This Game is Boring

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 09.06.2017 at 4:09 PM, AlendasNaro said:

Thing is. Curiosity is sometimes the thing that can drive you forward and does curiosity need direction? Not set by the game at least. Curiosity is what drives players to explore things.

 This one got me good. Haven't laughed this hard in a while. Open world games create a media for the players' natural curiosity to expand. But it's always a part of the gameplay and directions where that curiosity goes are 100% calculated by the devs and could be listed for any game - because devs use players' curiosity as a game design tool. That's what all Bethesda based on. You have a lot of directions to go in that game, but the expierience is highly structured and the environment is 100% controlled by the inner game's progression. 
 There is no curiosity outside the intent of the game's designer - unless it's a search for bugs and exploits. 
 For a game like Warframe - for any grindy game in fact, - you can learn anything there is to know about it in a month. There's no much place for curiosity here. Warframe is a gameplay-driven game. Horde shooter with space magic. And playing that horde shooter people spend the most time in the game. The problem with current warframe build tho and why it is boring is that the very core motivational structure of the game is broken. We don't need to put effort inro our playthrough because it is not required of us by the core gameplay and never rewarded. 
 Fissures, kuva missions - uninterractive parcour simulators with fixed objectives. Trials and Sorties - unchallenging (sometimes broken) short game modes behind a huge 24 hour timer wall.
 Endless missions are the only gameplay mode that reqires time and effort, and allows mechanical curiosity to flourish, but we get no added value for spending time in them - so technically endless missions are an in-game form of fooling around and wasting time. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

14 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

This is a major problem with the community when it come sot any new features that are not fully developed. They tell DE to just stop and focus on the little things, then they complain about the lack of content.

We Need To Keep In Mind
This game was not released as a finished product. 
It launched with the initial funds of the founding packs and then from there they can continue to earn revenue so then they can work on the game.
That leaves many areas in the game incomplete. 
We have an intro and then we are left with no real sense of direction. Because the game as it stands right now is not a complete product and is more of an outline of the project.

They are not a AAA studio so they don't have the resources right now to simply create the whole game within the next two years. Development is going to be slower.

Warframe has a good foundation, hence why so many people like it, now they are working on building from there.
I think that the community needs to really understand that there is not alot to do besides grind because DE still has a considerable amount of ground to cover


That being said I do not think BETA will ever really end.
DE have put themselves into this corner of having to constantly change and evolve to satisfy the player base, while at the same time trying to create the full vision they had in mind.

Personally I would like DE to shift gears and focus on creating a complete product rather than remain in constant development for the next 5 years.
Focus on the meat and bones of a game this scale. I also think that is what this community needs to do as well. 
Things like: 
-Archwing
-Operator/Focus
-Enemy variety to increase combat variety 
-Tile set designs
-Boss fights 
-NPCs
-Story (Main, Side quests, etc.)

We will have to wait for Tenno-Con because they clearly have a lot of things they want to show us but are holding back for now.

NOTE: I have seen DE talk about these things in Dev sessions and Steve's twitch account, but I think these should be in the forefront rather than new toys for the player base

Beta-san? Is that you again?

Spoiler

On 08.06.2017 at 1:01 AM, Iccotak said:

Understandable frustration but you must understand something first.

Warframe is still in BETA.
It launched with the initial funds of the founding packs and then from there they can continue to earn revenue so then they can work on the game.

Many areas in the game are incomplete, there is no end game because there is no real beginning or middle either.

We have an intro and then we are left with no real sense of direction. Because the game as it stands right now is not a complete product and is more of an outline of the project.

They are not a AAA studio so they don't have the resources right now to simply create the whole game within the next two years. Development is going to be slower.

Warframe has a good foundation, hence why so many people like it, now they are working on building from there.

I think that the community needs to really understand that there is no end game because DE has not reached that point yet.

Page 12

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

DE have put themselves into this corner of having to constantly change and evolve to satisfy the player base, while at the same time trying to create the full vision they had in mind.

Being in Beta is not a problem for DE. They're perfectly fine with that. It doesn't affect anything. It's not worth the bother to release Warframe, when it's not going to change anything neither for them, nor for the players. That's why "This game was not released as a finished product." - is just not a very good argument. Warframe was technically released when open beta started, So it's technically a finished product already - constantly changing simply because of the nature of this kind of games.

[Iccotak]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

That's why "This game was not released as a finished product." - is just not a very good argument. Warframe was technically released when open beta started, So it's technically a finished product already - constantly changing simply because of the nature of this kind of games.

DE has openly acknowledged that this is not a complete product and is a work in progress 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

27 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

We will have to wait for Tenno-Con because they clearly have a lot of things they want to show us but are holding back for now.

It's just gonna be another quest. Maybe another deluxe skin announcement. A couple of new weapons and enemies. As usual. And a mechanical dog - forgot about that.

Edited June 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, Iccotak said:

DE has openly acknowledged that this is not a complete product and is a work in progress 

it's the same excuse as "endgame is what you make of it". Don't fall for that. 

[Iccotak]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

it's the same excuse as "endgame is what you make of it". Don't fall for that. 

I don't think there is an end game, because, again, I do not see Warframe as a complete game.

[Iccotak]

On 6/9/2017 at 5:09 AM, DrBorris said:

I should just edit this into my post above but I'm lazy so...

 

Rant incoming: The community doesn't know best, and the community really needs to learn that. Damage 3.0 died because people are afraid of change, Archwing is stuck where it is because most players will never accept it, and in general most reworks are made with the "must add content" criteria because that is all the community ever begs for. This game has a Beta tag for a reason, it is supposed to mean that DE is able to go back and change stuff, but the community doesn't like that. The community mostly begs for new toys, and responds the best to new toys. Just look at the lead up to TWW. Specters of the Rail was a massive, well-needed rework to the star chart and Prime farming, but the update was poorly received because there was little content. 

The community has put DE in an awkward place, we beg for reworks but only respond to content. No wonder DE is so hesitant with things. 

/rant

^^THIS, SO MUCH THIS.^^

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

I don't think there is an end game, because, again, I do not see Warframe as a complete game.

Endgame is not meant to be a literal end of the game. If you want a comparison, for most MMORPG games endgame is the PVP after you grind the top tier gear. Endgame is just a game mode that requires top tier gear and is designed for continuous (endless) enjoyment for veterans, as well as a goal for the new players. In case of warframe "endgame" is basically synonymous to "core gameplay" - and that's what this game is lacking. 
 Warframe is lacking an extrinsically motivated core gameplay which emplements all (or at least most) of the mechanics we have in the game right now.

Edited June 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

^^THIS, SO MUCH THIS.^^

This problem wouldn't have existed, if DE were a part of the player community and actually knew how their game ticks. They don't. Steve doesn't play Warframe. He doesn't have an account he would call his own - like we do. That's the main issue here. They just don't play their own game. It's impossible to design a good game working like that.

[Iccotak]

6 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

teve doesn't play Warframe. He doesn't have an account he would call his own - like we do. That's the main issue here. They just don't play their own game.

What are you talking about? They play their game all the time.
'Prime Time' is Rebecca's and Megan's account.
DE Steve Sinclair has two accounts. On Twitch we can see him play on his new one which he uses to see from the beginner player experience.
he'll take questions while playing and take notes when he notices problems

Edited June 11, 2017 by Iccotak

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, Iccotak said:

'Prime Time' is Rebecca's and Megan's account.

Not devs. Community managers.

1 minute ago, Iccotak said:

DE Steve Sinclair has two accounts. On Twitch we can see him play on his new one which he uses to see from the beginner player experience.

I've seen how Steve plays and that's the primary reason why I came to a conclusion that he doesn't really ever play Warframe - it's like he sees the game for the first time. Also streams on twitch stopped a few months ago, as far as I know. 

[Iccotak]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Not devs. Community managers.

I've seen how Steve plays and that's the primary reason why I came to a conclusion that he doesn't really ever play Warframe - it's like he sees the game for the first time. Also streams on twitch stopped a few months ago, as far as I know. 

The Devs are there with the Community managers.
And The Devs do play the game. They have said this on Dev streams.

Also Steve did not stop a few months ago, he stopped around a month and a half ago. He's busy keeping secrets for Tenno-Con

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

yeah. Did anyone bring up the steam charts in this thread yet?

DE: 哈哈哈哈哈哈... We reached the second base two years ago.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, Iccotak said:

The Devs are there with the Community managers.

That's probably the extend of their gameplay expierience.

1 minute ago, Iccotak said:

And The Devs do play the game. They have said this on Dev streams.

*chuckle* I heard that too, yeah.

2 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Also Steve did not stop a few months ago, he stopped around a month and a half ago.

Yeah, month and a half ago.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

15 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

It's just gonna be another quest. Maybe another deluxe skin announcement. A couple of new weapons and enemies. As usual. And a mechanical dog - forgot about that.

Wow. If you are not even looking forward to what will be announced at Tennocon you're done, seriously time for you to move on. This hey DE I've completed everything in Warframe, magically transmogrify it into a different game crap isn't happening and I would be annoyed if it did. If you still want to support DE, maybe try their new game. Appreciate Warframe for what it is and enjoy the incremental changes, and if you no longer can, there's no shame in that, you had a good run, don't stick around becoming a negative Nancy. 

[Iccotak]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

*chuckle* I heard that too, yeah.

Do you think that DE is lying to you?

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

That's probably the extend of their gameplay expierience.

*chuckle* I heard that too, yeah.

Yeah, month and a half ago.

You know what's more boring than playing the game you made by yourself? Playing the game with skinner box, rng, grind walls and many incentives for microtransaction that you made by yourself.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Wow. If you are not even looking forward to what will be announced at Tennocon you're done, seriously time for you to move on. This hey DE I've completed everything in Warframe, magically transmogrify it into a different game crap isn't happening and I would be annoyed if it did. If you still want to support DE, maybe try their new game. Appreciate Warframe for what it is and enjoy the incremental changes, and if you no longer can, there's no shame in that, you had a good run, don't stick around becoming a negative Nancy. 

Ugh. This again. I already deleted Warframe 20 times if not more. I have a habit. I love this game, but it is broken after Void 2.0. Yes, it could be a "me" issue. Or it could be a real ingame issue that I see, and you just didn't notice yet for one reason or another. Have you ever considered that kind of possibility?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 minutes ago, Iccotak said:

Do you think that DE is lying to you?

I'm not gonna comment on that xD

4 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

You know what's more boring than playing the game you made by yourself? Playing the game with skinner box, rng, grind walls and many incentives for microtransaction that you made by yourself.

This is golden xD I agree. But maybe - just maybe, - there is a way to actually make your own game fun? Like, to design it to be fun and rewarding? Cause, you know, you're supposed to be a game developer. And your own taste is the only taste you could rely on in the end, you know. If you don't want to play your own game, why would anyone want? 

[Volinus7]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I'm not gonna comment on that xD

This is golden xD I agree. But maybe - just maybe, - there is a way to actually make your own game fun? Like, to design it to be fun and rewarding? Cause, you know, you're supposed to be a game developer. And your own taste is the only taste you could rely on in the end, you know. If you don't want to play your own game, why would anyone want? 

Maybe your standard is higher than 95% of player base that said "this game is fine". Or it's just a taste matter? 

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Maybe your standard is higher than 95% of player base that said "this game is fine". Or it's just a taste matter? 

It might be. Or maybe I'm just a part of the majority that doesn't play this game anymore.

Edited June 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Chewarette]

If you needed 3-4 years to figure out that this game is boring, I have a wonderful news : it means it isn't.

That just means you stopped having fun on Warframe. And that's fine. Everyone, at one point, will have this breakdown. And this day they'll have 2 ways to go. First one is to assume/get over it and just switch to another game, more suitable to your tastes. Second one is to complain about the current game's state and requesting it to be completely overhauled into a complete new game because "Hey I've tried [Insert random game here] and it's better, so plz align".

You chose the second path. Even though this game is perfectly fine and you proved it : you played it for years without finding it "boring". That's the goal of every game. No game is eternal.

Your gaming tastes are evolving along your own personal evolution. Don't ask the game to adapt to you.

The simple fact you're mentioning that BDO is a killer game with the argument of ... "fishing" shows you may be not liking the F/TPS genre any more. And that's perfectly fine, it cannot satisfy the whole planet.

[DrBorris]

12 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

There's no way to know. I kept my thread up for a week straight. But I doubt if DE core devs ever bother to read the forums or even play their own game. My previous thread was even more salty than the last one and just got locked.

I just have to admit that forum is here for venting. Not for communication with the devs. I guess its the same in every game.

Okay, I know this is not going to end well for me, but for Pete's sake I thought I was starting to be too doomy and gloomy. 

 

My voice in the Forums is... Inconsistent, at least on the surface. I will go from being a "white knight" and being called a shill to threads like this where I show a complete lack of faith in DE to work on thighs that are,  admittedly in only my opinion, of more pressing importance than even a Focus rework. I will be very quick to throw a tempur tantrum about how the community is being hypocritical crybabies but then later commend the community for being a great place for ideas to come to light. 

 

However, despite being inconsistent on the surface, I haven't lost faith that DE loves this game and wants it to be the best it can be. They play their game, not just Rebecca, who has shown on many occasion to be a "victim" to the meta when missions require it, but she also has a, IMO, more balanced view of the game and plays it for fun first, reward second. There is also the overachiever Glen and I am sure countless employees behind the scenes that play the game regularly. I also think that, despite what many say, Scott has a pretty good idea of how we play Warframe. The problem is that often he doesn't like how the meta stands. 

And as for reading the Forums, are you serious? Do you really not see how inspired many changes and additions are inspired by the community? I personally think DE doesn't have to be so standoffish when "stealing" ideas from the Forums, but we can look at any rework and see how DE took inspiration from us. Yes, even Oberon's rework. 

 

I'm rambling, sorry, here's the point. I have nothing against what you are saying, everyone on a fair Forum has a voice, but your pessimistic and borderline whiny tone is not helping anybody. If you come in stomping that nothing you do/say will change anything, what do you think is going to happen? 

The forum isn't for venting, it is a forum. Threads like this are a place where ideas and mindsets are being exchanged and civil conversation is being had. I won't lie, I doubt a thread like this will cause any changes on its own, but that is more because it is a conversation between members of the community here and less so a suggestion dump. Threads like this where we can inspire new thoughts and ideas within the community, one thread of conversation can spawn dozens of concepts and ideas to inspire DE. 

 

And on your views of endgame, I completely agree. PvP is the only true endgame, and that is why so much is riding on Clan reworks. There is not enough "meta game" as it stands, and competition between clans could be a start. Other concepts is something like a perpetual gradivus dilemma through reworked invasions or maybe just a more robust leader board. Whenever someone says something that is played for a content reward is endgame I wonder if they understand the meaning that of the term. It does not mean that matter how good the "gameplay" is (and I to this day argue it is very good despite its faults), without some purpose (end game) it will get monotonous and boring. 

 

And you said some stuff about "its a beta" so I'll use that as an excuse to make this point one more time. DE needs to treat Warframe LESS like a finished game and more like a beta. They should be more willing to knock down core systems, even if it is at the expense of players sometimes, because without some more fundamental changes the game will be forever held back by four year old problems. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

If you needed 3-4 years to figure out that this game is boring, I have a wonderful news : it means it isn't.

That just means you stopped having fun on Warframe. And that's fine. Everyone, at one point, will have this breakdown. And this day they'll have 2 ways to go. First one is to assume/get over it and just switch to another game, more suitable to your tastes. Second one is to complain about the current game's state and requesting it to be completely overhauled into a complete new game because "Hey I've tried [Insert random game here] and it's better, so plz align".

You chose the second path. Even though this game is perfectly fine and you proved it : you played it for years without finding it "boring". That's the goal of every game. No game is eternal.

Your gaming tastes are evolving along your own personal evolution. Don't ask the game to adapt to you.

The simple fact you're mentioning that BDO is a killer game with the argument of ... "fishing" shows you may be not liking the F/TPS genre any more. And that's perfectly fine, it cannot satisfy the whole planet.

This is so vary true on so many levels.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

I'll stop now. This overflowing optimism just isn't for me. People rush to protect things they love and abandon critical thinking in the process. Even though it's doing more harm than good. If your momma tells you that you're handsome, it doesn't mean you're objectively are. "Positive" part of warframe community is just like that. They are willing to ignore negatives and take other people's opinions as personal insult while cutting devs too much slack for their own good. It's never gonna end well.

Edited June 11, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo