Some basic concepts DE needs to understand

[Genitive]

23 minutes ago, Acos said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Try to have arguments that are convincing without proclaiming that everyone agrees with you just because you agree with you. 

My whole dilemma with Operators from the beginning is that they have always felt like an unfinished feature, and I was worried DE would lose focus (heh heh heh) and leave them incomplete as they have with MANY other aspects of the game. I'm personally very happy with Focus 2.0 as I think it makes all of the schools have something worth pursuing and gives the operators a larger supportive role than just being a pretty ornament in the Liset. 

I do think the grind associated with them is prohibitively high, and I don't think most casual players are really going to focus (oh ho ho ho) on them if things remain where they are. I know DE wants to sell focus lens, but you need to get us invested in something before you start charging money for it. Doing it backwards doesn't tend to work. 

Those puns...

Anyway, I am also satisfied with the new focus, maybe apart from a node or two. I agree that something needs to be done either with the node cost, or focus acquisition to make it more viable.

For example:
- Remove convergence orbs and increase affinity we gain from lenses
- Allow operators to gain focus when they kill something
- Give focus as mission/bounty rewards
- Give focus when we kill the sentient
- Give us an option to convert sentient cores to focus

[-Temp0-]

10 hours ago, Aekhon said:

I do, so don't presume to speak for all players when you don't, thank you very much.  I really like the direction they're taking the game with the dual focus between warframe and operator.

Effing monsters.

Quote

the only time i've ever seen people actually claim to actually like operators in the slightest is when people say the hate them

That is also true.

Quote

but i... i mean but WE DO LIKE OPERATOR AND SKILL BASED GAMEPLAY IN WARFRAME OMFG GET IT ALREADY etc. etc.

There's nothing "skilled" about playing as the emo. Get over it.

All you do is wait out the eidolon's attack in void mode and pew pew pew your crappy gun at the sentients. It's braindead easy. Everything in warframe and most games are braindead easy but at most/worst time consuming - which is what eidolons are after shield disruption nerf. Every boss fight is only hard is you're not prepared and uninformed. That will NEVER change.

Edited October 17, 2017 by -Temp0-

[Drago55577]

So is anyone who supports operators actually going to speak up on why operators or good, or just "You don't speak for everyone"? It's very clear why people don't want to play as operators. We don't want to be forced into a sub-par character to do things in ways that are worse than we can do normally. The only reason for such being "You have to lmao". Give me a good reason as to why I would ever want to put away my Tigris, Opticor or Hema, to instead fight enemies with a child who has no mobility, a gun that does no damage, and has less health?

Why? Why you reasonably want to do this? 

This is my entire problem with operators. They're bad. They're worse than a Warframe in literally every single way, the only reason you ever need to use them is because you're forced to use them. If they were interesting to play, or had fun and engaging gameplay, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem. But they're not. There's no incentives to use them, it's basically putting away your Tigris Prime to use an unmodded Mk.1 Braton. 

I play this game for the grind, and to be rewarded with better items, so in turn I can take on even harder enemies. That's not what operators do. You're rewarded with a trash-baby who can't do anything. I have enough problems with the game being braindead and easy. Nothing is solved by making it braindead and tedious. The Teralyst is easy to kill with the default weapons, it just takes so god damned long. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by Drago55577

[BlackCoMerc]

32 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

So is anyone who supports operators actually going to speak up on why operators or good, or just "You don't speak for everyone"? It's very clear why people don't want to play as operators. We don't want to be forced into a sub-par character to do things in ways that are worse than we can do normally. The only reason for such being "You have to lmao". Give me a good reason as to why I would ever want to put away my Tigris, Opticor or Hema, to instead fight enemies with a child who has no mobility, a gun that does no damage, and has less health?

Why? Why you reasonably want to do this? 

This is my entire problem with operators. They're bad. They're worse than a Warframe in literally every single way, the only reason you ever need to use them is because you're forced to use them. If they were interesting to play, or had fun and engaging gameplay, then sure, I wouldn't have a problem. But they're not. There's no incentives to use them, it's basically putting away your Tigris Prime to use an unmodded Mk.1 Braton. 

I play this game for the grind, and to be rewarded with better items, so in turn I can take on even harder enemies. That's not what operators do. You're rewarded with a trash-baby who can't do anything. I have enough problems with the game being braindead and easy. Nothing is solved by making it braindead and tedious. The Teralyst is easy to kill with the default weapons, it just takes so god damned long. 

It's like Archwing, Nitain and balance: the BEST the supporters of the status quo can say is "I don't mind" and that they find it tolerable. Because Tolerable should be the bar game play strives to meet.

Right.

Meanwhile, detractors give reasonable argument, like your own, for our perspective.

Operator game play is bad. It's slow, cumbersome and unengaging. Operators are weak, their VO is awful and their mechanics utterly subpar to Warframes.

[Sajochi]

Ok, I'll give some pro operator points seeing as the system is still being figured out and there are a lot of nuances within it that aren't fully realized. I enjoy playing as operator, more so than before. Before they were a mere afterthought that I would activate just to get energy, revives, or invisibility. There wasn't anything gratifying about them, and I only used the passive. Now, I'm using them more not because it's forced, but because I enjoy utility. I discovered a bunch of things playing with the new system

- Negative status effects do not transfer from warframe to operator. Since I play a lot of mag, I jump to operator if I get toxin proc'd to pseudo cleanse myself

- Warframes aren't vulnerable in operator mode. They get a grey to bar which indicates invincible. This doesn't extend to companions however

- Void dash is actually fun to use, and knocks down enemies at base. 

- Crouching takes enemy aggro off you, and you can revive squadmates in less optimal situations

- Void blast can temporarily stun enemies, and since the transition is a lot faster than before, you can pop into your frame for a sweet melee combo

These are just basics working with what little I was able to unlock, and I'm sure there are more interactions with the other points of the school. The only issue I have is the cost. It's way too high. I get that this system shouldn't be maxed in a day but most of the costs could be toned down. I haven't gotten an eidolon lens yet, so that perspective might change. 

My personal opinion is that I like the system and want to discover more of it. I don't feel forced to use it, and do use it more outside of operator specific conditions because the utility is too good to pass up. Go ahead, flame me for my opinion and tell me how other things can do X better. I'll gladly ignore you and play Warframe my way and using everything it has to offer. 

[Acos]

Operators offer support abilities for the Warframe through the new Focus 2.0, thus making them useful and allowing your Warframe far greater flexibility in gameplay than you had before by mixing and matching their combined powers. Is that the post you are waiting for? It just seems like a weird thing to state when you could probably figure this out by logging in and looking at what the Focus trees can do, but you're insisting on it so... there you go. 

They do have some actual combat utility, even without heavily investing in them. They can go stealth on command making them useful on frames who lack such options. You can pop out, melee a guy and knock him over, then switch back to your Warframe for a quick ground finisher which can deal a crap ton of damage to mini-boss like enemies. 

A lot of what makes the Operator useful isn't going to be readily apparent if you are using your new, level one operator, but the amount of advantages you can eventually get with them should make the grind worth it. Just don't get the wrong idea that the Operator is supposed to replace your Warframe; They work better working together.

[phoenix1992]

Much forcing so amaze.

13 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Is anybody going to continue playing it once they have all the rewards, just for the enjoyment of it? I seriously doubt it. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

 

No one is forcing you to do anything. You kill Eidolons if you want to deal with more operator customization, not for other progress.  It is like saying "I don't want to do Conclave and receive Conclave related rewards", just don't bother with things that do not fit your narrative.

 

13 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

Yeah, no.
Warframe is what you make it out to be. Another bloody tantrum over Zenurik in disguise, even thought passive energy regen was working only for 50-60% of the frames, players are putting it on pedestal 24/7.

And we reach back to the previous point - no one is *forcing* you to do anything. The only place in which Passive Energy regen was actually utilized with a big swing was endless modes, that are not mandatory ever since Specters of the rails changed how the void works.  
You don't want to be "hardcore" - then don't.
You want to participate in content and get rewards, that clearly do not suit your preference in gameplay - well this is another issue all together, isn't it?

PS: Don't speak for everyone, I do not like Operators or Spammers, yet I don't enforce my tastes on everyone, do I?

Edited October 17, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Yetman]

3 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

You don't want to be "hardcore" - then don't.

Here they come.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Yetman said:

Here they come.

But my Warframe is like Dark Souls jokes!

[BornWithTeeth]

I like Operators.

 

The concept is good, although sweet jesus their writing and dialogue needs an overhaul. Focus 2.0 is insanely grindy, but the upgrades for which you grind are genuinely good.

 

Also, let me point out a thing:

 

People who dislike Operators always seem to assume that they really do speak for everyone, and then when they find out that they don’t, that they may in fact not be the majority, they tend to deal badly with it. You’re lashing out and accusing people who disagree with you of being mentally sub-par fanboys because when you presumed to speak for them, they spoke up and said ‘Don’t speak for me. I don’t agree with you.’ 

It doesn’t look good. Other people are disagreeing with you on this specific topic, but they are not disagreeing with your right to have and express your opinion. You’re responding to this by attempting to invalidate their opinions. It’s not a very adult way to conduct a debate or discussion.

[Yuuhl]

13 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. 

but i want to play with my operator : (

[Yuuhl]

13 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. 

but i want to play with my operator : (

[-CM-NineFingers]

13 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I feel a lot of the changes in PoE are ultimately due to DE not understanding some key concepts about Warframe and its players. I'm going to try to explain them:

 

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Is anybody going to continue playing it once they have all the rewards, just for the enjoyment of it? I seriously doubt it. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

 

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

I feel that every single terrible design decision made in PoE boils down to DE's failure to understand the two above points. Thank you for reading.

Nice opinion there, but NEVER ACT LIKE YOU SPEAK FOR THE COMMUNITY. I like playing operator. So does a ton of people. You're not the community, so please, don't try to speak for it.

[BlackCoMerc]

45 minutes ago, Acos said:

Operators offer support abilities for the Warframe through the new Focus 2.0, thus making them useful and allowing your Warframe far greater flexibility in gameplay than you had before by mixing and matching their combined powers. Is that the post you are waiting for? It just seems like a weird thing to state when you could probably figure this out by logging in and looking at what the Focus trees can do, but you're insisting on it so... there you go. 

They do have some actual combat utility, even without heavily investing in them. They can go stealth on command making them useful on frames who lack such options. You can pop out, melee a guy and knock him over, then switch back to your Warframe for a quick ground finisher which can deal a crap ton of damage to mini-boss like enemies. 

A lot of what makes the Operator useful isn't going to be readily apparent if you are using your new, level one operator, but the amount of advantages you can eventually get with them should make the grind worth it. Just don't get the wrong idea that the Operator is supposed to replace your Warframe; They work better working together.

So...we should put up with slow, clunky, fragile, super squishy, badly written, mostly useless characters for months to...make them...what? Mildly useful for ONE task?

In what universe is this good game design?

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

All you do is wait out the eidolon's attack in void mode and pew pew pew your crappy gun at the sentients. It's braindead easy. Everything in warframe and most games are braindead easy but at most/worst time consuming - which is what eidolons are after shield disruption nerf. Every boss fight is only hard is you're not prepared and uninformed. That will NEVER change.

I need to point out what the previous guy thinks of "skillfull" gameplay is basically how limbo operates. You go up to a target hit him as long as you please, enter rift when danger comes, leave it and continue attacking, rinse and repeat.

[Fallen_Echo]

55 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Warframe is what you make it out to be. Another bloody tantrum over Zenurik in disguise, even thought passive energy regen was working only for 50-60% of the frames, players are putting it on pedestal 24/7.

I guess you havent seen waht they done to vazarin right? I as a zenurik player still has some access to some terribly designed ways of energy regen but vazarin.....its.......its gutted out.

Vazarin is no longer THE support focus, its a mangled corpse revived by some half-drunk grineer "doctor".

Lost the regainable revives, healing, powerful shield and so on. Its terrible.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Fallen_Echo said:

I guess you havent seen waht they done to vazarin right? I as a zenurik player still has some access to some terribly designed ways of energy regen but vazarin.....its.......its gutted out.

Vazarin is no longer THE support focus, its a mangled corpse revived by some half-drunk grineer "doctor".

Lost the regainable revives, healing, powerful shield and so on. Its terrible.

I am not arguing that the focus is wonky, and on prima vista...
Zenurik still gives some energy buff.
Naramon/Marudai still buffs your damage.
Unairu gives armor and damage reflect.
Zenurik gives... couple insta revives and affinity range.

It is kinda underwhelming, from my point of view.

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, Acos said:

Operators offer support abilities for the Warframe through the new Focus 2.0, thus making them useful and allowing your Warframe far greater flexibility in gameplay than you had before by mixing and matching their combined powers.

Okay, so why couldn't those powers just be given to warframes? Why do they have to come at the cost of having no health, no mobility, and no ability to deal damage?

[CuChulainnWD]

25 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I guess you havent seen waht they done to vazarin right? I as a zenurik player still has some access to some terribly designed ways of energy regen but vazarin.....its.......its gutted out.

Vazarin is no longer THE support focus, its a mangled corpse revived by some half-drunk grineer "doctor".

Lost the regainable revives, healing, powerful shield and so on. Its terrible.

It still gives revives. You do not accumulate them like you did before. Now they replenish on your next dash. It also heals you faster than rejuve.

I used it yesterday and it was fantastic. The operator is far less squishy. Coupled with The other waybound nodes and future upgrades, the complaints about operator mode and Focus 2.0 will fall off. 

We have to work for our rewards and see the returns. For about a year I had sweet FA to do. Why would l/we *@##$ now that we have something to do? We need to learn patience in this silly age of instant gratification. To know what it means to have earned something. 

I am into this game for the long haul. Why not take our time and enjoy what DE has offered us?

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by CuChulainnWD

[Fallen_Echo]

38 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

It still gives revives. You do not accumulate them like you did before. Now they replenish on your next dash. It also heals you faster than rejuve.

Can you prove that?  So far everybody i met told me that the only way to get the spent revives back is to die, they dont rejuve by time or action its a fixed amount.

[CuChulainnWD]

I used it. Try it yourself. What so i need to prove?

 Use all 4 then void dash to replenish.

[Sennera]

Normally I like to just join discussions I agree with and let the ones I disagree with be, but when someone starts trying to speak for me and gets my likes and dislikes completely wrong, I've got to step in and correct them. 

I like having the option to fight as an operator. 

The problem is more that the operator isn't powerful enough to justify it, and DE is p---yfooting around that issue trying to force us to play the intentionally weak operator through convoluted mechanics instead.

The warframe was meant to channel and control the too powerful and dangerous Tenno void energy. But when you change to Operator your raw void powers are incredibly weak and very situational.

Basically, at their core the Operators do not fit in a game focused on slaughtering armies of enemies in a matter of minutes, because they struggle to take down single solo units in under a minute.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Sennera

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Sennera said:

Normally I like to just join discussions I agree with and let the ones I disagree with be, but when someone starts trying to speak for me and gets my likes and dislikes completely wrong, I've got to step in and correct them. 

I like having the option to fight as an operator. 

The problem is more that the operator isn't powerful enough to justify it, and DE is p---yfooting around that issue trying to force us to play the intentionally weak operator through convoluted mechanics instead.

The warframe was meant to channel and control the too powerful and dangerous Tenno void energy. But when you change to Operator your raw void powers are incredibly weak and very situational.

Basically, at their core the Operators do not fit in a game focused on slaughtering armies of enemies in a matter of minutes, because they struggle to take down single solo units. 

Well said.

[ArbitUHM]

43 minutes ago, Sennera said:

Normally I like to just join discussions I agree with and let the ones I disagree with be, but when someone starts trying to speak for me and gets my likes and dislikes completely wrong, I've got to step in and correct them. 

I like having the option to fight as an operator. 

The problem is more that the operator isn't powerful enough to justify it, and DE is p---yfooting around that issue trying to force us to play the intentionally weak operator through convoluted mechanics instead.

The warframe was meant to channel and control the too powerful and dangerous Tenno void energy. But when you change to Operator your raw void powers are incredibly weak and very situational.

Basically, at their core the Operators do not fit in a game focused on slaughtering armies of enemies in a matter of minutes, because they struggle to take down single solo units in under a minute.

But, that's like, the point. Your operator powers are situational because there are few things that your warframe can't deal with on its own. Your operator is meant to be played as a support character, and most of the focus powers are designed that way - they generate a passive buff, CC, or other such effect, then you immediately switch back to your warframe. There are a few powers that require you to remain in operator mode like the Unairu cloak ability, but by and large operator powers offer an effect that's best taken advantage of in warframe form. 

That's why I don't understand these complaints about "playing" as the operator. You don't really "play" as the operator. Even during a teralyst fight, I spend more time as my warframe because the amp has a significant charge time and it is beneficial to transform back into your warframe and kill the physical form of vomvalysts while the amp is charging. On a regular mission, if I'm void dashing every 30 seconds to keep up energizing dash, that's 1/30 = 3.3% of my time as operator, and that dash can be used to close the distance with enemies, dash into cover, knock over enemies, etc.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, ArbitUHM said:

But, that's like, the point. Your operator powers are situational because there are few things that your warframe can't deal with on its own. Your operator is meant to be played as a support character, and most of the focus powers are designed that way - they generate a passive buff, CC, or other such effect, then you immediately switch back to your warframe. There are a few powers that require you to remain in operator mode like the Unairu cloak ability, but by and large operator powers offer an effect that's best taken advantage of in warframe form. 

That's why I don't understand these complaints about "playing" as the operator. You don't really "play" as the operator. Even during a teralyst fight, I spend more time as my warframe because the amp has a significant charge time and it is beneficial to transform back into your warframe and kill the physical form of vomvalysts while the amp is charging. On a regular mission, if I'm void dashing every 30 seconds to keep up energizing dash, that's 1/30 = 3.3% of my time as operator, and that dash can be used to close the distance with enemies, dash into cover, knock over enemies, etc.

And that dash could have just been a Warframe ability. An upgrade/side grade to Slide, through Focus trees. No need for force the Operator to do it.

That's just it: the operator was never necessary. We want to play with our Frames.