Nidus's Larva ability makes it a bit too easy to troll him.

[Metal_Izanagi]

Currently, Nidus's second ability, Larva, grabs nearby enemies and sets them up to be more easily hit with Nidus's other abilities for the purpose of gaining Mutation stacks..

There's a bit of a problem, though. Enemies can still be rather easily dispatched by the weapons and abilities of teammates, and not everyone knows, or in some cases cares, if Nidus builds up his Mutation stacks. This can at times make playing as Nidus rather frustrating, as you grab a horde of enemies, and before you even have a chance to fire off Virulence or have a maggot hop into the blob of enemies, an ally runs in and starts swinging their melee weapon or fires an AOE weapon into the grouped enemies, killing them all and wasting the energy used to cast Larva, along with any stacks that could have been gained from the setup.

One or two times I can understand accidently taking out a bunch of potential stacks, especially if someone doesn't know how Nidus's abilities work. I've run into plenty of people who seem to just not care, though, ignoring repeated requests to stop attacking the Larva and at times becoming antagonistic over it in chat, even going as far as to follow me around and attempt to kill enemies before I have a chance to get any Mutation stacks from them.

More and more I'm starting to do two things. I either run away from my teammates and play incredibly selfishly, even going as far as to avoid aiding the rest of the squad because they keep interfering with stack-gathering. I can handle an amount of enemies intended for four players alone. I can't handle my teammates getting in my way even when I tell them to give me some space so I can actually scale and contribute damage and cast Ravenous without worrying about not having enough stacks to avoid death. If they're going to refuse to let me use my frame the way it was meant to be used, I'm going to refuse to use my frame to help them. The other thing I do is avoid playing Nidus at all. It's frustrating and not at all fun to constantly have to explain to people that no, blowing up all of the enemies trapped in Larva before I can cast my first ability is not helping at all. It's in fact hurting my ability to be effective. It's even more frustrating and disheartening when people become rude and do their best to not let me have any fun as Nidus by denying me Mutation stacks at every opportunity.

 

I'd like to propose a single change to Larva, because of this. Larva should have a secondary effect where any enemy killed while "attached" to the Larva counts as one point toward the next stack for Nidus. This way, if teammates want to kill the enemies that I use my energy to grab, it won't even be a problem because the dead enemies will still contribute to the stacking mechanic. If anything it means I'll be happy to have my allies blow up my Larva, especially if I get knocked away or run out of energy and can't finish off the blob.

[Jakorak]

I know that pain.

I hate you for being selfish.

That's a really cool idea

DE will probably never implement it cause """balance"""

[Azamagon]

Having Larva help, in some way, with getting Mutation Stacks (at the very least as an augment?) would be lovely. Then he could be playing with guns too, rather than requiring to spam his #1 over and over (which gets old real quick, to be honest) to do decently.

[polarity]

Looking at the way DE design Warframe abilities, I sometimes get the impression they're more interested in trolling than teamwork.

So what if their neat concept doesn't work in practice?  They're too invested in it to change to something that would work better.

It's like success has gone to someone's head and they think something is a good idea, entirely on the merit that they are the ones having it, rather than on its own strengths (or lack of them), so they are unlikely to listen to criticism.  If they do, they are not likely to respond appropriately, but rather, obstinately resist the challenge to their ego.

Edited August 7, 2017 by polarity

[DrBorris]

I hate it when a Nidus player thinks they get "dibs" on every enemy in the room when they cast Larva. It is just as bad as Ash's old Bladestorm calling dibs on an entire room. 

 

That said, it is an issue as Nidus needs stacks. Your suggestion would be a perfect way to alleviate the problem as well as allowing Nidus to use his weapons. 

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 minute ago, DrBorris said:

I hate it when a Nidus player thinks they get "dibs" on every enemy in the room when they cast Larva. It is just as bad as Ash's old Bladestorm calling dibs on an entire room.  

Unlike Ash, Nidus NEEDS to kill as much as possible with his 1 and 4 in order to keep his effectiveness up. He HAS to, or he'll be going down faster than an unmodded, unranked visible Loki would. Ash can still be effective without his 4, Nidus is utterly useless without stacks. When you see a Nidus grabing up enemies, let him and stop trying to out-greedy him. Otherwise, especially in difficult missions like 3rd Sorties, Kuva Floods or other such. Otherwise he will never be able to help you or the rest of the team, let alone himself

[DrBorris]

Just now, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Unlike Ash, Nidus NEEDS to kill as much as possible with his 1 and 4 in order to keep his effectiveness up. He HAS to, or he'll be going down faster than an unmodded, unranked visible Loki would. Ash can still be effective without his 4, Nidus is utterly useless without stacks. When you see a Nidus grabing up enemies, let him and stop trying to out-greedy him. Otherwise, especially in difficult missions like 3rd Sorties, Kuva Floods or other such. Otherwise he will never be able to help you or the rest of the team, let alone himself

And that is a problem with his design, which the OP gives a great suggestion on how to fix. 

 

You can't tell me that it is fair for Nidus to be able to walk in a room, grab every enemy, and yell "MINE". That is just plain bad for team play. I understand Nidus needs his stacks, but I am playing this horde shooter to shoot things. 

[Metal_Izanagi]

15 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I hate it when a Nidus player thinks they get "dibs" on every enemy in the room when they cast Larva. It is just as bad as Ash's old Bladestorm calling dibs on an entire room. 

 

That said, it is an issue as Nidus needs stacks. Your suggestion would be a perfect way to alleviate the problem as well as allowing Nidus to use his weapons. 

 

The thing is, unlike Ash and pre-nerf Bladestorm, Nidus's "greed" is for a very good reason. Without Mutation stacks, Nidus has serious problems dealing damage with his abilities and staying alive. He needs three stacks for every cast of Ravenous,(His fourth ability, which provides a healing ground and spawns Maggots that CC enemies and deal damage/add to his Mutation stacks when they detonate.) and one stack for every cast of Parasitic Link.(His third ability, which increases ally damage when cast on an ally, and acts as a damage-link that protects Nidus when cast on an enemy.) Unlike Ash, Nidus actually has an excuse for hording enemies. If he doesn't do it, with the way his powers currently work he's in serious trouble.

 

Oh, and Nidus also loses fifteen stacks to avoid death when his health drops to 0. He has no shields, so it's kinda important for him to get those stacks so he can keep tanking and blowing up crowds of enemies.

 

As for your second post, there's nothing "fair" about it. Nidus is supposed to be allowed to gobble up enemies by his teammates so that he can tank for the entire team. Nidus literally can't grab every enemy on the map at once, so if you see him grab enemies, it's better to just keep going and go take down the next group while he blobs up and smashes the guys you run past. Enemies trapped in Larva can't attack. They're no threat at all unless they're an Eximus, and in cases like that any decent Nidus is going to just wipe the group as fast as possible to avoid getting hit with the Eximus procs himself.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Metal_Izanagi

[xXDeadsinxX]

Absolutely agree with OP.

[polarity]

7 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I am playing this horde shooter to shoot things. 

And we've been trying to tell DE that since they reworked Ember into the walking-simulator frame.

Edited August 7, 2017 by polarity

[dmantacos]

I''m sorry but this is kind of hypocritical. On one hand you say it's not cool to kill "your" enemies, yet on the other, yo cast an ability that rips enemies away from all other parts of the map so that you can kill them. And I would hardly call not killing your enemies "teamwork" nor would i call killing them "trolling". As far as your fix goes, sure, stacks for all. All i'm saying is i don't think other people killing enemies on the map is "selfish" just as i don't think using an ability that sucks the enemies away from every other player so that you can kill them is selfish. It's just people playing the game, chillax

Edited August 7, 2017 by dmantacos

[Metal_Izanagi]

Just now, dmantacos said:

I''m sorry but this is kind of hypocritical. You say on one hand you say it's not cool to kill "your" enemies, yet on the other, yo cast an ability that rips enemies away from all other parts of the map so that you can kill them. And I would hardly call not killing your enemies "teamwork" nor would i call killing them "trolling". As far as your fix goes, sure, stacks for all. All i'm saying is i don't think other people killing enemies on the map is "selfish" just as i don't think using an ability that sucks the enemies away from every other player so that you can kill them is selfish. It's just people playing the game, chillax

I'm also sorry, but there's nothing hypocritical about wanting teammates to allow Nidus to gain stacks. Without Mutation stacks, Nidus is useless. He can only cast two abilities without using up Mutation stacks, and can't survive for very long on the frontline because his health pool is not as large as someone like Inaros, nor does he have the lifesteal abilities that Inaros does. Of the two abilities that he can cast without using his Mutation stacks, one is a ground spike that builds up Mutation stacks by hitting enemies and scales in damage based on how many Mutation stacks Nidus has, and the other is Larva, the ability that this thread is about in the first place.

[dmantacos]

1 minute ago, Metal_Izanagi said:

I'm also sorry, but there's nothing hypocritical about wanting teammates to allow Nidus to gain stacks. Without Mutation stacks, Nidus is useless. He can only cast two abilities without using up Mutation stacks, and can't survive for very long on the frontline because his health pool is not as large as someone like Inaros, nor does he have the lifesteal abilities that Inaros does. Of the two abilities that he can cast without using his Mutation stacks, one is a ground spike that builds up Mutation stacks by hitting enemies and scales in damage based on how many Mutation stacks Nidus has, and the other is Larva, the ability that this thread is about in the first place.

what?I mean.. It is literally the definition of hypocritical to claim enemies for yourself and say nobody else can kill them, but then use an ability that steals other peoples "enemies" lol. As for nidus, i have played him, i know how he works, it takes 5 hits, not kills, hits to mutate one stack. It is not hard to get stacks, even without larva. I'm not saying i disagree with OP's suggestion to his 2nd ablities alteration, all i'm saying is that everyone in the game is trying to kill things. To say that it's selfish or unfair that other people are killing "your" enemies is by definition hypocritical and i don't agree that anyone should halt their play style to accommodate yours.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

44 minutes ago, Metal_Izanagi said:

 

The thing is, unlike Ash and pre-nerf Bladestorm, Nidus's "greed" is for a very good reason. Without Mutation stacks, Nidus has serious problems dealing damage with his abilities and staying alive. He needs three stacks for every cast of Ravenous,(His fourth ability, which provides a healing ground and spawns Maggots that CC enemies and deal damage/add to his Mutation stacks when they detonate.) and one stack for every cast of Parasitic Link.(His third ability, which increases ally damage when cast on an ally, and acts as a damage-link that protects Nidus when cast on an enemy.) Unlike Ash, Nidus actually has an excuse for hording enemies. If he doesn't do it, with the way his powers currently work he's in serious trouble.

 

Oh, and Nidus also loses fifteen stacks to avoid death when his health drops to 0. He has no shields, so it's kinda important for him to get those stacks so he can keep tanking and blowing up crowds of enemies.

 

As for your second post, there's nothing "fair" about it. Nidus is supposed to be allowed to gobble up enemies by his teammates so that he can tank for the entire team. Nidus literally can't grab every enemy on the map at once, so if you see him grab enemies, it's better to just keep going and go take down the next group while he blobs up and smashes the guys you run past. Enemies trapped in Larva can't attack. They're no threat at all unless they're an Eximus, and in cases like that any decent Nidus is going to just wipe the group as fast as possible to avoid getting hit with the Eximus procs himself.

 

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

Whenever I use Nidus, I find that I rarely use Larva for this reason. It ends up being easier to get stacks without Larva since every Larva is like a 100% chance taunt to all players. Also idk if this is just me but sometimes it seems the delay for casting Virulence right after Larva fluctuates.

ALL non-Virulence kills on Larva held enemies should give stack segments up to a limit. And I mean ALL kills. Guns, melee, companions, teammates, irradiated enemies that team kill, all of it. That limit should be 3-5 segments so that Virulence is still the main choice for large gains.

[PsiWarp]

I don't have much trouble getting stacks with Larva because I can dictate where it goes, and with parkour I'll be right there in a flash stomping fungus out of the ground.

That said, I wouldn't mind your suggestion to allow Mutation to be gained from teammate contribution. People see a clusterf*** of enemies in one spot, they will seize the opportunity to burst that bubble for loot and Affinity and personal satisfaction and what-have-you.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

6 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Unlike Ash, Nidus NEEDS to kill as much as possible with his 1 and 4 in order to keep his effectiveness up. 

What levelrange are we even talking about exactly where it's Impossible for Nidus to gain stacks from pulled enemys?

He definitly NEEDS Stacks approaching higher levels where all his other tools, like linking and healing become a mandatory to but never was i under the impression that i'm missing something when there's really no reason for him to have stacks in the first place.

This isn't this stupid "ember/Ignis is stealing my kills" thing all over again, is it?

Edited August 7, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

What levelrange are we even talking about exactly where it's Impossible for Nidus to gain stacks from pulled enemys?

 

I hope you realize that Nidus only needs to hit an enemy with his 1 in order to add to his stack counter, no killing needed for starting out

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

59 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

I hope you realize that Nidus only needs to hit an enemy with his 1 in order to add to his stack counter, no killing needed for starting out

Ye, rather refering to VERY low level ranges where killing pulled enemys BEFORE nidus gets to hit them is a possibility...Where it's obviously kinda pointless to have stacks in the first place.

 

That's what kinda bothers me with this thread...

 

[Marthrym]

Yeah, I don't use Larva much for this very reason. It's a waste of time and energy more often than not. It's just easier to use Virulence alone. I don't blame other players for shooting at bunched up enemies instead of looking for single targets. They're doing what's logical, efficient. I blame the devs for their lack of foresight and logic. In a game where you play with others, ensuring that kind of mechanic takes into account the presence of other players seems... impossible not to think of.

Making it so that enemies killed by any source of damage while under the influence of Larva contribute to stacks would help, not just building stacks, but making the experience more enjoyable for everyone. But not by making a stupid augment for what should be part of the base ability. That would be even more of a waste.

[Marthrym]

Yeah, I don't use Larva much for this very reason. It's a waste of time and energy more often than not. It's just easier to use Virulence alone. I don't blame other players for shooting at bunched up enemies instead of looking for single targets. They're doing what's logical, efficient. I blame the devs for their lack of foresight and logic. In a game where you play with others, ensuring that kind of mechanic takes into account the presence of other players seems... impossible not to think of.

Making it so that enemies killed by any source of damage while under the influence of Larva contribute to stacks would help, not just building stacks, but making the experience more enjoyable for everyone. But not by making a stupid augment for what should be part of the base ability. That would be even more of a waste.

[Tizodd]

13 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I hate it when a Nidus player thinks they get "dibs" on every enemy in the room when they cast Larva. It is just as bad as Ash's old Bladestorm calling dibs on an entire room. 

That said, it is an issue as Nidus needs stacks. Your suggestion would be a perfect way to alleviate the problem as well as allowing Nidus to use his weapons. 

So much this^

Sure Nidus is more powerful with stacks but in the end, the game is essentially about killing enemies.  If Nidus is nice enough to clump enemies up Vauban style for us, we're more than obliged to kill them.  It may be a bit annoying when people kill things in my Larva, but I really can't get mad at them...it's not like those enemies were ever "mine" to begin with.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I see it slightly different as Nidus doesn't need stacks for viability until later high levels.

A single stack for Parasitic Link will suffice for Sorties.

People are saying Nidus needs his stacks to get his damage up....except when his Virulence is weak it allows him to get stacks faster as he can multi-strike on the same group of enemies.

This means you can keep Mutation Stacks low until Parasitic Link and base-regen are not cutting it.

Nidus' strength lies in getting better as enemies get harder to kill as he can more easily gain stacks. Everything up until that point is Nidus trying to be Overpowered for the current mission level.

 

I see Ravenous up more often than Parasitic Link on the PS4 players that go down as Nidus, like they are purposely trying to make a Glass Cannon Nidus build.

[THeMooN85]

As I read this thread I can agree with both sites.

People are saying Nidus need stacks and I agree, people are saying that others stills hist kills/hits by attacking his Larva and I agree, people are saying that Nidus stills their opponents and take them all to be more powerful and I agree... And even if most time I have no problem with gathering my stacks (if they intend to disturb me with my stacks collecting, I just go further), I agree that we have a solution for everyone.

I agree with everything in this thread but OP says HE HAS A SIMPLE AND GOOD FOR BOTH SITES SOLUTION! Why the [Vay] Hek you arguing at that? It is a good solution! An excellent one. With that everyone gains something...

Nidus gains stacks and his power grows so he can help his team by his other skills, others mates gains kills and dmg % (like... lol why you are arguing at that? This is co-op game, you are team for RNGsus sake!!!) so all can live in peaceful universe (like killing other species is the right way to save our).

 

Edited August 7, 2017 by THeMooN85

[Waffenheimer]

1 hour ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I see it slightly different as Nidus doesn't need stacks for viability until later high levels.

A single stack for Parasitic Link will suffice for Sorties.

People are saying Nidus needs his stacks to get his damage up....except when his Virulence is weak it allows him to get stacks faster as he can multi-strike on the same group of enemies.

This means you can keep Mutation Stacks low until Parasitic Link and base-regen are not cutting it.

Nidus' strength lies in getting better as enemies get harder to kill as he can more easily gain stacks. Everything up until that point is Nidus trying to be Overpowered for the current mission level.

 

I see Ravenous up more often than Parasitic Link on the PS4 players that go down as Nidus, like they are purposely trying to make a Glass Cannon Nidus build.

 

see this guy gets it.

you can get by with single digit stacks for quite a long time..  and if you die early? so what.   when things start really hitting the fan, it usually means enemies are starting to swarm so guess what, you can build up stacks quickly there!  

nidus is made for the long haul... people talk about bringing nidus on sorties and floods... he's not really ideal there..  unless of course you want to solo these quests, then nidus rises to the challenge ;)

 

the scaling of his stack damage is $&*&*#(%& OP anyways... I do vault runs with him, with an extinguished key on... and by the time I hit 4 or 5 stacks im already oneshotting things again.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Waffenheimer