Bring back Void Keys..

[Kashuken]

I agree.

In the end it is so you are forced to grind even more for that 1 part you need or good goy up and buy plat and just outright buy it which a fair few would do.

I used to farm for the frame everytime and then sell any excess or trade, now i do not care and may only go for it if i can or really want to but grinding for grinding sake for traces to make a relic something else is a pain in the arse frankly and i hate it, earning keys were bad enough but now it is a joke.

[VirtualViolet]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:54 AM, Marthrym said:

That's the whole point of the relics system : preventing the players from stockpiling and getting more than one part per run. It's a very simple concept : more grind, less rewards. Why do you think they implemented the trace system on top of it all? To add another layer of grind, to make people think it actually has a big impact on droprates, when all it does it barely affect it. That's why they use those shiny little bars instead of tangible, REAL numbers to tell us how we actually affect droprates with traces.

The problem with your argument is that they HAVE given us the actual drop rates, just not in game. The chance of getting the rare reward from a relic goes from 2% (intact) to 10% (radiant). That's five times the drop rate, and a hell of a lot better than the rare drops in the old system (which were sometimes below even 2%). And that's only playing solo! Add relics from teammates, and your chances of getting a rare part (assuming all 4 relics are radiant) shoots up to nearly 35%. That's tangible, real numbers for you.

I've said it dozens of times, and I'll say it again here: relics are a much faster and easier way to get the prime parts you want, especially if you're smart about it. You like stockpiling keys in the old system? Stockpile syndicate standing and tokens and buy relic packs in bulk when a new prime access (or prime vault opening) is released. You can easily save up enough to buy 30+ relic packs, which should get you at least a handful of each new relic. I went to the extreme and saved up enough to buy 97 relic packs from the time Rhino/Mag vault closed to the Hydroid Prime Access release (though I screwed up with turning in tokens and wound up only getting 90-ish packs), which got me all the relics I needed to get all three new prime items, even though there were a few parts that I had particularly bad luck with. I cracked those relics, had acquired every part in two nights, and still have hundreds of other miscellaneous relics. I could crack relics open all day every day and not run out for weeks if I had the time and wanted to.

[0asu]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:54 AM, Marthrym said:

That's the whole point of the relics system : preventing the players from stockpiling and getting more than one part per run. It's a very simple concept : more grind, less rewards. Why do you think they implemented the trace system on top of it all? To add another layer of grind, to make people think it actually has a big impact on droprates, when all it does it barely affect it. That's why they use those shiny little bars instead of tangible, REAL numbers to tell us how we actually affect droprates with traces. They want to make it slower. All the while trying to "lessen grind fatigue". Which, as far as I'm concerned, is pretty much the one "upside" of this system. Oh, also it's "easier" to share relics, and you only run the mission once when sharing. Add the Ducats to that, you understand why they made it this way. They want you to grind more, without feeling like you're grinding more. It's a tradeoff, some people prefer it that way, other don't. Do you prefer more, generally less painful grind, or less, but more noticeable grind? Do you want less rewards with (barely) more control over what you get, or basically no control but more shinies (depending on the mission type)? Maybe we could try a mix of both. I don't know, this system isn't worse than the older one, just a different kind of pain.

lul 

i think you forgot to add a Kappa to your post

[Marthrym]

56 minutes ago, VirtualViolet said:

The problem with your argument is that they HAVE given us the actual drop rates, just not in game. The chance of getting the rare reward from a relic goes from 2% (intact) to 10% (radiant). That's five times the drop rate, and a hell of a lot better than the rare drops in the old system (which were sometimes below even 2%). And that's only playing solo! Add relics from teammates, and your chances of getting a rare part (assuming all 4 relics are radiant) shoots up to nearly 35%. That's tangible, real numbers for you.

I've said it dozens of times, and I'll say it again here: relics are a much faster and easier way to get the prime parts you want, especially if you're smart about it. You like stockpiling keys in the old system? Stockpile syndicate standing and tokens and buy relic packs in bulk when a new prime access (or prime vault opening) is released. You can easily save up enough to buy 30+ relic packs, which should get you at least a handful of each new relic. I went to the extreme and saved up enough to buy 97 relic packs from the time Rhino/Mag vault closed to the Hydroid Prime Access release (though I screwed up with turning in tokens and wound up only getting 90-ish packs), which got me all the relics I needed to get all three new prime items, even though there were a few parts that I had particularly bad luck with. I cracked those relics, had acquired every part in two nights, and still have hundreds of other miscellaneous relics. I could crack relics open all day every day and not run out for weeks if I had the time and wanted to.

You sure you read my post before quoting it? *sigh*

I only said that the amount of relics, traces, and ultimately time spent, didn't make this new system any better than the old one. Because in the end, you spend FOUR relics for ONE reward for a decent shot at a rarer drop. That "huge" difference in droprate comes with just as huge a sacrifice : one relic, one reward, period, where ONE key could potentially yield many more. One hour in a survival meant 12 rewards. For one key. Sure, the droprates were fixed, no way to influence them, which was frustrating. That's where relics present an interesting alternative. But does that make relics better than keys? Or keys better than relics for that matter? There is no good or bad answer here, that was the whole point of my post, which you conventiently cut in half to leave out that conclusion. Which is kinda the whole point of the post... Thanks a bunch mate, very constructive.

Relics are not better than keys as far as I'm concerned. They're just different. Spend more to get less, but with some modicum of control over that less to make it be what you want. That's it, that's all there was to that post. So why are you trying so hard to tell me that I'm wrong to say that keys are better, when I didn't even say it in the first place?

Some people really read what they want to read, I swear...

[blackheartstar_pc]

I miss the old system as well. I wouldn't want it back quite as bad if they would just add a permanent Survival to each era of Relic. Very aggravating to log in and there being no endless Fissures. Back then we always had T3/T4 Survival and it was a better time for it.

[EvilChaosKnight]

I think the word OP was looking for is "tedious" tbh.

That's what the new system is. It's not worse or better than the old one but it sure as hell feels a lot more like, well, work? You know, stuff you normally only do because you need money to put food on the table. Rather than a time killer videogames technically are.

Old system for me was basically chilling solo (or with a friend) on endless nodes, grabbing keys every now and then as I leveled up some gear. And when the new PA came out, I grabbed my stockpile of keys, my trusty friends and clanmates (some with their own stockpiles, some not), and we farmed. Sometimes for hours indeed. But somehow it only felt bad on a few occassions, ironically mostly around the dusk of the key system (hello T4D/I Rot.C for days). For the most part we didn't exactly struggle too much honestly, just sitting on Teamspeak, chatting about any random nonsense we felt like, having fun with soundboards or whatever floated our boat really.

New system is more... annoying I guess? First we all need to farm relics. Relics aren't keys, there's TONS of them and their names tell little compared to what everyone was used to in the keys era. You don't get T2MD which is extremely self-explanatory. You get Meso N5. What's on Meso N5? Idk. Needs googling or opening codex. And if you are farming for the new PA, you have to either keep a list of codes at hand or train your memory like a poker player. That's kinda tiring for the brain, esp. after a day at actual work.
Then you have to worry about playing 3D Packman with the reactant which doesn't even get vacuum'd. And if you are on endless, you better pray to RNGesus that all 10 will drop within the "rotation", and you'll find them in time. You can't JUST play the game. So more worries here.
Then you have to accumulate traces which you get 6 to 30 per run. So it can be anywhere between 4 and 17(!) runs to collect the amount you need for radiant. Do you know how game determines how much you get? Well, me neither!
Now you are ready to go for it. You've invested so much into this relic and so did your friends and clan mates. And then there's no Meso fissure you needed. GGWP. So you have to worry about that as well.
Alright, Meso fissure is here. You all equip your relics and go in. Or chose to go one after another. Whatever you feel like. But in the end everything flops worse than the new Death Note movie. You get common junk parts and/or forma. With the old system when you just sat there for 20min at worst it was merely annoying, we all laughed and joked that we will certainly get it eventually (and maybe before the heat death of the universe), just had to be patient. With the new system it honestly feels dishearting on some almost personal level due to wastly increased investment.

The new system might feel better to some people, esp. ones who liked to play with pubs. It might even be more efficient, I am not gonna argue against that.
But personally, I'd take running and gunning on the same tileset for hours, getting random stuff, even if it's meh, over stressing myself out over several things at once, and then watching my investments turn to dust because RNGesus didn't feel like our radshare deserved to succeed.

[VirtualViolet]

On 9/5/2017 at 6:21 PM, Marthrym said:

You sure you read my post before quoting it? *sigh*

I only said that the amount of relics, traces, and ultimately time spent, didn't make this new system any better than the old one. Because in the end, you spend FOUR relics for ONE reward for a decent shot at a rarer drop. That "huge" difference in droprate comes with just as huge a sacrifice : one relic, one reward, period, where ONE key could potentially yield many more. One hour in a survival meant 12 rewards. For one key. Sure, the droprates were fixed, no way to influence them, which was frustrating. That's where relics present an interesting alternative. But does that make relics better than keys? Or keys better than relics for that matter? There is no good or bad answer here, that was the whole point of my post, which you conventiently cut in half to leave out that conclusion. Which is kinda the whole point of the post... Thanks a bunch mate, very constructive.

Relics are not better than keys as far as I'm concerned. They're just different. Spend more to get less, but with some modicum of control over that less to make it be what you want. That's it, that's all there was to that post. So why are you trying so hard to tell me that I'm wrong to say that keys are better, when I didn't even say it in the first place?

Some people really read what they want to read, I swear...

Are you sure you read MY post? And the part of your post that I quoted? I was responding to that specific argument, then I went on to address the topic in general. I didn't quote the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing against it. Your argument (that I quoted) was basically that DE wanted to fool us into thinking that we have more control over the drop rates than we do and your 'evidence' was that "they use those shiny little bars instead of tangible, REAL numbers," but that is objectively false. The numbers are right here for all to see. I even did the math for you and showed you exactly how much control we do have and it is much more than "barely" affecting it.

If you think grinding away in the same mission for hours on end - for a 5% or less drop chance of the prime part you want every 20 minutes (and a crap load of junk) - is fun and rewarding, then you have a very different idea of fun than I do. The trade-off of "one relic = one reward" is well worth it to me for how much faster it is to get the parts I want. (And it is faster.) And if you want junk parts for ducats, all those junk relics you pick up from relic packs or while farming for the relic(s) you want can be quickly and easily cracked with no traces, and you still have a good shot (in a full squad) of getting an uncommon (45 ducats) or rare (100 ducats) reward (~66.6% assuming all intact relics, minus a little if any of them have forma as an uncommon reward). PLUS you get traces you can save for whatever relics you want. (Or, while you're farming traces, equip your junk relics and you also get a bunch of junk prime parts to trade in for ducats. If you're farming traces without cracking relics, you're not getting the most out of your time.)

Now, I do think that the way fissure missions are generated could be a little more consistent. Having two guaranteed missions per tier - one endless and one not - at all times would be ideal, imo. And they still haven't quite gotten the timing right on generating new fissures (and refreshing the navigation panel) when old ones expire.

[Marthrym]

9 hours ago, VirtualViolet said:

Are you sure you read MY post? And the part of your post that I quoted? I was responding to that specific argument, then I went on to address the topic in general. I didn't quote the rest of your post because I wasn't arguing against it. Your argument (that I quoted) was basically that DE wanted to fool us into thinking that we have more control over the drop rates than we do and your 'evidence' was that "they use those shiny little bars instead of tangible, REAL numbers," but that is objectively false. The numbers are right here for all to see. I even did the math for you and showed you exactly how much control we do have and it is much more than "barely" affecting it.

If you think grinding away in the same mission for hours on end - for a 5% or less drop chance of the prime part you want every 20 minutes (and a crap load of junk) - is fun and rewarding, then you have a very different idea of fun than I do. The trade-off of "one relic = one reward" is well worth it to me for how much faster it is to get the parts I want. (And it is faster.) And if you want junk parts for ducats, all those junk relics you pick up from relic packs or while farming for the relic(s) you want can be quickly and easily cracked with no traces, and you still have a good shot (in a full squad) of getting an uncommon (45 ducats) or rare (100 ducats) reward (~66.6% assuming all intact relics, minus a little if any of them have forma as an uncommon reward). PLUS you get traces you can save for whatever relics you want. (Or, while you're farming traces, equip your junk relics and you also get a bunch of junk prime parts to trade in for ducats. If you're farming traces without cracking relics, you're not getting the most out of your time.)

Now, I do think that the way fissure missions are generated could be a little more consistent. Having two guaranteed missions per tier - one endless and one not - at all times would be ideal, imo. And they still haven't quite gotten the timing right on generating new fissures (and refreshing the navigation panel) when old ones expire.

These numbers you swear by, you do realize that in the past, they were proven... inaccurate, right? Sure, it was a mistake, and it was then corrected. It happens, nobody's perfect. But again, that's not the point I was making. My point was, why not put the numbers in the game instead of the forums? And again, you jumped the shark and saw what you wanted to see there. True, I don't believe the impact we have on droprates is significant enough to warrant farming traces so much, but that was just one part of the problem I have with the "shiny little bars".  As for the "huge" impact on droprates relics have compared to keys, it only becomes anywhere near "huge" with radshare, which means 4 times as many relics, as well as 400 traces, all spent for a single solitary reward. And again, I NEVER stated that I prefered "grinding away in the same mission for hours on end", or that I considered it fun. But it is statistically more rewarding than burning relics and traces for much less "junk". Fun is irrelevant here, we were talking time/resources spent for the amount of rewards gained. And I again specifically stated that relics gave a better shot at getting specific parts, AND do lessen grind fatigue, at least for me. It just requires to spend a lot more resources on it for it to matter. And throwing percentages at me to justify how "hugely" better this system is feels a little bit disingenuous to me. Because you forgot to mention how percentages actually work. How there's a significant difference between what different players experience with the same droprates. One thing percentages can't deny though, no matter the player, is how keys did give a lot more, for a lot less. I don't miss spending hours in the same mission, you got me there. But I don't find repeating the same shorter mission over and over, spending significantly more resources for ultimately far less rewards any better either. Why not try and balance both aspects instead? Is that too unreasonable a request?

You carefully avoid the one part that matters in my post for some unfathomable reason. You love butting heads or something? I stated, CLEARLY stated, that I didn't think relics were worse than keys. I just don't think they're generally better either. I never said my opinion was the one and only valid one, unlike what you seem to be trying to imply, at least judging by how you interpret the part of my post you quote. Which kinda makes me think I really need to make myself a lot clearer in the future so as to avoid this kind of situation... You prefer relics? Good on you! I don't. But I don't prefer keys either. I'm just saying that the amount of time and resources spent far outweigh the quantity of rewards gained when it comes to relics. And yes, they do give a better statistical chance at specific parts, provided you spend enough time and resources into them. Because I'm fairly confident that spending maybe two hours in one survival mission (which means 24 drops, 12 rotations A, 6 B and 6 C) for one single key spent ends up not being that far from spending 4 relics and 400 traces for a single reward in terms of ratio, efficiency, and maybe even sometimes getting specific parts. Ultimately, it all depends on where one is situated on that "statistical scale", the end result isn't all rainbows and candy for everyone. Just keep that in mind, that's all I ask for. Just because you tend to get better results, or this system suits your taste more than the old one, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. No one has to prefer one system over the other either. They're just different, each has its perks and flaws.

Oh and speaking of maths, 4 radiant relics don't give you 35% chance at a rare part. It's 30%. 30.025%, to be exact. I know I know, that's a severe case of nitpicking, it's still significantly more than 2 or even 10%... Sorry.^^'

Edited September 7, 2017 by Marthrym

[Volinus7]

Unless you plot specific reward output against time, your feelings about drop rates are anecdotal. Systemic seeding can do that much. 

If you don't really care about "specific" reward then key system yielded far more rewards per prep time per person than relics. 

There's no parallel test run or pool of data on old system, it's futile to debate but business wise there's no way that player retention will be weaker #iykwim.

 

[(XBOX)JACK BURT0N LSG]

I hate relics. It's just a wall to slow players down with void traces adding grind on top of grind. It's worse than the key system, I can burn through 20+ "upgraded" relics and still not get any item in the bottom 3 slots. It's partially why I don't farm Primes anymore or even play Warframe that consistently these days. Everything they've done over the last year or so has been designed around slowing player progression to a crawl. I hate Kuva just as much.

"Here's your triple layered grind steak with 3 sides of grind, would you like some additional grind on all that grind? Sure thing!" - DE

Still trying to get Rhino P chassis to drop after 2 years. It's just a joke at this point.

[TheMightyBaloon]

On 9/3/2017 at 5:05 PM, Littleman88 said:

Void keys sucked because we were stuck only ever seeing the Void, and nearly every prime item had a part tied up in rotation C of T3/4 survival/defense.  The only people complaining are the one's that abused the fact they could get over a dozen parts for cheesing the hell out of everything for an hour.

 

Probably one of the biggest reasons to remove void keys was keysharing and how often people would just scam other people. They key system was not perfect but it was work. The current relic system plunges you into hours of farming relics and hoping to get said relics and getting traces using some of the relics you've already farmed. It is good that there are nodes that have a guaranteed chance to get a relic, but those are as boring as the so called void missions you did back in the day. So in a sense get more friendly farming nodes like IO or Kala-azar or Xini and give the players a faster way to aquire traces. Otherwise the only reason the change was made was to make you buy prime access.

[VirtualViolet]

15 hours ago, Marthrym said:

True, I don't believe the impact we have on droprates is significant enough to warrant farming traces so much, but that was just one part of the problem I have with the "shiny little bars".  As for the "huge" impact on droprates relics have compared to keys, it only becomes anywhere near "huge" with radshare, which means 4 times as many relics, as well as 400 traces, all spent for a single solitary reward.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. 10% = 5*2% = a huge difference to me. Also, with a radshare, you're generally not farming 4 relics and upgrading them yourself. It's one relic per person, 100 traces per person for one reward per person with a roughly 35% chance of at least one of the rolls to be a rare. And yes, my math is correct. The chance of at least one rare (among four radiant relics) = 1 - (1 - .10)^4 = 1 - .9^4 = 1 - .6561 = .3439 = 34.39% (ok, so I rounded up). That's a heck of a lot better than the 7.8% chance of getting a rare from four intact relics. I'm not sure how you got 30.025%.

16 hours ago, Marthrym said:

I stated, CLEARLY stated, that I didn't think relics were worse than keys. I just don't think they're generally better either.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this as well. I do think they are generally better, and by a wide margin, specifically because they make it easier to get the particular parts you need while not actually costing that many more resources. Farming relics and farming traces and then cracking relics sounds like a lot of work, but those tasks are not mutually exclusive. You can crack junk relics for ducats at the same time that you're farming traces, and if you're lucky, you might even be able to farm relics at the same time if a fissure happens to be on the right endless mission (like a lot of Interception missions).

Anyway, my points are that I do not see the relic system as an effort by DE to make acquiring primes slower, which you specifically stated in your first post, and that traces DO allow you to significantly alter your chances of getting rare and uncommon rewards.

By the way, a lot of folks on the "anti-relic" side seem to talk about old endless void missions and getting loads of rewards from one key as if that was the only mission type in the void. Non-endless void missions had no such redeeming aspect, and were significantly more abundant than endless modes. If the part you wanted was on one of those missions, acquiring it was a huge pain and much worse than the relic system. If you think relics and old endless void missions are roughly balanced in terms of the grind, then I'd say that the old non-endless void missions tip the scales greatly in favor of relics.

[YUNoJump]

1 hour ago, VirtualViolet said:

If the part you wanted was on one of those missions, acquiring it was a huge pain and much worse than the relic system.

Important to note that Tower 1 keys also had a chance to drop more tower 1 and 2 keys on the same table as the primes. The amount of times I ran a tower 1 capture and got a tower 2 capture key as a reward is cancerously high. I couldn't be more glad to see the back of that system.

[Andaius]

Been playing roughly 3 years now, first 2 years old void system. Barely got about 50% of the prime stuff in that time. New Relic system comes in I manage to finish up all older stuff, and get pretty much everything up to date in 3 or so months. Do you guys actually remember how much utter crap drops you get with the old system? It's literally the same as you running single intact relics with only the common drops enabled. In the relic system on key has a chance to drop all the rewards listed did the void system give you a chance at rewards from tables ABC at 5 minutes? No? Oh thats Right it took 10 minutes and you still where getting reward A. 20 minute roll around oh yeah 2% or less chance of getting what you want compared to the previous poster giving your the 35% to get a rare at 5 minutes.

It's also been said, when you farm traces your also farming ducats and you have a chance to get rares too! When doing endless relic runs you can get over 100 traces for 20 minutes most of the time as well. Hunting for reactant is any better then just the old "kill stuff and pick up drops" you did in the void key system? nope it's just the same you just have to easily pick up 10 before the timer(if it's on that mission) ticks over. Not only do you get better drop tables for getting the stuff you want, you get to play something else beside the same tileset over and over for hours. Or do you really love that Void defense pod? Hell if you love it that much it's still there, nothing stopping you from playing that mission!

[MystMan]

3 hours ago, Andaius said:

 Or do you really love that Void defense pod? Hell if you love it that much it's still there, nothing stopping you from playing that mission!

Many have made this exact argument.  And you will get the same baffling contradicting reply:
But now there is no reason to go there anymore, prime parts don't drop there!

They love the void for being the void, not because of the rewards. So the prime rewards are now removed, suddenly they don't love the void to actually stick around in it anymore.
LOGIC!

And the credit cache, fusion core and orokin cell rewards we used to get as rewards?  Those are coincidentally never mentioned in their arguments. Cause apparently everybody enjoys going an hour of Void survival and getting only 3-5 prime parts because all the other rewards were non-prime junk. With relic system, you can get soooo many more prime parts within that same hour. If it's not what you want, it's still ducat fodder + some traces. Way better than credit caches and orokin cells.

It took me 3 months to get Loki Prime crafted with the old system.  With Relic system? I get everything in 1-2 weeks.  The effort:time:reward ratio is so much better.  I have to work harder now but it feels fair. With Void keys, the amount of work and time invested resulted in terrible payoffs, that felt so unfair. The effort:time:reward ratio was just terrible.

You could get multiple rewards with only 1 key in an endless mission, but the time it took to go from rotation to rotation was LONG and BORING (stop saying it was challenging, it wasn't. It was sleep-inducing). It adds up with you getting very few rewards for very much invested time. The average person often does not have that time. So they do rotation C once and then leave. Often those with way too much free time and do 2+hours endless forget that part, that they are not the norm.

[Dr_Wonderful]

I liked the keys cause as the supplier i make the team carry me so i can bring in and level up level 0 gear. Lots of people are willing to carry dead weight just so they can get a free key to the mission.

 

[(PSN)fullblast35]

Im for the void system. never hated it especially now that I'm more advanced.  but heres the thing:

 

Casual players used to spending money on a game due to lack of time, buy plat.  I think its kinda too late after all this time to reverse the process guys.

[WNxMatthew]

On 9/8/2017 at 10:25 AM, Syq111 said:

I practically rarely open relics.Why?? Because it's boring.Grab 10 reactants wait time or kill enmies and repeat.

Going based on this alone, if you compare to how keys were and how relics are now, not looking at the state of the relic, intact, radiant, etc., there is almost no difference besides the fact that you have to grab reactant. I remember when keys were around, everyone did the same thing they do now. For Exterminate, Capture, and Sabotage keys groups would just clear a mission and get out as fast as possible. For Survival, Defense, and Interception keys groups would stay as long as possible for more loot.

 

Also, yes the old key system sucked. I would always piss me off when I would run a key and on the C rotation we would get a fusion core pack or something else that was absolute trash.

[Moskri1312]

On 9/4/2017 at 12:05 AM, Littleman88 said:

Void keys sucked because we were stuck only ever seeing the Void, and nearly every prime item had a part tied up in rotation C of T3/4 survival/defense.  The only people complaining are the one's that abused the fact they could get over a dozen parts for cheesing the hell out of everything for an hour.

The new relic system lets us hit up whatever mission type we want (as long as it's available) and there are only so many items that can drop from each relic.  We're given the opportunity to influence drop chances on items too.  It's a vastly superior system for everyone that just didn't care to run hour long T3 void survivals.

 

 

But whats the end game now ? when everything could be done in 1 rotation C

[Lost_Cartographer]

1 hour ago, Moskri1312 said:

But whats the end game now ? when everything could be done in 1 rotation C

This one was fresh in the grave.

The endgame is what you make of it. There's little point in developing an actual endgame as people will just cheese it, win, then ask for the endgame again.

[YUNoJump]

14 hours ago, Moskri1312 said:

But whats the end game now ? when everything could be done in 1 rotation C

Void Keys weren't particularly more "endgame" than anything else at the time. They were probably the highest level content available, but that's not what makes content endgame. If we go by that logic then the definitive answer to "what is endgame" is Sorties, Trials and High Level Bounties, and problem solved. The only thing that made Void Keys more endgame than anything else was the massive time dump, and the fact that you were pretty much guaranteed to be doing Prime farming for longer than any other task. It's endgame-ness was only due to an intense grind wall which wasn't even based on any unique gameplay other than the Void tileset. Our new systems actually change gameplay, and I prefer diverse gameplay to grind walls.

[DeltaPangaea]

Uh, yeah so.

DE has buggered some things. Like REALLY buggered in some cases. The Plains have some harsh teething problems (Which to their credit they are busting &#! on), Focus and the Operators are a complete load, and somehow Archwing has gotten WORSE.

But Relics are so much of an improvement over void keys, like holy pogostick cheese-dipped christ are they better. Void keys sucked so impossibly hard. Now I can look at a relic, see what it's got in it, increase my chance of getting the rarest item in it to an actually entirely-reasonable 10%, and actually make progress towards getting the things I want without banging my head against a goddamn wall and having to group up with people to push as hard as I goddamn can in some hour-plus-long survival or defense. I can just calmly do my thing in Solo and pause when I want. Tab out and watch some videos for a bit. Maybe get a sandwich.

These last few days I was putting together Valkyr Prime. I looked at the tables of where to get the relics I needed, and oh look, Derelict Survival. I'd spend half an hour or so in there and come out with like six relics. There's even packs of 400 Endo in there, which ain't that damn bad either!

And then I find a nice Survival void rift to settle down in, crack open my Radiant relics and see what I get. One reward per five minutes, with the worst of them being a Forma. Not like 15-20 minutes each because that's the only rotations they drop. But while these relics are cracking open, I also get some credit caches, mods, sometimes a new relic, and then if I open five of them I get ANOTHER relic for free!

Void Keys as an endgame were friggin' stupid. Things being jacked up to like level 100 ain't fun after a 45 minute slog, which is what makes Sorties actually work. You're not burning yourself out before you actually get there. Plus, with the removal of void keys as an item for players to casually get and use by the truckload, void keys themselves are actually more relevant in the lore since they're not overexposed anymore.

Breaking down the bigass drop tables we had before into a pool of 6 items you have some degree of control over, and giving us MORE choice if we're playing with friends is possibly one of if not THE best change they've made when compared to what was in place before. Removing Ability Mods? Choice. Ditching stamina? Handy. Parkour 2.0? Nice.

Void Relics?

Friggin AMAZING.

[Lendalas]

On 9/3/2017 at 1:49 PM, Oksanya said:

the Void Keys actually felt like an end game to Warframe

Kind of agree with this. Fissure missions are overwhelmingly too easy to feel at least a little bit challenging. It feels like grinding loading screens. They are also scattered around all of the starmap which kind of makes the void lose it's status as a special place.

 

Other two reasons I dislike the relics are

1. Names. "Meso G2". Well what the hell is that supposed to tell me? 
2. Vaulting of primes still happens

[(PSN)Deathscythex01]

On 9/3/2017 at 4:54 AM, Marthrym said:

That's the whole point of the relics system : preventing the players from stockpiling and getting more than one part per run. It's a very simple concept : more grind, less rewards. 

This type of thinking is what turns new players away from games. While its true you had to farm keys that was actually easier to do than farming relics which to top it off you have to farm traces as well. I have to farm 2 things now instead of 1 where's the trade off exactly?

[Gamma745]

Just now, (PS4)Deathscythex01 said:

 I have to farm 2 things now instead of 1 where's the trade off exactly?

Trade off?

• You can get even the Rare Prime part much faster compared to the Void key system.
• You can play on different tilesets, fighting different enemies, play different missions

And you have to farm Void Traces? Which part of the game said that? Whoever said you can't use intact Relic?