The Second Stream Podcast #15 - Devstream 93 and Design Council Topics, including Trials, Wukong, and more!

[Kinetos]

20 minutes ago, Gorila_Azul said:

You're right. "Made to have fun" would require the players to want to play the game and be willing to use the mechanics legitimately in the first place. I suppose I just thought this went without saying. \_(•-•)_/

Ive had people say that and mean it literally.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

- regarding the next Warframe's theme, I can't really see any of those being a proper fit, but at a guess I'd say Alchemy. I'd like an Alchemist frame, it seems like a cool idea.

- I use Wukong somewhat often, mostly in Sorties and some of the DC challenges we've had. I think that he's a good frame, but he could use some improvements.

- pretty much all of those frames are ignored, though I have seen a couple Nezha's around recently, and Atlas isn't too bad. for me it was between Zephyr and Hydroid, and while I definitely think Zephyr is due a rework, Hydroid is most likely to be the next prime and he DESPERATELY needs a rework before priming. I seriously hope DE are already on it, or will be soon, because he needs looking at in many areas, and as Oberon proved, slight buffs aren't good enough anymore.

- I have completed Law of Retribution on Normal twice, but that's it. I've never attempted LoR on Nightmare and have never even attempted Jordas Verdict. raids have never really appealed to me and since the second time  then I've never had a large enough group of people I can communicate with that are willing to attempt the Raid, and I sure as hell don't want to risk a public run, because I know it'll only end badly. it was somewhat enjoyable though, but I won't ask for Arcanes to be put anywhere else, I'd rather leave the raid community as it is. definitely a few tweaks needed in terms of design though, maybe some better puzzles or something?

 

[Sannidor]

Zephyr would be so easy to improve, but considering recent "reworks" I'm afraid she would lose something I like in the process...

I would like her jump-first power to knock down enemies with wider range.

Second ability used on the ground could create small wind gust.

Range and damage of air aimed second power is very poor, augment does not work well and makes little sense dragging enemies inside.

Tornadoes are decent for CC but aiming for enemies is a pain. Maybe slightly weakened juggle effects would be better.

Overall, I enjoy Zephyr for her mobility and simplicity - no forced "synergies" (enough with these, come on DE, it's not a MOBA...). 

 

As for the trials - they should be constructed of a few random elements - stages, with opening and closing with the same sequences but middle part having some variety.

I'm not into trials because these are repetitive, it's always the same things happening like sci-fi groundhog day of boredom. Mix things up and I'll be intrigued enough to bother.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Sannidor

[MortalMercenary]

It seems to me that Hydroid is only ever used for his Pilferering swarm augment, Nezha was mostly used for glitching through stuff or is used to go fast with Volt, Zephyr really doesnt seem to get much play time and Atlas really only has his one punch man build, which is effective but he needs more than just being a meme frame.

[dual1020]

4. What other Warframes do you think are largely ignored by the community? Please explain why in a comment.

I think in general the ones listed are largely ignored. But also frames like Mag and Vauban get neglected as well too. Some of Mag's powers are still pretty weak and are a result of nerfs by things that don't exist in the game anymore, for example Greedy pull being near useless because of Draco farming. With Interception Draco no longer being a thing, having greedy pull at its current state doesn't make sense. Vauban's minelayer has made using bounce and his 2 powers more clunkier since the player needs to hold the button to activate instead of a simple button press, while Vauban is still viable i feel the minelayer change was hasty and made using it very clunky.

6. If you participate regularly in Trials, why do you do so? + Do you enjoy Trials?

I rarely participate in them not because i dont want to but it is because of the "culture" surrounding them. The culture i am referring to is the speedrunning sites that record player's time and # of times run on the trials. I used to run trials near daily before these sites popped up and stopped after that, now when i want to join as a casual play the recruit chat/host does not take me because those sites have not recorded my previous runs. As of now i have 3 records on http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=dual1020, but i know i've played more than that before. However, i do enjoy the raids because its something different, but i do not enjoy raids because of the elitist culture that is arising from people using these time sites. I understand that sites like these help identify a player who knows how to play the trials. But i do not understand why the ingame player profile does not show how many times or stats of trial runs. 

 

[Sannidor]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

I really wanna address the "what Warframe do you think is most ignored by the community". 

Well, call me biased, but short answer is Equinox. It is true that some of the listed frame are in worse shape than her - yet I swear I have yet to see mention of her... Anywhere. 

We don't talk about Fight Club.

But seriously, I fear for every fun aspect of this game because I can't tell if it's "intended" (too many times DE stated something was NOT). 

Some power, synergy, weapon mechanic - can work flawlessly and one day - kablamo, shazam, it's nerfed to the ground and jumped on.

I use Equi for many missions in which she benefits from one aspect not always related to mission success. I like to play both forms as well but fear asking for transferred stacks from 4th between day and night may result in killing efficiency in the process. 

Not many players pointing out Harrew's first power is too similar to day form Equinox, heh? I guess finishers are different from headshots but locking crowds in place - always a good idea... Excal, Inaros, Mesa, night Equi, Ivara, to some point Ember, Banshee, Frost... Did I miss someone? 

 

[OmegaSift]

1. I hope its an alchemy Frame that would be pretty metal turned to gold.

2. I just got him but he seems to fill the same spot as Valkyr, and since her 4 was reworked, his Undying seems more stable than hers so he will probably replace her in my roster.

3. there is no 3.

4. Poor flappy Zhep. She used to be my go to for getting around fast, now Titania does what she always wanted to do, fly... all the while all she can do is fall with style.

5. and 6. Yes, I like the stuff, wish there was more to get.

7. I somewhat enjoy them. They are so static, you have to always bring this set of frames it feels like and that can lead to some boredom. Not to mention the static layouts and objectives, once again; do this one thing or don't bother, also leads to boredom and frustration if people don't know how to do it and many don't bother to learn.

 

[Archwizard]

Post-Harrow Warframe

What I can tell from the picture is that she has a lot of glass and bronze to her design. I was actually a little worried there that she's a Time frame with an hourglass motif to her since I've written a concept a bit like that myself - which, I admit, my apprehension is conceited - but I don't think there's enough to say whether she is or isn't.

I would lean more towards Mirror theme just because of a few options she might have there - swapping appearances with enemies, reflecting incoming attacks, etc. - but I wonder if there isn't a lot of overlap with Mirage for the rest of the kit.
The suggestion that she might be an Alchemist is quite interesting! I imagine that theme would probably involve a lot of synthesizing your own ability effects. Not sure if it's necessarily practical to her design, however.

My best guess is that she's some type of gladiatorial Warframe, owing to her heavy weapon and armor, but who knows.

Ignored Warframes

Of the choices presented in that list, I would say Zephyr and Hydroid have the most problems right now.

Zephyr, you can easily tell the direction her abilities were going and what unique niche she was designed for. She's based around remaining airborne, staying out of reach from melee enemies while creating a barrier against ranged enemies. If you look at her on paper, she actually was an early case of a Warframe with indirect synergy scattered throughout her kit: Tornado throws enemies into the air, Tail Wind allows her to attack enemies in the air, Turbulence protects her while she's in the air and Dive Bomb interacts almost directly with Tail Wind. You can see where she was theoretically headed, but it wasn't pulled off practically.
Her problems are twofold: First, she has very little niche, primarily because only a handful of tilesets actually give her the ceiling space she needs to pull off the above strategy. Second, and more importantly, is her execution. Tornado is an effect that cannot be controlled or directed; enemies are tossed around, making it hard to aim at them, turning Zephyr into the bane of the team when she catches a Parasitic Eximus. Tail Wind has been rendered obsolete by Parkour 2.0, and Dive Bomb has always been redundant of a ground slam, while also taking her out of her aerial element. Three quarters of her kit are damage-oriented but lack the scalability to make them worthwhile beyond low-level tiles; only Turbulence is really salvageable as an ability, but it's also been the one to see the most reworks since her release.

Hydroid, meanwhile, has no clear direction. Most of his kit suffers from the same problems as Tornado: his 1 and 4 are both random and uncontrollable, while his 3 makes it easy for him to troll the team by protecting enemies. Likewise, Tidal Surge is mostly outclassed as a mobility tool, especially due to the small area it covers. His abilities have virtually no synergy with one another, with some even actively interfering with others. Once his flat damage has fallen off, every ability in his kit is a form of area denial or mass crowd-control, where just one would do (his 1 and 4 both seem to cover the same niche in his kit, bar duration); his CC is primarily based on knockdowns and ragdolls, which are used by so many frames that the only unique advantages of Hydroid are toggled invulnerability and his augments.
I think this is partly to blame on the fact that his kit is designed to be cosmetic rather than practical. "Pirate" is a relatively underused archetype in gaming, and has very few unique mechanics or playstyles associated with it, outside of actually captaining a ship. We only know he's supposed to "play" like a pirate because he calls a cannon barrage.
There is no driving goal or "reward" to his kit; Zephyr wants to stay airborne and rain fire on enemies, Loki wants to distract enemies with his Decoy while he invisibly cuts them down, Nidus wants to cluster enemies and spread Infestation to build Mutation stacks, Oberon wants to battle on Hallowed Ground and reduce damage to levels he can heal, what the Hek does Hydroid want?

And in both cases, they have horrendous grey anti-aliasing lines all over their bodies, even on their PBR'd Immortal skins.

Nezha, I will say his healing is terrible and Blazing Chakram needs to be reworked... but he's basically a support-focused version of Rhino with higher mobility, so he has his place, especially with the Safeguard augment.

Atlas' Landslide is just phenomenally fun, and Tectonics (particularly with the augment) offers unique strategies. Petrify is impractical as-is; his Rumblers need a niche, like building combo count or something, and the Conclave augment would be so much more fun as a mission ability.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Archwizard

[tnccs215]

47 minutes ago, Sannidor said:

We don't talk about Fight Club.

But seriously, I fear for every fun aspect of this game because I can't tell if it's "intended" (too many times DE stated something was NOT). 

Some power, synergy, weapon mechanic - can work flawlessly and one day - kablamo, shazam, it's nerfed to the ground and jumped on.

I use Equi for many missions in which she benefits from one aspect not always related to mission success. I like to play both forms as well but fear asking for transferred stacks from 4th between day and night may result in killing efficiency in the process. 

Not many players pointing out Harrew's first power is too similar to day form Equinox, heh? I guess finishers are different from headshots but locking crowds in place - always a good idea... Excal, Inaros, Mesa, night Equi, Ivara, to some point Ember, Banshee, Frost... Did I miss someone? 

 

Pls stop with the nerf mongering.

If there is something lacking in Equinox, it's synergy and fluidity.

DE does not nerf as commonly as you think and, frankly, if efficiency is what you need to trade for a more fluid Equinox, so bit it.

Though, it would be a rather idiotic trade. as it stands, Mend is the worst ultimate of the game. Having to nerf it to compensate "the immense power" Equinox would get by being able to transfer stacks is... stupid.

[Archwizard]

5 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

-snip-

I agree that Equinox has plenty of design problems - primarily in that she's discouraged from switching forms and has very little synergy between the two, effectively rendering her as two separate frames with 3 abilities each - but I don't think she's "ignored by the community", primarily because of the unique benefits she provides to the team. (Namely Provoke.)

Edited May 31, 2017 by Archwizard

[tnccs215]

6 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

but I don't think she's "ignored by the community", primarily because of the unique benefits she provides to the team. (Namely Provoke.)

I think we are using different definitions of "ignored"

I am well aware that she is used by some -- but simple usage does not equate to, well, care. It's like saying Hydroid is popular because many people use him -- ignoring the fact that only happens because he has Pilfering Swarm.

Hydroid is used because he has a very specific, very useful skill that is extremely rare on other frames -- therefore, his problems are put aside for the simple benefit that his augment brings. Equinox -- specially as you said, Provoke, is a similar (albeit substantially less toxic) case. She is one of the two frames capable of increasing the power strength of teammates -- and the only one capable of doing so squadwide. All her issues and problems will be ignored during her usage, simply because of this benefit.

And yet, that is all she will be used for. There is not much care for her, neither on the forums, nor on reddit -- and truth be told, if in these places where the most opinative people are, a certain opinion is rare or nonexistent, than it's safe to assume the same extents to most of the community that does not populate these places -- because Provoke is all that matters. Not her concept, not the idea behind her, But simply Provoke and Peaceful Pacify. The fact many people who swore by her Rest, and how she didnt need any buff because "she has Rest" have migrated to other frames offering similar skills -- Inaros, Excalibur, Ivara, and Harrow in the future -- corroborates that.
Discussions on her are extremely rare, and the few that exist, excluding some exceptions, are extremely superficial. Compare that to the constant rework fest that exist on the feedback forums for all the listed frames -- and even for other, much, much more balanced ones -- and the differences are staggering.

Her overal usage might not be has low as, say Zephyr -- but she's definetly just has, if not more, ignored.

[TheyreFood]

Honestly the trials are mixed, LoR is too easy and honestly a little boring, JV feels overly complicated and boring, so I hope the next one is a happy middle ground with a flashy ending

[ChronoJXF]

We need dummy captura maps of Trial parts to show off and demo on what newbies should do on raids.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

Well, as a Hydroid main (*gasp*) .. I would actually like to see him buffed, but not reworked much at all.  I know he WILL be reworked, but I really hope that they simply add some "synergy" to his powers (like Oberon) and let his powers scale instead of having flat amounts. Let us be honest-- even after his rework, most players won't use him anyway.. so let the Hydroid mains keep the frame we have loved and caused havoc with for years remain the same.. just buff him and let powers scale. 

SO.. that having been said..

 

 I'm going to say that Zephyr is the least played frame.  I see Hydroid everyday :) ... but I never see a Zephyr. 

          

[Archwizard]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

I know he WILL be reworked, but I really hope that they simply add some "synergy" to his powers (like Oberon) and let his powers scale instead of having flat amounts. Let us be honest-- even after his rework, most players won't use him anyway.. so let the Hydroid mains keep the frame we have loved and caused havoc with for years remain the same.. just buff him and let powers scale. 

How do you expect them to add synergy to a kit where his powers physically cannot interact?

Tentacle Swarm holds enemies over Undertow, elevates them too much to be struck by his other abilities, and slaps them around so much that it's hard to even aim at them; Undertow prevents enemies from being damaged by any means, particularly Tempest Barrage; and Tidal Surge and Undertow are mutually exclusive. That really just leaves, what, casting Surge within the radius of Barrage? Here's hoping you don't push enemies out of it.

Three-quarters of his kit share the same "area denial" niche, half of his abilities have their affected area dictated by RNG, and Swarm and Undertow are considered heavy trolling abilities.

He needs more than just scaling.

Secondly, Oberon Prime just came out, Oby's use numbers are about to shoot up.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Archwizard

[(PSN)mini_me_13]

I used to do LoR  a lot for fun, but most groups take themselves way to seriously. I prefer to play solo anyway. 

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

6 hours ago, Archwizard said:

How do you expect them to add synergy to a kit where his powers physically cannot interact?

Tentacle Swarm holds enemies over Undertow, elevates them too much to be struck by his other abilities, and slaps them around so much that it's hard to even aim at them; Undertow prevents enemies from being damaged by any means, particularly Tempest Barrage; and Tidal Surge and Undertow are mutually exclusive. That really just leaves, what, casting Surge within the radius of Barrage? Here's hoping you don't push enemies out of it.

Three-quarters of his kit share the same "area denial" niche, half of his abilities have their affected area dictated by RNG, and Swarm and Undertow are considered heavy trolling abilities.

He needs more than just scaling.

Secondly, Oberon Prime just came out, Oby's use numbers are about to shoot up.

 

Allow me to clarify my stance for the duration of single post, then I will go silent so as not to monopolize the board.

Combination effects -- for example,  enemies who fell into undertow get some sort of marker which then applies some effect... such as armor stripped or a critical change or damage multiplier.  For example-- maybe undertow can strip shields or armor. Tentacles can allow for a huge damage multiplier (either per enemy in tentacle OR to the enemies in tentacles) etc..  Maybe these can even stack in such a way as:  Undertow a crowd (strips of armor) and then tentacle them (damage multiplier). 

As far as overlapping powers-- as a Hydroid main, I don't see the need for that. Having gotten to MR23, played with all weapons, etc.etc.. all while using Hydroid 50% of the time (that is alot of hours as Mr.OctopusHead.....) I can say that-- legit : Each power can stand separately. Hydroid players actually prefer this. I know people will disagree and that "non-Hydroid players" demand a significant rework to be interested to play as him. I get that. I understand that. (and I know that DE will probably due this money reasons) But, again-- as someone who has zero concerns taking Hydroid into anything the game offers-- I argue that a complete rework is not needed.

(Note: Confirmed, I do not take Hydroid into 6 hour MOT survivals. But that type of Meta-Gaming is not intended nor supported by the developers, and I can't imagine they would completely rework a warframe to fit into Meta-Long-Runs when such runs are outside of the intended usage of the game. In otherwords: Any and all frames and weapons that work in the meta-long-runs are SHEER coincidence. So-- no, I don't MOT-6-hours with Hydroid... but since that type of play style isn't supported by the developers and is merely side effect based meta-gaming... I wouldn't think Hydroid would be reworked to fit that play style. As stated, Hydroid can currently crush all the INTENDED material in the game, so I would think the rework would be based on that. Also confirmed : I don't do 6 Hour MOT runs because I --literally-- do not have the free time to spend 6 hours on a single mission. ) 

Hydroid doesn't have to function like most other warframes in order to get 1 month of boosted popularity (Oberon will have about a month of boosted popularity, and then his usage will drop again. The numbers only shoot up for a temporary time period, then people go back to their preferred frames).  Hydroid functions fine now. Everything that needs to be done in the game can be done with Hydroid as he his currently-- and so there is no need to dramatically rework him.. just buff him and provide combination effects. 

I suppose I was misspoken when I used the word "synergize"...    the only true "interaction" of powers I want to see is simply the ability to tidal surge from the undertow state... that is about it.  And-- I am fully aware that DE will more than likely change Hydroid's kit around to make players more attracted to him -- especially when the high chance of him being the next prime.  However, I still hold out that DE will rework him like Oberon and simply buff stats and combination-stack his powers.   But-- as I said.. we all know that the spike in numbers is a short lived reality. Oberon's numbers will soon go to Harrow, then the next frame, then the next frame. It would be a nice change to see Oberon more frequently (especially due to his new rework's ability to make my Hydroid actually have some armor lol) -- but even with his increased utility and team buffs and armor stripping ability--- I still doubt we will see a sustain increase in Oberon numbers.

The thing is Hydroid is he works for a group of players... and in a game with over 30+ warframes, I'd like to think that they can be allowed to be different and speak to certain portions of the player demographic. For example, if Hydroid wasn't in Warframe--- I wouldn't play Warframe. That simple.  I like Hydroid. He "speaks to me".  He isn't like the other warframes-- and this is good because variety is the spice which makes a successful game. I don't want Trinity, I don't want Ash, I don't want Mag--- if those were my only choices, I'd quit. It is a video game that is for entertainment purposes-- If I am not entertained, I simply stop playing.  DE seems to understand this-- thus, they have been putting out very specifically themed warframes --- as it only makes sense to appeal to a wide variety of players. However, this is all broken if they strip of character of his/her uniqueness and try to "normalize them" for the purpose of making "1 month" player numbers spike,

In short-- he only "needs more than boosts" to entice a temporary boost in his usage numbers.  Hydroid players don't "need" anything to keep playing as him and enjoying playing as him.  Perhaps I am a "casual" player (as I don't have 4,000+ hours of play time and I don't 6 hour MOT etc.etc...) but again-- there needs to be a warframe for various types of players.  Again-- if Warframe was only about 8 hour MOT running Ash Primes-- I would simply never play the game.  Hydroid may be a "niche" warframe-- but in a game with over 30+ warframes-- that is not a problem. It only strengthens and increases the player base. So-- for the people who are drawn towards Hydroid-- simply give them some good boosts and throw in some combined effects on is powers-- basically, do what they did with Oberon. 

Because-- remember-- after Oberon, there comes Harrow. After Hydroid Prime, there will be yet another frame.   The usage numbers will only see a temporary surge-- and then on to the next frame. 

  

But, I have rambled on enough in a single post and have stated my stance on the matter. As promised, I will keep my thoughts contained to this single post and will not clutter the board with continued ranting/rambling. 

 

[Voltage]

I do Trials daily and I enjoy them because of the times associated with them. I like seeing my leaderboard on trials.wf. The Arcanes could use a touch up, mostly the status resistance ones. Other than that, playing trials with friends and enjoy the game mode.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Atlas is the least plsyed warframe imo because hes locked behind an boring questline.

 

I play the crap out of wukong. Love him! 

The resistance arcanes need a buff of some kind. Love warframe!

 

One more thing... I think melee rivens are not needed, and may hurt the game. Just take all the older mods and tweak em a bit....to meet newer game play and styles.

Edited June 1, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Sannidor]

17 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Pls stop with the nerf mongering.

DE does not nerf as commonly as you think and,

Uhm... Are you only reading forums patch notes for changes? 

Let me test your attention - how many Redeemer nerfs happened in last two months? Three. None of which was silent shot related.

DE does stealth nerfs all the time.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Sannidor

[Archwizard]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Combination effects -- for example,  enemies who fell into undertow get some sort of marker which then applies some effect... such as armor stripped or a critical change or damage multiplier.  For example-- maybe undertow can strip shields or armor. Tentacles can allow for a huge damage multiplier (either per enemy in tentacle OR to the enemies in tentacles) etc..  Maybe these can even stack in such a way as:  Undertow a crowd (strips of armor) and then tentacle them (damage multiplier). 

You're aware that Undertow and Tentacle Swarm already deal armor- and shield-ignoring Finisher damage, yes? And that the simple "Reckoning does double damage to procced targets" boost doesn't actually add scaling, and rapidly falls off as an incentive, particularly due to its high cost?

I can understand wanting to Surge from Undertow, to relocate the puddle while keeping your collection of enemies with you. But that's really the only viable interaction they could add to his kit, and it doesn't solve a lot of his problems.

Hydroid's kit is bad for teamplay - no ifs, ands or buts about it, and that's a result of his fundamental construction. His base kit provides nothing but CCs other frames can do better with one button (primarily because half of Hydroid's are randomly ineffective), and half of those options make it harder (or even literally impossible) to hit enemies; Lotus help you if you catch a Toxin or Parasite Eximus, 'cuz its aura still hits back. There were people who Limbo appealed to as well before his rework, but half his kit was still capable of (however unwittingly) trolling the team, and that outweighed his "Dark Souls-esque single combat" appeal.
Limbo was one of my main frames at the time and still is. I still granted he needed to change, and drastically. You can tolerate the same for Hydroid.

Say what you will about Oberon, his rework addressed his weak teamplay and provided him with more significant scalability. Oberon used to be one of my go-to soloing frames, and his rework rekindled my interest, to the point he's been my go-to support choice.

No, I don't go to 6 hour Mot survivals either. I do Sorties like everyone else - which were designed as an intended difficulty level in the game.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Archwizard

[(XBOX)ShroudedFox821]

1-other-a warframe based around shadows and hexes to serve as a steel meridian's quest frame

2-no opinion

3-guess theirs no charm here

4-atlas but i think thats because of the archwing missions to get him 

5-yes

6-only when people ask me to do so

7-they feel tedious

 

[tnccs215]

2 hours ago, Sannidor said:

Uhm... Are you only reading forums patch notes for changes? 

Let me test your attention - how many Redeemer nerfs happened in last two months? Three. None of which was silent shot related.

DE does stealth nerfs all the time.

True? What were them? 

Because if they apparently like to stealth nerd, they do it to things that don't need it - and, judging by the average power of the average weapons and frames, that means those stealth nerfs are more likely to be bugs than anything. 

Of course, I can be wrong - but that would mean people at DE are just plain cruel, and cruelty doesn't just exist for its own unjustified sake. 

[Raesvelgr]

1) executioner or gladiator maaaybe a warrior of some sort

4) Hydroid because his abilities don't seem very exciting and he looks kinda funny (subjective I know)

[JeyciKon]

1. What do you think the theme of the next Warframe will be?

minerals~cristal

 

 

 

5 and 6:(trials)

do it once or twice, thats fun, after that it is just like watching the same movie over and over again.....BORING, nothing new about it, no fun in it at all.

Edited June 1, 2017 by JeyciKon