How can people steamroll missions so fast?

[ACULonSeer]

Know what my first battle against Lech Krill was like? 2 endgame dudes with a bunch of rivens and whatnot dashed way ahead of me and literally killed the boss within the first 2 minutes. I never even got to see him. While you could argue "you shoulda just kept up with the team, dude" its still a bit annoying how weak you can feel if youre being "carried" against your will. Maybe i just wanna fight a boss normally instead of mowing him down in 3 seconds?

I was going to propose a damage-scaling mechanic that would average out the damage outputs between players regardless of their progress on the star-chart, then i realized a system like this would be impossible due to how WF handles levels. Really the only thing separating a noob on Earth from a Sortie monster is the tier of mods they have access to, since players dont have actual levels. This should in theory put everyone on a "level" playing field, but it still feels like everyone is way stronger than me sometimes. Sure player skill is a factor, but it isnt THAT big a factor, is it? 

How is it that bosses can die so quickly, even with immortality periods like Lech Krill? What can be done (if not "should anything be done?") to prevent steamrolling like this? 

I suggest implementing mechanics in missions that challenge the player in ways that cant be solved with insane DPS. Parkour puzzles, races, something to make it a bit harder to rush everything. Alternatively just teleport everyone to the boss room so nobody gets left behind. Destiny does it, and it means everyone has an equal shot at fighting the Boss instead of one person killing everything while everyone else is trying to catch up.

[Carnage2K4]

Honestly, it's better to play with ppl your own level until you reach end game, be that a clan or friends...
I also found that many ppl would smash a level out before you even reach a boss, kinda ruins it... but not much you can do but proactively prevent it.

[Kyoresh]

6 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

Alternatively just teleport everyone to the boss room

Thats something I would like

[jjpdn]

That's the best part of Warframe for me.

I EZ mode the heck out of content, then go back and do them with less powerful but fun gear or ironic gear and have some fun with an actual challenge (pssss Quest replaying when). 

[DaftMeat]

5 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

Honestly, it's better to play with ppl your own level until you reach end game, be that a clan or friends...
I also found that many ppl would smash a level out before you even reach a boss, kinda ruins it... but not much you can do but proactively prevent it.

The problem is that the game will just randomly group an MR4 player with two MR24 players in PUB matches.

Matchmaking should really have some more filters to prevent this. It's a disservice to newer players to be constantly left in the dust.

[(PSN)adrian80]

Not related to boss fights, but most old timers probably remember Saryn’s miasma in void extermination runs. Combined with Volt’s speed, it was pretty epic. Good luck getting a kill.

[Carnage2K4]

1 minute ago, DaftMeat said:

The problem is that the game will just randomly group an MR4 player with two MR24 players in PUB matches.

Matchmaking should really have some more filters to prevent this. It's a disservice to newer players to be constantly left in the dust.

Cannot disagree.

[ACULonSeer]

This is why i made a post suggesting missions that challenged players at parkour, hacking, and other activities that cant be bypassed with DPS

[Ardhanarishvara]

Honestly, teleportation seems like the best method. There's issues with filters or averaging functions, in that people like to go fast and kill fast, and people might like to help newbies in a sort of "Look at me. You could be this." sort of way. The latter is surprisingly common. Personally I like to explain what happened and then do it again, though maybe in a more supportive role so they can feel it out for themselves also - but that's only if I get newbies to begin with.

Way I figure it, best possible scenario is notices. Nobody will like just being yanked from wherever they're exploring to the boss room, but nobody likes being left behind, but vets don't like being kept waiting too long, et cetera.

When the triggers for the boss fight to start are met, send a notice, sort of like extraction. There'll be a 30 second timer, after which people will be yanked to the boss no matter what they're doing unless 2/3rds of the team minimum votes to extend the timer, but it can also be hurried in a "I got that ayatan sculpture I didn't wanna miss, let's do this" sort of way.

[Rhekemi]

37 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

Know what my first battle against Lech Krill was like? 2 endgame dudes with a bunch of rivens and whatnot dashed way ahead of me and literally killed the boss within the first 2 minutes. I never even got to see him. While you could argue "you shoulda just kept up with the team, dude" its still a bit annoying how weak you can feel if youre being "carried" against your will. Maybe i just wanna fight a boss normally instead of mowing him down in 3 seconds?

3

Right now, the best way would be to find new players to squad up with, or friends who will understand (and listen if you ask them to slow down) that you want to participate.

Quote

I was going to propose a damage-scaling mechanic that would average out the damage outputs between players regardless of their progress on the star-chart, then i realized a system like this would be impossible due to how WF handles levels. Really the only thing separating a noob on Earth from a Sortie monster is the tier of mods they have access to, since players dont have actual levels. This should in theory put everyone on a "level" playing field, but it still feels like everyone is way stronger than me sometimes. Sure player skill is a factor, but it isnt THAT big a factor, is it? 

5

It is, as you said, a combination of high-tier mods, higher-tier weapons, multiple forma on weapons/frames (and new players often don't even have catalysts/reactors) that give higher level players their significant killing power.

Player skill likely comes into play regarding movement and map awareness (quickest way to get to the boss, etc), as well as knowing the boss' weak spots and weaknesses. It is true that new players can struggle with finding a boss' weakness (damage type) and weak spots (example: Sargus Ruk).

Quote

How is it that bosses can die so quickly, even with immortality periods like Lech Krill? What can be done (if not "should anything be done?") to prevent steamrolling like this? 

 

I have to agree with @DaftMeat, matchmaking would help a great deal.

Quote

I suggest implementing mechanics in missions that challenge the player in ways that cant be solved with insane DPS. Parkour puzzles, races, something to make it a bit harder to rush everything.  Alternatively just teleport everyone to the boss room so nobody gets left behind. Destiny does it, and it means everyone has an equal shot at fighting the Boss instead of one person killing everything while everyone else is trying to catch up.

1

Challenges that cannot be trivialized with insane damage would be good, but examples of it in the game now are few and far between. I will say that DE has tried to remove (or change) weapons and abilities that trivialize content. As for teleportation, it wouldn't help in Warframe. Right now, you basically get to the table and higher level players have already eaten the cake. If you all teleported to the boss, you'd get a plate, ready your fork, and almost get a piece of cake to your mouth when higher level players would eat it for you. Could be equally or more frustrating, depending on the player. (It's their mods and gear that trivialize the content you're all set to grind through, in the end. It wouldn't matter much if you got there at the same time.)

Oh, hey, one good rework I noticed was Raptor (on a Corpus ice planet I can't remember). Europa, I want to say. The boss requires more teamwork and participation now, and the boss' difficulty level scales upwards. I've seen mixed squads (new and older players) struggle together on it (myself included), but the mission was new then. I'm not sure if people have found a way to speed-murk Raptor now.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Rhekemi

[KIREEK]

31 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

, but it isnt THAT big a factor, is it? 
 

It is.

The skill required to do more in less time is very considerable, it's not the prime warframes or 1 corrupted maxed mod that makes players good, it's the effort into actually using the mods you have and that requires alot of time, time to master the parkour system, time to mod better for the situation you're in, time to learn the maps.

Each mission is used by some players to improve themselves and it's obvious that after 5k missions, things get into a line of perfection that no content can match, it's not maiming strike that does the difference, it's a collection of things and many players search every single advantage they have.

I can say from my experience that these players are very rare, most players are average and you can easily get to their level pretty quickly.

[ACULonSeer]

2 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

It is.

The skill required to do more in less time is very considerable, it's not the prime warframes or 1 corrupted maxed mod that makes players good, it's the effort into actually using the mods you have and that requires alot of time, time to master the parkour system, time to mod better for the situation you're in, time to learn the maps.

Each mission is used by some players to improve themselves and it's obvious that after 5k missions, things get into a line of perfection that no content can match, it's not maiming strike that does the difference, it's a collection of things and many players search every single advantage they have.

I can say from my experience that these players are very rare, most players are average and you can easily get to their level pretty quickly.

I would agree with player skill being the defining factor if most missions didnt devolve into speedrunning through every enemy, completing the objective and hitting extraction while the Noobs are left fending off the mobs. I mean, i can put on a rush mod too, so speedrunning isnt really THAT hard. This kinda thing is especially apparent on Capture and bosses because the objective in no way involves killing the normal enemies. Im always left in the dust because i like to kill everything. 

[KIREEK]

But that's average, the really good players kill and do the objectives fast.

Anyone can run and you will reach a point where you will do the same, killing and moving fast, that's the hard part.

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

I would agree with player skill being the defining factor if most missions didnt devolve into speedrunning through every enemy, completing the objective and hitting extraction while the Noobs are left fending off the mobs.

I think the real problem with most of the Warframe setup is that while we're encouraged to revisit old missions for resources, drops and so on, there's absolutely no way to differentiate between a skilled player and an unskilled player.

Mastery Rank means precisely nothing as it's all based on what weapons and other gear you've levelled, we tested with an alt account in 2015 and got to MR 18 in 18 days, hitting the Mastery test every 24 hours, and it was relatively easy with a bit of platinum for rushing the Foundry builds and three other people boosting on the specific farming nodes.

There really isn't a matchmaking function that would actually work off any existing stat in the game... although MR might come into it a little in the sense that you unlock and complete certain quests based on progression... So if you simply made it so that an MR 12 and over player couldn't match up with a lower ranked player in Public mode, that wouldn't be so bad.

The one thing that I can suggest for you, as a new player, is find a clan. The community here will help you out a lot more than you'd think, and answer questions, come with you on runs. If you ask to be able to take the lead on those runs, then if any clan worth any time from you will do just that, they'll keep an eye on you and not let you die, or at least pick you up if you get knocked down, and make sure the mission is a success if you can't, but for the rest they'll let you find things out and try your own strategies. If the clan has a Discord or similar, get on that, talk to people in game while you play and you'll be amazed at how much faster you can learn.

Heck if you're in the UK or near it, look me up in game, I should have a spot free in my little clan. most of the clan is on an erratic schedule for the holidays, but a few of us always sign in to keep up the daily grind.

[ACULonSeer]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

I think the real problem with most of the Warframe setup is that while we're encouraged to revisit old missions for resources, drops and so on, there's absolutely no way to differentiate between a skilled player and an unskilled player.

Mastery Rank means precisely nothing as it's all based on what weapons and other gear you've levelled, we tested with an alt account in 2015 and got to MR 18 in 18 days, hitting the Mastery test every 24 hours, and it was relatively easy with a bit of platinum for rushing the Foundry builds and three other people boosting on the specific farming nodes.

There really isn't a matchmaking function that would actually work off any existing stat in the game... although MR might come into it a little in the sense that you unlock and complete certain quests based on progression... So if you simply made it so that an MR 12 and over player couldn't match up with a lower ranked player in Public mode, that wouldn't be so bad.

The one thing that I can suggest for you, as a new player, is find a clan. The community here will help you out a lot more than you'd think, and answer questions, come with you on runs. If you ask to be able to take the lead on those runs, then if any clan worth any time from you will do just that, they'll keep an eye on you and not let you die, or at least pick you up if you get knocked down, and make sure the mission is a success if you can't, but for the rest they'll let you find things out and try your own strategies. If the clan has a Discord or similar, get on that, talk to people in game while you play and you'll be amazed at how much faster you can learn.

Heck if you're in the UK or near it, look me up in game, I should have a spot free in my little clan. most of the clan is on an erratic schedule for the holidays, but a few of us always sign in to keep up the daily grind.

Thanks for the support! Im in a clan with a friend already actually, and have a pretty good understanding of the game as a whole. I just hate that bosses can be instakilled so fast and that i never really get the chance to prove myself when everyone else is pressing-4-to-win

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 minutes ago, ACULonSeer said:

Thanks for the support! Im in a clan with a friend already actually, and have a pretty good understanding of the game as a whole. I just hate that bosses can be instakilled so fast and that i never really get the chance to prove myself when everyone else is pressing-4-to-win

Hey, no worries ^^ Still, it might be a good idea to grab your friend and go for Invite Only missions, that way you're off Public and only the people you want to join you can. This game is always more fun to run with a friend anyway XD

[Kefirno]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:10 AM, ACULonSeer said:

Maybe i just wanna fight a boss normally

Lech Krill? No. You don't. Trust me. I mean, you can want to fight him normally, we all want, but DE doesn't want us to, they want invincibility phases.

 

Spoiler

I hope janitor won't get mad on me this time. Lech Krill seems to be a sensitive topic here according to my experience.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Kefirno

[(PSN)ParteeGarcia]

I hear you. Players new to the encounter would still like to learn how the battle works. Maybe a message with an option to teleport to your squad initiating the boss fight, or bosses should be more elaborate and have phases. While the faster players initiate the fight, they can work on the first phase and give time for others to catch up.

[CanadianWolverine]

On 12/7/2017 at 1:38 PM, ACULonSeer said:

This is why i made a post suggesting missions that challenged players at parkour, hacking, and other activities that cant be bypassed with DPS

So... a Spy or Rescue mission?

 

Really, if you like to play the game at a slower pace, get Loki. And either play with other like minded people or play solo. When I just want to chill and enjoy looking at the awesome levels, Loki Prime is my main squeeze. Found some really cool stuff in the levels that way while smelling the roses and backstabbing ones way through the tulips is quite enjoyable as well. Extra challenge? Do it with any frame and try to sneak kill everyone, you'll feel like a Batman that isn't afraid to kill the bad guys for a change.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

On 12/7/2017 at 1:10 PM, ACULonSeer said:

Know what my first battle against Lech Krill was like? 2 endgame dudes with a bunch of rivens and whatnot dashed way ahead of me and literally killed the boss within the first 2 minutes. I never even got to see him. While you could argue "you shoulda just kept up with the team, dude" its still a bit annoying how weak you can feel if youre being "carried" against your will. Maybe i just wanna fight a boss normally instead of mowing him down in 3 seconds?

I was going to propose a damage-scaling mechanic that would average out the damage outputs between players regardless of their progress on the star-chart, then i realized a system like this would be impossible due to how WF handles levels. Really the only thing separating a noob on Earth from a Sortie monster is the tier of mods they have access to, since players dont have actual levels. This should in theory put everyone on a "level" playing field, but it still feels like everyone is way stronger than me sometimes. Sure player skill is a factor, but it isnt THAT big a factor, is it? 

How is it that bosses can die so quickly, even with immortality periods like Lech Krill? What can be done (if not "should anything be done?") to prevent steamrolling like this? 

I suggest implementing mechanics in missions that challenge the player in ways that cant be solved with insane DPS. Parkour puzzles, races, something to make it a bit harder to rush everything. Alternatively just teleport everyone to the boss room so nobody gets left behind. Destiny does it, and it means everyone has an equal shot at fighting the Boss instead of one person killing everything while everyone else is trying to catch up.

No it's been an issue since i started playing the game. Even now with the years of playing I don't really like the headlong speed run mentality that affects alot of players. In some instances it is appropriate, you doing a sabotage alert might not be the right time to explore and look for caches, or scan that synthesis target. But yeah most of the first times I ever fought boss, even with friends and clan mates, I never got a chance to experience the battle fresh as a new player.

But on the other hand, most of the bosses are so corny that it's not really worth the hassle of getting the "true" experience. With the exception of a few bosses most of the fights are really silly one trick easy button kill. And most of the challenging ones are only challenging because they have invincible phases which artificially extends the battle.

Boss mechanics are truly one of the places this game lacks polish in. And with the insistence of loot RNG forcing players to kill the same boss multiples times in a row its kinda ludicrous they don't make an effort to come up with more interesting and complex boss mechanics, not just clock running gimmicks like invulnerability phases.

[Michkoch]

On 7/12/2017 at 6:10 PM, ACULonSeer said:

Know what my first battle against Lech Krill was like? 2 endgame dudes with a bunch of rivens and whatnot dashed way ahead of me and literally killed the boss within the first 2 minutes. I never even got to see him. While you could argue "you shoulda just kept up with the team, dude" its still a bit annoying how weak you can feel if youre being "carried" against your will. Maybe i just wanna fight a boss normally instead of mowing him down in 3 seconds?

I was going to propose a damage-scaling mechanic that would average out the damage outputs between players regardless of their progress on the star-chart, then i realized a system like this would be impossible due to how WF handles levels. Really the only thing separating a noob on Earth from a Sortie monster is the tier of mods they have access to, since players dont have actual levels. This should in theory put everyone on a "level" playing field, but it still feels like everyone is way stronger than me sometimes. Sure player skill is a factor, but it isnt THAT big a factor, is it? 

How is it that bosses can die so quickly, even with immortality periods like Lech Krill? What can be done (if not "should anything be done?") to prevent steamrolling like this? 

I suggest implementing mechanics in missions that challenge the player in ways that cant be solved with insane DPS. Parkour puzzles, races, something to make it a bit harder to rush everything. Alternatively just teleport everyone to the boss room so nobody gets left behind. Destiny does it, and it means everyone has an equal shot at fighting the Boss instead of one person killing everything while everyone else is trying to catch up.

Oh jeez, if you really have a problem just play solo, or invite friends intead of playing in PUBLIC. it is not that hard, come on...