Mirage's ultimate.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

   A long time ago the ultimate was frowned on frowned on and reworked to allow challenge in PvE the same way Ash's ultimate was. After a long time the ultimate now, even after the rework for the prime, can use a improvement. The orb can use a rework or an argument to convert it to a range restricted blind, just like Trinity's 4th ability got capped at a power range %. By giving the 4th ability the rework or augment to enhance it to a former version of it's self then it would make it interesting. Currently the "Disco ball of death" has been used by the Shadow Stalker more effectively.

[RealPandemonium]

It does a fair amount of damage over a wide area and the blind is still gravy.  What's not to like?

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

17 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

It does a fair amount of damage over a wide area and the blind is still gravy.  What's not to like?

Would be cool if lit areas amplify the damage and maybe even made shadowy areas more lit and causes light effect of eclipse to be more active. And after it explodes it could cause a temporary blind effect. Or allow us to control where it goes.

The orb doesn’t get used that much as her other abilities. And the few times that it does is when going against weaker enemies while we need to slow down on the killing(fissures). 

[DeMonkey]

Curious how you refer to it as an ''Ultimate'' in your title, but a ''4th ability'' in your post. Make up your mind 

I'd really dislike it if it were made even remotely similar to it's original self, blinds shouldn't go through walls.

One thing that I think could be kinda funky however is if it had a threat level higher than Warframes and Objectives. Throw it out and watch enemies shoot it as they get lasered, lending damage and CC whilst it's out instead of pushing people to simply pop it immediately after cast at higher levels.

As for an augment, I'd do it similar to Zephyrs 4th, simply have Mirage throw more balls out in a pattern and at a higher speed so they bounce all over the place.

[Terrahero]

It is a pretty poor ability in my opinion. It's damage is very low, the cast time is aprox. one lunar cycle, and the orb moves so slowly i have to wait for it to catch up. On top of that it is probably the most mechanically tied down ability with a energy cost to cast, an energy drain to maintain, and still has a limited duration. I think it's also has its performance tied into the flip-flopping Eclipse.

 

A good start would be to ditch the energy drain since it already is limited by Duration and make the cast time significantly faster. Mechnically it could do with some more interesting cross-interaction with the rest of her kitt. Honestly if i had my way i'd swap her Prism (4) and her Hall of Mirrors (1). Make her 1 a toggle for a fairly low energy-drain that can be fairly easily maintained during normal gameplay with enough energy to spare on casting other abilities, so you don't have to recast two self-buffs twice a minute, which is just boring gameplay. Rebalance her Prism for a role as a first ability, plenty of frames have very powerful nr1 abilities.

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Would be cool if lit areas amplify the damage and maybe even made shadowy areas more lit and causes light effect of eclipse to be more active. And after it explodes it could cause a temporary blind effect. Or allow us to control where it goes.

The orb doesn’t get used that much as her other abilities. And the few times that it does is when going against weaker enemies while we need to slow down on the killing(fissures). 

The prism actually gains up to 100% bonus damage when Mirage is standing in light, independent of Eclipse's buff (but strengthens at the same time in light.)  The ability also causes a blind effect upon explosion!  What?  You can also control its trajectory on launch.  At least look at the wiki before making feedback threads.

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

About the only thing it needs would be an augment that allowed Mirage to flip the buffs from her 3 when it's cast, gaining damage output in darkness and damage resistance in light. A touch fiddly and niche, but tying it to the prism detonation seems reasonable without breaking the game.

[(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood]

3 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

About the only thing it needs would be an augment that allowed Mirage to flip the buffs from her 3 when it's cast, gaining damage output in darkness and damage resistance in light. A touch fiddly and niche, but tying it to the prism detonation seems reasonable without breaking the game.

A better option is a quick cast for it to be a damage dealing form as it is and holding in the ability to charge it would revert it to a sphere that would deliver Radial Blind through a radius as it travels. Maybe this can be the augment for it. With the current mechanics we have the ring to show us how much the charge is complete.

[DeliciousDoob69]

Mirage Prime was overlooked because of the holidays when it was released so I totally understand. However i Hope Mirage gets another look over when DE releases the new lighting system in warframe. I would say that a few things need to be addressed with her.

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by deliciousdoobmaster69

[Sloan441]

8 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

It does a fair amount of damage over a wide area and the blind is still gravy.  What's not to like?

Well, the casting time. 

Aside from that, it's functional. Not really seeing a problem here. 

8 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

The orb doesn’t get used that much as her other abilities. 

I don't use it that much, but Mirage has little difficulty mowing down hordes of enemies to begin with. She's a gun platform that amplifies the damage (in several ways) of said gun. It has its uses, but mostly for the control or to clear a flank while you deal with something else. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

9 hours ago, (PS4)chris1pat8twins said:

Would be cool if lit areas amplify the damage and maybe even made shadowy areas more lit and causes light effect of eclipse to be more active. And after it explodes it could cause a temporary blind effect. Or allow us to control where it goes.

The orb doesn’t get used that much as her other abilities. And the few times that it does is when going against weaker enemies while we need to slow down on the killing(fissures). 

This.  Also would like it if there was a removal of the energy drain while it was active.  Either that or lower the cost of the ability.  it's an rng influenced blind ball that doesn't offer much outside some occasional CC.  it really shouldn't hemmorage your energy. and a faster default casting time would be nice.  

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

13 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The prism actually gains up to 100% bonus damage when Mirage is standing in light, independent of Eclipse's buff (but strengthens at the same time in light.)  The ability also causes a blind effect upon explosion!  What?  You can also control its trajectory on launch.  At least look at the wiki before making feedback threads.

 

First off I look at every warframe in the wiki to learn about the secrets the game never tells. Second, I’ve used the forth ability many times and the enemies NEVER got blinded. And third, I’m talking about making the forth ability controllable as in you COULD MOVE IT AROUND AFTER THE LAUNCH. So how about you read and think before you reply to someone’s comment. 

[TKDancer]

18 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

It does a fair amount of damage over a wide area and the blind is still gravy.  What's not to like?

dmg doesnt scale, incredibly slow animation, after enough levels it becomes a slower version of radial blind

[----Fenrir----]

Easily one of the worst 4th abilities in the game. As a damage ability it's a combination of long casting, very low damage, and RNG (ball goes where it wants). Completely useless. And as CC it's way more expensive to cast and also takes MUCH longer to cast compared to Excals "2". The time it actually takes to detonate the ball and blind enemies makes it borderline useless.

I would much rather have Excals "Radial Blind" as ultimate for Mirage than the crappy ball she is stuck with atm. It's THAT BAD!

[CuteFoxyFox]

I agree, in my opinion it doesn't fit the idea DE started with her second ability.

When your first skill is turned on something should happen. Like maybe every clone throws a small version of the disco ball. Idk just my sugestion :P

[RealPandemonium]

55 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

dmg doesnt scale, incredibly slow animation, after enough levels it becomes a slower version of radial blind

 

39 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Easily one of the worst 4th abilities in the game. As a damage ability it's a combination of long casting, very low damage, and RNG (ball goes where it wants). Completely useless. And as CC it's way more expensive to cast and also takes MUCH longer to cast compared to Excals "2". The time it actually takes to detonate the ball and blind enemies makes it borderline useless.

I would much rather have Excals "Radial Blind" as ultimate for Mirage than the crappy ball she is stuck with atm. It's THAT BAD!

Damage isn't bad (1000-2000 Radiation DPS in a 30m radius by default,) press4towin damage doesn't "scale" for the most part, Excal can't blind enemies from behind cover, the trajectory follows predictable collision physics which can be used to your advantage, and cast delay can be mitigated with cast speed mods or just by having some situational awareness (use it safely and/or preemptively.)

I guess if Prism is too hard for you to use there is always a more mindless alternative in this game, for better or worse.  

[TKDancer]

12 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

 

Damage isn't bad (1000-2000 Radiation DPS in a 30m radius by default,) press4towin damage doesn't "scale" for the most part, Excal can't blind enemies from behind cover, the trajectory follows predictable collision physics which can be used to your advantage, and cast delay can be mitigated with cast speed mods or just by having some situational awareness (use it safely and/or preemptively.)

I guess if Prism is too hard for you to use there is always a more mindless alternative in this game, for better or worse.  

that 2000 becomes 10 because armor is a thing

 

mirages blind is also limited by LoS so it also cant blind enemies behind cover, but radial has the gimmick of hitting enemies who got out of sight within a short duration

 

"predictable collision" nice joke

 

radial blind doesnt need cast speed mods

 

theres a difference between "hard to use" and "it just aint that good" my dude, besides a premade team with 4 CPs mirage doesnt have a way to deal with armor in a large scale, and theres no denying as a blind its inferior to radial blind

[RealPandemonium]

45 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

that 2000 becomes 10 because armor is a thing

 

mirages blind is also limited by LoS so it also cant blind enemies behind cover, but radial has the gimmick of hitting enemies who got out of sight within a short duration

 

"predictable collision" nice joke

 

radial blind doesnt need cast speed mods

 

theres a difference between "hard to use" and "it just aint that good" my dude, besides a premade team with 4 CPs mirage doesnt have a way to deal with armor in a large scale, and theres no denying as a blind its inferior to radial blind

2000 will become 10, maybe at level XXX against Ferrite Heavy Grineer.  Exaggerating much?  

You can cast Prism while you are behind cover, or into a room that you don't have LoS into.  RB's blind is applied in a single instant; I have not observed this secondary behavior that you describe here.

The collision is predictable, based upon the angle at which the prism strikes the surface.  That's probably too much effort for some players, though.

Go ahead and bring Excal to be the blind-*@##$ in your missions if you want; this thread isn't about that.  

Against Alloy, you will go far even with just one CP.  Ferrite will reduce damage the most, while damage is somewhat reduced against Corpus and heavily reduced against most Infested depending on Auras.  Either way, putting Prism out can reduce TTK on a wide swathe of mobs even if it doesn't kill them outright, and the ensuing blind can cover you while also boosting melee damage.

 

IMO, you should just come out and say that you want 1-button map-killing powers that make missions as streamlined as possible with no gameplay consideration.  It's quite disingenuous to enter a design discussion for a video game when your motive is to remove the "game" part of the equation as much as you can.  

[TKDancer]

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

2000 will become 10, maybe at level XXX against Ferrite Heavy Grineer.  Exaggerating much?  

You can cast Prism while you are behind cover, or into a room that you don't have LoS into.  RB's blind is applied in a single instant; I have not observed this secondary behavior that you describe here.

The collision is predictable, based upon the angle at which the prism strikes the surface.  That's probably too much effort for some players, though.

Go ahead and bring Excal to be the blind-*@##$ in your missions if you want; this thread isn't about that.  

Against Alloy, you will go far even with just one CP.  Ferrite will reduce damage the most, while damage is somewhat reduced against Corpus and heavily reduced against most Infested depending on Auras.  Either way, putting Prism out can reduce TTK on a wide swathe of mobs even if it doesn't kill them outright, and the ensuing blind can cover you while also boosting melee damage.

 

IMO, you should just come out and say that you want 1-button map-killing powers that make missions as streamlined as possible with no gameplay consideration.  It's quite disingenuous to enter a design discussion for a video game when your motive is to remove the "game" part of the equation as much as you can.  

not really, specially now that we have a new game mode with high level enemies, go into the simulacrum yourself and see how well prism fares vs level 100 enemies, with our new game mode we're gonna see their like a lot more, so discussing abilities that fail to keep up is important

 

and radial blinds speed makes the need for cover during cast non existent , because its actually fast and doesnt leave us exposed, close but no potato eh?

 

the collision for the 1st bounce? sure, sort of, after that its in lotus' hands, unless you actually expect people to perfectly predict every single bounce(plus, ya know, the thing can bounce to the sky, also the fact that its use falls hard in very open areas), also, cool "im so good at this game and everyone else sucks" tone btw, real nice

 

i mean, this thread is about prism, talking about other abilities that do its job is bound to happen, specially now that radial blind no longer has a cooldown

 

yeah it does radiation so its gonna do less bad vs alloy armor, but its still not gonna go through the armor or remove it, i literally just tested it vs level 100 bombards and heavy gunners, bombards took 62 per tick, gunners took 11(told ya), thats basically nullifying the abilities dmg by just having armor, and as i said, we're gonna see these guys a LOT more often now with sanctuary onslaught(inb4 "OPTIONAL CONTENT!!!!")

 

IMO you should just recognize that Prism, like many other abilities in this game suffers a lot due to enemy armor scaling, being reduced to a very slow blind ability which makes it a clunkier version of radial blind, and i didnt, not once, say this should be a skill that can wipe entire maps in a split second, i am arguing that as it is, prism is lacking severely, i dont think it NEEDS to simply do scaling dmg, but it needs something, be it blind from the lasers instead of just the explosion or some other gimmick/debuff from the lasers(also faster animation)

 

also you gotta choose dude, is 2000 radiation dmg per tick good for killing or is small dmg that shouldnt become big AoE dmg??

Edited April 21, 2018 by TKDancer

[JalakBali]

Mirage ult is fine. The only thing missing is an augment that makes any enemy within its radius starts dancing. Also it plays disco music.

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

10 hours ago, JalakBali said:

Mirage ult is fine. The only thing missing is an augment that makes any enemy within its radius starts dancing. Also it plays disco music.

Sounds more like an Octavia augment. But it would be funny to watch. 

[RealPandemonium]

12 hours ago, TKDancer said:

snip

Only one faction has armor, and that by the time the armor becomes so strong that damage from powers is no longer on-par, enemy levels have gotten close to or passed level XXX.  By Damage 2.0's design, level XXX is not the balance point for power damage, so you can't hold powers to that standard.  When compared against other damage abilities, Prism's output is in-line with those of other frames, especially considering how strong and safe Mirage is in general.

Radiation damage deals 75% bonus damage to Alloy armor and also ignores 75% of Alloy armor, so that mileage is the best you're gonna get outside of Ash as far as powers go.

Just because a power doesn't kill everything on screen by itself doesn't mean that it's not lowering TTK of everything on screen.  Supplemental damage is still useful.  

Prism's blind can be chained like Excal's can.  After the first prism in a chain, the subsequent casts are safe because the previous one already blinded in a wide radius.  If our goal is to preemptively permaCC everything in the room, Prism's blind is just a little extra work.  Both RB and Prism are both bound by line of sight, so they can still miss enemies and get you one-shot in level XXX content, where you could argue that they are both equally "useless."

I haven't done the second Onslaught mode yet, but if we're talking about Sortie level enemies, not much changes besides Prism stops being a delete button and turns into a blind button (then your melee deletes them.)

It's not that I think that I'm great and everyone else sucks. Some people want to lower the bar for everyone which makes the game less fun over time.  I'm not particularly good at this game; I just know how it works.  I'm being honest, here, and I would appreciate if certain other forum posters would also come out and say what they really mean.  

Edited April 21, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[TKDancer]

9 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Only one faction has armor, and that by the time the armor becomes so strong that damage from powers is no longer on-par, enemy levels have gotten close to or passed level XXX.  By Damage 2.0's design, level XXX is not the balance point for power damage, so you can't hold powers to that standard.  When compared against other damage abilities, Prism's output is in-line with those of other frames, especially considering how strong and safe Mirage is in general.

Radiation damage deals 75% bonus damage to Alloy armor and also ignores 75% of Alloy armor, so that mileage is the best you're gonna get outside of Ash as far as powers go.

Just because a power doesn't kill everything on screen by itself doesn't mean that it's not lowering TTK of everything on screen.  Supplemental damage is still useful.  

Prism's blind can be chained like Excal's can.  After the first prism in a chain, the subsequent casts are safe because the previous one already blinded in a wide radius.  If our goal is to preemptively permaCC everything in the room, Prism's blind is just a little extra work.  Both RB and Prism are both bound by line of sight, so they can still miss enemies and get you one-shot in level XXX content, where you could argue that they are both equally "useless."

I haven't done the second Onslaught mode yet, but if we're talking about Sortie level enemies, not much changes besides Prism stops being a delete button and turns into a blind button (then your melee deletes them.)

It's not that I think that I'm great and everyone else sucks. Some people want to lower the bar for everyone which makes the game less fun over time.  I'm not particularly good at this game; I just know how it works.  I'm being honest, here, and I would appreciate if certain other forum posters would also come out and say what they really mean.  

actually bursas exist also those mutalists moas and juggs, but yes, grineer are the main armor users, they are also one of the most common enemies and corrupted grineer have armor also

 

in case you havent played sanctuary onslaught, by zone 3 u are seeing level 100+ enemies, so yes, they should balance the game around this content, specially since unlike other endless modes onslaught isnt even designed for hours long scaling with most people being forced to leave after a dozen zones or less, and while normal mode starts lower, it can also reach those levels pretty quickly

 

it... doesnt ignore armor, literally where did you get this information? that is blatantly false information, do u actually think i would be doing 60ish dmg per tick down from 2000 if it ignored 75% of armor???? it gets a dmg bonus to alloy, then gets reduced to hell because its still armor

 

10-70 dmg on enemies with thousands upon thosands of HP(not even eHP, just HP) isnt reducing TTK

 

im not trying to lower the bar, im arguing that this ability is lacking and needs some change, and you're here defending it for the sake of being a contrarian, and maybe dont assume what "people really mean"

 

 

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, TKDancer said:

actually bursas exist also those mutalists moas and juggs, but yes, grineer are the main armor users, they are also one of the most common enemies and corrupted grineer have armor also

 

in case you havent played sanctuary onslaught, by zone 3 u are seeing level 100+ enemies, so yes, they should balance the game around this content, specially since unlike other endless modes onslaught isnt even designed for hours long scaling with most people being forced to leave after a dozen zones or less, and while normal mode starts lower, it can also reach those levels pretty quickly

 

it... doesnt ignore armor, literally where did you get this information? that is blatantly false information, do u actually think i would be doing 60ish dmg per tick down from 2000 if it ignored 75% of armor???? it gets a dmg bonus to alloy, then gets reduced to hell because its still armor

 

10-70 dmg on enemies with thousands upon thosands of HP(not even eHP, just HP) isnt reducing TTK

 

im not trying to lower the bar, im arguing that this ability is lacking and needs some change, and you're here defending it for the sake of being a contrarian, and maybe dont assume what "people really mean"

 

 

Forgot about Bursas, but they have double vulnerability to radiation damage anyway and have base armor equivalent to Elite Lancers.

I look forward to seeing how things go in the harder Onslaught.  No personal data on this for me yet.

Damage types that have a percentage bonus against armor also ignore the same percentage of that armor type.  Wiki description in spoiler below:

 

Armored

Against armored hit points, the formula is:

Damage modifier considering health modifier, armor modifier and armor.

Where additionally to the previous definitions, AM is the damage type modifier against the armor type and AR is the target's armor after all reductions from debuffs (including Corrosive Projection, Corrosive procs and Terrify).

It's important to note that type modifiers against armor work in two ways here: they mitigate a percentage of the target's armor, and increase the damage dealt in the same way as a type modifier against the hitpoints would do. Practically speaking, this means that  Corrosive damage is only reduced by 25% of a target's whole Ferrite Armor and the base damage is increased by +75%. Thus having the damage type with the highest appropriate bonus is far more important against armored than unarmored targets. The formula causes a massive difference between a medium and a large reduction: 75% reduction (¼ original armor) is essentially twice more than 50% reduction (½ original armor).

Because of the twofold reduction, a simple (1 + HM) × (1 + AM) calculation yields incorrect results. The following damage type pairings deviate from that simplified calculation:

• Against ferrite-armored cloned flesh,
  •  Corrosive always surpasses  Viral.
  •  Puncture surpasses  Viral above 120 armor.
  •  Toxin always surpasses  Heat; but never surpasses  Viral.
• Against alloy-armored cloned flesh,
  •  Radiation always surpasses  Viral.
  •  Puncture surpasses  Heat above 342 armor.
  •  Cold always surpasses  Heat.
  • However, neither  Puncture nor  Cold ever surpass  Viral.

This just shows that one can't easily compare damage type modifiers against an armor class to those against hitpoint classes, and those against armor are, at similar values, considerably more effective especially when fighting high level enemies (since armor scales with level).

I was surprised that the pages for these damage types do not mention the armor-ignore property.  I will fix this.

Ticks occur at 4/sec so that 10 - 70 is actually 40 - 280.  But in all seriousness,  as I stated above, even just your personal CP will allow Prism to do surprisingly well on Alloy armor targets in Sortie 3, assuming there are no Sortie conditions or Eximus auras around to cut the damage further.  Let's also not ignore the other enemy types which take significantly more damage from Radiation than Ferrite or even higher-level Alloy Grineer do.

Well, if it were up to me, one-button nukes would be out of the game because they dumb it down too much and turn it into "how fast can I not-play this supposed game."  I generally oppose buffs to things that aren't especially bad, and I don't consider Prism to be one of these things just because its cast animation is too long to be used thoughtlessly

Edited April 22, 2018 by RealPandemonium
Spoiler formatting ate the second half of my post

[TKDancer]

3 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I was surprised that the pages for these damage types do not mention the armor-ignore property.  I will fix this.

then explain the math that transformed 2000 dmg ticks into 60ish if i was ignoring 75% of armor, cause i have literally never heard of this and im sure thats just a mistake in the wiki

 

cant recall if i tested vs level 100 or 110, but enjoy doing the math to see if its actually true tho