The survivability gap between frames is too high

[Rambit23Z]

So current Sortie is Radiation Hazard Survival on the Kuva Fortress. I decided to do a little test. Solo, of course.

First, I did it with Saryn Prime, Nikana Prime and Zenurik. I barely managed to complete it due to the sheer amount of one-shot levels of damage they did.

Next, I did it with the same setup except with Inaros instead. My damage was lower but the fact that I didn't need to worry about dying meant I could just go ham and stack up my melee counter with ease.

Lastly, I went back to Saryn, but with Naramon this time. And now it was even easier. To nobody's surprise, enemies that don't shoot cannot kill.

 

Simply put, DE needs to reign in the damage of higher level enemies so that we don't need all these 90% damage reduction abilities and perma-invis.

[--F--NerevarCM]

Shield Gating will probably fix these one shots in high level missions. Maybe warframes with high shield capacity will have multiple shield gates thus increasing the survivability of frames that don't have damage reduction abilities like Saryn.

[_DapperDanMan_]

Needs more Molt.

[Arezael]

I compeleted that S3 solo as Nekros and Mesa and had no difficulty with either. 

One issue here will be your choice of Frames, Saryn and Inaros do not have 'active' Damage reduction in the same vein as Shield of Shadows or Shatter Shield. (I don't count Inaros armour boost as the same category, so that may be a point of contention - it doesn't supply anything like the DR of the abilities I mentioned, because it carries secondary benefits)

The other issue will be that you're using melee - which I personally use on Survival because of said damage mitigation - without the aforementioned DR abilities in play. 

It may not be popular, but I expect DE want people to be more deliberate in their tactics and Frame choice when it comes to Sorties. That may mean only using certain frames under ideal circumstances, so I can't really argue if people struggle to solo some of them on particular frames - that was kinda the point.

[Xekrin]

31 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Shield Gating will probably fix these one shots in high level missions.

Except the majority of high level enemies enjoy the perks of toxin and slash on pretty much every faction.  One of the top reasons I don't even bother with Redirection mods on any frame.  Unless shield gate comes with a revision of allowing direct to health damage, I'm not going to expect a great deal of difference in how I play.

It will be nice not getting one-shot, but when that hit that 1hk's you now will likely be slash, the DoT will kill you anyway.  Or Toxin if its infested.  In all likelihood, if it does enough damage to one shot you now, the first tick of a DoT is probably all it will take.

Overall scaling will still be an issue, unless this shield gating thing comes with more than a simple gate effect.

[LSG501]

24 minutes ago, Arezael said:

 (I don't count Inaros armour boost as the same category, so that may be a point of contention - it doesn't supply anything like the DR of the abilities I mentioned, because it carries secondary benefits)

The inaros negating swarm augment works against slash etc in my experience too so Inaros does have 'active' damage reduction if the mod is used...

Also saryn has can have 'active' damage reduction via molt augment

Edited May 14, 2017 by LSG501

[Rambit23Z]

41 minutes ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Shield Gating will probably fix these one shots in high level missions. Maybe warframes with high shield capacity will have multiple shield gates thus increasing the survivability of frames that don't have damage reduction abilities like Saryn.

Doubt it, it might prevent a single one-shot, but not the next, and the one after that etc.

34 minutes ago, _DapperDanMan_ said:

Needs more Molt.

Also gets one-shotted.

25 minutes ago, Arezael said:

I compeleted that S3 solo as Nekros and Mesa and had no difficulty with either. 

Yes, because of stupidly high damage reduction.

26 minutes ago, Arezael said:

One issue here will be your choice of Frames, Saryn and Inaros do not have 'active' Damage reduction in the same vein as Shield of Shadows or Shatter Shield. (I don't count Inaros armour boost as the same category, so that may be a point of contention - it doesn't supply anything like the DR of the abilities I mentioned, because it carries secondary benefits)

And that's the whole point of this topic, to make the gap between those who do, and those who don't. it's no secret that the best frames are the ones with immense tanking abilities. And some like Chroma also has huge dfamage multiplier on top of that making him better at dps than many of the dedicated dps frames.

28 minutes ago, Arezael said:

The other issue will be that you're using melee - which I personally use on Survival because of said damage mitigation - without the aforementioned DR abilities in play. 

Saryn is a melee frame and should be able to do melee without resorting to Naramon easy mode.

29 minutes ago, Arezael said:

It may not be popular, but I expect DE want people to be more deliberate in their tactics and Frame choice when it comes to Sorties. That may mean only using certain frames under ideal circumstances, so I can't really argue if people struggle to solo some of them on particular frames - that was kinda the point.

I have no problem with certain frames being better at some things than others, but there is a limit to how large said gap should be. And going from "just barely scraping by" to "apply face to keyboard and win" on the highest (required) difficulty is a bit silly.

 

[Arezael]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

The inaros negating swarm augment works against slash etc in my experience too so Inaros does have 'active' damage reduction if the mod is used...

Also saryn has can have 'active' damage reduction via molt augment

Negation Swarm protects against Status effects, it doesn't do anything against a level 1-shot Bombard rocket. Or any other enemy type with enough damage to one shot you. That's what active damage reduction is being referred to in this case.

Another example of you taking this out of context - Molt and its augment does not prevent you from being killed by a teammate with a Rad prod for example. It has no DR properties - 'Threat' generated by drawing fire is exactly that. It's not reducing the actual damage of anything that's hitting you. Again, simple concept.

 

[ashrah]

what i would do is get rid of shields and increse hp of all frames shield gateing will not fix nothing

[Arezael]

1 hour ago, Rambit23Z said:

Yes, because of stupidly high damage reduction.

And that's the whole point of this topic, to make the gap between those who do, and those who don't. it's no secret that the best frames are the ones with immense tanking abilities. And some like Chroma also has huge dfamage multiplier on top of that making him better at dps than many of the dedicated dps frames.

Saryn is a melee frame and should be able to do melee without resorting to Naramon easy mode.

I have no problem with certain frames being better at some things than others, but there is a limit to how large said gap should be. And going from "just barely scraping by" to "apply face to keyboard and win" on the highest (required) difficulty is a bit silly.

 

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

I believe the Developers are steering this game towards a more cooperative environment (see: the recent spate of Clan based events). 

To this end, you struggled with those Frames because you tried to solo. In an environment they meant for team play.

That was the point of more difficult missions, and I'm fine with it. It encourages people to work together and help cover what would otherwise be weaknesses.

Soloing them is about best compromise - as far as anyone I have ever compared high level endurance runs with.

 

 

Edit: one last point to clarify: yes there are 'easy' ways to progress though said content. Clearly DE struggle with balancing the game in general. If that's the point of contention, you will want to reconsider the ramifications of making the survivabilty of every frame the same, or even very close.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Arezael
Missed point

[Rambit23Z]

8 minutes ago, Arezael said:

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

Yup.

8 minutes ago, Arezael said:

Edit: one last point to clarify: yes there are 'easy' ways to progress though said content. Clearly DE struggle with balancing the game in general. If that's the point of contention, you will want to reconsider the ramifications of making the survivabilty of every frame the same, or even very close.

I don't want the gap to be made insignificant, just less astronomically large.

P.S. My Saryn is built for survivability with both Vitality, Steel Fiber and Handspring. Combined with Rage and Life Strike I can deal with almost all the content in this game. But that doesn't matter when they take all my health in one hit.

 

Guess I'll just have to become a Naramon pleb from time to time.

[DrBorris]

I have been slowly working on a post about the stupidly high variation in TTK in Warframe, it is not even close to done but I do have this. It is the EHP of a few frames with all defensive mods and also counting their abilities (Base EHP is without any mods or abilities). 

I can't tell you exactly where the problem is, as having "tanks" is fine, but there (still) is no frame that draws aggro, meaning that one frame being able to tank does not really make much for team play. It is especially odd when one of the highest EHP frames is also one of the best DPS. 

 

I am game for "squishing" everything, enemies and us. Hopefully it would allow for more balanced game play and a true emergence of roles (not just jobs). 

[Rambit23Z]

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

I have been slowly working on a post about the stupidly high variation in TTK in Warframe, it is not even close to done but I do have this. It is the EHP of a few frames with all defensive mods and also counting their abilities (Base EHP is without any mods or abilities). 

I can't tell you exactly where the problem is, as having "tanks" is fine, but there (still) is no frame that draws aggro, meaning that one frame being able to tank does not really make much for team play. It is especially odd when one of the highest EHP frames is also one of the best DPS. 

 

I am game for "squishing" everything, enemies and us. Hopefully it would allow for more balanced game play and a true emergence of roles (not just jobs). 

This graph perfectly visualizes what I mean.

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, Arezael said:

Negation Swarm protects against Status effects, it doesn't do anything against a level 1-shot Bombard rocket. Or any other enemy type with enough damage to one shot you. That's what active damage reduction is being referred to in this case.

Another example of you taking this out of context - Molt and its augment does not prevent you from being killed by a teammate with a Rad prod for example. It has no DR properties - 'Threat' generated by drawing fire is exactly that. It's not reducing the actual damage of anything that's hitting you. Again, simple concept.

 

Then maybe you should be more clear about what you class as 'active' damage reduction then.... both of the augments that I mentioned reduced the damage taken by the frame.  What you appear to class as 'active' damage reduction is what would be classed as damage negation by the use of things like rhino's iron skin....

Edited May 14, 2017 by LSG501

[Arezael]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

Then maybe you should be more clear about what you class as 'active' damage reduction then.... both of the augments that I mentioned reduced the damage taken by the frame.  What you appear to class as 'active' damage reduction is what would be classed as damage negation by the use of things like rhino's iron skin....

Seriously?

I've already explained to you what damage reduction is and yet you still quote and post a slightly reworded version of what you originally got wrong in the first place. Active or not - you're just focusing on specific words to backpedal.

Regenerative Molt does not reduce damage in any way. You will die if you cast Molt and stand between it and a Bombard, in the exact same way you will die if you're invisible and you stand between the target and said rocket. Amongst a ridiculous other host of examples.

Negation Swarm only reduces damage that would occur from an inflicted Status effect. Note not all Status effects deal damage. It doesn't in any way stop you from taking full damage from any other source, again such as a Bombard rocket because it's not a damage reduction mechanic - it's a Status immunity mechanic. Learn the different between the two.

None of the points anyone relevant here uses are ambiguous. 

I'll repeat this one last time: nobody is discussing augments. If you bring it up again, you'll confirm that you're not contributing to this discussion, and you're doing it deliberately.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Arezael
Autocorrect error

[hukurokuju5]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I have been slowly working on a post about the stupidly high variation in TTK in Warframe, it is not even close to done but I do have this. It is the EHP of a few frames with all defensive mods and also counting their abilities (Base EHP is without any mods or abilities). 

I can't tell you exactly where the problem is, as having "tanks" is fine, but there (still) is no frame that draws aggro, meaning that one frame being able to tank does not really make much for team play. It is especially odd when one of the highest EHP frames is also one of the best DPS. 

 

I am game for "squishing" everything, enemies and us. Hopefully it would allow for more balanced game play and a true emergence of roles (not just jobs). 

should probably note that this graph only shows EHP without the the most important factor of TIME.  preemptive CC or invisibility is effectively 100% damage reduction for the CC duration in most cases; this bypasses the relevancy of EHP until the CC duration runs out.

ie:

>> enemy CCed --- cant take damage from that enemy for ___ seconds = no damage, hp values dont matter, YET

>> CC duration runs out  -- now that enemies can output damage, EHP matters

[Volinus7]

I'd say "disparities between frames" is not in the scope of DE's concern at all, and capping the scaling is also an alien concept for DE's mind.

[MudShadow]

Generally frames with massive AOE dmg have low survivability. The player can bypass this negative with Naramon, as you did. Which is why Naramon is the best focus school in the game.

 Only a very few frames have large scale AOE damage and also high damag mitigation. Mesa being one of them, it's also why Mesa is probably in the top three spot of best frames.

Inaros has high health but he's not really a damage frame, even though he can one shot enemies with covert lehtality. IT's still nothing compared to Equinox's Maim or Saryn. Same goes for Excalibur, good single target damage but he's not going to wipe out an entire tileset from the corner of the room.

Edited May 14, 2017 by MudShadow

[LSG501]

41 minutes ago, Arezael said:

Seriously?

I've already explained to you what damage reduction is and yet you still quote and post a slightly reworded version of what you originally got wrong in the first place. Active or not - you're just focusing on specific words to backpedal.

Regenerative Molt does not reduce damage in any way. You will die if you cast Molt and stand between it and a Bombard, in the exact same way you will die if you're invisible and you stand between the target and said rocket. Amongst a ridiculous other host of examples.

Negation Swarm only reduces damage that would occur from an inflicted Status effect. Note not all Status effects deal damage. It doesn't in any way stop you from taking full damage from any other source, again such as a Bombard rocket because it's not a damage reduction mechanic - it's a Status immunity mechanic. Learn the different between the two.

None of the points anyone relevant here uses are ambiguous. 

I'll repeat this one last time: nobody is discussing augments. If you bring it up again, you'll confirm that you're not contributing to this discussion, and you're doing it deliberately.

I haven't back-pedalled in the slightest.  It's you who is trying to backpedal.   You said in your first post that inaros does not have active damage reduction.... when it does with the augment, which is what I said in my first post. 

The augment will actively reduce damage taken by Inaros, your singular argument about a single shot from a bombard, which requires you to be well above level 120 in the case of Inaros, does not change that fact because very few people go above sortie level on a regular basis.. I just went and checked quickly in the simulcrum and I watched the augment actively remove (you get to hear the scarab's 'releasing' from inaros too) the damage from the blast/fire status of the missile so Inaros only received the initial damage from the impact of the missile (I stood right on top of the bombard too so it didn't miss), it received no status effect damage.

And you do realise that shield of shadows is an augment mod right... you actually helped initiate the discussion about augments... if you're going to 'encourage' someone to leave by implying you'll report their attempts at derailing a thread (when they're on topic) you might want to make sure you remember what you posted in your own comments before using it as part of the 'encouragement'.

Edited May 14, 2017 by LSG501

[(XBOX)RPColten]

On the topic of there being a massive gap in survivability between frames, I think this also has to be taken into consideration from the perspective of this being a co-op game.

Take this team for example:

• Banshee: Damage amplification & periodic enemy stunning
• Nyx: Crowd-Control and aggro-drawing
• Trinity: Team health/energy support and squad damage-resistance buffing. Great tank as well
• Frost: Effective shielding and enemy debuffing

Each one has a role that they can fulfill in a the squad but can fall short on their own. Frost can survive pretty well but he lacks any significant damage boosting. Nyx can control the enemies pretty well but lacks any strong health/armour buffs. So on and so on.

When I take Trinity into a group, I know that I won't be paying much attention to fighting the enemies. I'm going to be focusing on the teams health/shields and the energy supply. I leave the DPS to the Mesa or Excalibur. If I take Chroma in there, I know that I will be focusing on staying alive and dealing as much damage as possible. I won't be able to support my team very well though.

I know going into missions as Saryn or Banshee, my effective survivability will come down to my maneuverability and dodging. I know the Nidus and Rhino are going to survive pretty well, so I do what I can to help boost team damage and stun the enemies. Are my effective hit points much, much lower? Absolutely. That is their design. Squishy, but provides a hefty damage boost.

Here is hoping that DE can introduce a more proper aggression-drawing system that players can use to make the role of Tanks more effective.

[Chipputer]

So you take a frame that's basically paper, slap on a melee weapon, then try to solo a level 100+ survival with it. To nobody's surprise, you have a hard time.

What am I missing, here?

[Helljack84]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)RPColten said:

• Here is hoping that DE can introduce a more proper aggression-drawing system that players can use to make the role of Tanks more effective.

The core of the issue is that tanking isn't a thing. Aside from lootcaves or defense the squad is spread out most of the time. Also tanking damage doesn't work well in Warframe, you're better of maximising your survivability with invisibility or perma CC.

 

48 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

What am I missing, here?

Well, nothing really. If anything that's not invulnerable/invisible/immortal "basically paper" then it just proves the point.

[Djego27]

On 14.5.2017 at 10:05 PM, (Xbox One)RPColten said:

On the topic of there being a massive gap in survivability between frames, I think this also has to be taken into consideration from the perspective of this being a co-op game.

Take this team for example:

• Banshee: Damage amplification & periodic enemy stunning
• Nyx: Crowd-Control and aggro-drawing
• Trinity: Team health/energy support and squad damage-resistance buffing. Great tank as well
• Frost: Effective shielding and enemy debuffing

Each one has a role that they can fulfill in a the squad but can fall short on their own. Frost can survive pretty well but he lacks any significant damage boosting. Nyx can control the enemies pretty well but lacks any strong health/armour buffs. So on and so on.

When I take Trinity into a group, I know that I won't be paying much attention to fighting the enemies. I'm going to be focusing on the teams health/shields and the energy supply. I leave the DPS to the Mesa or Excalibur. If I take Chroma in there, I know that I will be focusing on staying alive and dealing as much damage as possible. I won't be able to support my team very well though.

I know going into missions as Saryn or Banshee, my effective survivability will come down to my maneuverability and dodging. I know the Nidus and Rhino are going to survive pretty well, so I do what I can to help boost team damage and stun the enemies. Are my effective hit points much, much lower? Absolutely. That is their design. Squishy, but provides a hefty damage boost.

Here is hoping that DE can introduce a more proper aggression-drawing system that players can use to make the role of Tanks more effective.

What DE should do is nerf the tanks(while there is nothing like a tank in the game, given that there is no agro mechanic and tanks do not fill a role in a party like in a MMO) to where rino is and adjust or just cap enemy damage scaling.

If squishy should do the damage, than frames like Chroma, Inaros, Mesa, Nidious etc. should deal like zero damage at all while they are in fact some of the hardest hitting in the game while Ember would need something like a 50 times base multiplier to accellerant, since 500k dps is not enught, better get 10M dps to compensate for being squishy(while you already deal 70%+ of the hole team damage if you play in a pug with the current Ember in sortis, especially extra armor grenier ones, because you are literally the only person that brings CP and a status weapon build around to punch through any level of armor). 

I also did play the sorti in question solo with Ember without any cheese, because I am tiered getting butchered in literally any radiation sorti by somebody playing a ash and spamming blade storm multiple times. It is not a interesting game play element if you hear a balista sound and press the respwan button, it is literally just bad design and a years old enemy scaling formula that was never intended for L100 and does literally not work at high levels, the reason why we spam map wide CC, cheese, invisibility or god mode since the base mechanic is not designed that you can reasonable play with it, even as low as level 100 on most frames.

If we should do a L100 daily, then it should be balanced around all frames, not the just the ones with the most HP. Given that it is absolutely NOT a DPS check, you can punch through it with nearly any modern weapon fairly easy, given how incredible bad weapon balance is this days(where the average player does not have to know how status or specific frames work, he just has point his weapon at something, press the left mouse button and it will die at L100). It does not need specific roles, a team setup or coordination, I can solo that with Ember and my prime weapon from 2014 quite easy, while the fame and the weapon is considered as incredible bad at high levels.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Djego27

[Djego27]

On 14.5.2017 at 4:02 PM, Arezael said:

I compeleted that S3 solo as Nekros and Mesa and had no difficulty with either.

You should give it a try with Ember or Saryn. I did not have any difficulties with Ember, however I scratch my head why getting one shot killed out of the blue is a good game mechanic and why you should be punished to solo the mission with a frame that got more or less the same HP as 80% of the other frames in the game.

On 14.5.2017 at 4:02 PM, Arezael said:

One issue here will be your choice of Frames, Saryn and Inaros do not have 'active' Damage reduction in the same vein as Shield of Shadows or Shatter Shield. (I don't count Inaros armour boost as the same category, so that may be a point of contention - it doesn't supply anything like the DR of the abilities I mentioned, because it carries secondary benefits)

The other issue will be that you're using melee - which I personally use on Survival because of said damage mitigation - without the aforementioned DR abilities in play. 

It may not be popular, but I expect DE want people to be more deliberate in their tactics and Frame choice when it comes to Sorties. That may mean only using certain frames under ideal circumstances, so I can't really argue if people struggle to solo some of them on particular frames - that was kinda the point.

Inaros is literally semi afk mode, given the HP pool and that every single hit will kill any unit and will 100% heal you. Melee has nothing to do with it, melee builds actually scale better on most frames(Saryn and Ember included, given that you do mod for more armor and QT instead of duration and range).

There is no such a thing as a frame choice for sortis, you could basically press the start button and get the reward with Mesa and Nekros given that there is literally nothing in the mission that can kill you while other frames get killed in single hits, it does not make any sense at all, given that it is also not a damage check(laughable, given that DE gives everybody literally the ability to one shot L100 stuff nowadays without even playing a frame with damage multiplication), team play or coming up with a specific plan for something as simply as 10 minutes in a L100 survival what is a trivial task for any damage frame outside of getting one shot killed.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Djego27

[Arezael]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

You should give it a try with Ember or Saryn.

Where does it say that I didn't? 

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

I scratch my head why getting one shot killed out of the blue is a good game mechanic

Where do I state that this is a good game mechanic?

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

why you should be punished to solo the mission with a frame that got more or less the same HP as 80% of the other frames in the game.

Where did I mention there being a punishment for solo? What does HP have to do with anything I have said?

Are we developing a pattern here?

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Inaros is literally semi afk mode, given the HP pool and that every single hit will kill any unit and will 100% heal you. Melee has nothing to do with it, melee builds actually scale better on most frames(Saryn and Ember included, given that you do mod for more armor and QT instead of duration and range).

I mentioned his 4th ability once, as something I discounted for discussion (as well as including his other abilities not matching that description mentioned). What follows thereafter is people fixating on him despite me saying it is outside the bounds of my comments in the first place.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

There is no such a thing as a frame choice for sortis

If you say so. I highly doubt that is a fact though, because its personal preference.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

with Mesa and Nekros given that there is literally nothing in the mission that can kill you while other frames get killed in single hits

I died once in one of my solo runs, and not at all during the group runs. This particular Sortie 3 that the OP mentions. They were all on different Frames.

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

given that it is also not a damage check(laughable, given that DE gives everybody literally the ability to one shot L100 stuff nowadays without even playing a frame with damage multiplication)

Player Damage output is very specifically not being discussed because it isn't an issue in the first place. 

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

team play or coming up with a specific plan for something as simply as 10 minutes in a L100 survival what is a trivial task for any damage frame outside of getting one shot killed.

My plan involves reading the mission description and adjusting my loadout accordingly - this tends to take around 30s, let's call it 2 mins and be generous. I generally then solo the entire Sorties (I'd guess around 20mins? Depending on how many duration style missions there are) for that day, and move onto something else. Repeat, everyday (since Rivens were introduced at least).

If that is your description of "coming up with a specific plan" then so be it. It's not mine.

I thereafter help others do them as/when they ask, and I can assure you the reason I get asked is due to it not being a 'trivial task' for them. I know because I have asked, and they replied.

This leads to one of the main points I was trying to make that apparently nobody has touched upon. I'll leave it for you to tell me what that is - since you apparently know, even though I haven't mentioned it.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Arezael
Spacing borked.