What's the point of figuring out your best/optimal build & combos, if they're just gonna get nerfed? (Not a Sh!tpost)

[Maka.Bones]

TLDR: Read the title, and the bold texts.

It's honestly starting to feel like we're all just supposed to play one *uniform* way, and that's very sad. Though I'll admit that it's probably me just being paranoid/negative... but it's still true that oftentimes when players come up with super efficient/effective/optimal setups, those warframes/weapons/builds get nerfed. I'm also embarrassed to admit that i'm probably not exactly making things any better... but what can we really do about it? 

I was playing with some guys who were using a mag/saryn combo last night, which my buddy and I have used before--It's highly effective at clearing most trash enemies, and weakening anything else that might survive. When I saw they were also using it, I found myself saying what I said in the pic (and now I kind of feel disgusted that I said it... but it honestly feels true sometimes, and it's very sad).  So I realize that i've basically become paranoid against playing my favorite/most effective builds... simply because i'm scared that they're gonna get nerfed. That's not... very fun...

pls read the text, the convo happened while in a mission. I just took a picture of it after I was done. (btw yeah I sound like one of those salty ppl who want to nerf everything... sorry about that. It  really wasn't my intention)

I'm also taking this as an opportunity to show off my room decos--since fashion frame, and room/dojo decorations are the only things guaranteed to never get nerfed. :P 

 (Speaking of which, i'm absolutely loving how many new dojo/room decos, and deluxe skins DE has been adding. TYVM for those @DE. I honestly wish I could get my Dojo's main hall decos rated by Rebb/Meg/Geoff, though ajingom does much more amazing things than anything I have lol)

 

Anyway back on subject...

No, i'm not trying to mention the mag/saryn combo so DE nerfs it... I doubt it matters that i'm posting it on the forums, since they would find out about it eventually. I just think it's particularly ironic that "the combo" involves two warframes that keep getting nerfed, and buffed. But yeah, it's pretty sad that as players we now have to resort to "hushing" or hiding our playstyle--refraining from showing our build creativity--to prevent from getting our most fun, or efficient builds from getting nerfed. Honestly makes me wonder if that's really playing/enjoying the game... or just conforming to the same thing everyone else is doing (until that also gets nerfed). I do get their rational behind nerfing things though. It's just that there are also other easier, faster, and fun-er options.

 

So I thought of a possible idea that might help with it: Introduce 1-4 alternate game modes

1) Warcheese misssion mode (kinda like URF mode, in league of legends):

• Allow more shenanigans, and re-implements old pre-nerf stats of weapons like arca plasmor, synoid simulor, mirage, ember, and maybe even add more absurdities & shenanigans
• This would be separate from story progression, or any substantial game contribution. It's mainly for shenanigans or polymer/oxium farming :P

2) Legendary mode:  (similar principle as Vauban's passive, but for enemy units)

• Instead of enemy spawns increasing with more tennos.... Enemy spawn #s remain the same as single-player mode, but their stats scale higher with each additional tenno in the party
• Higher reward yield than regular missions--Increased difficulty, would also mean that enemies take more thought/teamwork/effort/time to kill
• Turn off any auto-kill mechanics (like covert lethality)
• Specific units, might require specific strategies/combinations to kill them
• I'd either make enemies extremely easy to kill, but able to oneshot any warframe... Or extremely hard to kill, but doesn't immediately kill a tenno (still can kill em in about 3 shots though)

3) Clem, Arcade-Shooter Mode: Literally let us play as Clem... or use him as one of the fighters in the "Fight fight fight!" game mode

• Unique mechanics/abilities for clem
• Infinite Twin-Grakata ammo  (Kinda like time-crisis, arcade mode.... plus the dude never runs out of ammo)
• Separate mods that we can loot for clem/twin grakatas (i mean, it can be the same mods as our own... but we can't use ours. We need to unlock mods for clem, because those are his mods... not ours. No sharing :P ) 

4) We (us players) could all just let other people have fun....? This one is really important. 

• Don't be selfish tenno.--Think about if you were in that same situation, as the other tenno
• if you're feeling salty/left out that you don't have another person's setup, well you can always work for it as well! :D
• ask for help with getting the stuff you need!
• Except rivens... rivens are pure RNG and they hate us all. Hate the riven though; not the player

I realize this might seem like satire, and while It was my intention to be comical... I'm actually serious about these ideas (or something similar) . Idk if DE would do them, but it would be fun AF. It would also add more challenge/incentives that require less work to implement, than adding a completely new open world.  _{Oh, and raise your hand (like this -->  o/  ) if you've actually read the entire post.}

 

Hope you guys enjoyed reading this~

 

Edit: Also, this guy did a much better job at explaining/communicating my point:

Edit: I just remembered that DE was adding warframe fight game? I guess that's cool too. Then maybe just add clem as a fighter option, instead of clem mode :P

And check out Ajingom's youtube channel here, for awesome decorations (No, i'm not associated with him/her in any way... i just love the decos):

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJEaI7QtXrndiWtEXVTXsdg

 

TLDR: Read the title, and the bold texts.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Maka.Bones
I just wanted to type something in this box.

[Sormaran]

Well your screenshot explains it all. By the fact that you got ignored by them right away, and rightfully so.

"Hey! Ey im talking to you! No fun allowed! Dont play like that! How dare you!" 

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/29/2018 at 12:18 AM, Sormaran said:

Well your screenshot explains it all. By the fact that you got ignored by them right away, and rightfully so.

"Hey! Ey im talking to you! No fun allowed! Dont play like that! How dare you!" 

Yes... I absolutely don't want anyone to have ANY fun.... that's exactly why i said "be careful not to abuse something, or the devs will nerf it" *sarcasm*

Did you... actually read what I wrote? Because I honestly don't get how you're understanding that, from what I said. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Maka.Bones
Man... some people are so looking for the worst in others, without actually seeing what the person's intent is.

[Iamnotanoob]

I dont know about the alternative game modes (They look great tho). But yeah Nowadays there will always be someone who wont like your playstyle "Nerf slide/maiming" "Nerf mirage" "Nerf ember" etc.. and i only see people complain more and more about things  ,If you dont like someone's playstyle you can join another session instead of spamming nerf threads. Also i would say Dont let anyone else control how you play the game , You can play in whichever way it seems fun to you. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Iamnotanoob
Missed a word...

[Maka.Bones]

se 

6 minutes ago, Iamnotanoob said:

I dont about the alternative game modes (They look great tho). But yeah Nowadays there will always be someone who wont like your playstyle "Nerf slide/maiming" "Nerf mirage" "Nerf ember" etc.. and i only see people complain more and more about things  ,If you dont like someone's playstyle you can join another session instead of spamming nerf threads. Also i would say Dont let anyone else control how you play the game , You can play in whichever way it seems fun to you. 

Yeah, i'm with you 100% tbh. Either of the people can play by themselves....

But like you said, there's always gonna be salty people who keep crying "nerf, nerf nerf!!!"  And DE tends to listen to them pretty often...or the devs themselves might actually want to nerf something, even if no one complained. 

That really feels like it's just punishing creative play. What's the point of figuring out your best/optimal build & combos, if they're just gonna get nerfed? 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[krc473]

13 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

It's pretty sad that as players we now have to resort to "hushing" or hiding our playstyle--refraining from showing our build creativity--to prevent from getting our most fun, or efficient builds from getting nerfed. Honestly makes me wonder if that's really playing/enjoying the game... or just conforming to the same thing everyone else is doing (until that also gets nerfed)

What a totally pathetic excuse. The only one mentioning the possibility of nerfs is you. You basically spammed some poor person with junk about why they should not play the way THEY want to. You basically come across as just another salty person.

[Maka.Bones]

On 3/29/2018 at 12:26 AM, krc473 said:

What a totally pathetic excuse. The only one mentioning the possibility of nerfs is you. You basically spammed some poor person with junk about why they should not play the way THEY want to. You basically come across as just another salty person.

Yeah, i suppose you're right. My bad with that... Though that's why I also said  

On 3/29/2018 at 12:09 AM, Maka.Bones said:

(and now I kind of feel disgusted by it... but it honestly feels true sometimes, and it's very sad)

And honestly, it still doesn't change that it's true. Now i'm even paranoid against playing the builds I enjoy the most, because it might just get nerfed. I was telling them to be careful with that.

Edit: And spam is a pretty gross exaggeration. More of a short rant.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Maka.Bones
Seriously... What's up with all these rude ppl? Guess they feel "justified" simply because they disagree? I mean... you could just say "no, i don't agree. I also think you're going about it the wrong way"

[krc473]

2 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah, i suppose you're right. My bad with that... That's why I also said 

But it still doesn't change that it's true. 

And you posting this to the forums will mean that DE totally avoids seeing it right?

Basically, you are part of the "problem". Discussing the method on the forums is what gets stuff nerfed (because alone public games have no impact on anything). And what did YOU do? Posted it on the forums. You are doing exactly what you told those people may happen.

 

So, you are warning people that 'somneone' (unspecified) might complain publicly about the playstlye. And you are making it known to everyone on the forums that you think it is nerf worthy. So, you are being the person you warned the group about.

[Maka.Bones]

43 minutes ago, krc473 said:

And you posting this to the forums will mean that DE totally avoids seeing it right?

Basically, you are part of the "problem". Discussing the method on the forums is what gets stuff nerfed (because alone public games have no impact on anything). And what did YOU do? Posted it on the forums. You are doing exactly what you told those people may happen.

 

So, you are warning people that 'somneone' (unspecified) might complain publicly about the playstlye. And you are making it known to everyone on the forums that you think it is nerf worthy. So, you are being the person you warned the group about.

Except that it hasn't become a problem yet...?  This thread isn't even about mag/saryn. It's about something else altogether lol. I'm not complaining about them... Pls chill man

Stop attacking me

Edit: It becomes a problem when/after a lot of people complain about it making the game un-fun, or w/e. That's not what i'm doing here.That's not my intention/objective.  So please relax... no need to attack me. Please just read what the post is actually about. 

(And regardless of me saying it, or not... they would find out eventually.  So no, i'm not really contributing to the "nerf" mindset. There are a lot of other cheesy warframe memes I could also complain about  but i'm not. Im only using this one specifically as an example, because it was relative to the situation/moment, and they're both frames that have been nerfed/buffed/changed already)

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Xaero]

I haven't changed my Excal build since his rework in 2015, and it's still very effective.

[Maka.Bones]

7 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

I haven't changed my Excal build since his rework in 2015, and it's still very effective.

Yeah excal is sitting in a pretty good spot atm. Though i'm surprised his exalted blade wasn't nerfed/changed again. I'm not saying *every* build is gonna get nerfed. The title is a hyperbole, yeah. But it doesn't mean that it hasn't happened for other frames/weapons. Or that it won't continue to happen. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[_Vortus_]

Play what and how you want to.   If it gets changed, adapt.  Chances are if something gets fixed, it was broken and not working as intended.    Regardless of how you were using it.   So enjoy it while you have it and move to something else when its changed or gone.   Simply to much stuff to allow yourself to be tied down to a few things anyway.

[Loswaith]

Simple fact remains stuff needs to be adjusted to hit a balance, sometimes that means (heavy) nerfs, sometimes that means buffs.

Just because certain combinations are highly effective doesn't mean they will get a nerf unless they break the game as DE sees it.  Sure people may think that the reason is because "everyone" is using it, or is it simply "everyone" is using it because it breaks the game (letting them trivially get past things that DE never planed them to get past without a lot of player skill or effort).  Most of the nerfs are due more to the latter reasoning than the former.

 

Keep in mind if something stops players being able to actually contribute, for DE that is a bad thing as they have to consider all players (not something most players really need to consider, but would be nice if they did).  Letting all players have some ability to contribute is actually better for the game on the whole, even though it may not be better for the individual, because it is a co-op game, thus about the group, not the individual.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Loswaith

[Maka.Bones]

I wonder how many people have actually read the full post... Please raise your hand if you have. 

[Maka.Bones]

54 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Play what and how you want to.   If it gets changed, adapt.  Chances are if something gets fixed, it was broken and not working as intended.    Regardless of how you were using it.   So enjoy it while you have it and move to something else when its changed or gone.   Simply to much stuff to allow yourself to be tied down to a few things anyway.

Yeah, I try to for the most part... but at what extent is it enough? at what extent has it become too much? At what point does everything feel just like everything else...? 

They shouldn't nerf warframes for "balance/diversity" ... that's the reason they make new warframes/missions/content to begin with.  Plus there isn't much difference between enforcing *specific* kinds of "diversity" through changes, from just enforcing a specific type of playstyle.  (The reason I bring up diversity, is because if one warframe seems to break the power curve, then everyone usually uses the same thing.... similar to chroma. But the chroma changes still haven't changed the current "meta"  and people still oneshot the dolons... also nerfing Ember's WoF range, encouraged people to come up with cheesier memes.So the original problems have't really been "fixed" by these changes)

So yeah, i'm kinda trying to think of a middle/common ground for everyone.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

34 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Keep in mind if something stops players being able to actually contribute, for DE that is a bad thing as they have to consider all players (not something most players really need to consider, but would be nice if they did).  Letting all players have some ability to contribute is actually better for the game on the whole, even though it may not be better for the individual, because it is a co-op game, thus about the group, not the individual.

yeah... i'm exactly not disagreeing with you lol.

2 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

4) We (us players) could all just let other people have fun....?

• Don't be selfish tenno.--Think about if you were in that same situation, as the other tenno
• if you're feeling salty/left out that you don't have another person's setup, well you can always work for it as well! :D
• ask for help with getting the stuff you need!
• Except rivens... rivens are pure RNG and they hate us all. Hate the riven though; not the player

 

 

[FrostedMike]

I skipped most comments because I feel like it's just bashing OP's opinion.

Coming from a developer point of view, I think some nerfs are justified, including Ember (try me). But here is the deal, frames and weapons are getting nerfed of buffed when it conflict design. Yeah, some nerfs should have been implumented a while before they got it, but we can ignore it.

Lets take Chroma for example.
Chroma's Vex Armor got changed (I think it's not enough to call it a nerf) because it chould one shot an eidolon. Why DE did that? Because the eidolons, their most precious "boss" cuold be one shotted by a single bullet and a single frame without any help. It's not easy for the developer to see how easily thier boss gets taken down while it was suppose to be a challenge and a team effort. Vex armor got changed to fit other abilities by having the buff applied before the mods (this is the so called "nerf") but is also an aura so team mates can also get the buff. Now to take down an eidolon in a single shot you can't do it alone, but still "possible". This is working as "intead", at least when it comes to the "team" part. Technicly, yo get the same or even higher buff with Vex armor because not only the Chroma shoots but the rest of the team does. Eidolons are being taken down just as easily as before, just in a different way.

Ember was able to clear low level missions by simply being around. Now in order to get the same effect players need to move more and give some effort to kill as easily.

It's so players will earn the possibility of being overpowered and efficiant, not so they won't have fun or because they are too strong.

Balancing is something that isn't easy to deal with, buffs are nerfs are part of it and the players need to deal with it.

I think I didn't explain myself right, but I'm in pressure of time and need to go. If you got any question, just quote me and I will answer more clearly.

[_Vortus_]

30 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah, I try to for the most part... but at what extent is it enough? at what extent has it become too much? At what point does everything feel just like everything else...? 

They shouldn't nerf warframes for "balance/diversity" ... that's the reason they make new warframes/missions/content to begin with.  Plus there isn't much difference between enforcing *specific* kinds of "diversity" through changes, from just enforcing a specific type of playstyle.  (The reason I bring up diversity, is because if one warframe seems to break the power curve, then everyone usually uses the same thing.... similar to chroma. But the chroma changes still haven't changed the current "meta"  and people still oneshot the dolons... also nerfing Ember's WoF range, encouraged people to come up with cheesier memes.So the original problems have't really been "fixed" by these changes)

So yeah, i'm kinda trying to think of a middle/common ground for everyone.

It's only to much if a player is to restricted in play style and thinking.   Heh Ember is a good example.   People lost their S#&$ over Embers changes.   Some still are.    In their anger their vision is clouding that it was a buff, not a nerf.   To bad they cannot see it.    Ember's range is unchanged.   It shrinks if left on, but if you toggle it every 6ish seconds, its exactly the same as it was before.   Or leave it on, and the range decreases while the damage increases.      Chroma can recast now.... huge improvement.   The changes are more often than not, good ones.   Those that are not will likely get looked at again.   Ash is in a better place now even though it took a while.   Players that are not flexible break.  

[Maka.Bones]

16 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

Coming from a developer point of view, I think some nerfs are justified, including Ember (try me).

No, i'm with you on this. Just that ember's rework seems incomplete, and they only gave her one positive to offset two negatives. 

I appreciate your comments, and I honestly don't disagree with you, or their decision... Just how they went about doing it. 

 

1) Chroma still oneshots eidolons

2) Ember still wipes low lvl missions, with very little effort--the changes affected endgame content performance, more than low lvl mission performance

Their stated problems weren't resolved... yet they still removed potential from those warframes. That leads me to believe that they're approaching the issue from the wrong direction. That they've *been* approaching these upcoming issues from the wrong direction, for a long time now. So instead of continuing down that path as a primary solution to their problems, maybe they should try something different instead? 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[W3zeer]

tbh combos are hardly the problem. Ppl complain about individuals who are able to clear all the enemies before the rest of the team can even take a shot at them. And that is their right in a supposed coop-game. I know, many ppl don't want to actually play the game anymore but are satisfied to look at the end of mission screen as soon as possible, but there are still old-school players like me out there who get their fun from actually doing something, instead of just picking stuff up. So nerfs are definetly a neccessary way of balancing players satisfaction, if it's too easy to remove your 3 teammates from participating, your game is in trouble. What you described is not the same though. Synergies from team effort are not in that league I was talking about. And they have not been targeted that much. And rightfully so. For that to happen you actually have to play as a team, which is kind of the goal of the game. Sure it's staring to drift in the same category when 2 ppl can shut down the other 2. But as those synergies don't tend to happen that much in public matches, so I don't see that as much of a problem as the solo-heroes. Imagine what they would have done to Trinity by now, if they did not like synergies ;)

[Maka.Bones]

5 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

tbh combos are hardly the problem. Ppl complain about individuals who are able to clear all the enemies before the rest of the team can even take a shot at them. And that is their right in a supposed coop-game. I know, many ppl don't want to actually play the game anymore but are satisfied to look at the end of mission screen as soon as possible, but there are still old-school players like me out there who get their fun from actually doing something, instead of just picking stuff up. So nerfs are definetly a neccessary way of balancing players satisfaction, if it's too easy to remove your 3 teammates from participating, your game is in trouble. What you described is not the same though. Synergies from team effort are not in that league I was talking about. And they have not been targeted that much. And rightfully so. For that to happen you actually have to play as a team, which is kind of the goal of the game. Sure it's staring to drift in the same category when 2 ppl can shut down the other 2. But as those synergies don't tend to happen that much in public matches, so I don't see that as much of a problem as the solo-heroes. Imagine what they would have done to Trinity by now, if they did not like synergies ;)

Dude, I agree with you... and that's why i'm going to ask: have you read the entire post? lol

I've actually put a lot of effort into making it easy to read (despite it being long) so pls read it lol. It'll be worth it, I promise ;)

But as far as your argument about synergies.... Mag's magnetize used to hold prism in the bubble, and they nerfed that.... SO yeah.... synergies are still susceptible to nerfs. Even though it's less of a concern. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[Maka.Bones]

42 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

In their anger their vision is clouding that it was a buff, not a nerf.  

*boop*  

It was a nerf man (that post explains why... it's mostly pictures & comparisons/ratios). Is she still playable though? yeah... and ember still has no issues clearing lowbie content with zero effort.  But I mean, I'd rather see ember have a different kit altogether. I always hated that WoF /accelerant was her *primary* ability, because the other ones felt redundant to use--instead of weapons. Still kinda feels that way though. 

42 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Chroma can recast now.... huge improvement.   The changes are more often than not, good ones.   Those that are not will likely get looked at again.   Ash is in a better place now even though it took a while.   Players that are not flexible break.  

Yeah chroma still oneshots eidolons too lol. That's kinda my point though... Those changes seem unnecessary, if they're not even going to achieve their original objective--and only succeeds in screwing with a player's build/use of the frame. So why then?... What's the nerf for, if it doesn't even achieve the original goal? Maybe instead of simply nerfing, other alternatives could also be considered?

 

And who TF ever thought ash was nerfed? xD when did anyone think that? lol that change directly buffed ash. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)KresTias]

Point is forcing u to rethink how to use ur equipment.

[(XBOX)Khaibit44]

32 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

And who TF ever thought ash was nerfed? xD when did anyone think that? lol that change directly buffed ash. 

Think he was referring to when Bladestorm went from a click AoE cast that immediately targeted everything in its radius, to how it is now where you have to mark enemies. The more recent changes to Ash were a buff;  I assume this is why he said he's in a better place now than he was since that other Bladestorm change (which was quite a while ago).

[W3zeer]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb Maka.Bones:

Dude, I agree with you... and that's why i'm going to ask: have you read the entire post? lol

I've actually put a lot of effort into making it easy to read (despite it being long) so pls read it lol. It'll be worth it, I promise ;)

But as far as your argument about synergies.... Mag's magnetize used to hold prism in the bubble, and they nerfed that.... SO yeah.... synergies are still susceptible to nerfs. Even though it's less of a concern. 

Yes I did read it and what I took from it was that you seem to be worried about certain strong playstyles being targeted by the developers. But I simply disagree with the notion that we have to "hide our playstyle". Some frames will always be better at some things than others. Frost is has been the master of defense for a very long time now, f.e. It seems ppl think that DE is targeting everything that is strong and effective, but that's not what I saw in their rebalancings. I'm not white knight at all, I've posted my fair share of critizism, but their attempt of balancing is not part of what I can critique. They don't attempt to kill the players fun with that, they are trying to make sure we have a variety of options. It's up to debate if that always works, but that's what they are trying to do. The nerfs were well deserved, they were not just highly efficient ways of playing through mastery of the game, they were easy no-risk-high-reward machanisms that were far superior to everything someone who actually put a lot of effort in his stuff could hope to achieve without them.

Your new gamemodes seemed not to be too serious suggestions ;). I'd love to have the Clem-Mode though ;). Besides that, I don't think we should have too many gamemodes, it would take away to much development time from the problems that actually need to be fixed.