Possible Fix for Spin 2 Win...

[Volkeris]

1 hour ago, TzXtetriC said:

Or let people do what they want? Who is anyone to force ppl to play as you want?

I know right? How dare people think they can control how others should play? Just imagine someone joining your public match and suddenly forcing you to play a different way because of their own play style! Oh wait...

[Baterial]

@TenStorms

[(PSN)TheRealTommo]

I wouldn't know I don't personally play that way.

[Himenoinu]

42 minutes ago, Volkeris said:

I know right? How dare people think they can control how others should play? Just imagine someone joining your public match and suddenly forcing you to play a different way because of their own play style! Oh wait..

There ain't no way out of it. Spin-2-win mechanic can only be discouraged by changing the enemies and the mission mechanics - for the most part (granted, the hit-through-wall should be removed anyway, as it's not very consistent to how melee weapons tend to operate). You can't expect people to not use their beloved meme macro, just as one can't expect DE to remove it - precisely because of the former.

You can at all time just leave the group if a player's style is rubbing you the wrong way. Or you can recruit. Or you can... come to the forums - like I did in the past - and complain about this and that warframe or weapon mechanic ruining your fun - when both of these are just the reaction to other, bigger, meaner issues.

[fluffysnowcap]

6 hours ago, Himenoinu said:

There ain't no way out of it. Spin-2-win mechanic can only be discouraged by changing the enemies and the mission mechanics - for the most part (granted, the hit-through-wall should be removed anyway, as it's not very consistent to how melee weapons tend to operate). You can't expect people to not use their beloved meme macro, just as one can't expect DE to remove it - precisely because of the former.

You can at all time just leave the group if a player's style is rubbing you the wrong way. Or you can recruit. Or you can... come to the forums - like I did in the past - and complain about this and that warframe or weapon mechanic ruining your fun - when both of these are just the reaction to other, bigger, meaner issues.

Or or or, we could add a second combo for stance hits vs a single target that each one landed in succession give a +25% doe all damage types, CC, CD, SC after mods and main combo counter, to discourage spinning tops.

This idea will only work if it does not apply to spin, air, wall and quick attack. As it was a ment in the sense of encouraging "proper" use of melee.

Edited May 2, 2018 by fluffysnowcap
Spelling

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

Ooooor we could do nothing about it because there's nothing wrong with it, and only reason why people don't like it is based off of opinion, and it's effecient, yet people think it's cheesy because it's a lazy way of getting kills when it really shouldn't matter because it's getting kills none-the-less. 

Let the players play how they want, my lord. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

Personally i hate this mod`s very existence. It turns the use of Melee weapon into an ugly and play style comparable to PressKeyToWin as many players who use it often use Macros to Slide attack repeatedly.

By me i would just have it removed but i know its not going to happen. [DE] could at least add a 2~3 second cooldown to the mod so it only triggers the Crit bonus once every few seconds or have it require the player to Kill X enemies with their Melee weapons first to charge it up.

[Himenoinu]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Mythical Warden said:

(1) Ooooor we could do nothing about it (2) because there's nothing wrong with it, and (3) only reason why people don't like it is based off of opinion, (4) and it's effecient, yet people think it's cheesy because it's a lazy way of getting kills (5) when it really shouldn't matter because it's getting kills none-the-less. 

(6) Let the players play how they want, my lord. 

1. We can't do anything, except either leaving the group or getting even more numb and careless towards the game.
2. There's plenty wrong with it, both from a game-play point of view as well as from a physics one.
3. Nope, it's because of many other legitimate reasons.
4. Yes to all - efficiency, cheesiness, laziness
5. It should matter at all times if there's more than 1 player in the team and the other 3 don't enjoy spectating the mission (don't bullnyerk in the "free rewards" because they ain't free, nor are they rewards)
6. It goes both ways. Out of a group of 4, if you're the only one using and enjoying the fidget spinner - you, my lord, are the one not letting other players play how they want 😉 Could go solo though, to spin and cheese your way through all this exciting, fun content of... pointlessly killing zounds of various enemies that - for the most part - don't want to have to deal with the tennos.

You can spin the matter on its head as much as you like, but in the end, both sides are right, yet none of them give a flying fart about the other players' desires or playstyles. To the point where I'm kinda wondering why are all of you playing multiplayer games when you definitely go out of your way to act as if it's a single player experience...

[fluffysnowcap]

10 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Personally i hate this mod`s very existence. It turns the use of Melee weapon into an ugly and play style comparable to PressKeyToWin as many players who use it often use Macros to Slide attack repeatedly.

By me i would just have it removed but i know its not going to happen. [DE] could at least add a 2~3 second cooldown to the mod so it only triggers the Crit bonus once every few seconds or have it require the player to Kill X enemies with their Melee weapons first to charge it up.

So CO then? Will that need to go?

[TenStorms]

2 hours ago, TzXtetriC said:

Or let people do what they want? Who is anyone to force ppl to play as you want?

I think you all dont get the Point in the right direction.

Its not ME, telling you how you should play YOUR game (go play without mods and with a steering wheel, as long as you have fun with it...)

I complain about, its THE GAME, that dictates MY way to play, in order to be efficient.

Problem: I want the new Vandals, so i have to play Elite Onslaught.

Would-like-Solution: Today i feel like i want to play Ember with a Glaive...BECAUSE I WANT TO PLAY THE WAY I WANT...

You should get the Point why this will not work...

Edited May 2, 2018 by TenStorms

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

7 minutes ago, TenStorms said:

I think you all dont get the Point in the right direction.

Its not ME, telling you how you should play YOUR game (go play without mods and with a steering wheel, as long as you have fun with it...)

I complain about, its THE GAME, that dictates MY way to play, in order to be efficient.

Problem: I want the new Vandals, so i have to play Elite Onslaught.

Would-like-Solution: Today i feel like i want to play Ember with a Glaive...BECAUSE I WANT TO PLAY THE WAY I WANT...

You should get the Point why this will not work...

That's just Warframe in general!! If you want to play with the Skana(one of the first melees you get) and you get pissed off because every other melee weapon in the game is better than it, that is just how it is and it isn't going to change. This isn't the game for you if you don't like having to grind for potentially OP weapons and don't understand that some weapons are just better than others.

The game tells no one what mods they must use as well. My War can be really good without Maiming strike and it is.

Edited May 2, 2018 by (XB1)BigLithuanian

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

So CO then? Will that need to go?

No because the damage scaling from Condition Overload for Status weapons isnt as steep as that of Crit weapons.

Also, Condition Overload is a counter for Blood Rush.

[LSG501]

While spin to win is annoying, especially on low levels, the mod and the weapons are not the issue, it's the 'macros' that allow for the high rate of spinning that are the main cause of the issue. 

I've got several weapons with maiming strike on and use it to compensate for the low starting crit chance to help make a weapon viable but I don't go spamming the spin to win on every attack because one it would hurt my fingers/hand/wrist but I also don't use macros.  Nerf maiming strike would make several of my weapons unviable to use, same with it affecting the combo counter. 

In essence it's the way people are (ab)using it, not the mods or weapon. 

I do agree about the games poor rng/grind (khora/vandals are stupidly low drop chance) forcing players to utilise unsavoury approaches to 'speed things up' instead of being able to just play the game in a way that is fun for all. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by LSG501

[(XBOX)weedyodaa]

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

• We can't do anything, except either leaving the group or getting even more numb and careless towards the game.

That's just silly, to leave because someone's earning multiple kills with a weapon. If they don't like it, that's their own issue that they got to get frustrated over someone ear

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

•  There's plenty wrong with it, both from a game-play point of view as well as from a physics one.

No, not at all. There is nothing wrong it it, it was made to function how the mod was made, yet you insist to bring a change to the mod, although it's merely doing as it functions. And they could just find somewhere else to get kills.

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

•  Nope, it's because of many other legitimate reasons.

Give a few, based off of legitimate reasons.

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

•  Yes to all - efficiency, cheesiness, laziness

Yet you have the audacity to say how people should play their game? Let the players play how they want, we don't need people whining about them just crouching and using their weapon. And there's plenty of other things that are just as cheesy, why pick on this one?

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

•  It should matter at all times if there's more than 1 player in the team and the other 3 don't enjoy spectating the mission (don't bullnyerk in the "free rewards" because they ain't free, nor are they rewards)

This can easily be solved by you either playing with friends, running solo, or recruiting other people in recruit chat. I, personally, don't mind other people earning more kills, it get's annoying, sure, but I just move on. I don't see anything wrong with it. 

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

1.  It goes both ways. Out of a group of 4, if you're the only one using and enjoying the fidget spinner - you, my lord, are the one not letting other players play how they want 😉 Could go solo though, to spin and cheese your way through all this exciting, fun content of... pointlessly killing zounds of various enemies that - for the most part - don't want to have to deal with the tennos.

You practically make no point in this. You just said you can go solo or with a different group, so I don't really see the point in this. When I run my atterax + meme strike build, I go solo so I don't get whined at for "Using a cheese build," but oh well.

35 minutes ago, Himenoinu said:

 You can spin the matter on its head as much as you like, but in the end, both sides are right, yet none of them give a flying fart about the other players' desires or playstyles. To the point where I'm kinda wondering why are all of you playing multiplayer games when you definitely go out of your way to act as if it's a single player experience...

In the end, players just wanna play their own way. Sure, may not be the best of ways, but their playstyle shouldn't effect another to the point of where they get mad about it. It seems more toxicity, rather than it being an actual issue that people don't get their fair share of kills. Plus, as I've mentioned before, there's always an option of choosing a different part of the map on the tileset to get kills at, letting them run their own show if the player desires. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by (XB1)Mythical Warden

[-_Highlander_-]

3 hours ago, TenStorms said:

...after Each Spin Attack, reset the Combo Multiplicator.

Still effective in medium lvl Games, but no more Perma-Elite-Onslaught-Spinning.

 Congratz you have made an Nerf Topic 

While you have all the rights in the world to complain about spinners

I have no right to complain about Equinox and the Spam poo ability

So strange how this community works 

Anyhow .. if you would nerf this spin 2 win .. you should ask for Nerfs for all the 4th abiltiy winners

-- Because  we all know whats comming next after this --

[ShinTechG]

I'm all for this and other nerfs to balance this game out but,

If that has to happen, this Efficiency thing definitely needs to be reworked or just removed in Onslaught at that point.

 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I use slide on everything... dont use Maiming or whips. This would effectively kill melee

Edited May 2, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Gizogin]

The issue with spin2win and other cheese tactics, and the reason why people keep making these threads, is twofold. One, it’s so powerful that it trivializes all the game’s content. No other melee style can compete with a whip using Primed Reach and Maiming Strike or an equivalent Riven effect. Just look at the Atterax: with nothing but Maiming Strike, Organ Shatter, and Blood Rush, it gets more than 20x its base damage after just five hits. With Primed Reach, it can hit everything in a 20 meter radius. Nothing can compete with that, so why would you bother with anything else if that’s an option? It’s not like it takes any skill or a specialized squad composition or anything.

Two, these cheese tactics prevent your squadmates from actually playing the game. Remember Resonating Quake, when a Banshee on a Defense mission would just sit on the objective and kill all enemies in their spawn rooms, basically making you a spectator in your own game? To someone on the receiving end, it’s like playing with a Limbo who keeps Stasis up the whole mission; you can’t play the game properly anymore. Sure, you can still complete the mission that way, but you might as well just give the controller to someone else and let them play for you.

What I would like to see is for Maiming Strike and equivalent Rivens to work like all other critical chance mods, or for them to not stack with Blood Rush if they have to be additive. Failing that (or in addition to it), make it so that Reach adds a flat amount of range to a melee weapon. This would make this mod worth using on weapons besides just polearms and whips, like daggers and swords.

[Himenoinu]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Mythical Warden said:

1. No, not at all. There is nothing wrong it it, it was made to function how the mod was made, yet you insist to bring a change to the mod, although it's merely doing as it functions. And they could just find somewhere else to get kills.

2. Give a few, based off of legitimate reasons.

3. Yet you have the audacity to say how people should play their game? Let the players play how they want, we don't need people whining about them just crouching and using their weapon. And there's plenty of other things that are just as cheesy, why pick on this one?

4. This can easily be solved by you either playing with friends, running solo, or recruiting other people in recruit chat. I, personally, don't mind other people earning more kills, it get's annoying, sure, but I just move on. I don't see anything wrong with it. 

5. You practically make no point in this. You just said you can go solo or with a different group, so I don't really see the point in this. When I run my atterax + meme strike build, I go solo so I don't get whined at for "Using a cheese build," but oh well.

In the end, players just wanna play their own way. Sure, may not be the best of ways, but their playstyle shouldn't effect another to the point of where they get mad about it. It seems more toxicity, rather than it being an actual issue that people don't get their fair share of kills. Plus, as I've mentioned before, there's always an option of choosing a different part of the map on the tileset to get kills at, letting them run their own show if the player desires. 

Starting off agreeing with your conclusion. You seem to acknowledge that the fidget spinner playstyle is potentially annoying. Sad part is that both sides of this silly conflict can't help but spew more venom at each other. Everything else there though. Split up to the point of sacrificing affinity for the purpose of feeling like playing solo in a group... Makes very little sense. Also, it's not about fair share of kills, but rather the feeling of being part of the mission's props - not much different than a door frame.

Now, at 5) you said people shouldn't tell someone how to play his/her game, but then we have the spinner coming in and basically imposing that play style upon the team. Just like a Banshee does in NM Onslaught and a lot of other builds and setups 🙂 It's a selfish world out here and it tends to happen in a game that depends on having a big community (both financially and from the game's economy point of view). Expanding just a bit upon it, they could tell you (not talking about you, but easier to word it) to go spin in a different room... and you would... face it, just ignore them 😄

4) If you would've read through the topic, you would've seen I actually suggested exactly that - although, again, you could play with other spinner friends (again, not you!)... even if probably only one would actually spin with a purpose 😄

3) Some people tell other people how to play the game, buuuut... Spinners, Banshees and other builds that use gimmick builds pretty much enforce their playstyle upon others. An RQ Banshee will give a spinner nothing to do in the right environment, thus imposing the RQ playstyle upon the Meme strike and whatever else other people bring to the mission.

2). First reason is physics. Whips and any other weapons should not be able to hit through walls. 2nd reason is the automated task - guessing some people might try to train their dogs to push the button that activates the spinning combo 😄 Third, is the above mentioned potential grievance. And let's say fourth is that most of the time you don't use a Banshee or a Meme build because you enjoy the game or love the action, but because you're bored stiff of the same repetitive task and you just wanna be done as fast as possible.

1). I am not supporting changes or the removal of the mod. It's not the mod that's at fault, neither are the players using it. Both - as I've said before - are a symptom to an almost metastasized illness. It functions as intended, maybe. It may not combine as intended with other mods, but both of those are irrelevant. Why? Because of 2)

 

I leave the team if I'm sitting like a drunk duck through more than 2 zone - didn't join to afk or to count the 29 seconds or whatever the time before I have to move to prevent the game for literally tagging me as afk. I leave the team also if I have random statues joining in, putting up their Glass Wall in the conduit spawn point and afk for the duration. It's not the most exciting game - the way it is right now. It is not the most rewarding. But I like the animations and the mechanics and it's why I play it - not for the free resources, not to watch a fidget spin all over the place.

We are ultimately a community and it's not only DE's responsibility to see this game thrive. Continuously being at each other's throats over petty issues can potentially distract the devs from improving the game the way all would enjoy and benefit from and focus instead on pleasing the grumpy kids of the block, nerfing and butchering the game to the point where no one will be happy at all.

[cptSmollett]

As I've suggested in a different thread: No to resetting combo counter, but rather ms to be calculated the last (if left additive) and decrease the combo counter with each use of it by fixed amount

[Magneu]

Either make it work like every other crit bonus with Blood Rush (multiply, not flat addition), or add a brief cooldown, 2-3 seconds or so. You can still keep a combo counter up to keep doing damage, but you don't destroy your team's ears with swishswishswishswish constantly. That way, people who use it to proc Berserker on low crit weapons can still use it, but it also reduces the prevalence of spammers/macro-ers. It would turn from a massive, constant damage boost to a way to deal a large amount of burst DPS, even with quick-melee.

For the record, I've sold my only copy of the mod. I hit Zone 8 in elite solo without real difficulty with a variety of frames/weapons. Claiming that Maiming Strike is required to hit a full rotation is a pile of hot garbage, and a complete strawman argument. There are plenty of strategies that are just as powerful, but none quite as brain-dead.

[fluffysnowcap]

4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

No because the damage scaling from Condition Overload for Status weapons isnt as steep as that of Crit weapons.

Also, Condition Overload is a counter for Blood Rush.

Blood Rush & Condition Overload work well together, hell look at some zaw builds using the PLAGUE KEEWAR head, its easy to build them for 6 damage types over 100% status and with BR, CO PP, Primed RE.

stacking Co is so broken its not even funny, (16.78x)

 

 

no I did not make a mistake.

 

Spoiler

Build

Zaw

PLAGUE KEEWAR + PLAGUE BOKWIN + EKWANA II JAI

CRITICAL CHANCE 10.0%

STATUS 36.0%

 

Arcane

Exodia Force

 

Mods
primed pressure point | primed reach | Condition Overload | blood rush

Vicious Frost | Virulent Scourge | Volcanic Edge | Voltaic Strike

 

[Gizogin]

2 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Blood Rush & Condition Overload work well together, hell look at some zaw builds using the PLAGUE KEEWAR head, its easy to build them for 6 damage types over 100% status and with BR, CO PP, Primed RE.

stacking Co is so broken its not even funny, (16.78x)

 

 

no I did not make a mistake.

Stacking Blood Rush and Maiming Strike is dramatically better, though. Let's look at a hypothetical weapon with 3.0x crit multiplier and 25% crit chance, and then add just three mods: Blood Rush, Maiming Strike, and Organ Shatter. At a 1.5x combo multiplier, just from your average critical hit bonus, you're getting 14.3x base damage, which is actually 21.6x when you account for the combo multiplier. Add in True Steel, and it increases to 24.2x base damage. Plus, that's on every single hit, regardless of how many status conditions you've put on that enemy. With a status/CO build, by the time you've managed to put 6 status conditions on a single enemy, that enemy is probably already dead. That's to get your 1.6^6=16.78x multiplier; most of the time, it's going to be less.

Oh, by the way, those numbers for CC and CD come from the Atterax. We've only used four of its eight mod slots so far, too; throw in Primed Reach and Primed Pressure Point, and you're hitting every enemy within about 20 meters for an average of 39.9x base slide attack damage on just a 1.5x combo multiplier, which takes five hits to reach. You're already hitting guaranteed red crits on every attack, and it only gets more ridiculous from there. At 2.0x combo multiplier, you're hitting for 69.8x base slide attack damage (that's including Primed Pressure Point; it's 42.3x without it). 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, (XB1)Mythical Warden said:

And what's so bad with spin2win? 

Not much, it's just that a great deal of the community doesn't like being (too?) efficient when it comes to grinding.

[Fire2box]

10 hours ago, TzXtetriC said:

Or let people do what they want? Who is anyone to force ppl to play as you want?

Exactly. that means either bring stuff to maiming strike level or bring maiming strike to their levels. But right now maiming strike is almost as near an requirement as primed continuity is. 

The longer DE waits to address it, the worse the community will react.