has thats worth anything.

Now that you mentioned it, I read the description. "Enemies who succumbed to this power have a chance to spawn a Health Sphere.", which sorta gives the impression that it should spawn an orb from being hit by it.

[(PSN)destroyerchris1]

39 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

I agree HG is too synergy dependant hey.

And truth be told this is Nidus's fault because everyone thought Nidus synergy is the way. Buy no-one plays nidus in coop and truth with all honesty Oberon is a Nidus coop version cause he does all that nidus does better in Co than in solo cause Nidus is very a solo frame and Oberon is a solo frame.

Yeah with NIDUS and OCTAVIA being such solid and great synergy themed frames ppl we're driving the synergy idea hard. Problem is DE took it in the wrong direction. Oberon doesn't have synergy he's straight up dependant on the power interactions. If you don't use his "power synergies" his abilities aren't even worth casting at all. That's not synergy in the slightest. Example Octavia's mallet is an amazing ability on its own. It synergizes with her 3 in that it makes the mallet mobile instead of stationary. THAT is a synergy. Mallet is fine on its own but depending on the situation you can make it mobile or stationary. Her 4 also makes mallet better that's a synergy. But you will use mallet even without the synergies because it's a solid ability. Even ASH bladestorm is a solid ability it does finisher damage and procs bleed you're gonna use it regardless. But turn invisible and the energy cost is cut in half when using BS that's a synergy. This is not the case with Oberon. His synergy doesn't give a slight advantage they're straight up required to be good at all lol.

Edited May 4, 2017 by (PS4)destroyerchris1

[LokiTheCondom]

Just now, MarrikBroom said:

Grateful you understand the basic idea that not everyone can raid. 

 

Anyway, any chance they'll kinda look things over and make more changes for Oberon Prime's release? I hope they will both because he's painfully close to 'there' but at the same time Not....

 

His stats are fine. It's his power interactions that need examining.

HEALTH ORBSSSSSS

[Schtirk]

Okay.

So it's likely too late now that Oberon received an energy pool buff, and is probably considered done. But I've thought a lot about why Oberon is not widely considered a good addition to a squad, even in his revisited state. And also I don't want to give up just yet.

Reason for new thread is that I want feedback on this and posting in the megathread will probably just see my post drowned and forgotten about in a few minutes, so sorry about that.

Anyway, I've read some threads about his revisit and caught on some of the general issues with his kit and the synergies, and this is what I'd do to make him feel more useful, less random, and above all, easier to understand and interact with. I think this last part is crucial for him to be a welcome addition to a squad.

Smite

I think Smite is fine. Oberon isn't a damage frame and should be more focused on crowd control, healing, buffing allies and debuffing enemies. However, it would be nice if the primary enemy hit by Smite would suffer an increased threat level from its former allies - such that nearby enemies within a certain range has a high chance to attack that target instead of ignoring it, as is often the case in my experience. I know that's how Confusion works, what I'm asking for is an increase in that effect for the duration of the debuff. Probably not going to happen but I want to throw it in there. The positive side of this would be that Oberon would get a reliable, ranged crowd control ability akin to Nyx's Mind Control, albeit in another fashion, and not outclassing it. It would increase his utility. If anything, the threat debuff could be one target only, i.e. if you Smite another target the first target will lose the debuff.

Of course, my experience might differ from others, and if I'm incorrect about this, then Smite is indeed fine.

Hallowed Ground

First of all, I want to give DE a huge THANK YOU for making this skill a bigger area of effect. Having said that, I really, really do not understand why it can't be made into a full circle, by default, simply having Power Range increase its radius. I have no idea of DE's intentions in making it a half-circle. Does anyone know? Has it been communicated by staff? Anyway, what's the harm in making it a full circle? Would it really be that gamebreaking? It's merely annoying having to cast it twice in two different directions to cover all ground. There is no tactical value in having a semi-circle and making players "consider and plan where to spend that precious energy to cover as much ground as possible".

Moving on, lots of people have asked for the ability to pick HG up and run around with it as an aura. I strongly disagree. Oberon's niche is, as I see it, area denial and support. Leave that as it is. However, because being stationary in this game is generally bad, people tend to move around a lot, including jumping, and by doing so, losing the HG status immunity during that jump. My suggestion is to have the status immunity persist for a few seconds, say 3 or 5, after leaving the area of effect, either through jumping or simply walking outside the radius. Entering the area of effect again will restore the buff and remove the timer. I think this is very reasonable considering Iron Renewal persists for quite some time after Renewal is deactivated.

Renewal

Ok, so Renewal is, as it currently stands, an ability that is hard to understand and interact with, not only by allies, but for Oberon players themselves. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ability - it's just wonky.
First, it's a toggled skill with no duration (HUGE thanks for that, by the way!) - affecting all allies - but only those that were within range when the ability was activated. Any ally that happened to be outside the radius gets no heals, no matter if they enter the radius after it's cast. Second, any ally lucky enough to be inside it's radius when cast then get heals, no matter their distance to Oberon, until he deactivates it or runs out of energy. I can't think of another skill in the game with similar mechanics (it certainly makes it unique, though). Third, for its synergy effect, if allies happened to be standing on Hallowed Ground AND were in range for Renewal, they also get the Iron Renewal effect which gives them additional armor (also HUGE thanks for the flat armor value!).

So in conclusion, we have a skill that heals allies indefinitely, no matter the range, if they happened to be near Oberon when cast. Other allies are left wanting. There is no real incentives for allies to stay close to each other, except for that initial cast. If Oberon happens to run out of energy, having the ability deactivated, allies will probably never see Iron Renewal again during that mission, except sporadically, because they never stick to each other. There are no real incentives to do so, so why should they? I don't really see the point of having these mechanics. If anything, explain the reasoning behind them to me...

My suggestion for Renewal is to ditch the initial heal (or make it considerably smaller), make it a pure heal over time, and make it an aura around Oberon. Remove the energy cost per ally, and increase the base energy cost from 2 energy per second to 5 to compensate. Allies within that aura when cast, as well as allies entering afterwards, get the heal over time buff. Leaving the aura range removes the effect immediately. So yeah, basically Nidus' Ravenous, but a mobile version. If allies within range of the aura are also standing on Hallowed Ground, they get the Iron Renewal buff as usual, which also persists for 20 seconds when they leave the Renewal aura (whether standing on HG or not). Now we have an ability that is easy to understand, easy to manage, reliable, have some nice synergies, and Oberon can actually deactivate it now and then in order to regain energy from EV, Zenurik or Energy Restores, without punishing either himself or his allies too much. To top it all off, allies now have an incentive staying close to Oberon!

Reckoning

No real comments here. It's a good crowd control ability, and the armor reduction is a really nice addition, thanks for that. It's a little weird having to get enemies onto HG to get it, but manageable.

Passive

So, his passive. There are not many skills, abilities or otherwise that does anything for pets, so while I understand that DE probably persists in having this as Oberon's passive is a tactic to get more people to use them, I still don't think it's what *he* needs. With the above changes, he brings a lot of utility to the squad, but to make him truly good, he might need something more. What I propose is this: grant him a small chance to spawn a health orb when any of his abilities deals damage to enemies (with a cap per second and enemy, so that HG won't spawn a trillion health orbs with a few enemies standing on it), and a small increase in the chance to spawn an energy orb when he kills an irridated enemy. Both orb types spawn at the enemy hit/killed, meaning Oberon and his squad can't just stay put while sniping things from afar, they need to go get the orbs too. Of course, the spawn rate shouldn't be so high that bringing him is mandatory, but just boost energy management as well as opening up Health/Energy Conversion builds without making Nekros obsolete.

I realize that none of this will likely ever happen, but if anything, at least I tried.

Also, sorry for wall of text.

[(PSN)Oreic-Reynier]

Just make it so it no longer heals Shadows of the dead and I'd be happy. 

[AdunSaveMe]

Since its effect is spotty and it fades when you're near it, it's not easy to figure out the borders of the ability. Give it a glowing border line like the original effect, so you can always tell exactly where the ability cuts off. No second guessing or squinting, just instant information.

Edited May 5, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[Enderlook]

Agree, also make the ability a quite more glowing because sometimes I thought that there is light reflex or something strange in the screen and I spend half or one second to understand that the floor has Hallowed Ground.

[Ceryk]

Originally I was exited by another Oberon Rework. Then I saw what they had planned for him and started getting worried. While some of the changes looked welcome, there were red flags. When I actually tried him I was shocked by how much worse he actually was. Even after the hot fix to fix one of his most severe problems (Renewal) I still didn't think he looked playable due to his energy pool. 20.4 brought an Energy Pool buff for him and I decided to try him out again so I could actually have grounds to complain about him if he was still awful.

I was expecting a minimal change at most. I am, however, pleasantly surprised that the hot fixes have made him go from worse than he was before to a frame that actually seems viable and play the way he was intended to play in the first place. I don't think he's prefect, I think the Hallowed Ground + Renewal Combo needs to be removed and Renewal needs to stand on it's own. Perhaps a larger initial heal if standing on Hallowed Ground or something like that. But shockingly, that's my only major complaint now. After several years, he actually feels like he's potentially viable.

[PsiWarp]

Agreed. Personally I would like something noticeable and not completely grounded like Chilling Globe's visual effect, with a holy light kinda style.

[(PSN)Oreic-Reynier]

It epitomizes his rework, lazy. 

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

23 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

 

Reckoning: Make the armor strip work on anything that's suffering radiation. IF POSSIBLE make anything that is hit by reckoning have a twenty five percent chance to drop a health orb if killed within x seconds (modified by duration.) 

id like to add that they should not make it a diminishing effect for the armor stripping 

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

2 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

I doubt very much Rebecca reads PM's but i have messaged her (and tried to mantain respectfulness.) If nothing else i"d like to see Scott explain why he feels all that was needed was a single value edit on Oberon's database entry.

yea to play off of what brozime said about the last devstream, i would like to see where the bar is for a rework. i mean, the reworks from mag to limbo ( i mean in general overall abilities not a single thing) were worlds apart. 

 

im not trying to start something im just wanting to know where the bar stands 

[Darkvramp]

Yea this about covers it. Beside that reckoning should just remove armor by itself, and maybe when targets are irradiated and slammed down by reckoning they automatically spawn health orbs. That is a more natural synergy.

[giricahunik]

oh all oberon rework feedback now moved here? or what?

[giricahunik]

1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

Eh why not?

 

Anyone find a build they like? Should I use growing power?

i just woried if we keep making new topic, it buried, and unnoticed

[Darkvramp]

Just now, giricahunik said:

i just woried if we keep making new topic, it buried, and unnoticed

then make a link into the larger oberon rework thread

 

[giricahunik]

Just now, MarrikBroom said:

Well it does help to differentiate Oberon 2.4 from 2.3.1 from 2.3 from before. 

 

I'm just approaching burnout because we give and give and there's all this math and well thought out discussion and then you have youtubers that are warframe partners able to whisper in DE's ear going on like we're all whining and moaning and we're crybabies.

oh ok ok

[-Defeater-]

todays update says 

"Fixed some issues with trying to add or remove a Renewal buff from multiple teammates over time rather than all at once" 

To me, this meant that youd be able to walk near a team mate after casting renewal away from them and theyd get the buff. Sadly, you have to corral your team and be like 
 

Ok everyone gather 'round the moldy carpet, uncle Obee's gonna give you some healing before i run out of energy 30 seconds from now.

Every. SIngle. Time. you run out of energy, you need to literally ask your team to come get healing all at once, and its the most annoying thing in the entire game at the moment. More annoying than 4 days of ayatan sculpture from sortie. So, DE PLEASE. fix this. just make it an aura. just make it not so clunky with normal warframe gameplay. Dont make me ask my team mates, some of which might not even be fluent in my language and not understand what im saying, to come sit on my carpet 2875902550673 times a mission. 

EDIT: also, if it didnt mean they fixed it like this, what did they do to it?
 

Edited May 5, 2017 by -Defeater-

[Doomsknightmare]

Seems we all agree that HEALTH ORB DROP from reckoning needs some tweaks.

[DogManDan]

I have no problems with my energy pool especially after the increase

[PsiWarp]

If you just want to heal them, make sure they're at least in Affinity Range before casting Renewal. Iron Renewal gives armor too, which while nice to have, isn't necessary every cast if healing is the goal.

It's a matter of your teammates learning/knowing how Oberon works, and whether they want to take advantage of the armor bonus or not.

Not sure what they meant with that fix, I will need to do some tests!

[PsiWarp]

15 minutes ago, Doomerang said:

Seems we all agree that HEALTH ORB DROP from reckoning needs some tweaks.

Yeah, why make the spawn chance tied to Reckoning kills when it does flat damage...

[SenorClipClop]

If you're a support, healing and buffing is your job. However, babysitting is not your job. If a squadmate needs healing or buffs, it's their job to know that Oberon's support moves have a set range, and it's their job to go find the Oberon in order to benefit from his powers. If you're in the right spot (which in Bro's case is usually close to the most relevant objective) and using your powers as needed, your job is done.

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Let's just IGNORE how smite technically gets weaker as a damage dealer the more power strength you have

Power Strength positively affects the base damage on both the initial strike (500 base) and the castoff orbs (200? base). Strength also increases the number of orbs, which further increases the total base damage.

I think the idea you're attached to is that since the health percentage is not affected by Strength and more orbs split that extra damage into smaller pieces, you have this idea that more power strength equals less total damage. Am I right, is this what you're thinking?

Because it's still the same amount of damage whether that 35% health of the initial target is in 6 or 8 or 10 orbs. No damage is being lost. If all orbs strike the same target, that's the full damage on a target, and Strength has done nothing but boost it. If the orbs hit different targets, they're still meting out the same amount of damage. It may even clear out more targets, which means less work for the Bro.

Furthermore, it's not just about damage numbers. Since each orb inflicts a stagger and a Puncture proc (decreasing enemy damage by 20%), more Strength means more orbs, which means more potential to hit more targets, which means the respectable debuff that Smite inflicts has more effect on the mission.

 

Adding Strength to Oberon doesn't make Smite any less effective at dealing damage. It just makes the damage from the orbs less specific to desired targets. But the orbs have always been beyond player control, and post-update 20.3 they do way, waaaay more damage. (I was honestly surprised when DE buffed the percentage to 35 in 20.3.1)

Edited May 5, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[Nox_Terminus]

10 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Power Strength positively affects the base damage on both the initial strike (500 base) and the castoff orbs (200? base). Strength also increases the number of orbs, which further increases the total base damage.

I think the idea you're attached to is that since the health percentage is not affected by Strength and more orbs split that extra damage into smaller pieces, you have this idea that more power strength equals less total damage. Am I right, is this what you're thinking?

Because it's still the same amount of damage whether that 35% health of the initial target is in 6 or 8 or 10 orbs. No damage is being lost. If all orbs strike the same target, that's the full damage on a target, and Strength has done nothing but boost it. If the orbs hit different targets, they're still meting out the same amount of damage. It may even clear out more targets, which means less work for the Bro.

Furthermore, it's not just about damage numbers. Since each orb inflicts a stagger and a Puncture proc (decreasing enemy damage by 20%), more Strength means more orbs, which means more potential to hit more targets, which means the respectable debuff that Smite inflicts has more effect on the mission.

 

Adding Strength to Oberon doesn't make Smite any less effective at dealing damage. It just makes the damage from the orbs less specific to desired targets. But the orbs have always been beyond player control, and post-update 20.3 they do way, waaaay more damage. (I was honestly surprised when DE buffed the percentage to 35 in 20.3.1)

35% / orbs = less scaling damage per orb as orb count increases. Considering at higher levels most of the damage is from scaling, you should be able to put 2 and 2 together. Higher power strength increases orb count, and directly lowers the damage dealt by orbs when scaling is taken into account.

When you can get every orb to hit the main target it does fine, but if you're hitting multiple enemies you just do diddly.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Nox_Terminus