Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Maka.Bones:

Would also enable him to take the damage required, to build up vex armor. 

 

+1 I like the new changes. It sounds awesome

will probably never happen... sadly

Edited February 12, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Maka.Bones]

12 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

will probably never happen... sadly

:/ We can hope lol

[Emgiell]

Personally, a huge problem with Chroma lies in the fact that you just use Elemental Ward and Vex Armor only.

What do people expect him to do? What do people want him to do that actually involves player input?

[TheGrimCorsair]

9 minutes ago, Emgiell said:

Personally, a huge problem with Chroma lies in the fact that you just use Elemental Ward and Vex Armor only.

What do people expect him to do? What do people want him to do that actually involves player input?

Battle-buddy-buff-bot would be a better role for him than his previously fitting the berserker-archetype better than Valkyr. Heck, it even plays well with the newly team-friendly Vex Armor. To be honest, it's probably closer to what DE envisioned to begin with. Round out Effigy and Elemental Ward, and maybe give Spectral Scream a bit more base range.

Not saying Vex's math couldn't use another pass, it can, just that folks need to put the pitchforks and torches down. It's a flippin' Monday. Y'know. Monday. First day of what is, typically a 5-day work week. This one following the release of a major patch, which usually means several smaller hotfixes throughout the week, with a larger, more robust one coming out around Thursday.

[EinheriarJudith]

and inaros is a tank, and valkyr is a tank, and nidus is a tank and frost is a tank. what is the point? chroma is still tanky. what? mad about DE fixing something that was outragously broken? his damage was higher, insanely higher than everyone elses. now his damage is on mirage lvl but hes tankier than mirage so.... the only fault here is that DE took to long to address it and like all things that happen like that, the moment you take it away people will complain.

Edited February 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Me.KayOh]

42 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

It's a flippin' Monday. Y'know. Monday. First day of what is, typically a 5-day work week. This one following the release of a major patch, which usually means several smaller hotfixes throughout the week, with a larger, more robust one coming out around Thursday.

Nah. These people clearly love their pitchforks. I tell you, having a different opinion is like scratching a match in a cave packed of dynamite. I absolutely love how, the change came from DE's own mouth (Rebecca's own mouth to be precise) that Vex Armor's old math was and have been unintentional and that it's been a long standing issue, but brought to the forefront recently with the release of eidolons. But nah, that's not good enough. 

[Reifnir]

Well, now you can have a frame that requires a self-damage weapon or some natural incoming damage to be marginally better than your typical Roar Rhino in terms of team damage buffing and significantly worse than him in survivability, CC and mobility. Oh, and also a pain in the arse to build (yes, Kela, I'm looking at you!). Balanced!

Meanwhile, Eidolons are still being one-shot, because hey, Rivens still exist. Gotta love how instead of fine-tuning, some frames receive the nerfhammer to the face treatment... 

 

[EinheriarJudith]

13 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

Well, now you can have a frame that requires a self-damage weapon or some natural incoming damage to be marginally better than your typical Roar Rhino in terms of team damage buffing and significantly worse than him in survivability, CC and mobility. Oh, and also a pain in the arse to build (yes, Kela, I'm looking at you!). Balanced!

Meanwhile, Eidolons are still being one-shot, because hey, Rivens still exist. Gotta love how instead of fine-tuning, some frames receive the nerfhammer to the face treatment... 

 

while i agree they have no valid reason for embers nerf, i see nothing wrong with them fixing what they have said before to be broken and unintended which is vex armor. ill add that all team buffs should be affinity range period why is there even any team buff range lower than 50m?

[Sluglyn]

Chroma's buffs are all over the place, cold Elemental Ward reduces more damage than Scorn(1029%) at my current 294% power strength, the buff from my Fury(808%) equates to less than 4x the weapon's current damage (ranging from 200%-600% instead of the full 800% damage depending on the weapon, and what mods are on it) the entirety of Vex Armor just seems like it's a lot of bad math on top of bad math and modifiers.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

7 hours ago, John411 said:

I made a small edit to the post where i put the calculations through a calculator and this is how it turned out

 

Old:

((350*1.1)*5.23) = 2013.55

 

New:

(350*(5.23+1.1) = 2215.5

 

Difference:

201.95 in the new Vex Armor's favor.

 

New with New Numbers:

(350*(10.46+1.1) = 4046

 

If i have made an error inc this can you tell me where, i'm actually curious because i've seen some older calculations that say armor at like 12k+ and i don't know how else it is wrong, maybe not including power strength maybe?

Here's my build up that is in the pictures and calc.

now i don't have Steel Fiber on it so that too might effect the calculation.

This calculation is false. You are not factoring base armor modifers correctly. The correct formula is base armour × (1 + base armor modifiers). So with steel fiber alone, the formula is 350×(1+1.1). Ice Elemental is another base armor, as is the new Vex Armor. Marginal benefits dictate that stacking modifers additive to eachother is less potent than splitting modifers, so thus, this is strictly a nerf.

Let me give you the formula of steel fiber and 200% Power Strength vex armor, which you've shown. 

Old: (350×(1+1.1))×(4.5×2) = 6615

New: 350×(1+1.1+4.5×2) = 3885.

Now lets add in Ice Elemental ward.

Old: (350×(1+1.1+1.5×2))×(4.5×2) = 16,065

New: 350×(1+1.1+1.5×2+4.5×2) = 4935

My old preferred build had 324% Power strength and didn't use steel fiber due to the fact that the damage buff was also important.

With the old formula, i'd get

(350×(1+1.5×3.24))×(4.5×3.24) = 29,903.6

New: 350×(1+1.5×3.24+4.5×3.24) = 7154

So you see were the trouble lies in the formulas.

EDIT: Going over your first post, you also misrepresented how damage buffs work. Banshee stacks sonar spots multiplicatively, so 3 spots on one area at 200% PS is equal to 10^3, or 1000x damage. Not 14x. Also, chroma's fury buff is now a base damage modifier, which is additive to serration and heavy caliber, so at 299% PS, a weapon with serration and heavy caliber would only get a 2.48x damage buff due to the additive nature of the buff. This is less than rhino due to the fact that roar is s total damage multiplier, has less range, less duration, doesn't affect non weapon abilities, and requires you to hit yourself or take dangerous damage. Your rubico test is off due to the combo multiplier being different and mods not present. The way fury was bugged before was that it would double dip on combined elementals and triple dip with base combined elementals. This is known fact. 

I was the guy that originally pointed out the rhino thing, and i was one of the first to know exactly how chroma was getting his buffs.

EDIT 2: To top this off, you misrepresented the old and new buffs. The buffs did not change. You can tell because in the fury buff is also different in your clip. I was always able to get 10.46x armor from scorn. Your builds are different, as are the amount of damage to shields you took.

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[xmegarockx]

increase chroma armor TO 800.

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

and inaros is a tank, and valkyr is a tank, and nidus is a tank and frost is a tank. what is the point? chroma is still tanky. what? mad about DE fixing something that was outragously broken? his damage was higher, insanely higher than everyone elses. now his damage is on mirage lvl but hes tankier than mirage so.... the only fault here is that DE took to long to address it and like all things that happen like that, the moment you take it away people will complain.

 

DE caused the original problem with Vex double dipping in the first place. Vex being multiplicative was not a fix. It was programed that way intentionally be it short sighted or otherwise. Mirage also has Multiplicative damage bonus and can reach much higher damage than new Chroma given the tileset agrees with her.

DE's claim of Vex being " in-line with other damage buffs " is false made evident by both Rhino and Mirage. The fact they went far to say " Damage multiplier " in the final patch notes was pretty triggering and a bit insulting to anyone who knows how to really stack on damage.

Also the reason you may think that Chroma's damage is on par with Mirage is that unknown to most players Mirage's displayed Damage buff is not static from light to dark areas. The Damage bonus varies based on the intensity of light that you're in. Similar to how Octavia's Amp functions with sound, except Mirage (after many of the lighting effect changes) has suffered since there are fewer places with bright enough light to grant the full buff stated in the UI.

I can prove that Mirage is multiplicative with these two pics. Both are using Gorgon with Serration + Heavy Cal and no other mods.

This is Chroma with +959% base damage which after math checks out to the proper damage amount with some slight off-set due to rounding.

This is Mirage with +696%. You'll notice despite their damage bonus being very different they're doing exactly the same damage.

I also have other pics showing how Eclipse varies in damage increase based on light using the exact same build and method.

Here I am with my normal Mirage build which uses Less bonus Damage at +496% but it's doing more damage with the same Gorgon.

As for Chroma being tanky... There's already plenty of posted evidence to the contrary.

[EinheriarJudith]

12 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

~snip~

some of you are talking about this like DE just said something new. de talked about this a couple of times before they made an attempt a while back to fix it the first time. why are you suprised. also once chroma reachs his max vex buff it doesnt fall off as easily as mirage who needs a strong light source to get her max damage buff. people talk about rhino and forget there are other damage buffers like nova and banshee. there is nothing new here only upset players left from DE taking too long to fix a long standing issue. when people get used to something and its pulled right out from under them there will only be complaints they should have fixed it sooner but here we are.

Edited February 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Emgiell:

Personally, a huge problem with Chroma lies in the fact that you just use Elemental Ward and Vex Armor only.

What do people expect him to do? What do people want him to do that actually involves player input?

most frames evolve around 2 abilities. but yes thats not to say it should be this way. i would love to use more abilities but instead of making the other chroma abilities good DE destroyed vex armor and with it elemental ward. now we have 0/4 good abilities.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb EinheriarJudith:

and inaros is a tank, and valkyr is a tank, and nidus is a tank and frost is a tank. what is the point? chroma is still tanky. what? mad about DE fixing something that was outragously broken? his damage was higher, insanely higher than everyone elses. now his damage is on mirage lvl but hes tankier than mirage so.... the only fault here is that DE took to long to address it and like all things that happen like that, the moment you take it away people will complain.

yes and no. the berserker role fits better with valkyr true. but chroma is/was the tank in this game. DE should have focused around that. as i said. instead of making him a team buffer the should have created an ability (for example scretch spectral scream for something new) that gives chroma the ability to taunt enemies. as a result he would be a viable options for any defense mission becajse he literally protects the whole team from taking dmg. also chroma would still be able to go on solo missions because as it stands now he just cant. 

as you can see i love chroma as a team player but DE did it in the wrong way. he was a tank so why not finally turn him into a real tank? i mean this game has a bunch of tanks but noone is really tanking for the team - atm they are all selfish.

 

PS. and also inaros and valkyr are tanks. thats fine. did you know that OBERON is right now a better tank than chroma? oberon has more EHP. this is just rediculous

Edited February 13, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[DeadlyCreation]

btw what do you think about making chromas buff have no cap? (or making it really really high - somewhat a cap around the 100k mark) just like octavia/nidus - but making it build up really really slow. as a result he wouldnt be overpowered in short lasting mission because he has no chance to build up his buff. but he could run longer missions and scale with the enemies - something this game needs more.

i mean we got nidus and octavia that do the exact same. 

i know self dmging weapons could easily exploit this but DE could simoly add a passive that gives chroma immunity to als self dmg (and make the current passive the first ability so we can finally switch elements in combat).

[EinheriarJudith]

4 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

yes and no. the berserker role fits better with valkyr true. but chroma is/was the tank in this game. DE should have focused around that. as i said. instead of making him a team buffer the should have created an ability (for example scretch spectral scream for something new) that gives chroma the ability to taunt enemies. as a result he would be a viable options for any defense mission becajse he literally protects the whole team from taking dmg. also chroma would still be able to go on solo missions because as it stands now he just cant. 

as you can see i love chroma as a team player but DE did it in the wrong way. he was a tank so why not finally turn him into a real tank? i mean this game has a bunch of tanks but noone is really tanking for the team - atm they are all selfish.

 

PS. and also inaros and valkyr are tanks. thats fine. did you know that OBERON is right now a better tank than chroma? oberon has more EHP. this is just rediculous

i had also thrown my vote in with spectral scream being some kind of shout that could force target people have suggested it a few times its not like DE didnt know. they know we dont like spectral scream as it is now but when a dev cant let something go there is little we can do about it. a reason why we still dont have a good built in vacuum.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 1 Minute schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i had also thrown my vote in with spectral scream being some kind of shout that could force target people have suggested it a few times its not like DE didnt know. they know we dont like spectral scream as it is now but when a dev cant let something go there is little we can do about it. a reason why we still dont have a good built in vacuum.

yeah. its just sad that seeing good intentions being implemented in the worst way possible. the idea of chroma tanking the team could have been so much cooler if chroma would still be tanky. and thats not even talking about the stupid range on vex armor. even on hydron my team wasnt able to stay in the 18m radius all the time -why? because movement is key in this game.

they should have just left the tankyness and removed the dmg exploit

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, DeadlyCreation said:

yeah. its just sad that seeing good intentions being implemented in the worst way possible. the idea of chroma tanking the team could have been so much cooler if chroma would still be tanky. and thats not even talking about the stupid range on vex armor. even on hydron my team wasnt able to stay in the 18m radius all the time -why? because movement is key in this game.

they should have just left the tankyness and removed the dmg exploit

i said it in an earlier post and in some thread before that team buffs should be affinity range. no reason for them not to be especially since bless is affinity range harrow has 2 powers that are affinity range if im not mistaken, also oberon has 1 i think is affinity range.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i said it in an earlier post and in some thread before that team buffs should be affinity range. no reason for them not to be especially since bless is affinity range harrow has 2 powers that are affinity range if im not mistaken, also oberon has 1 i think is affinity range.

exaclty. and being on PoE that is 100% needed. heck in there i sometimes stumble out of my mates trinity range when doing bounties. so yes it should be affinity range!

[Walkampf]

vor 22 Minuten schrieb EinheriarJudith:

i had also thrown my vote in with spectral scream being some kind of shout that could force target people have suggested it a few times its not like DE didnt know. they know we dont like spectral scream as it is now but when a dev cant let something go there is little we can do about it. a reason why we still dont have a good built in vacuum.

It'll make me sound like a broken record,

but of you want to become a *tank*, just use http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Guardian_Derision. When using a fitting weapon, with high enough Blocking and also Lifestrike/healing Return you are also solving Chromas survivability issues that you tell your self he is having. (Instead of foceing a taunt mechanic on people who maybe want to play Chroma a a firebreathing damage dealer. Yeah, you are screwing those people over real good, with you blockhead idea.)

But I already hear you say: 'Oh, but then we are locked into using a melee weapon and we can't kill stuff anymore!'

You want to force stereotypical RPG roles onto Warframes?(An idea which doesn't work, but that's an entirly different discussion in itself) 

Take a guess at what a tank doesn't do? Leading the damage tables!

So, just as in RPG you whould have to make a choice and you are just unable to do so. You want aaaaall the things.

The issue on Chroma is not that he is missing anything, the issue is, that some people are just mad because he can't dominate anymore just by simply being Chroma.

 

EinheriarJudith is an absolut awesome example for this completly deranged mentality so many of the people here are showing, by bringing up Vacuum.

It is fact, that every Warframe no features universal Vacuum and it is still not enough to fill this endless gluttony of some people.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

It'll make me sound like a broken record,

but of you want to become a *tank*, just use http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Guardian_Derision. When using a fitting weapon, with high enough Blocking and also Lifestrike/healing Return you are also solving Chromas survivability issues that you tell your self he is having. (Instead of foceing a taunt mechanic on people who maybe want to play Chroma a a firebreathing damage dealer. Yeah, you are screwing those people over real good, with you blockhead idea.)

But I already hear you say: 'Oh, but then we are locked into using a melee weapon and we can't kill stuff anymore!'

You want to force stereotypical RPG roles onto Warframes?(An idea which doesn't work, but that's an entirly different discussion in itself) 

Take a guess at what a tank doesn't do? Leading the damage tables!

So, just as in RPG you whould have to make a choice and you are just unable to do so. You want aaaaall the things.

The issue on Chroma is not that he is missing anything, the issue is, that some people are just mad because he can't dominate anymore just by simply being Chroma.

 

EinheriarJudith is an absolut awesome example for this completly deranged mentality so many of the people here are showing, by bringing up Vacuum.

It is fact, that every Warframe no features universal Vacuum and it is still not enough to fill this endless gluttony of some people.

first of all. no sane chroma player plays with spectral scream it has no useage. so why not making it a taunt ability.

also wth. first chroma isnt leading the @(*()$ leadboard of dmg anymore. his buff got recked. 

then make it so as long chroma taubts enemies he cant shoot. just how spectral scream works now.

so when he is tanking he tanks.

 

alsi you said forcing nornal rpg types on warframe doesnt fit. yes but gues what atm chroma is just a bad buffer. a casual rpg typ.

Edited February 13, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Walkampf]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb DeadlyCreation:

first of all. no sane chroma player plays with spectral scream it has no useage. so why not making it a taunt ability.

then make it so as long chroma taubts enemies he cant shoot. just how spectral scream works now.

so when he is tanking he tanks.

If you whould be fine with him 'just' tanking the option is already ingame. And if you were statisfies with that, you'd hardly argue to give Chroma more freebies.

Use Vaykor Sydon as a tanking weapons, with it's 80% damage reduction on top of the easily reachable 90% reduction through chromas armor values and you are looking at a damage reduction of over 98%

Add Vaykor Sydons additional Blind which charges extremly fast with taunting and a skilld player is able to reduce even more damge.

See, that is my exacly the point i'm making. You are absolutly gluttonous.

Tell me a number, how much damage reduction whould Chroma need for you to be statisfied.

Give me a concrete number and not some arbitrary statement like 'Enough to survive a hit from a level XXX Bombard.'

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

If you whould be fine with him 'just' tanking the option is already ingame. And if you were statisfies with that, you'd hardly argue to give Chroma more freebies.

Use Vaykor Sydon as a tanking weapons, with it's 80% damage reduction on top of the easily reachable 90% reduction through chromas armor values and you are looking at a damage reduction of over 98%

Add Vaykor Sydons additional Blind which charges extremly fast with taunting and a skilld player is able to reduce even more damge.

See, that is my exacly the point i'm making. You are absolutly gluttonous.

Tell me a number, how much damage reduction whould Chroma need for you to be statisfied.

Give me a concrete number and not some arbitrary statement like 'Enough to survive a hit from a level XXX Bombard.'

and thanks for the insults again.

 

but yes i can understand your point and yes you are right. i just thiught that vaving a frame specific from team tanking would be a nice idea. didnt even have to be chroma. could be entirely new. but anyway yes i can see your points and building him a tank would actually be fine.

but still his abilities remain bad. you could run your weapon/mod combination on oberon and be more tanky atm. so the problem remains. he needs something

[Walkampf]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

Tell me a number, how much damage reduction whould Chroma need for you to be statisfied.

Give me a concrete number and not some arbitrary statement like 'Enough to survive a hit from a level XXX Bombard.'

 

vor 3 Minuten schrieb DeadlyCreation:

but still his abilities remain bad. you could run your weapon/mod combination on oberon and be more tanky atm. so the problem remains. he needs something

Give.

me.

a.

number.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Walkampf