[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[NightmareT12]

Eh... I very much like it better as it is.

[-NTB-Cris0407]

1 minute ago, Ocerkin said:

was i the only one who noticed when they demo'd him reb had some kind of god mode on as she played? i saw harrows health go to what should have been 0 several times on stream and then instantly jump back to full without her doing anything to change it, no way penance was pulling that off in a million years

Hell yeah everyone forget about it too...

What was that...

[-N7-Leonhart]

50 shields per second sounds awfully good......like 2x better that it is now 

[kouji86]

His 2 and 3 are completely counter intuitive, can't use 2 because my survivability has just vanished down the drain, my 3 why would I use it, I'll save more energy not using it and if I have QT then boy, not touching that button at all, DE please play your own game, he doesn't fit in anywhere and needs changes ASAP which will never happen anytime at all.

Edited June 30, 2017 by kouji86

[HalfDarkShadow]

I'm not sure if I exactly follow. Could you mind explaining to me the details of the exact issue? I understand it's about the cap on his ability, but how much could someone bring it up too before the chance? I only had played with him very little so I'm not sure of all the details for him yet. I only remember when I have Redirection equipped, and at max overshields (about more than 3200 ish), I was only able to get somewhere 60+ seconds.

I am reading the wiki now, and according to it, you could continually use it to stack up to the 60 second cap; since you don't need to wait for the timer to run out, couldn't you just use it again whenever you want, especially since the nature of the Warframe, you'll always have plenty of energy anyway?

Apologies, I want to exactly understand where you or others are coming from, and I think I get it but any clarification is appreciated!

---

1 hour ago, Cris0407 said:

This cap 60S is bad idea, you'll always forget to recharge, fall out of the map=restart, nullifer=restart. (Why there are always caps?)

edit: put my response to this quote in a 'Spoiler' tab to clean it up a bit and to not have a giant wall of text lol.

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Cris0407 said:

you'll always forget to recharge

Regarding point number 1, that's really on you (well, every player) and not the game exactly. Even before this cap, you still needed to keep tabs on the ability anyway so it's really a matter of paying attention.
But there are somethings the game could make things better (for example:) I just wish they could put the timer where the buffs are at the top like they do with Titania's buffs. Diverting your eyes to the bottom of the screen can somewhat be an issue when you're in the middle of a defensive wave; so because it's not near by where your eyes are focused on (via the middle of the screen), it doesn't help that we can forget to check sometimes.

1 hour ago, Cris0407 said:

fall out of the map=restart, nullifer=restart. (Why there are always caps?)

Regarding your comment about the map restart, gosh you don't know how much this borderline irks me ingame. Especially when I'm Warframes like Titania, Equinox or Chroma and how the game (I would argue) punishes you if you bullet jump too high or end up being knocked back from an arson eximus' fire-explosion which pushes you off a cliff. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough times where I have the question the design choice for this. You build up your buffs for these Warframes and moment you walk a tad to far off somewhere and get re-spawned, you loose it all.

Don't even get me started on Zephyr. Since she's my most played Warframe, I can't the name the number of times where I use energy to activate Turbulence, Tailwind (or hell just bulletjumping) immediately after to where I want to go, just to end up restarting again and wasting more energy to re-activate Turbulence.

Spoiler

Speaking of which, the only times I can only think of that I want to jump off the map is when I use an ability like Tornadoes and I want to get rid of them. But even then, why don't they just make it toggleable? I'm completely fine with it on a timer, but just give us the option to press 4 again to turn it off early so I don't have to desperately run off 3 and a half tilessets away just so I can Tailwind up and respawn.

I can promise you it would solve more than half of the complaints people have with that ability. We don't need it for 45+ seconds, we just need it for a moment to stop enemies from firing at us so we can revive our downed teammates.

Edited June 30, 2017 by HalfDarkShadow
cleaned up post; added 'Spoiler' tab

[RafaelFuchs]

In my opinion, he seems a tad lacking. He's squishy and a very selfish 'support'. Overall, he's a good concept, but just needs a few adjustments to make his kit play well in teams and solo. Right now, his kit is just disappointing as you stare at the potential it holds. 

 

 

Passive: It's a solid concept, but shields are painfully weak. How to fix that? Not a clue on where to start. Maybe make his armor value affect shields as well? 

#1: Affected area is quite small. It should be a wide arc, not a narrow path smaller than the tightest of hallways. It also needs to be able to proc the shield gain off enemies already chained. Duration and range are fine.

 

#2: This should just be a toggle that inhibits the natural shield regen and drains a low amount of energy, but still able to gain energy from orbs and abilities. The new 60s cap on it is totally unnecessary and a step in the wrong direction too.

 

#3: Faster buildup of regen. You're stuck in animation for a little too long. Energy regenerated should proc from all allies too, not just himself. 

 

#4: Speed the animation up by about 30% and it'll be perfect. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by RafaelFuchs

[-NTB-Cris0407]

7 minutes ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

I'm not sure if I exactly follow. Could you mind explaining to me the details of the exact issue? I understand it's about the cap on his ability, but how much could someone bring it up too before the chance? I only had played with him very little so I'm not sure of all the details for him yet. I only remember when I have Redirection equipped, and at max overshields (about more than 3200 ish), I was only able to get somewhere 60+ seconds.

I am reading the wiki now, and according to it, you could continually use it to stack up to the 60 second cap; since you don't need to wait for the timer to run out, couldn't you just use it again whenever you want, especially since the nature of the Warframe, you'll always have plenty of energy anyway?

Apologies, I want to exactly understand where you or others are coming from, and I think I get it but any clarification is appreciated!

---

Regarding point number 1, that's really on you (well, every player) and not the game exactly. Even before this cap, you still needed to keep tabs on the ability anyway so it's really a matter of paying attention.
But there are somethings the game could make things better (for example:) I just wish they could put the timer where the buffs are at the top like they do with Titania's buffs. Diverting your eyes to the bottom of the screen can somewhat be an issue when you're in the middle of a defensive wave; so because it's not near by where your eyes are focused on (via the middle of the screen), it doesn't help that we can forget to check sometimes.

Regarding your comment about the map restart, gosh you don't know how much this borderline irks me ingame. Especially when I'm Warframes like Titania, Equinox or Chroma and how the game (I would argue) punishes you if you bullet jump too high or end up being knocked back from an arson eximus' fire-explosion which pushes you off a cliff. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough times where I have the question the design choice for this. You build up your buffs for these Warframes and moment you walk a tad to far off somewhere and get re-spawned, you loose it all.

Don't even get me started on Zephyr. Since she's my most played Warframe, I can't the name the number of times where I use energy to activate Turbulence, Tailwind, just to end up restarting again and wasting more energy to re-activate Turbulence.
 

  Hide contents

Speaking of which, the only times I can only think of that I want to jump off the map is when I use an ability like Tornadoes and I want to get rid of them. But even then, why don't they just make it toggleable? I'm completely fine with it on a timer, but just give us the option to press 4 again to turn it off early so I don't have to desperately run off 3 and a half tilessets away just so I can Tailwind up and re-spawned. I can promise you it would solve more than half of the complaints people have with that ability. We don't need it for 45+ seconds, we just need it for a moment to stop enemies from firing at us so we can revive our downed teammates.

 

The most is...

DE Said he'll sacrifice himself for the team and he does not.

The sacrefice in my mean is Synergy with 3/4 Skills what are team based...

And 2 Skill might be first toggled skill on Shields draining.

[Firetrucksrule]

42 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

okay, so what you are saying is, because harrow has buffs he can give out, he shouldnt be able to defend himself with his power designed to allow him to CONTROL CROWDS?

 

spamming a power when having a simple cone would be more efficient shows a clear problem with his kits efficiency, they gave us a power to control crowds, that can not do that unless you spam cast it, how is this working as intended? it needs a cone, end of conversation

I took a level 20 Harrow 40 minutes at Mot and only time I went down was suicide by Zarr. I could've gone at least twice as long the way he was playing, but I realized the Zarr didn't synergize with his abilities well because he needs headshots. No Naramon, only survivability came from his one, four and for petty healing his two. I've gone longer in Mot with him since then using more optomized builds as well. He's perfectly capable of defending himself with his current kit, a buff on his one would be nice but it isn't at the point where it's necessary. My big concern is I don't see them preserving his enviromental punchthrough with a cone, it would be too imbalanced to be able to stun a room from through the wall with a casting cone and the punchthrough is better than the cone's benefits to me. If the energy consumption was in anyway prohibitive then I'd completely agree with you, but the only cost to CC a larger crowd is a miniscule amount of time to cast it two or three times. If you want faster or more efficient CC there are more specialized CC frames that will do a much better job, as far as helping keep him alive Harrow's one does the trick.

[Ocerkin]

1 minute ago, Firetrucksrule said:

I took a level 20 Harrow 40 minutes at Mot and only time I went down was suicide by Zarr. I could've gone at least twice as long the way he was playing, but I realized the Zarr didn't synergize with his abilities well because he needs headshots. No Naramon, only survivability came from his one, four and for petty healing his two. I've gone longer in Mot with him since then using more optomized builds as well. He's perfectly capable of defending himself with his current kit, a buff on his one would be nice but it isn't at the point where it's necessary. My big concern is I don't see them preserving his enviromental punchthrough with a cone, it would be too imbalanced to be able to stun a room from through the wall with a casting cone and the punchthrough is better than the cone's benefits to me. If the energy consumption was in anyway prohibitive then I'd completely agree with you, but the only cost to CC a larger crowd is a miniscule amount of time to cast it two or three times. If you want faster or more efficient CC there are more specialized CC frames that will do a much better job, as far as helping keep him alive Harrow's one does the trick.

then i think you need to rename yourself Rell, because the REST of the playerbase thinks he is really really not very good, and i would agree, he has solid potential but his kit needs some tweaking

[NightmareT12]

1 hour ago, RafaelFuchs said:

#2: This should just be a toggle that inhibits the natural shield regen and drains a low amount of energy, but still able to gain energy from orbs and abilities. The new 60s cap on it is totally unnecessary and a step in the wrong direction too.

God no please. You say shields are too weak one second then in the other suggest the ability to work so it inhibits the shield regen.

I don't really want to see this kind of change in his second ability at all. At all. I haven't downed a single time when playing Harrow because of casting that ability, because I actually try to seek the right moment to turn it on -- I try to go away, cast it, return. Cast it when enemies are all dead and you have a brief moment of peace, etc. But this would be terrible D:

At all this, DE why did you add a time cap to that ability and why, for the sweet love of all that's good in this Universe, decided to nerf the Covenant ability at earlier levels instead of switching the values around OR buffing those. I was not expecting that approach when I reported such behavior, to be honest.

EDIT: A proper explanation as to why I'm opposed to Penance being a toggle:

• Right now you can cast Penance and cast his first ability to regain shields again instantly.
• A Sentinel can provide those shields back instantly.
• The shields on a toggle mode wouldn't be regained, meaning any enemy damaging you is going to have its way. It also goes against the main advantage of shields: That they are regained naturally.

So right now, Harrow is a shield based Warframe. Everything runs around his shield. While we're still lacking the gating, there is an advantage in the way Penance currently works for his shields, as you can instantly gain them back in a number of ways, and even if you didn't you should be able to recharge them back pretty fast with the right mods. Because Fast Deflection and Fortitude are a thing still.

 

Really, try to give it more spins before asking for a change here, because I have had 0 issue with it so far. In fact I am basing my build around it and I'm thoroughly enjoying this for a change.

Edited July 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[Firetrucksrule]

Just now, Ocerkin said:

then i think you need to rename yourself Rell, because the REST of the playerbase thinks he is really really not very good, and i would agree, he has solid potential but his kit needs some tweaking

In all the time I've been playing Warframe I always see the harshest criticisms for a frame not long after the launch. You can usually double that standard for frames that don't have direct damage abilities. Hell I still come accross people who think Banshee sucks, bad experiences just leave bad impressions on people. Either way I can agree that his one could use a buff, we'll have to agree to disagree on the extent of that hypothetical buff. I still would like to emphasize that the rest of OP's proposed changes would be a step sideways and a serious step backwards in my opinion.

[Ocerkin]

4 minutes ago, Firetrucksrule said:

In all the time I've been playing Warframe I always see the harshest criticisms for a frame not long after the launch. You can usually double that standard for frames that don't have direct damage abilities. Hell I still come accross people who think Banshee sucks, bad experiences just leave bad impressions on people. Either way I can agree that his one could use a buff, we'll have to agree to disagree on the extent of that hypothetical buff. I still would like to emphasize that the rest of OP's proposed changes would be a step sideways and a serious step backwards in my opinion.

you usually see atleast a FEW people screaming overpowered omg its the most powerful thing nerf now, this one? not a peep, its a complete and utter avalanche of people begging for buffs, not nerfs, BUFFS, thats rare as hell on these forums, ive seen frame after frame come through, and most of them are called overpowered at launch, there were a few that were called underpowered, and for good reason.

i agree that OP's potential changes are bad, mine on the other hand would be all around positive changes while sticking with the theme of sacrifice

this frame is doomed to end up in the same breath as hydroid if not given some tweaks, in the gutter like the rest of the trash

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ocerkin

[verklickt147]

@Tesseract7777 " Nidus and Octavia are very binary frames with very limited playstyles, and while Inaros is okay, two of his abilities are rarely if ever used and he is really clunky for the pace of Warframe. Maybe they should just stop making frames for a while, if they cannot make them right anymore. "

IMO nidus and octavia are very good frames .. i don´t get it - why very limited playstyles - as an octavia fits 4 everything?!!

Yeah and about harrow - i don´t get it - its just a strange thing - since there are still so many crazy things with other WF possible.. especially dmg output...

[Firetrucksrule]

1 minute ago, Ocerkin said:

you usually see atleast a FEW people screaming op omg its the most powerful thing nerf now, this one? not a peep, its a complete and utter avalanche of people begging for buffs, not nerfs, BUFFS, thats rare as hell on these forums, ive seen frame after frame come through, and most of them are called overpowered at launch, there were a few that were called underpowered, and for good reason.

 

this frame is doomed to end up in the same breath as hydroid if not given some tweaks, in the gutter like the rest of the trash

Lol I don't think you remember Titania's launch too well. Don't get me wrong I love her mobility, status nullifying, CC, damage, crit and slash biased status, but a lot of people thought she was functionally useless even after the movement speed buff. Then again I dumped 6 forma into her so I could use her 4 and CC together properly so maybe I'm biased 

Also I've seen some seriously positive reviews for the frame on Reddit. I mostly avoid Reddit like the plague but most of the Reddit salt I've seen about Harrow has been from Trinity fans complaining that he restores energy and grants invulnerability periods.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I think it's actually quite simple my friend. At max duration, you have an odd balance; the duration of the ability lasts for 17 seconds, yes, but the Narrow Minded reduces the range to only 6m. The effect is literally dropping off before you reach the enemies.

Best way I've found for modding Harrow so far is to use no Corrupted mods at all; both Primed Continuity and Constitution for duration (it's honestly enough for Condemn, and you get the decent boost to the other three abilities), Stretch, Intensify, Power Drift, Streamline, and then I've only opted for Vigor to boost the base stats, although when I unlock the Exilus I'll probably put in another forma for getting something like Vitality and Redirection to get the better health for survivability and the boosted shields to make his passive work for its money.

Trying to min-max Harrow too early will only result in annoyance when the inevitable patches come in later to 'rebalance' some of his stats.

[Ocerkin]

Just now, Firetrucksrule said:

Lol I don't think you remember Titania's launch too well. Don't get me wrong I love her mobility, status nullifying, CC, damage, crit and slash biased status, but a lot of people thought she was functionally useless even after the movement speed buff. Then again I dumped 6 forma into her so I could use her 4 and CC together properly so maybe I'm biased 

Also I've seen some seriously positive reviews for the frame on Reddit. I mostly avoid Reddit like the plague but most of the Reddit salt I've seen about Harrow has been from Trinity fans complaining that he restores energy and grants invulnerability periods.

the thing i have an issue with is im asking for relatively minor changes, and you seem to be completely against it getting touched at all even with so many people unhappy with it as it is...

 

the largest change in my personal requests would be the 2 change to a toggle, but my change offers a fair sacrifice for the ability to keep it on while thematically fitting the original intent of the power, many people have trouble keeping track of timers, i know i do when i have multiple running constantly (one reason i dont play chroma as much as id really like to) if the powers are meant to be kept on why have a timer? it makes no sense, toggles exist, why not use one? you even said the lifesteal is minor, so why would it hurt to allow us to toggle it on? also, whats the harm in giving us a cone for his 1? it would do nothign but help him, its not going to suddenly make his power overkill, he wont suddenly be locking down entire maps with it, so whats the harm in helping people play the frame by giving them better area coverage without recasting it repeatedly? i got enough spamming of my 1 playing nidus

[AtoKitsune]

1 hour ago, Cris0407 said:

You're right but don't you think his passive and his THING Shields / Overshields are not used enough?

 

Someone gave idea for 2 Skill to be toggled and it should drain Shields... > @Phyrak

Yeah, I guess there could be some more use of the overshields. His 1 being a setup for his 2 isn't really enough to emphasize his doubled shield potential.

[13QZXXTTX]

If you are asking for a more efficient less Shield drain/sec, than it seem a good idea.

 Though I think some one walking around with 3,000 Shield is not much but for show.

Now, been trying to figure the maxed shield number, and at 30 is 450 Shield. Nope, I hope with Shield Mods, at least break 5,000 (over-shield included).

Yeah hope Harrow have been balanced well, got to go.

[Tesseract7777]

24 minutes ago, verklickt147 said:

@Tesseract7777 " Nidus and Octavia are very binary frames with very limited playstyles, and while Inaros is okay, two of his abilities are rarely if ever used and he is really clunky for the pace of Warframe. Maybe they should just stop making frames for a while, if they cannot make them right anymore. "

IMO nidus and octavia are very good frames .. i don´t get it - why very limited playstyles - as an octavia fits 4 everything?!!

Yeah and about harrow - i don´t get it - its just a strange thing - since there are still so many crazy things with other WF possible.. especially dmg output...

Nidus can't even use his 3 and 4 until he's built up stacks, and needs to keep them up. Nidus is actively discouraged from doing anything but spamming his 1 and occasionally using 2, while keeping up 3 and 4 passively if needed. That's it, no versatility at all and very boring. Effective at what he does, but he's a one trick pony. 

Octavia has a slight bit more versatility but not really. She has four powers that are simply duration timers, with long duration making it easy to set them up and then dance in between. The keeping tempo buffs from Metronome are the only things that allow for any amount of skill or versatility, but it is still minimal. With the right song it takes no skill to keep the buffs up, and apart from being able to go invisible, they are basically just straight buffs that aren't anything to write home about, and don't really require any special playstyle or thought. 

She's boring, she's fairly limited. Is she useful? Sure. Don't mistake me for saying these frames suck, just that they are almost designed for a very limited playstyle that doesn't really allow for that much thought or strategy. 

[Firetrucksrule]

35 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

the thing i have an issue with is im asking for relatively minor changes, and you seem to be completely against it getting touched at all even with so many people unhappy with it as it is...

 

the largest change in my personal requests would be the 2 change to a toggle, but my change offers a fair sacrifice for the ability to keep it on while thematically fitting the original intent of the power, many people have trouble keeping track of timers, i know i do when i have multiple running constantly (one reason i dont play chroma as much as id really like to) if the powers are meant to be kept on why have a timer? it makes no sense, toggles exist, why not use one? you even said the lifesteal is minor, so why would it hurt to allow us to toggle it on? also, whats the harm in giving us a cone for his 1? it would do nothign but help him, its not going to suddenly make his power overkill, he wont suddenly be locking down entire maps with it, so whats the harm in helping people play the frame by giving them better area coverage without recasting it repeatedly? i got enough spamming of my 1 playing nidus

The lifesteal is actually phenomenal, it restores incredible amounts of health. It's unfortunately petty on solo because Harrow has low health. You get tons of health using it though, if you were playing really smart you could easily make a Nidus or an Inaros unbelievably durable. Nidus uses his two, Harrow kills them all Nidus gets more than enough energy back and so does the rest of the squad and everyone gets at least hundreds of health back a kill. 

I don't find your proposed changes too bad for the most part, I wouldn't say I support them but from my perspective unlike OP you seem to be maintaining the spirit of the frame with most of your proposals. I don't mean to be rude but I really feel like OP is kinda missing the spirit and utilization of the frame from the critique and suggestions. From your suggestions I like and dislike making his two a toggle, I think sufficiently strong enemies would eventually negate any over poweredness of it from their armor but I think it would also make early game with a Harrow in the squad braindead easy. Mybe instead of halfing Harrow's shields nullify his passive, it'll more or less accomplish the same thing while keeping him at a respectable shield capacity. 

Giving his 1 a cone would be over powered because you could go "oh hey look at those 40 level 200+ enemies in the room right next to me" and you could go cast his one at the wall, and hit everything 30-ish metres back in a cone at arund the same height. His ability already goes through walls, haven't tested it on thick ones and vertical travel seems to break it but his stun will hit enemies on the other side of corners and thin walls. Combine that with its current range and a cone and rooms that you aren't even in could be stunned. I'd love that but it's overpowered and then who knows when he'd be up for a nerf. If you justified the cone with removing the punchthrough then that would be a step backwards, the cone might have more immediate survival benefits in heated combat but right now he can already stun crowds before you can see them. When you're up against enemies that kill your 3k-ish shields in one hit and your health in the next being able to stun them before you see them is invaluable. I do agree that it's difficult to use right now though, which is why I think a buff would be good, but a cone will just scale too much at 30 metres, and that's with just a stretch on. A widened beam at a bit wider than shoulder width would probably do wonders for hitting things in a relative straight line and I could easily see it modifying my three cast strategy into two, but it wouldn't make it so powerful that they'd need to nerf the distance or make the environment block casts.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Firetrucksrule

[Ocerkin]

10 minutes ago, Firetrucksrule said:

The lifesteal is actually phenomenal, it restores incredible amounts of health. On solo however it's unfortunately petty on because Harrow has low health. You get tons of health using it though, if you were playing really smart you could easily make a Nidus or an Inaros unbelievably durable. Nidus uses his two, Harrow kills them all Nidus gets more than enough energy back and so does the rest of the squad and everyone gets at least hundreds of health back a kill. 

I don't find your proposed changes too bad for the most part, I wouldn't say I support them but from my perspective unlike OP you seem to be maintaining the spirit of the frame with most of your proposals. I don't mean to be rude but I really feel like OP is kinda missing the spirit and utilization of the frame from the critique and suggestions. From your suggestions I like and dislike making his two a toggle, I think sufficiently strong enemies would eventually negate any over poweredness of it from their armor but I think it would also make early game with a Harrow in the squad braindead easy. Mybe instead of halfing Harrow's shields nullify his passive, it'll more or less accomplish the same thing while keeping him at a respectable shield capacity. 

Giving his 1 a cone would be over powered because you could go "oh hey look at those 40 level 200+ enemies in the room right next to me" and you could go cast his one at the wall, and hit everything 30-ish metres back in a cone at arund the same height. His ability already goes through walls, haven't tested it on thick ones and vertical travel seems to break it but his stun will hit enemies on the other side of corners and thin walls. Combine that with its current range and a cone and rooms that you aren't even in could be stunned. I'd love that but it's overpowered and then who knows when he'd be up for a nerf. If you justified the cone with removing the punchthrough then that would be a step backwards, the cone might have more immediate survival benefits in heated combat but right now he can already stun crowds before you can see them. When you're up against enemies that kill your 3k-ish shields in one hit and your health in the next being able to stun them before you see them is invaluable. I do agree that it's difficult to use right now though, which is why I think a buff would be good, but a cone will just scale too much at 30 metres, and that's with just a stretch on. A widened beam at a bit wider than shoulder width would probably do wonders for hitting things in a relative straight line and I could easily see it modifying my three cast strategy into two, but it wouldn't make it so powerful that they'd need to nerf the distance or make the environment block casts.

i agree that the OP's changes are overboard,

about my ideas and your thoughts on them:

i think having it negate his passive works but i was having it actually use the sacrificed shields that were cut lower the energy drain on the power the same way it adds time right now, to make the spirit of the power still exist in the toggle, so more shields could make his energy costs less to allow more flexability for him as the current go to shield focused frame to sacrifice shields to lower his energy drain, maybe its not the best idea, i dont know, it was a thought i had

and im not asking for his 1 to go through the wall, any more than frosts ice wave could, anything that would hit the wall would be stopped, as any other power would have happen,

Edited July 1, 2017 by Ocerkin

[NightmareT12]

Quoting myself from the megathread as to why I think a toggle on Penance would be a bad idea:

 A proper explanation as to why I'm opposed to Penance being a toggle:

• Right now you can cast Penance and cast his first ability to regain shields again instantly.
• A Sentinel can provide those shields back instantly.
• The shields on a toggle mode wouldn't be regained, meaning any enemy damaging you is going to have its way. It also goes against the main advantage of shields: That they are regained naturally.

So right now, Harrow is a shield based Warframe. Everything runs around his shield. While we're still lacking the gating, there is an advantage in the way Penance currently works for his shields, as you can instantly gain them back in a number of ways, and even if you didn't you should be able to recharge them back pretty fast with the right mods. Because Fast Deflection and Fortitude are a thing still.

Really, try to give it more spins before asking for a change here, because I have had 0 issue with it so far. In fact I am basing my build around it and I'm thoroughly enjoying this for a change.

The timer cap has to go though. I can't understand why it was even added in the first place.

[Firetrucksrule]

7 minutes ago, Ocerkin said:

i agree that the OP's changes are overboard,

about my ideas and your thoughts on them:

i think having it negate his passive works but i was having it actually use the sacrificed shields that were cut lower the energy drain on the power the same way it adds time right now, to make the spirit of the power still exist in the toggle, so more shields could make his energy costs less to allow more flexability for him as the current go to shield focused frame to sacrifice shields to lower his energy drain, maybe its not the best idea, i dont know, it was a thought i had

and im not asking for his 1 to go through the wall, any more than frosts ice wave could, anything that would hit the wall would be stopped, as any other power would have happen,

Sorry I should've been more specific I like the idea of the shields drained determining energy cost, I just thought negating the passive would be a better penalty than halfing his max shields while the toggle is active.

I had a feeling you didn't want it going through the walls, but it does right now and that's why I like it so much. That's why Harrow was so survivable in Mot for me, I could pick a room with a couple chokepoints and stun enemies as they were coming through the chokepoints from safely around the corner run around the corner kill them to get the energy back.

[Ocerkin]

1 minute ago, Firetrucksrule said:

Sorry I should've been more specific I like the idea of the shields drained determining energy cost, I just thought negating the passive would be a better penalty than halfing his max shields while the toggle is active.

I had a feeling you didn't want it going through the walls, but it does right now and that's why I like it so much. That's why Harrow was so survivable in Mot for me, I could pick a room with a couple chokepoints and stun enemies as they were coming through the chokepoints from safely around the corner run around the corner kill them to get the energy back.

sadly i have a feeling thats actually a bug they are going to patch, they dont like the ability to effect enemies through walls

[Firetrucksrule]

9 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Quoting myself from the megathread as to why I think a toggle on Penance would be a bad idea:

 A proper explanation as to why I'm opposed to Penance being a toggle:

• Right now you can cast Penance and cast his first ability to regain shields again instantly.
• A Sentinel can provide those shields back instantly.
• The shields on a toggle mode wouldn't be regained, meaning any enemy damaging you is going to have its way. It also goes against the main advantage of shields: That they are regained naturally.

So right now, Harrow is a shield based Warframe. Everything runs around his shield. While we're still lacking the gating, there is an advantage in the way Penance currently works for his shields, as you can instantly gain them back in a number of ways, and even if you didn't you should be able to recharge them back pretty fast with the right mods. Because Fast Deflection and Fortitude are a thing still.

Really, try to give it more spins before asking for a change here, because I have had 0 issue with it so far. In fact I am basing my build around it and I'm thoroughly enjoying this for a change.

The timer cap has to go though. I can't understand why it was even added in the first place.

Ocerkin was talking about it draining energy for the toggle, not shields. Use the ability and your shields are drained to nothing like normal, the energy/second cost is determined by how much shield you sacrificed. Sentinels should still be able to restore your shields instantly under those conditions