Entitlement is not the answer to enjoying Warframe

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

spending 2 hours to get resources in a game about resources is hard for you? time to get a new game, your argument is invalid 

As a number of people have said...It's not hard - it's boring. I want to play a game about being a space ninja / merc. The last thing I want to do is go into hardcore farming mode in a game primarily focused on fast paced combat and acquiring gear to make the fight more efficient.

Oh and just an FYI - your argument is invalid because you resorted to using a strawman to try and discredit someone's legitimate point.

 

14 minutes ago, babywrath said:

This game is first and foremost an Open Beta game. 

No offense intended, but that "Open Beta" tag is just an excuse to allow DE to continue to make any and all changes they want to the game without catching too much flak, nothing more. More correctly, Warframe is first and foremost an F2P 3rd person sci-fi shooter that is constantly being tweaked and expanded on in the form of periodic updates.

An open beta phase that's lasted...what...3+ years now? Come on... Real open beta phases for games last no more than a few months.

 

[babywrath]

1 minute ago, MirageKnight said:

No offense intended, but that "Open Beta" tag is just an excuse to allow DE to continue to make any and all changes they want to the game without catching too much flak, nothing more. More correctly, Warframe is first and foremost an F2P 3rd person sci-fi shooter that is constantly being tweaked and expanded on in the form of periodic updates.

An open beta phase that's lasted...what...3+ years now? Come on... Real open beta phases for games last no more than a few months.

 

You are absolutely correct. But you are also forgetting that DE needs to consider the opinions of its player base when moving forward with an update lest they loose that precious player base and not know where they went wrong. They have precise statistics that tell them the legitimacy of the player's opinions. They can determine if whining players have a point or can be ignored.  

As an example: an individual or group of players complains that the drop rates are too low.

• admin checks drop rate statistics on all items and circumstances.
• admin checks complete list of drops made for the past x hours/days since post. 
• admin cross references listed rates against actual achieved rates.
•  
• result A: large skew - actual drop rates are lower then they should be. Admin gets testers to identify source of the problem. 
• result A: problem fixed. monitor player response.
•  
• result B: no skew - actual drop rate are exactly where they should be. Admin asks developers if it is an issue.
• result B-1: Developers look at number of similar complaints and notice it is a large player base.
• result B-1-a: ignore because they want it that way.
• result B-1-b: fix because feedback is worse than anticipated.
•  
• result B-2: Developers look at number of similar complaints and notice it is a small player base.
• result B-2-a: ignore because it is within acceptable standards of backlash. 
• result B-2-b: fix because they need more support for the game
• result B-2-b: fix because they need to populate items for the next update
• result B-2-b: fix because they flipped a coin. (Whatever reason they want basically)

My point. Discouraging a player's negative feedback defeats the purpose of a forum. Nothing is more useless than a pat on the back forum where all criticisms are rays of sunshine and unicorn farts. 

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, -Dissolution- said:

Its the "everyone gets a trophy/gold star" mentality. Its ruined our children.

^^THIS!  So much this.  I remember when that movement first started and thought it was stupid then.  

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I mostly fight the infested or the grineer. I try to get as far away from the corpus as far i could and even then i just burned down my last reserves of many items by helping clan researches. 

OK, Doesn't fight Corpus and then says getting a Corpus only drop is hard.   Hmmmmmmm.   

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

"I want it all now NOW NOW NOW NOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Six months later "This game is boring and there is nothing to do."

This is a direct result of the first statement I quoted above.  I'm in the process of breaking my nephew of this bad mentality by making him do his own research/work and explaining why.  

[Fallen_Echo]

40 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

OK, Doesn't fight Corpus and then says getting a Corpus only drop is hard.   Hmmmmmmm.  

I tried to shed some light on how i cant just go and continue playing normally and just wait for the oxium to slowly reach 7K. I must farm it.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I will also say this, in the future I kind of hope they add in more blueptint drops from diffrent mobs. I loved PSO and the wep drop systme, and it would be interesting to see some of that end up in this game. even if its very rare it would be cool.the moduler thing they talked about somewhat fufilled this, but wep parts would be interesting for the anvil later on.

 

[MirageKnight]

54 minutes ago, babywrath said:

You are absolutely correct. But you are also forgetting that DE needs to consider the opinions of its player base when moving forward with an update lest they loose that precious player base and not know where they went wrong. 

Not at all - I haven't forgotten. Good feedback is very important, but a healthy game comes from a dev team that listens well and implements changes that benefit all concerned. The trick is sifting through everything that's being said, getting the data you need, and then being willing to change whatever needs changing. If the general consensus of a game's playerbase is that x feature is bad for the game and the devs either can't see that or refuse to change that, said playbase is going to shrink.

Smart devs listen, filter, and respond to the best of their ability.

 

56 minutes ago, babywrath said:

My point. Discouraging a player's negative feedback defeats the purpose of a forum. Nothing is more useless than a pat on the back forum where all criticisms are rays of sunshine and unicorn farts. 

Couldn't agree more. However, I'd say that simply hating on something - as opposed to offering a constructive criticism / critique - is equally useless and non-beneficial. Yelling "This thing sucks! Get rid of it!" without say WHY you think it sucks is just as helpful as saying "OMG I LOVE this new thing - DE plz don't change it!"

I also dislike it when people automatically assume that when a player complains or is concerned about how grindy something might be (for example), that said player is a lazy, entitled schmuck or is a casual loser that who shouldn't be playing Warframe because they don't have much free time. Broad, knee-jerk assumptions like that smack of arrogance and elitism.

On the topic of free time and delayed gratification and speaking as a gamer and homeowner with responsibilities, I don't mind having to wait a couple of weeks to get an item. I'm completely fine with that. What I do find objectionable are craft-able items that require a massive amount of a fairly hard to obtain resource - necessitating weeks of tedious and mind-numbing grinding of particular tilesets and/or mission types. We're all here to have fun and escape the real world for a while, not partake in a second job that won't pay the bills.

 I don't care if certain players don't have any lives outside this game and have massive stockpiles of rare resources, DE. Don't punish the rest of us because of the actions of a small group of hoarders and throw in gear with really high resource requirements.

[babywrath]

25 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

-snip-

Oh you're not the OP. My bad. No wonder we both agree and I see your point. lol 

[MirageKnight]

No worries 

[Spartan336]

I've had Warframe since 2013. I'm only MR 10, but thats not for lack of playing. It's because I only level up stuff I like. And you know what you have to do to get stuff you like? Grind.

I haven't payed a penny for plat. I get everything I want from hard work and trade, and I have never once complained about it because grinding is a very large part of the game. I suspect new players don't understand this, in which case they just don't know what they've gotten into. The one's who do know and still complain, however, should know that Warframe probably isn't for them. 

Warframe rewards hard work. Thats how it is, and how it shall alway's be. 

Personally, I love the hard work. You really feel like you've earned whatever you were trying to get, as opposed to something you did one mission for, used for a bit, then forgot about because you had no real attachment to it. 

[ikkabotz]

6 hours ago, (PS4)CaseFace8 said:

I think part of the problem, is not necessarily entitlement but a lack of understanding. New players come in and see all the gear you can get but don't really understand how the game works. They think they can get everything quickly, since there are plenty of people that do, but don't realize the time it takes to get there. When you look at the big picture, it does seem insane how much time and resources you need to get things. As someone earlier said, these players either leave or start to understand the game and have more fun.

This is a good point, it's true that I shouldn't be too hasty to assume they feel entitled and might just be frustrated without understanding things. .

[ikkabotz]

6 hours ago, Zyneris said:

To OPs post:

As sad as it makes me, it's the culture. Everything is easier, shorter, more accessible, faster, etc. We are going to a full "RIGHT NOW" age. that's the biggest reasons that mobile games are on the rise like wildfire. Instant gratification. Same reason that every site has an upvote, like, agree, or whatever button. People like those, it makes them feel good. It literally triggers chemicals in their brains that say "yeah, I need more of this!" It's a mental high. 

How this translates to games specifically is, again sadly, more money. If they give people doses like shots, players will keep coming back for more. I won't drag on as you can see it with microtransactions / dlc. They are huge and on the rise without stop. I'm afraid for the future of gaming as a whole.

Great points OP.

I agree

[ikkabotz]

5 hours ago, babywrath said:

My point. Discouraging a player's negative feedback defeats the purpose of a forum. Nothing is more useless than a pat on the back forum where all criticisms are rays of sunshine and unicorn farts. 

I don't disagree, I think we just need to be aware of what corners we can be painted in if not too careful with user feedback and reinforcing player attitudes

Edited August 25, 2017 by komoriblues

[(PSN)horridhal]

12 hours ago, komoriblues said:

Because the more we put emphasis on easy experiences in game, easy acquisition, easy gameplay, easy features. .it dilutes the entire experience of the game.

I'm going to need an explanation of how people wanting a way to farm specific nodes for specific things, like specific relics, is asking for "easy" gameplay.  Or how people thinking that Primed mods, which do impact the game for a number of people, shouldn't be locked behind a wall of logging in 250+ days.

As a vet who put in over 1k hours since the game launched on my platform, I don't feel I should really need to log in another 100 days just to get a Zenistar (especially considering all those logins I had prior to the current system never counted).  Things like that, massive grinds that there is no way to speed up or overcome, ruin the experience for many players.  I'm not opposed to grinding missions, I am opposed to being rewarded once a day because I logged in before or after a specific time for a set number of days.

[Lost_Cartographer]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

No offense intended, but that "Open Beta" tag is just an excuse to allow DE to continue to make any and all changes they want to the game without catching too much flak, nothing more. More correctly, Warframe is first and foremost an F2P 3rd person sci-fi shooter that is constantly being tweaked and expanded on in the form of periodic updates.

An open beta phase that's lasted...what...3+ years now? Come on... Real open beta phases for games last no more than a few months.

 

This.  Not like a game being out of open beta and in release has stopped some developers from making huge changes to their game anyway.  It's a disclaimer tag for the gullible and ignorant and little more when there's a profitable business model in play.

 

As for the topic, entitlement in this particular community cuts both ways - the have-nots want things, the have-gots want to keep those things out of the have-not's hands as long as possible, indefinitely in some cases.  And very quickly a have-not can turn into a have-got with some luck with RNG.  This community is actually low key pretty horrible to itself - Warframe just doesn't have the PvP focus to ramp up balance and mod/weapon availability discussions to a consistent and fevered pitch.  There's plenty of "helpful" elitism and petty bickering going on regardless though.

[ikkabotz]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

I'm going to need an explanation of how people wanting a way to farm specific nodes for specific things, like specific relics, is asking for "easy" gameplay.  Or how people thinking that Primed mods, which do impact the game for a number of people, shouldn't be locked behind a wall of logging in 250+ days.

As a vet who put in over 1k hours since the game launched on my platform, I don't feel I should really need to log in another 100 days just to get a Zenistar (especially considering all those logins I had prior to the current system never counted).  Things like that, massive grinds that there is no way to speed up or overcome, ruin the experience for many players.  I'm not opposed to grinding missions, I am opposed to being rewarded once a day because I logged in before or after a specific time for a set number of days.

Opening access to login rewards beyond being a login reward defeats the purpose of having them (kind of floats with the point about diluting the experiences in the game). .login rewards don't have the same meaning if you don't have to login to get them. .Zenistar wouldn't be Zenistar the same way. .opening access to rewards to different nodes could potentially trivialize different areas in the game. .for example if Arcanes were rewarded from Baro or from a solo mission and those were easier than raiding then fewer players will raid .at the core of what I'm trying to say with this post is that challenge and persistence is not a bad thing and makes the game better (even if it's just logging in to earn a reward). .I do understand what you're saying though. .it's a tired and tried expression but I believe in "good things come to those who wait" being a good mantra

Edited August 25, 2017 by komoriblues

[(PSN)robotwars7]

to the issues that OP raised:

Primed Shred: a completely optional mod, which like all other primed mods is a luxury, not a necessity. it's still possible to get anywhere you want to in the game with no Primed Mods whatsoever, they're just nice things to have IF you can afford them. I have used every single weapon currently in-game to 30 and Forma'd at least once, and at no point have a found Shred or Primed shred necessary. a nice thing to have yes, but not essential. Baro could always sell these mods, but then it kind of defeats the point of the Login system.

Oxium: really not that hard to farm. yes, losing Cerberus was a bit of a blow, but since Starmap 3.0 I find that Venus and other low-level Corpus missions have rather large amounts of Oxium Ospreys floating around. we also have Alerts that give you 300 a time. compare that To Argon, where you're only have a chance to find maybe one or two per run, and that's searching every nook and cranny, busting open all containers etc. Oxium has never been a problem for me, even post-Cerberus.

Arcanes: not hard to farm, there's a raid bus. if they took Arcanes out of LoR and JV, there'd be no reason to play them at all, save for Credits which you can farm anywhere. PoE may solve these concerns since DE said new ones would appear in the plains.

Relics: again, not that bad as long as you don't burn yourself out over it. when new primes come round, the easiest way to get relics is to farm syndicate Rep and buy Relic Packs. yes, you still get random ones, but it's quicker and easier than spending forever on Hieracon and getting nothing but Endo and Ammo Mutation mods. I'd say it's the need for traces that adds Tedium, but we also have alerts for those now as well.

not having time to play the game: blame life, not DE.

feedback on all sides is welcome as long as it's coherent, constructive and respectful. the issue I have is that Kuva siphons are as boring as watching paint dry, yet there's no alternative to siphons for farming Kuva. that's not to say I disagree with the OP, I would say entitlement is on the rise. we don't need to be reminded of that however, a few mins in Region Chat does the job just fine.

[ikkabotz]

Just now, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

that's not to say I disagree with the OP, I would say entitlement is on the rise. we don't need to be reminded of that however, a few mins in Region Chat does the job just fine.

[ikkabotz]

7 minutes ago, Littleman88 said:

There's plenty of "helpful" elitism and petty bickering going on regardless though.

Also true 

[(PSN)JaundiceMan]

I Always thought WF was THE most fair MMO out there. It's all cooperative, aside from Conclave. So yeah, complaints about stats or Primed Shred are really just a waste of server space.

Keep doing what you do, DE, you got it nailed down!

[(PSN)horridhal]

2 hours ago, komoriblues said:

Opening access to login rewards beyond being a login reward defeats the purpose of having them (kind of floats with the point about diluting the experiences in the game).

They should never have been mods or weapons in the first place.  Log in rewards should be restricted to cosmetic items because a 600 day login item is only going to lead to people becoming burned out on waiting and moving on.  Weapons and Mods should be able to be found without needing to wait because they are locked behind some massive time wall.  Opening these items up to the public does nothing to "dilute" the game experience.  You can still use yours and no one is saying it should be taken away.

2 hours ago, komoriblues said:

login rewards don't have the same meaning if you don't have to login to get them. .Zenistar wouldn't be Zenistar the same way.

This is ridiculous logic.  It's the equivalent of saying "I got mine so to heck with everyone else" and does nothing to serve the game itself.  All it does is allow you to get excited over "Muh exclusive".  Opening the app once a day at a specific time doesn't actually show you've accomplished anything beyond opening and closing the app and all the log in rewards can be gotten without ever actually playing the game.

2 hours ago, komoriblues said:

opening access to rewards to different nodes could potentially trivialize different areas in the game. .for example if Arcanes were rewarded from Baro or from a solo mission and those were easier than raiding then fewer players will raid 

Why is that a bad thing?  Few people are running the raid now because it is old content and barely worth doing unless you need arcanes.  The people that are running them are forced into a massive grind, which isn't something I'm opposed to in the game, and I'm not specifically talking about Arcanes in my post.  My post is more centered around the time wall you think is some great boon to content within the game.

2 hours ago, komoriblues said:

I do understand what you're saying though. .it's a tired and tried expression but I believe in "good things come to those who wait" being a good mantra

Obviously you don't understand what is being said since you were unable to actually explain how making the log in rewards available another way would "dilute" the game or is asking for "easy" mode.  You are trying, seemingly, to pretend I'm saying everyone should just be given these as opposed to what I'm actually saying which is that people should be able to play the game and acquire them without needing to wait hundreds of days to do so.

[Arniox]

14 hours ago, MystMan said:

I honestly don't get the ones who say "I don't have enough time to play the game".  Umm.... then you don't get to play the game. Period. Video games are time wasters, for people who have plenty of time to waste. That's life for ya, we don't always get what we want. We make choices or life makes choices for us and we have to live with the consequences.

I never experienced the splendor that was Ultima Online or City of Heroes, which I really wanted to play. I was in college. I had life priorities, and complaining to online games not being catered around busy college folk who barely have much free time, wasn't one of them. That'd be just silly, and yet here are people doing that very thing.
Busy people -> they play your game the least -> least amount of money earned from them with long time intervals.
Free time people -> they play your game the most -> most money earned from them in short time intervals.

It's nothing personal, just business. That's how F2P works.

"I'm in the army on an oil rig platform doing volunteer work! I barely have time to play videogames, they should cater all their content to me so I can get them all in a month!"

Double You Tee Eff 

-----------------------------------------------

"That guy has Primed Shred and I only have regular Shred. He is INFINITELY SO MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN ME! IT'S UNFAIR!!!"

That's all between your ears. Plain envy, really. No game content has been added where that tiny difference has a major impact.  Stop looking at theoretical numbers and focus more on practicality. Player's reaction time, aim, knowledge of game mechanics and judgement calls are all the deciding factors in the end. If the average WF player has a Primed Shred, I will still outperform them with my regular Shred modded gun because I move/shoot/react faster than them. They will still have much less kills than me (like that even matters! It doesn't! Stop obsessing about those stats!)

 

Login rewards and event-exclusive rewards do not make a difference between winning and losing. If you are losing without them, you are still going to lose with them.
The regular, corrupt and nightmare mods that we can easily farm right now are enough to make your Warframes + weapons into powerful engines of destruction.

100% agree. Stop complaining about stuff you can't get and be happy with what you do have. Us vets have had to go through the same thing as low level players, so we know what's its like. What I would say is get gud. 

You wouldn't go into a game like dark souls and say: oh it's too hard, oh the grind is too long, oh the bosses are to hard. The whole community would say get gud. Same with warframe: if you don't have the patience or the time or the energy, either get gud, or leave this game. Because it's not for you. 

[BlueberryIsWar]

Because a lot of things got ruined over time. Other things got better.

Its a feedback loop, older players complain that the game is to easy, which made the game harder for newer players with things like nullifiers, those inlineskate guys, bursas, etc. (seriously, corpus tiles have no fun written all over them)

Meanwhile the gap between newer players and older players get bigger and bigger.

The game does lack catch up mechanics, even tough junctions, etc are a big improvement in that sector.

But yes, most people don't realize how boring warframe gets when you have everything. Main reason I only use plats for slots, potatoes and cosmetics now.

Edited August 25, 2017 by BlueberryIsWar

[Avenwing]

8 hours ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

They should never have been mods or weapons in the first place.  Log in rewards should be restricted to cosmetic items because a 600 day login item is only going to lead to people becoming burned out on waiting and moving on.  Weapons and Mods should be able to be found without needing to wait because they are locked behind some massive time wall.  Opening these items up to the public does nothing to "dilute" the game experience.  You can still use yours and no one is saying it should be taken away.

This is ridiculous logic.  It's the equivalent of saying "I got mine so to heck with everyone else" and does nothing to serve the game itself.  All it does is allow you to get excited over "Muh exclusive".  Opening the app once a day at a specific time doesn't actually show you've accomplished anything beyond opening and closing the app and all the log in rewards can be gotten without ever actually playing the game.

Why is that a bad thing?  Few people are running the raid now because it is old content and barely worth doing unless you need arcanes.  The people that are running them are forced into a massive grind, which isn't something I'm opposed to in the game, and I'm not specifically talking about Arcanes in my post.  My post is more centered around the time wall you think is some great boon to content within the game.

Obviously you don't understand what is being said since you were unable to actually explain how making the log in rewards available another way would "dilute" the game or is asking for "easy" mode.  You are trying, seemingly, to pretend I'm saying everyone should just be given these as opposed to what I'm actually saying which is that people should be able to play the game and acquire them without needing to wait hundreds of days to do so.

Nobody needs arcanes. I don't have any and have no desire to farm for them because they aren't necessary for completing any part of this game. I soloed the 80-100 low energy Defection sortie two days ago without them.

As to the login rewards, FINALLY there is something worthwhile in the login rewards. The first implementation of the login rewards gave affinity for weapons you didn't need it for, hundreds of credits instead of thousands, and blueprints for things like the gorgon. I'd rather have actual good milestones in the login rewards over that S#&$e system. And if you take out the good milestones you take away the incentive to work towards the log in rewards.

[Lost_Cartographer]

11 minutes ago, Avenwing said:

And if you take out the good milestones you take away the incentive to work towards the log in rewards.

...There is no "work towards the log in rewards."  You literally just log in as often as possible (at most once per day.)

This is what I meant by entitlement cutting both ways.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Littleman88

[Alure]

I usually set a goal for myself and what I'd like to accomplish in the game. If a Mod, or a Frame, or a Weapon is hard to obtain, I set it as a long-term goal rather than something I need to get immediately. I think setting long-term and short-term goals for yourself is the key to fully enjoying the game. If everything were easy to obtain, there wouldn't be much joy in having it.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Alure