Why exactly is Chroma allowed to use self damage for Vex armor?

[Very_Melon]

Every other frame that has an ability boosted by taking/absorbing damage either had this functionality patched out or never got it in the first place since it came after the patched ones.

[Dragazer]

inb4 Chroma nerf, dat profile pic checks out

[Acersecomic]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Shush, Shhhhhh!

Edited October 24, 2017 by Acersecomic

[Very_Melon]

2 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

inb4 Chroma nerf, dat profile pic checks out

Long overdue, much like Tonkor was.

[Wolfglaive]

Good question. This absolutely should be patched out, it probably just wasn't as big a blip on the radar as some of the abilities which had this previously (until now, perhaps?).

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Because he can still kill himself. Rhino and Nezha are immune during their damage absorption periods, but Chroma continues to take (albeit reduced) damage.

Also, Nyx can absorb and multiply self-damage before hitting all enemies in range with it, so I think Chroma is a little bit lower on the scale of 'broken self-damage' than she is.

Edited October 24, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

35 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Because he can still kill himself. Rhino and Nezha are immune during their damage absorption periods, but Chroma continues to take (albeit reduced) damage.

Also, Nyx can absorb and multiply self-damage before hitting all enemies in range with it, so I think Chroma is a little bit lower on the scale of 'broken self-damage' than she is.

So? Trinity had the possibility of killing herself when the 99% DR Blessing was a thing.

Edited October 24, 2017 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[Doomsknightmare]

Well said. And Chroma deserves no nerf.

36 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Because he can still kill himself. Rhino and Nezha are immune during their damage absorption periods, but Chroma continues to take (albeit reduced) damage.

Also, Nyx can absorb and multiply self-damage before hitting all enemies in range with it, so I think Chroma is a little bit lower on the scale of 'broken self-damage' than she is.

 

[BiancaRoughfin]

42 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Shush, Shhhhhh!

I so need this for when i babysit my niece.

[Emulad0or]

37 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Because he can still kill himself. Rhino and Nezha are immune during their damage absorption periods, but Chroma continues to take (albeit reduced) damage.

Also, Nyx can absorb and multiply self-damage before hitting all enemies in range with it, so I think Chroma is a little bit lower on the scale of 'broken self-damage' than she is.

Shhhhh, don't push the nerf ball to Nyx, she still loses more energy the more damage she absorbs 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

So? Trinity had the possibility of killing herself when the 99% DR Blessing was a thing.

Yes, and they changed it not for the self-damage, but because they didn't like 20-30 seconds of party-wide 99% DR at the push of a button (especially since it also restored all health and shields).

Chroma, while capable of over 99% DR, does not apply it to the entire party. He only protects himself.

Also, to get the over 99% DR, you have to use Ice Chroma, which means you have no healing capability, unless your melee has Life Strike/Healing Return. This means any self-damage will reduce your over-all survivability due to the health lost over and above the amount needed for Fury

[Praxxor]

44 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Because he can still kill himself. Rhino and Nezha are immune during their damage absorption periods, but Chroma continues to take (albeit reduced) damage.

Also, Nyx can absorb and multiply self-damage before hitting all enemies in range with it, so I think Chroma is a little bit lower on the scale of 'broken self-damage' than she is.

Nyx can die due to too much self-damage, the energy lost is the same as if an enemy shot you, and to use that self-damage as damage you have to sacrifice your invincibility for Nyx, which is still a big enough trade-off IMHO.

[Dragazer]

1 hour ago, Praxxor said:

Nyx can die due to too much self-damage, the energy lost is the same as if an enemy shot you, and to use that self-damage as damage you have to sacrifice your invincibility for Nyx, which is still a big enough trade-off IMHO.

Nyx loses her energy and the absorb explodes but she never actually dies from it.

[Praxxor]

19 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Nyx loses her energy and the absorb explodes but she never actually dies from it.

Yeah but losing all your energy means death for a Nyx whenever you actually need to use the ultimate anyway.

[Epsik-kun]

2 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Also, Nyx can absorb and multiply self-damage before hitting all enemies in range with it, so I think Chroma is a little bit lower on the scale of 'broken self-damage' than she is.

I don't even care about the topic itself, but this particular statement is straight-up false. Transferring an arbitrary amount of self-damage into a single magnetic nuke with no corrosive/slash/viral proc potential, headshot/crit/stealth/CO synergy, melee availability, and questionable range of available weapons paired with a heavy energy cost, excessively long animation and mediocre area of effect is virtually nothing compared to x7+ damage for over a minute in a single cast without any of the aforementioned downsides.

Absorb tanks a lot of damage, but it is worthless at damage-dealing.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

58 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I don't even care about the topic itself, but this particular statement is straight-up false. Transferring an arbitrary amount of self-damage into a single magnetic nuke with no corrosive/slash/viral proc potential, headshot/crit/stealth/CO synergy, melee availability, and questionable range of available weapons paired with a heavy energy cost, excessively long animation and mediocre area of effect is virtually nothing compared to x7+ damage for over a minute in a single cast without any of the aforementioned downsides.

Absorb tanks a lot of damage, but it is worthless at damage-dealing.

I have never seen a Vex Armor build capable of 7x damage that lasts 60+ seconds. My own build, with 100% efficiency and 40% range, gives me 3.5x for 60.1 seconds. A max Strength build would only last around 50 seconds (and require constant use of energy pads), and a 60+ second build can only obtain up to a 6x damage multiplier (with the same energy pad requirement, due to low efficiency).

Don't go building a straw man just to make your case.

EDIT: Went to Warframe Builder and tested it myself.

A max Strength build gives 6.9x damage for 56.6 seconds. That's with as many strength/duration mods as possible. It also cannot be cast at the same time as Elemental Ward due to energy constraints, and does not increase armor of health, meaning you would be more vulnerable to damage.

A max Duration build gives 5.7x damage for 76.5 seconds. This is with as much duration as possible, and then strength. It has the same limitations as the previous build.

Neither of these builds are feasable due to their limitations, and yet neither of them reach your statement of '7x for 60+ seconds'. And while they may not have the downsides you listed, they have their own failings.

Edited October 24, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[Very_Melon]

6 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Because he can still kill himself

If you're a dumbass.

 

Also, Nyx? really?

Edited October 24, 2017 by Very_Melon

[RikerWatts]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

we can't afford more frame nerfs.

[Navarc]

Overlooked and at the time they were going through them, they didn't see any potential real harm it could do to the gameplay or meta which it didn't at the time, although now it is kind of problematic so I'm hoping they look into changing it soon.

[Ivan_Rid]

6 hours ago, Very_Melon said:

Every other frame that has an ability boosted by taking/absorbing damage either had this functionality patched out or never got it in the first place since it came after the patched ones.

Nightform Equinox does it as well, but no one cares.

[Phthisis]

6 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Nightform Equinox does it as well, but no one cares.

Because no one uses equinox and even if they did, they'd rarely use her night form. Most only see equinox as a budget ember prime because they dont want to forma/potato a normal ember.

[Epsik-kun]

8 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Don't go building a straw man just to make your case.

Do you even know what "straw man" means or are you just using a term you've seen other people use?

8 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

It also cannot be cast at the same time as Elemental Ward due to energy constraints

1) But it can;

2) What are energy restores/drops/Zenurik/EV/etc.

I admit that I've placed the buff numbers a tad bit too high. Which doesn't mean you can't get x7 damage multiplier for over a minute that'll be castable from the Chroma's regular energy pool (alongside with Elemental Ward) - you can, but that'll be detrimental to the overall build and a pain to enable. However, switching the new power strength mod for Primed Vigor will put you on the on the comfortable x6.75 over 63 seconds while providing enough stats to fully enable Vex.

8 hours ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

And while they may not have the downsides you listed, they have their own failings.

Yeah? Such as?

 

Look, I'm glad that you found a way to disregard the whole post by literally ignoring the point it makes, but if you can't take a hint, I'll enlighten you:

Just shooting/hitting an enemy with whatever Nyx got in her hands will be a much faster, much cheaper, and much more efficient way of killing the said enemy than trying to do it via Absorbed self-damage (assuming you're using delayed explosion weapons, as Assimilate won't allow you to do that anyway) because converting your attacks into the worst damage type in the game, stripping them off all the damage multipliers/procs aka "things that make weapons kill stuff" (no Absorb doesn't multiple the damage, it isn't AMD), and then returning it to the enemy through a terribly long animation isn't a good way of dealing damage to begin with.

Even if Chroma had no damage increase on Vex Armor, He would've still been better at dealing damage than Nyx trying to waste her time by killing stuff with Absorb - self-damage or not. But Vex Armor has a damage multiplier and it's huge. Saying "self-damaging Absorb is more broken than activating Vex with self-damage" is like saying "playing the game with a self-inflicted handicap is broken". Meaning it's wrong.

So, again, I don't care whether or not Chroma enabling Vex through self-damage a broken thing or not - I don't even play Chroma. But what you're saying is straight-up wrong and you're spending your time intentionally disinforming people. By the way, that also includes your post about Chroma "losing overall survivability" via activating Vex, because self-heal is so hard to get in this game. Like, it's nearly impossible to heal back 100HP when you only have meager 99% damage reduction. And of course, everyone switches weapons in Warframe all the time during the combat - given the game mechanics openly promote it - so surely dedicating a weapon slot for self-heal will have a huge negative impact on the player's overall performance. Not to mention, Chroma is literally the only frame in the game that benefits from a source of self-heal. Am I right?

Edited October 25, 2017 by Epsik-kun

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 hour ago, Epsik-kun said:

By the way, that also includes your post about Chroma "losing overall survivability" via activating Vex, because self-heal is so hard to get in this game. Like, it's nearly impossible to heal back 100HP when you only have meager 99% damage reduction. And of course, everyone switches weapons in Warframe all the time during the combat - given the game mechanics openly promote it - so surely dedicating a weapon slot for self-heal will have a huge negative impact on the player's overall performance. Not to mention, Chroma is literally the only frame in the game that benefits from a source of self-heal. Am I right?

Excessive sarcasm now. I see you have graduated to the next level after Straw Men. Congratulations.

Let's look at your proscribed healing sources.

1. Medi-Ray - Requires room on an already cramped Sentinel build, and also requires that your sentinel hasn't already died from some random enemy's AoE. Otherwise, a decent heal source, if it wasn't percentage based (and you only have 450 health, so losing 100 means at least 2 medi-ray activations).
2. Winds of Purity - This one actually made me laugh. Not only does the Furis do for damage, even with a 6x multiplier, but, since we are talking about using self-damage to max Vex Armor, it also limits you to self-damaging primaries, most of which wind up having enough damage to kill you through Vex Armor if modded properly (Zarr being the exception). This is why I use self-damage secondaries (see, I can embed hypertext also) for my self-damage builds.
3. Life Strike - You just used almost all of your energy pool on Vex Armor and Elemental Ward, and yet you can somehow still use Life Strike? At 7 energy per enemy hit?
4. Large Team Heal Restores - Any build that requires any of the restores (energy for casters, ammo for fire rate builds, shields for Harrow, or this) is not done properly. Restores should be either for emergencies, to jump-start you at the beginning, or as an aid to your teammates, not as a key portion of your build.
5. Healing Return - This is actually valid, especially with almost all nearby enemies getting cold-procced from Elemental Ward's effect. A little hard to slot into a normal build due to it's capacity, but since you have a 6x damage multiplier, damage mods aren't quite so important as in a 'normal' build.

Also even if you sacrificed one of the lesser power strength mods in the build for a base armor mod, you still wouldn't have 99% DR, you would have 98%. Which might not seem like a big difference, but 98% DR means receiving twice as much damage as 99% DR.

2 hours ago, Epsik-kun said:

What are energy restores/drops/Zenurik/EV/etc

1. Restores - See above
2. Drops - Because one 25 energy orb is going to help so much towards activating your 118 energy ability. Not everyone has Arcane Energize.
3. Zenurik - Our kids are a little tankier, but if I'm in a mission where I feel the need to bring a self-damage Chroma, I doubt I will be able to pull of a void dash every time I need to without dying. And since dying as operator reduces you energy pool, that only makes the situation even worse.
4. EV - Requires you to either specifically build your team, or be lucky enough to have a Trinity player join your random squad.

 

[Epsik-kun]

18 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Excessive sarcasm now. I see you have graduated to the next level after Straw Men. Congratulations.

Talks about "Straw Men".

Proceeds to ignoring the point for the second time in a row.

Alright.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

9 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Talks about "Straw Men".

Proceeds to ignoring the point for the second time in a row.

Alright.

Sorry, I couldn't see your point underneath all of the condescension and sarcasm.

I have the same problem, though.

So, could you spell it out, plain and simple, in 1-3 sentences.

Like this:

My point is that self-damage is a relatively balanced mechanic for Chroma, due to the possibility of killing yourself, and the fact that it limits your overall loadout options.

Edited October 25, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-