Can we please ditch self-damage?

[O.O_]

13 minutes ago, maj.death said:

Without any warning? What the hell does that even mean? You shoot an explosive at your feet, you die. It's simple.

Why the hell should i shoot at my feet?... enlighten me.

Edited May 7, 2017 by O.O_

[Rex13568]

1 hour ago, O.O_ said:

Why the fck should i shoot at my feet?... enlighten me.

No need to over react, lets have a civil argument.

 Without it eventually dissolving into name calling.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Just now, Rex13568 said:

Sorry to say it,

however Ogris with maxed firestorm can reach 11+ meters,

which is a far cry from "at your feet" as you called it.

6 meters at base, + Firestorm makes 7.62 meters. Where are you getting 11 meters from?

One thing I will agree with is that explosions need a new visual effect that communicates the actual range of the detonation. The little flashy smoke cloud is not helpful.

[O.O_]

8 minutes ago, Rex13568 said:

No need to over react, lets have a civil argument.

 Without it eventually dissolving into name calling.

I changed it into "the hell"... like he did... happy now? -_-

Edited May 7, 2017 by O.O_

[Rex13568]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

6 meters at base, + Firestorm makes 7.62 meters. Where are you getting 11 meters from?

One thing I will agree with is that explosions need a new visual effect that communicates the actual range of the detonation. The little flashy smoke cloud is not helpful.

Opps, I used 124% in my calc....  

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

1 minute ago, Rex13568 said:

Opps, I used 124% in my calc....  

Drunk math best math. I make that same mistake all the time lol...

[Rex13568]

1 hour ago, O.O_ said:

I changed it into "what the hell"... like he did... happy now? -_-

I really didn't care tbh, but i'd like to see where this thread goes so i'd rather it not get taken down.

 

[DSpite]

1 hour ago, (PS4)HarryMuff said:

We don't have friendly fire, so why do we have self-damage? I mean, my team-mates certainly don't get blown up when I use my Zarr, so why do I?

Realism?!!

It's to stop you spamming at your feet what are essential one of the most useful weapons in the game when used effectively, and that is what was happening with the Tonkor, basically "just run full speed and fire nades" without a  worry in the world.

We already have the Simulor problem, we don't need to extend it to every explosive weapon in the game.

[Jackviator]

Remove it, no. That would just lead back to AoE weapons completely dominating the meta.

But if we were to instead reduce it to a set % of the player's effective health, like 30-50%, so it isn't a guaranteed one-shot? Sure. I'd be happy to see such a change, because getting one-shot is imo pretty unreasonable.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Jackviator

[O.O_]

6 minutes ago, Rex13568 said:

I really didn't care tbh, but i'd like to see where this thread goes so i'd rather it not get taken down.

It goes nowhere, like always.

And i already made an suggestion on how to make everyone happy(you would have to be blind to kill yourself if a big (red) ring shows you the explosion radius)... but almost no one cares.

[Syln]

51 minutes ago, O.O_ said:

It goes nowhere, like always.

And i already made an suggestion on how to make everyone happy(you would have to be blind to kill yourself if a big (red) ring shows you the explosion radius)... but almost no one cares.

Would be usefull for remote/timed explosion but not that much for anstrum/ogris/javlok/whatever else

[FireSegment]

in term of game design, self damage serve a purpose, in which it add to the risk and reward cycle of the system (many other game alsoe use self damage, there are a reason to it)

The problem with self damage in warframe, is that it always one-shot us, which is infact the result of damage scale balance rather than the flaw of self damage itself.

If you suggesting to remove self damage then you must introduce another mechanic to do what self-damage current purpose - which is a term of risk in using powerful weapon. Otherwise, asking to remove would just be petty whining.

Imagine if you would be "more satisfy" if DE remove self-damage, but instead added 6s stun-lock if u shoot urself, or permanently reduce u health/shield/energy for the rest of the mission instead.

[SoanoS]

The self-damage is there to add a "risk vs. reward" element that requires utilising at least three functional brain cells to the game.
You have been given a weapon that out-damages almost everything with a massive AOE blast.
Of course there has to be a downside to make it balanced.  
The self-damage just makes sense because if the explosive weapon damage was reduced, then the inferior damage,
combined with low fire rate would make the weapons just weak, awkward and cumbersome to use compared to everything else (Convectrix being an exception).
That would remove the unique nature of the launcher weapons.

Before Tonkor got the "nerf" everyone was just running around without a care in the world and spamming them at their own feet or
running point-blank to the enemy like demented suicide-bombers. The only skill required was to be able to run to an object and press a mouse button. :p

Here is a tip if you want to use or get the affinity for the launcher weapon:
Build the weapon, equip it but bring a decent secondary with you, and join a public game. It will level up passively as you play (safe).
If you want to use it, by all means, take a shot or three if you have enough distance to the target but switch to secondary the instant they get to close to medium range.
Treat its power with respect and learn to plan where your nades land and stay away from the "hot" zone.
And remember, if you have a explosion radius increasing mod, it doesn't mean you MUST use it. Think those to be for "special occasions" only.
After a while you learn to use the launchers and you won't even miss the lack of self-damage.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

5 hours ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Shooting at your teammates by accident is one thing, shooting explosives at your own feets and calling it an accident is something else.

To be fair I've had plenty of idiot teammates run directly in front of me for lols. It gets old after the first time.

[Tyrian3k]

Self damage should not be removed. Otherwise people will just start brainlessly spamming their explosive weapons and easily kill hordes of enemies.

If it was removed, you'd either have to remove all explosive weapons with it, or nerf them to the ground to balance them.

It could be toned down a bit to not always be lethal, though.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

To be fair I've had plenty of idiot teammates run directly in front of me for lols. It gets old after the first time.

Could you settle for simply having a tweak of mechanic where the nades don't interact with allied units? ( As in, pass through them )

I personally haven't had this problem and I find Self-Damage to be quite interesting, forcing me to think about what I'm doing, to adapt to the situation and use my parkour skills to their maximum potential.

The way I see it, the problem lies more in your teammates interrupting your shoots on purpose rather than the explosion itself.
 

[Fallen_Echo]

12 hours ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

Self-damage is a limitation on weapons being stupidly powerful. Tonkor still hits like a train, and my Secura Penta hits harder than my Tigris Prime. If those didn't have self-damage, everyone would use them. In fact, Tonkor used to be THE most used weapon in Warframe before the self-damage, if you'll see that logic.

And now with self damage, its damn rare to see someody use it. I wouldnt be suprised if the tonkor would get strong riven disposition in the next riven patching.

 

11 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

As someone who loves launchers that aren't Tonkor, on account of how dull Tonkor was after the first few missions, I don't want the self-damage mechanic removed. You learn the range of the AOE with practice. Then you learn to watch the minimap and position yourself so that things don't leap in front of your shots.

You say self-damage isn't fun. That's your opinion. To me, it is fun. Extreme power at great risk.If it would be really extreme power at great risk i would agree. Like in borderlands where shooting a good rocket launcher meants masses of dead guys and a boss with 50% less health, not like here where a lv100 grineer wont even notice an ogris rocket hitting his back. Hell, I'm more of a threat to myself than the enemies are under lv150. But thanks to a little practice and patience, the only time I suicide is when I get lazy and take a shot I know is stupid.

Some Actual Advice
Penta is no threat to you with the Tether Grenades mod. The grenades glow like a neutron star, so you always know where they landed. If you kill yourself with that, it's because you're not paying attention. Detonating prematurely with TG is a silly practice anyway. The best practice is to fire one round to yoink enemies into position, then fire a second one and detonate as it's passing over their heads for a beautiful AOE headshot. Shame its status is so low, or this tactic would be orgasmic with a gas build.

This was fixed in one of the patches after the banace pass. The tether grenades mod no longer prevents self damage. Also the bug where the grenades decide to blow themselves up is still there. Also aoe explosions cant trigger headshots.

If you're having trouble with Zarr, stay out of cannon mode. Treat barrage as the primary fire mode, and cannon as the secondary. Only switch to cannon mode when you need CC or a ranged attack, and then immediately switch back to barrage. Don't wait until a situation calls for barrage; just switch back immediately after firing a cannon round. You will very rarely kill yourself. Zarr is the only self damaging weapon currently what is widely used thanks to its safe shot mode.

If Ogris is giving you trouble, the only advice I can give is git gud. Ogris is a tricky weapon to handle post-buff. The augment is absolutely bonkers with Firestorm, but that brings its range to just under 8m, which is extremely unsafe. If you use it, keep to open areas. Mind your environment and try to stay in the air when you take shots. Same applies to Kulstar and Angstrum. This weapon is unusable at 80% of the starchart maps. 11m max range with 8 meter fire aoe if used with the augement makes it unuitable in most maps.

 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

Self damage does not make sense in warframe.  I am not against it, but it needs better implementation.  In games with good self damage mechanics there is a tactical decision to be made on weather or not it is worth the self damage for the extra power in the situation.  There is none of that in warframe.  Skewed health pools means that damage that instantly one shots us barely tickles an enemy.  Explosive damage is also just lack luster.  Explosive damage DPS is more or less the same or lower than the DPS on other more popular builds that do not deal self damage.

So to all the 'get good' people in this thread, tell me why.  Why should anyone get good with a weapon that has an overly punishing mechanic for no benefit?  Many, myself included, can use these weapons without killing ourselves.  But there is a very obvious reason most of us don't use this painfully unbalanced weapon class.  They're not worth it.

[LuckyCharm]

I agree. We should remove all explosive weapons from the game.

 

Wait we're just talking about removing every other weapon from viability and just leaving the explosives? What is this madness

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Self damage does not make sense in warframe.  I am not against it, but it needs better implementation.  In games with good self damage mechanics there is a tactical decision to be made on weather or not it is worth the self damage for the extra power in the situation.  There is none of that in warframe.  Skewed health pools means that damage that instantly one shots us barely tickles an enemy.  Explosive damage is also just lack luster.  Explosive damage DPS is more or less the same or lower than the DPS on other more popular builds that do not deal self damage.

So to all the 'get good' people in this thread, tell me why.  Why should anyone get good with a weapon that has an overly punishing mechanic for no benefit?  Many, myself included, can use these weapons without killing ourselves.  But there is a very obvious reason most of us don't use this painfully unbalanced weapon class.  They're not worth it.

If blast weapons would atleast have a bandaid mod like:

Direct hit from the explosion deal blast damage for 20% of the targets health. Enemies caught in the aoe without a direct hit take 20% blast damage based on theie current health.

Then i would agree with self damage but i would still want to see changes proposed here:

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[DSpite]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Self damage does not make sense in warframe.  I am not against it, but it needs better implementation.  In games with good self damage mechanics there is a tactical decision to be made on weather or not it is worth the self damage for the extra power in the situation.  There is none of that in warframe.  Skewed health pools means that damage that instantly one shots us barely tickles an enemy.  Explosive damage is also just lack luster.  Explosive damage DPS is more or less the same or lower than the DPS on other more popular builds that do not deal self damage.

So to all the 'get good' people in this thread, tell me why.  Why should anyone get good with a weapon that has an overly punishing mechanic for no benefit?  Many, myself included, can use these weapons without killing ourselves.  But there is a very obvious reason most of us don't use this painfully unbalanced weapon class.  They're not worth it.

I think this is a pretty good example of the game as a whole though.

In most other games that have things like Rocket or nade launchers, there is usually specific times where you would pull them out, while here, we equip them as "Primary Weapons", and on top of that we have "swarm enemy" mechanics ... it's not really a good mix for the two ideas working together.

Yes, we can go the other direction and use a "main" Secondary, and switch to a Tonkor for spot cleanup, but it just feels weird, I guess?

I have used and have had mates use the Penta, and it usually just ended up being "find a high spot, rain death a LONG way away", and frankly, that is a much LESS fun way to play simply to avoid one shot self kills, in more or less the same way that Sniper rifles are NOT fun to use, when you have special ammo pools AND you have to eventually walk all the way over where you shot stuff anyway in order to pick up ammo and drops.

All I am saying is that it really destroys a lot of immersion when the weapon you use requires to go too many extra steps over what you might be used to from mechanics of what most games consider more main line.

How to fix? No idea. I simply don't find the current methods any fun. Most missions are in tight corridors, with your own team members getting in the way CONSTANTLY, that's why the Tonkor was fun to use, and would of preferred a large damage drop as "balance" AND even some self damage, over "one shot kill self damage". Oh well.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by DSpite
spelling

[Rambit23Z]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Self damage does not make sense in warframe.  I am not against it, but it needs better implementation.  In games with good self damage mechanics there is a tactical decision to be made on weather or not it is worth the self damage for the extra power in the situation.  There is none of that in warframe.  Skewed health pools means that damage that instantly one shots us barely tickles an enemy.  Explosive damage is also just lack luster.  Explosive damage DPS is more or less the same or lower than the DPS on other more popular builds that do not deal self damage.

So to all the 'get good' people in this thread, tell me why.  Why should anyone get good with a weapon that has an overly punishing mechanic for no benefit?  Many, myself included, can use these weapons without killing ourselves.  But there is a very obvious reason most of us don't use this painfully unbalanced weapon class.  They're not worth it.

Their on-paper dps might be lower, but the AOE means that you need to multiply that number by 10 or even as high as 30 to get an accurate representation of what damage those weapons really dish out.

[TrickshotMcGee]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And now with self damage, its damn rare to see someody use it. I wouldnt be suprised if the tonkor would get strong riven disposition in the next riven patching.

See, that's subjective and not actual evidence. I still see tons of people using it. It's just that now the meta-kiddies no longer spam it in every farming mission. I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Tonkor is still used more than a LOT of other guns, and it's still more than viable (read: stupidly strong). 

Now the weapon is being appreciated for being strong, and not just broken. Just because it's no longer more effective than everything else doesn't make it suddenly not strong as hell. 

[Fallen_Echo]

22 minutes ago, TrickshotMcGee said:

See, that's subjective and not actual evidence. I still see tons of people using it. It's just that now the meta-kiddies no longer spam it in every farming mission. I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Tonkor is still used more than a LOT of other guns, and it's still more than viable (read: stupidly strong). 

Now the weapon is being appreciated for being strong, and not just broken. Just because it's no longer more effective than everything else doesn't make it suddenly not strong as hell. 

Well see next time they update the riven dispositions. Currently it has faint disposition but if it gets strong disposition that will mean the weapon is now in the same category as other useless gear like the tysis. It already lost a lot of users just with the crit chance nerf, the self damage was another nail in its coffin. But lets wait now for a riven update.

Time will tell.

[Liminal]

Self damage should be significantly reduced. Applying only base damage, without any mods, should be enough.