Some basic concepts DE needs to understand

[SnuggleBuckets]

I also hate operators, I never liked the aspect of having to play as an indoctrinated, dogmatic, brainwashed child soldier who sounds like a creepy nazi whenever they talk about purging places like they did in the good old days. I still haven't completed War Within because I have zero interest in playing as the operator more, and it's causing some frustration on the plains because apparently I need to do that quest to be able to deal with the bloody vomvalysts because apparently my second dream void beam doesn't damage them, I need the "proper" operator to deal with them.

Warframe feels the best when I play it as a powerfantasy, it instantly gets frustrating whenever "challenge" is introduced by unavoidable damage and broken armor scaling and twitch reflexes, and I enjoy plenty of "hard" games like Dark Souls or a few roguelites so don't go all Duke Amiel Du H'ardcore on me.

[Pawkeshup]

Here's the root of my issue.

Look at how the operator jumps when out of their Warframe. That's this entire update in a nutshell.

The jump is awkward, feels clunky to use, especially after bullet and double jumping through the rest of the game. It doesn't feel like it belongs with the rest of the game's mechanics. It feels like it's a step backward you'd hope that would be updated or removed once found. It's something with potential though, if it were going somewhere. If that awkward jump was just the operator learning to become the ninja they've been doing via projection, it makes sense to be there. I mean, if this update had your operator being trained to be a literal ninja, complete with double jumps, cool custom built weapons, and their void magic powering all that, this update and Focus 2.0 would have been amazing. But what do we have?

One very awkward hop that's so hard to mesh with what you do for 90% of the game.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Pawkeshup
Clarity

[Marvelous_A]

Focus 2.0 is a huge improvement over the beta version. But I'd agree there is too much investment to make operator viable. I mean, at least make some basic equipments accessible with credits. 

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, alexorcist said:

so really the only conclusion i can get from this is that people are at most indifferent to them but feel it's an attack on the entirety of the game itself and therefore must defend it and anyone else who disagrees in the slightest clearly hates the whole game.

Indeed. That's the defining trait of a fanboy right there, the utter inability to like some aspects of a thing while also disliking others, and the delusion that criticism aimed at particular aspects of that thing is an attack on the whole. "I like this thing, therefore everything about it is perfect and flawless, and anyone who criticizes anything about it deserves to die of cancer!"

People capable of thought of course recognize that that's not the case at all, and real fans realize that criticism is not an attack meant to damage, it's the opposite, it's an attempt to heal by pointing out that hey, this bit needs some tender loving care.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Yamaharo]

2 hours ago, MayssonFairbanks said:

I too was fine with Focus 1.0, in fact I kind of liked the idea of a dude sitting in his futuristic chair, remotely piloting warframes from the safety of his spaceship, and occasionnally bursting with psychic powers. I actually made way more sense than what we have now: a 15 year old kid who roams plains at night.

Focus 2.0 and Operator "warrior mode" or whatever it's called, both these features have certainly some potential, but clearly needs A LOT of work.

Compared to the rest of the game, operators feel so limited and so weak. like playing an unranked warframe without any mods nor abilities. Tbf at the moment, comparing warframes with operators is like comparing Warframe with Destiny. By pressing 5 players can instantly go from cool, fast-paced badassery, to slow, methodical, squishy, sluggish crap. At least in Destiny players actually have some sense of power, which is not the case with Operators.

PS: I heard that if players are willing to invest about 2 years as well as 7 billions Focus points then Operator can become somewhat good at killing one single monster (eidolons). C/D ?

I agree at least in Focus 1.0 you had some use to the operator , now i just hate it so much that if i have to press 5 one more time to kill a little rat mob i will just afk and let my wf die cuz the hell with this mechanic if u can even call it that .

It feels unclean to use operator , specially vs the big eldion , he has 10 small rats (that regen his huge &#! shield) and u cant do damage to him while the shield is up , untill now it sens fine but then u have his set of skills 1 an aoe arm with a machine gun (ez to dodge it) an aoe stomp( witch has a knock-back) a flair that literally hunts the closed enemy down , and that rampage mode that is an aoe massive damage dealing (and hard to doge) meaning the operator only gets this fight even harder .
The point of playing WF was to ave fun and HIT KILL Enemy's not to die every 5 secs cuz theres at least 11 mobs around me shooting ... if i wanted to get tilted i would go back in to playing something like DARK SOULS ... Operator isn't even close to be usable in combat its so bad to use it in real combat that i feel like a monkey(a dumb one) cuz its so annoying to change every 10 secs to it ...

Make the Boss easier or remove operators cuz the 2 ain't going to make old players stay (not all ppl opinion but its at least 70%) cuz its so useless and "unnatural" and makes the game flow so slow that it lost it's essence ... #MAKEWARFRAMEGREATAGAIN

BTW the changes to focus SUCK but that isn't the biggest problem ...

The bugs are getting every update worst and more random .

Fix the primary gun aim that disappears , making u use a 2nd weapon (usually has a lot less damage) ....

[LuckyCharm]

i disagree with both. I like my operator and I've waited a long time for it to actually be usable. It's still not quite there but its definately better than before. As for warframe being great for casuals.. it still is. Casual players shouldn't be handed end game things like eidolon fights and be able to complete them immediately. They're casual. They don't play near as much as people who actively level up and push their limits in game. Why should they be able to complete what is supposed to be end game as easily as someone who puts in hundreds of hours. 

As for the energy regen.. maybe that's why de changed it. You could literally keep spamming with no effort. You still can, it just requires a few more button presses every 30s or so. Its annoying but it is what it is. Personally I would have just left it and changed EV since that's the main cause of the spam meta, but with the outcry that will happen over that i guess they wanted to see how a smaller change would go first

[theghostofwar]

i personaly like the operators and would play them more if I was able to give decent weapons and a bit better survivability

[SordidDreams]

3 minutes ago, theghostofwar said:

i personaly like the operators and would play them more if I was able to give decent weapons and a bit better survivability

So in other words if they were more like warframes?

4 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

As for warframe being great for casuals.. it still is. Casual players shouldn't be handed end game things like eidolon fights and be able to complete them immediately. They're casual. They don't play near as much as people who actively level up and push their limits in game. Why should they be able to complete what is supposed to be end game as easily as someone who puts in hundreds of hours. 

A game that requires hundreds of hours of playtime to have a hope of defeating a boss is great for casuals? I think you and I have different definitions of what that word means.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Volinus7]

Red path : Your warframe threw the operator out of the airlock. 

Blue path : Your operator left ordis and warframes after instructed them to self-destruct.

Green path : Ordis destroyed both operator and warframes then teamed up with Stalker.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Volinus7

[Mr._Clean]

I like operator more than Archwing... which may not be saying much. But I still don't fancy using the operator and only do so if I have to (hint hint: if lots of people are trying to avoid a distinct system, changes are there's something wrong with it), it's annoying, feels forced and switches the gameplay to... I don't even know what instead of a fast-paced, high-mobility,  high-damage shooter. We get a squishy non-agile, low-damage kid who can slide around (thank goodness he can at least manage that) and dye their hair.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Mr._Clean

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

but i... i mean but WE DO LIKE OPERATOR AND SKILL BASED GAMEPLAY IN WARFRAME OMFG GET IT ALREADY etc. etc.

... srsly tho i was actually pleasantly surprised by the implementation of warrior operators. the transitions work smoothly and honestly the swift switching proves to be quite alot of fun to me, eg fighting vomvalysts. wouldn't mind more of that.

and i'm all for more skill based gameplay in WF, although i acknowledge your points why in its current design that's only possible to a point. especially on the plains it's indeed pretty much impossible to completely dodge enemy fire all the time. anyway i don't think our broken energy economy should be considered "by design", but rather "by powercreep" and as DE themselves stated not long ago they'd rather not see endless skill spam a thing. that being said the new zenruik is even more efficient than before and i don't see a a simple button combination which takes hardly more than a second as much of a chore tbqh.

anyway your points aren't basic concepts / fact but merely, like...

 

[Hexx]

12 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

but i... i mean but WE DO LIKE OPERATOR AND SKILL BASED GAMEPLAY IN WARFRAME OMFG GET IT ALREADY etc. etc.

... srsly tho i was actually pleasantly surprised by the implementation of warrior operators. the transitions work smoothly and honestly the swift switching proves to be quite alot of fun to me, eg fighting vomvalysts. wouldn't mind more of that.

and i'm all for more skill based gameplay in WF, although i acknowledge your points why in its current design that's only possible to a point. especially on the plains it's indeed pretty much impossible to completely dodge enemy fire all the time. anyway i don't think our broken energy economy should be considered "by design", but rather "by powercreep" and as DE themselves stated not long ago they'd rather not see endless skill spam a thing. that being said the new zenruik is even more efficient than before and i don't see a a simple button combination which takes hardly more than a second as much of a chore tbqh.

anyway your points aren't basic concepts / fact but merely, like...

 

i feel like you're missing the big picture here.

operators are secondary game play elements. you don't even know they exist until you're 80-90 hours into the game.

also, the game is called Warframe. the promo material is all warframes. the user videos, screenshots, all. warframes.

forcing this late-game mechanic to overshadow the title character, the basis for the whole kit 'n caboodle, isn't fun for everyone. ESPECIALLY, if not SPECIFICALLY when it's absolutely REQUIRED to do so, ALL during the biggest content update of the game's history.

seriously, the sheer basis for general game design is: don't make secondary mechanics a requirement to continue gameplay or access to/interaction with major/other critical pieces of it. give your users the option to devote their time these elements or not.

it's really, really ridiculous and frustrating having to argue and fight for literally first day game design 101 syllabus concepts.

(not directly against you ofc; tbh i'm almost jealous you're able to enjoy this aspect so easily b/c then i wouldn't have to devote effort trying to get a professional game company to see their Bad Ideas and withstand being called selfish and other rude phrases because i like having things optional and accessible to everyone)

[DonHotkey]

I completely agree with OP. All this operator mechanics seems extremely unnecessary and annoying.

[ragingdeamon]

This update changed nothing if you don't want to use the operator. All you need it for outside of the plains is getting Kuva. Everything in the plains you do with the operator serves to power up the operator. 

All you lost were some perks associated with the operator, like passive energy regen, damage or invisibility. And there's tons of workarounds for those. You can play most of the game just fine without ever using transference.

If you don't want to experience the plains without ever touching the operator just don't get out at night or avoid the sentients if you do. Killing an Eidolon is a great achievement, but the rewards don't interest you, so you can only do it once and be done with it. 

[Eivy]

I agree to an extent on operators. I like them, but I dont want them as a key focus. Frames should always be the focus.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

29 minutes ago, alexorcist said:

i feel like you're missing the big picture here.

operators are secondary game play elements. you don't even know they exist until you're 80-90 hours into the game.

also, the game is called Warframe. the promo material is all warframes. the user videos, screenshots, all. warframes.

forcing this late-game mechanic to overshadow the title character, the basis for the whole kit 'n caboodle, isn't fun for everyone. ESPECIALLY, if not SPECIFICALLY when it's absolutely REQUIRED to do so, ALL during the biggest content update of the game's history.

seriously, the sheer basis for general game design is: don't make secondary mechanics a requirement to continue gameplay or access to/interaction with major/other critical pieces of it. give your users the option to devote their time these elements or not.

it's really, really ridiculous and frustrating having to argue and fight for literally first day game design 101 syllabus concepts.

(not directly against you ofc; tbh i'm almost jealous you're able to enjoy this aspect so easily b/c then i wouldn't have to devote effort trying to get a professional game company to see their Bad Ideas and withstand being called selfish and other rude phrases because i like having things optional and accessible to everyone)

no offense taken at all :).

like i said i was surprised myself but the extra activity and seamlessness turned out to be fun factor to me. can't say i was looking forward to focus 2.0 AT ALL...

and tbh i think you're kinda exaggerating, operators are still far from overshadowing warframes, they're just a little complementary feature. and while eidolon hunting certainly qualifies as lategame difficultywise, if we look at the loot its only purpose is in fact pimping operators. so you're completely free to ignore them altogether and won't miss out on MR or anything otherwise essential.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[kTwn2]

7 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS

I bet i'm in the minority here but i disagree with this statement.  After playing a few days off PoE i really like playing my operator...  I can't wait to get more focus up to make her better.  I really love the look of some of the Focus passives for them.  My fear is the higher teir Motes are going to be more total crap like the freebie starter one.  I'd love to see them be a usable option for game play.

[Fallen_Echo]

I dont know why it is soo hard for DE to get up and fix operators.

The base idea was somehow good like @MayssonFairbanks said. Inside a futuristic chair a mutated superhuman controls and indestructible war machine.

IF DE want to go on this path on setting the operators free from their chair they need many things to do:

- Fixing the animations, because seriously they are horrible to look at and terrible to use.

-CUSTOMIZATION. We need it badly. Body sliders, face sliders, more faces, eyes, mouths, noses, ears, even more fashion pieces and so on.

-Actual void combat. No matter what you do the skills are always the same so lets change this. Let them gain the attributes of our frames and enchance the base skills with the warframe skills. An ember users operator launches a ball of fire when stops using the beam while deals extra fire damage, an ivara user releases bolt of energy damaging targets and turning allies invisible at the end of a dash and so on.

 

OR

 

if thats not your taste give them real armors with void specific weapons what deal atleast as much damage as our fully modded weapons. Let these weapons take the place of the beam, the dash and the invisibility and let us choose what we like.

You want a beam of death? Take an amp. 

You want something more drastic with aoe? Take a tesla mote and lauch an electric orb zapping everything in its way.

 

Tl;dr before pushing the operators anymore DE need to make them useable. Actually useable! 

 

[mottfried]

I totally agree with @SordidDreams

It's no fun playing the operator, it inteferes with a fluid gameplay ... and it's so useless when u have a fun and interesting warframe.

AND I do not like the energy regen change. This also stops a fluid gameplay. I have so much cool to use abilities in my Warframe and now I'm constantly searching for energy. Or i dont use my abilities to have the energy when I need. So Iam constantly saving my energy until the mission is over! On the other hand I must reset (or change the polarities) of some frames. Cause now I missing the passive regeneration and I need an additional source of energy or a larger energy pool. But a larger energy pool only creates useless waiting time!

But I have some additions:

• Brown enemies on a brown ground ... Guys did u play your game?
• Enemies that have the same or smaller size as the their surroundings ... Guys did u play your game?
• Enemies that shoot me from 200m or more and I cant see them cause they are so small.
• The useless walk to the gates after i finished my mission. Why is the exit point not marked with the green icon? Why cant my ship collect me near my last area of operation?

Right now Plains of Eidolon looks like a typically project management driven extension. There are some project leading guys that are no gamers or nerds. And those guys make the decisions. But these decisions completely failed. And i can't understand why you guys havent started a public or closed beta test with the community??? 

[Prophet_007]

I used to enjoy the old focus system  better. Ever since PoE came out for some reason my game crashes whenever i try to access the plains. Now this is the major issue for me, I have no cue about how the new focus system works or how farming works with all the new lenses and all. Without the plains my operator is ultimate trash. Its like as if im  playing the game before the second dream came up. Thats harsh...for soo long I've depended upon zenurick for energy or vazarin for healing and now Im just forced to play with frames having lifesteal or passive health regen or something like that sorts...that means no more loki, no excal to an extend etc...The game feels more stagnant for me now forcing me to revisit my old games. Im not pointing fingers or anything, just saying what i thought

[Lost_Cartographer]

please, stop speaking for everyone or pretending all of a sudden more than .1% of the game forces operator use.

I love the concept of the operator. I'm grateful they drastically upped the worth of intact cores, I wish they'd make the focus ball boost the standard rate for focus gain and ditch the ball together, and I wish they'd raise the focus cap a bit to match. I want to enjoy playing the operator. It's just going to take a while. Maybe too great a while unless I intentional farm an affinity farm node, because passive gain is slower than slow.

[BlackCoMerc]

7 hours ago, ENGINEEEEER said:

I too like playing the operator and the lore implications.

However, if operators are going to be a key feature, focus needs to be much more common so we can unbind those passive nodes and make operators decent. 

That's just it: we shouldn't NEED skill trees just to make something worthwhile. It needs to be AT LEAST serviceable from the start.

Operators...aren't.

[Prophet_007]

6 minutes ago, Littleman88 said:

, stop speaking for everyone or pretending all of a sudden more than .1% of the game forces operator use.

if this was meant for me, let me explain. if not..peace.IMO im not against the operator mode of playing actually i enjoy it a lot, except a few animations like jumping and all. The only thing is that now i feel kinda lost without my operator as none of the powers can be unlocked without PoE(and i cant access it). Atleast i wish that would change like we can farm and unlock new skills as we normally used to do. Let the armor and weapons remain as such in the plains but just the powers. Thats all im suggesting.

[MayssonFairbanks]

3 hours ago, ragingdeamon said:

You can play most of the game just fine without ever using transference.

You're right, all of this is optional, and players could avoid using those if they chose to do so. I for one enjoy this game because it allows me to play at my own pace, and make my own fun. It allows players to play with any frame, any weapon they want, if they choose so. Tons of ways to enjoy the game, and to have fun. What characterizes this game besides its awesome combat and movement, is the feeling of freedom. There are few requirements and few restrictions in this game (except for a couple of arbitrary stuff, such as weapons being locked behind MR but that's another topic).

In Warframe, players can choose to play the game any way they want, thanks to the various matchmaking options, many games modes, endless combination of gear & mods, team synergies; the game offers a lot of diversity when it comes to playstyles.

People can choose to play as a tanky war machine dual wielding machine guns that shoot explosive bullets, and wreck mobs in solo endless survival.

Or they can choose to play a stealthy interdimensional being wearing a top hat, equipped with a freaking BFG which through walls and makes enemies attack each other, and do alerts all day.

Or they can play as a deadly silent warrior who's part of some shady group of assassins, and whose only goal is to further the interests of his clan by playing the meta and hunting bosses in sorties.

Or they can play as a trigger-happy crazy dude able to set people on fire with sheer willpower, and equipped with a semi-auto rocket launcher, doing nothing but conclave.

Or they can choose to play as a pacifist ninja wielding nothing but a HUGE heroic-fantasy sword, and do nothing but spy / sabotage missions. 

Who knows what players are up to, possibilites are endless because this game is what players make of it. Unfortunately DE felt there was a need to outright destroy some of these optional playstyles that a lot of people found extremely fun, for no good reason if you think about it. Instead of keeping these features in the game, and expanding upon them, they simply decided to nerf them to the ground or remove them entirely. There are some people out there who would prefer having more options instead of less.

Edited October 17, 2017 by MayssonFairbanks

[Acos]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Try to have arguments that are convincing without proclaiming that everyone agrees with you just because you agree with you. 

My whole dilemma with Operators from the beginning is that they have always felt like an unfinished feature, and I was worried DE would lose focus (heh heh heh) and leave them incomplete as they have with MANY other aspects of the game. I'm personally very happy with Focus 2.0 as I think it makes all of the schools have something worth pursuing and gives the operators a larger supportive role than just being a pretty ornament in the Liset. 

I do think the grind associated with them is prohibitively high, and I don't think most casual players are really going to focus (oh ho ho ho) on them if things remain where they are. I know DE wants to sell focus lens, but you need to get us invested in something before you start charging money for it. Doing it backwards doesn't tend to work.