[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[KiltsAreManlySkirts]

8 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I really hope you're not trying to downplay +200% Crit chance to all allies within 50 metres. Do you understand how strong that is? Please don't embarrass yourself.

I'm not trying to downplay one of the most fun abilities to mess with ingame, however I'd argue that as a support (offensive or not) he needs more utility beyond a stun and more damage.

Otherwise what is his "purpose", you could make some fun synergies and he is a fun solo frame but where does he fit in in squad?

(Also thanks for your concern I am oh so red in embarrassment)

Edit: And if his purpose is to increase the squad's DPS why does the buff that requires energy and all my built up shields not affect my teammates?

Edited July 5, 2017 by frokiller
Adding on to the previous idea.

[ichiofmany]

>.> I mean i'd have to go thru old posts on Trinity's energy vampire and Hydroids plifering swarm but they had the same problem i have with thurible as far as not being conductive to teamplay. It doesnt make sense that they would feel this is a good design to only work off his kills when it went over so well the last 2 times but I guess they want to see some people voice their opinion over this new take on the same design yet again.

 

That being said it should go without say, but I dont always say it, that I love the game and im grateful for the work they put into it.

Edited July 5, 2017 by ichiofmany
changed "well last" to "well the last"

[KiltsAreManlySkirts]

2 minutes ago, ichiofmany said:

That being said it should go without say, but I dont always say it, that I love the game and im grateful for the work they put into it.

I too love the game, there isn't anything quite like it, and that is exactly why I want to see it succeed. Warframe is in this weird situation of not choosing to stick to the Tactical Shooter or the Horde Shooter theme, it's a bit of both and it does it more harm than good.

[Jimmeh420]

25 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

That is good. That is very, very good. It's really not supposed to be on par with EV in any way, since Trinity cannot apply CC and cannot grant the team +200% bonus Critical Chance. Harrow is an offensive support, so he's not allowed to have anywhere near the same restorative effects as our dedicated restorative support, lest she be made utterly obsolete. If you want piles of energy for no effort at all, we already have a Warframe that can do that for you.

BUT she can give instant heals and 75% damage reduction whenever the F*** she wants within 50m. She can refresh it as well. Tell me. why the hell should Harrow have to put in more effort in order to get much less result? How the hell is that fair? It would be fair if Trinity also didn't have all this other crap in her kit. Why can't my change of allies kills giving a small amount of energy restore but Harrow's kills giving the current amount be brought in? He still wouldn't be comparable to her in energy restore but I would be happy with him because I wouldn't be screwed by my team thrashing the mission. Let us assume that Harrow gets 25% of the kills. His energy restore is still nowhere near Trinity's and that's not including the time you spend charging up Thurible and spent in his 2 and 4 animations OR allies going out of range. He still is nowhere near Trinity and keep in mind that she has her 4 and even more damage reduction and proc immune from her 3.

Also, don't even talk about making Trinity obsolete. Harrow isn't going to do that even with my beforementioned buffs. Please don't embarass yourself.

 

17 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I really hope you're not trying to downplay +200% Crit chance to all allies within 50 metres. Do you understand how strong that is? Please don't embarrass yourself.

He didn't say the buff is bad. He said he only consistently gives 1 buff. 1 consistent buff as a support is a joke.

[SenorClipClop]

10 minutes ago, frokiller said:

I'd argue that as a support (offensive or not) he needs more utility beyond a stun and more damage

I'd argue he doesn't. He heals the team, he regenerates their energy, he buffs them considerably, and he even provides some multiple-enemy crowd control.

Despite his somewhat old-fashioned design, Harrow kind of breaks he mold on what a "support" is, if your idea of a support is a character who aids others with their fights in lieu of doing his or her own fighting. Instead of the normal mechanics of a support, where you're rewarded for watching over your team, Harrow is rewarded for fighting the sh*t out of the enemy while his supportive benefits help the team passively. Harrow could be dubbed as a "carry-support" (if you play League of Legends, think Brand or Karma).

If it helps, you could try not thinking about Harrow as an offensive version of Trinity, but instead as a more helpful version of Mesa.

 

2 minutes ago, Jimmeh420 said:

He said he only consistently gives 1 buff. 1 consistent buff as a support is a joke.

Lol, bud, Trinity also has only one team buff, the DR from Blessing.

 

[SenorClipClop]

7 minutes ago, Jimmeh420 said:

I would be happy with him because I wouldn't be screwed by my team thrashing the mission.

 

44 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

If your allies are killing everything before you even get the chance, it's either because:

A: You are not involving yourself, so roll up your ninja robot sleeves and get in there; or,

B: your squad is far too overpowered for the mission, in which case your presence in that mission is completely meaningless no matter what Warframe you're using.

 

[GA-Bulletproof]

Hi, i would really like to see Harrows Penance work the same way his Thurible does. But instead channeling energy he channels his shields.

Would be nice :)

[Tesseract7777]

No. 

Harrow is going to keep his Penance up the vast majority of the time, especially with the new duration changes, so this is hardly needed anyway. 

But more to the point, channeling abilities (even if you were draining shields) mean you can't gain energy while channeling, and Harrow spends most of his time in penance, which would mean he wouldn't be able to get the benefits of thurible because he was always channeling. 

I don't want my main defense constantly drained either, I prefer the control of just being able to take off chunks when I feel it is safe. 

I don't think this is a good idea. 

[GA-Bulletproof]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

No. 

Harrow is going to keep his Penance up the vast majority of the time, especially with the new duration changes, so this is hardly needed anyway. 

But more to the point, channeling abilities (even if you were draining shields) mean you can't gain energy while channeling, and Harrow spends most of his time in penance, which would mean he wouldn't be able to get the benefits of thurible because he was always channeling. 

I don't want my main defense constantly drained either, I prefer the control of just being able to take off chunks when I feel it is safe. 

I don't think this is a good idea. 

I think your misunderstanding what i am proposing. If he channels his 2 just like he does his 3, after he is finished channeling he can receiver energy again just like with his Thurible. So your shields wouldn't be drained constantly.

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

I think your misunderstanding what i am proposing. If he channels his 2 just like he does his 3, after he is finished channeling he can receiver energy again just like with his Thurible. So your shields wouldn't be drained constantly.

If I see what you are saying, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you want Harrow to slowly drain shields over time, and then when you press 2 again, it gives you the buff and stops draining? Because I see a couple issues here. 

1) The idea of the ability conceptually, I thought, was that it is a sacrifice (original placeholder name), so only giving up as much of your shields as you want sounds like nice control, but doesn't really fit the concept. 

2) Overall this really slows things down a lot, is this really better? If we don't get the buff started until we are done draining shields, we could be channeling shield drain for some time, even 10 seconds is an eternity in a fast paced Warframe mission. As of now, to cast Penance or stack duration, it takes like two seconds. 

With your change, you would have more control over how much shield you use, but it would easily take like 10+ seconds or even a lot more with max overshields, unless I am once again misunderstanding what you are proposing. 

[Trichouette]

4 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

I think your misunderstanding what i am proposing. If he channels his 2 just like he does his 3, after he is finished channeling he can receiver energy again just like with his Thurible. So your shields wouldn't be drained constantly.

But it's the POINT of the ability.

To give away your shield. It's a sacrifice, harrow is hurting himself. it's an "all in" ability.

[Ceryk]

5 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

I think your misunderstanding what i am proposing. If he channels his 2 just like he does his 3, after he is finished channeling he can receiver energy again just like with his Thurible. So your shields wouldn't be drained constantly.

He's already got one ability that needs to be channeled, adding a second one would just annoy people to be perfectly blunt about the situation.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Ceryk

[KiltsAreManlySkirts]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

Harrow could be dubbed as a "carry-support" (if you play League of Legends, think Brand or Karma).

Let me "Lol, bud" you there. For starters, vaaaastly different games, and second Brand is not a support, he is played as one because he has one stun and massive damage, that's it, it's the exact same situation as Annie or Vel Koz. Karma however is a support, why? She can shield her teammates, give them movement speed, root and slow the enemy team and has one very damaging ability, she has plenty of utility unlike the aforementioned champions.

You say Harrow regenerates energy and health but he can only do that by damaging enemies, it's a unnecessary restriction that turns his abilities unreliable.

Not to mention that there is no reason that the fire rate buff can't affect the squad, you are sacrificing the shields you built up in their entirety and some energy to buff yourself and unless you used any sort health increasing mod (you will most likely use primed vigor) or combined it with your 4 I doubt you will get much use out of it with only 300 hp.

[GA-Bulletproof]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

If I see what you are saying, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you want Harrow to slowly drain shields over time, and then when you press 2 again, it gives you the buff and stops draining? Because I see a couple issues here. 

1) The idea of the ability conceptually, I thought, was that it is a sacrifice (original placeholder name), so only giving up as much of your shields as you want sounds like nice control, but doesn't really fit the concept. 

2) Overall this really slows things down a lot, is this really better? If we don't get the buff started until we are done draining shields, we could be channeling shield drain for some time, even 10 seconds is an eternity in a fast paced Warframe mission. As of now, to cast Penance or stack duration, it takes like two seconds. 

With your change, you would have more control over how much shield you use, but it would easily take like 10+ seconds or even a lot more with max overshields, unless I am once again misunderstanding what you are proposing. 

Yeah draining shields over time would take longer but in return u could get the buff u need to heal for a shorter period of time.

It is still a sacrifice. Just not as big as the one before and in return the duration is lower on penance. Because even on level 100+ i never really started using penance except for when some proc cought me. So u get capped within 5 sec. what are you doing with the remaining minute where u probably already rebuilt your overshield?

Even a sacrifice as in 1k shields per activation would be better and then just make it stack to make sense. 

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, GA-Bulletproof said:

Yeah draining shields over time would take longer but in return u could get the buff u need to heal for a shorter period of time.

It is still a sacrifice. Just not as big as the one before and in return the duration is lower on penance. Because even on level 100+ i never really started using penance except for when some proc cought me. So u get capped within 5 sec. what are you doing with the remaining minute where u probably already rebuilt your overshield?

Even a sacrifice as in 1k shields per activation would be better and then just make it stack to make sense. 

Have you seen today's hotfix and the newest Harrow changes? 

It's not clear to me that you have or not, from this post. 

The biggest issue here is really simple -- we are slowing down greatly a frame that already suffers from slow casting speeds, as a major issue, and channeling where he can do nothing but move around, etc. We don't need any more of that. 

 

[GA-Bulletproof]

3 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Have you seen today's hotfix and the newest Harrow changes? 

It's not clear to me that you have or not, from this post. 

The biggest issue here is really simple -- we are slowing down greatly a frame that already suffers from slow casting speeds, as a major issue, and channeling where he can do nothing but move around, etc. We don't need any more of that. 

 

I have seen that changes. I would still prefer my solution. Just because i dont need to heal myself and teammates for 120sec when i only need 5-10. But i guess everyone prefers different playstyles

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, GA-Bulletproof said:

I have seen that changes. I would still prefer my solution. Just because i dont need to heal myself and teammates for 120sec when i only need 5-10. But i guess everyone prefers different playstyles

Why would you not want to keep up the fire rate, attack speed and reload speed buffs all the time, if you could? Why would you not want that extra benefit, whether you need healing or not? 

You know Penance does more than just lifesteal right? 

[Ryme]

Seems like the issue is that the OP doesn't want to sacrifice all his shields and put himself at risk. He would rather shave off a little bit of his shields for just enough healing to counter bleed and toxin procs, and not actually expose his redbar to direct damage from other sources.

The counter to his suggestion seems to be that the OP's suggestion would put too long a delay on the ability, so that the OP is essentially sacrificing the effectiveness of the support ability for his own safety.

The question really is what degree of the risk/reward DE meant for the skill to embody. 

[GA-Bulletproof]

18 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Why would you not want to keep up the fire rate, attack speed and reload speed buffs all the time, if you could? Why would you not want that extra benefit, whether you need healing or not? 

You know Penance does more than just lifesteal right? 

Because at the point where you really need those buffs sacrificing all shields can be more of a downside. A good moded weapon + Harrow covenant will do the trick just fine until lvl 100 and after that it will just leave him to be 1 Hit killed. But that's just my way of looking at it 

[GA-Bulletproof]

2 minutes ago, Ryme said:

Seems like the issue is that the OP doesn't want to sacrifice all his shields and put himself at risk. He would rather shave off a little bit of his shields for just enough healing to counter bleed and toxin procs, and not actually expose his redbar to direct damage from other sources.

The counter to his suggestion seems to be that the OP's suggestion would put too long a delay on the ability, so that the OP is essentially sacrificing the effectiveness of the support ability for his own safety.

The question really is what degree of the risk/reward DE meant for the skill to embody. 

Nicely said 

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, GA-Bulletproof said:

Because at the point where you really need those buffs sacrificing all shields can be more of a downside. A good moded weapon + Harrow covenant will do the trick just fine until lvl 100 and after that it will just leave him to be 1 Hit killed. But that's just my way of looking at it 

But if I can sacrifice them once every 120 seconds and have that fire rate/life steal/reload speed/attack speed buff that whole 120 seconds, why would I ever need to worry with how it works now. I just don't see the problem here. Sacrifice those shields while you have Covenant active, you are protected. You'll have your shields back up before Covenant protection is gone with Condemns help, and get some cc while you are at it. 

I just don't see why not keep Sacrifice up, which is easy to do. It's not like dropping the shields is a huge risk when you only have to do it once every two minutes, and you can be invuln while doing so. 

Edit: And the risk reward DE planned is it is supposed to be a full on sacrifice, an all in ability. And that is what it is. 

They would rather double the duration cap then change the fact that you lose all your shields, which was what they did today. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[GA-Bulletproof]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

But if I can sacrifice them once every 120 seconds and have that fire rate/life steal/reload speed/attack speed buff that whole 120 seconds, why would I ever need to worry with how it works now. I just don't see the problem here. Sacrifice those shields while you have Covenant active, you are protected. You'll have your shields back up before Covenant protection is gone with Condemns help, and get some cc while you are at it. 

I just don't see why not keep Sacrifice up, which is easy to do. It's not like dropping the shields is a huge risk when you only have to do it once every two minutes, and you can be invuln while doing so. 

Because that moment you sacrifice your shields you just know that corrupted crewman will end it for you faster than you want it to. 

[Ryme]

I agree with Tesseract. I feel that Penance is the only ability that incorporates any element of the risk/reward theme that the frame is supposed to embody. If having to push 1 a few times after pushing 2 is too much of a risk, then just don't push 2 to begin with. Own it or don't play the frame if the scrutiny is intolerable. There are plenty of other frames that can pump out healing and aren't based on the theme of self risk or sacrifice.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Ryme

[That1Cactus]

1 hour ago, frokiller said:

An offensive support that gives one buff to his teammates?

On a side note, cactus, you are wrong.  I play on a potato so excuse the low framerate.

 

Well like I said before it was a personal experience that teammates were gaining from their kills. Either way I'm also killing enough as Harrow to give me team a ton of energy despite the OP's claims.

[Chipputer]

Harrow is not a case of, "git gud," at all. He's a case of the characters who he's supporting having to babysit the support and dance around what the support does.

You want energy? Better let the support, who is supposed to be giving you buffs to help you kill, do all the killing that he's supposed to help you do.
You want health? Better make sure you keep one guy alive in the area so the Harrow can shoot him otherwise you're getting nothing out of it (this is the same issue Equinox's heal has, by the way, except at least Equinox can build up a heal from anyone within range and not just from her own kills).
You want crit? Better make sure that nobody has used any CC on anything for a bit because you gotta make sure you take damage so you can deal damage back. Including the Harrow himself, by the way.

Healing that has no extra benefits gets outscaled quickly. Harrow only buffing himself alongside his healing capabilities completely ruins the ability. Give his allies the buffs he gets at 50% efficiency. Boom. There you go.
Energy restore that relies on kills gets outscaled, particularly when you have to pick and choose who you let the support kill while the enemies get ever stronger. Reminder that using CC on those enemies reduces the effectiveness of Harrow's ultimate ability. As TTK goes up, Harrow's return on investment in Thurible goes down.

Only his 1st and 4th have utility that remains consistently useful. Everything else gets outscaled. As long as Trinity has pure utility she will remain consistently the most used support frame. This is not, at all, unlike Loki who has a kit that is literally nothing but utility and, therefore, he remained top dog (Loki Master Race, etc, etc) for ages as a result, only getting dethroned when a frame that could stealth better, while still dealing ridiculous damage, came along.