Ember Re-Rework

[JackFraust]

Ember's World on Fire rework is way too painful. The energy cost increased, the range was halved; the damage increase is ok, but is irrelevant. This rework, I can say, destroyed her.

I had my Ember built for both power and crowd control, depending on what missions I ran, without having to change between builds. This rework completely annihilated any shred of survival-bility she had. I didn't need Ember's WoF to have more base damage or more range. I had a build for her that WoF could kill group Lv100 enemies in less than 10 seconds without having to shoot/melee them and I rarely even went into a bleedout state and being a Damage-type Warframe (which are my favorite types btw), I was almost always had the most damage dealt. Now, I can't even get over 10% damage dealt and I fall into a bleedout state in half a blink. I tried running with the build I had before the rework and found Firequake to literally be completely useless (what's the point of a "100% chance knockdown augment" if you have to be standing 2 feet from an enemy for it to work). I didn't even have range mods on my Ember; she was purely Power/Efficiency/Firequake with a little extra Duration and 100% Range. Now I feel like she's a glorified target with more bark than bite.

In the state Ember is in right now, players have to choose either a high damage, no range, no cc build or adequate range, no damage, Firequake cc build. I get Ember was a rookie deterrent. but trading her crowd control ability (her only real means of staying alive period) for more damage was as far from the answer one could possibly get. Instead of doing that, scaling her ability down when playing weaker missions would have been the proper way to go, IMO.

I know there are other frames I can play that are basically the same as what Ember was, but even with Ember's best ability in such a horrid state, she is still my top favorite frame and nothing will change that. You can very well say that it was because of Ember that I started playing Warframe, when I saw her Warframe Profile. I deeply hope Ember will make a comeback and soon.

[Druid40]

I and many others have had no problem clearing maps for extended periods with Ember. Ember now requires a tiny bit more awareness during gameplay now. It is not a bad thing.

[(PSN)gloriaperpetua]

Ember lost her survivability by recently rework. I started Warframe to use Ember. But sad to say, my Ember and Ember Prime are in closet now.

[MercurialAspect]

The old Ember had issues. The new Ember has different issues. Reverting to what she used to be isn't a good idea, but keeping her as she is now is also not really fun for those of us that like to play her. A big part of why the nerf hurts is because they left other, far more effective "kill everything before anyone sees it" frames alone. Saryn, Equinox, Volt, Banshee, etc. are all still more than capable of completely clearing a defense map while everyone else sits around with their metaphorical thumb up their... well, you get the idea.

While I personally love AFK farming stuff, I can understand why they don't want it in the game, and if they want to redesign Ember to not have "passively nuke the universe" as her ultimate, I'm okay with that. I just want her left capable of participating in end-game content without feeling like I'm intentionally gimping my team by taking a frame that's woefully underpowered.

Personally, I'd love to see her made into a high-risk high-reward caster frame: Keep her ranges short (room-clearing instead of map clearing), her damage and ability use high, and tie her survival to short-duration CC. 

[Djego27]

Le 08/05/2018 à 10:53, MercurialAspect a dit :

The old Ember had issues. The new Ember has different issues. Reverting to what she used to be isn't a good idea, but keeping her as she is now is also not really fun for those of us that like to play her. A big part of why the nerf hurts is because they left other, far more effective "kill everything before anyone sees it" frames alone. Saryn, Equinox, Volt, Banshee, etc. are all still more than capable of completely clearing a defense map while everyone else sits around with their metaphorical thumb up their... well, you get the idea.

While I personally love AFK farming stuff, I can understand why they don't want it in the game, and if they want to redesign Ember to not have "passively nuke the universe" as her ultimate, I'm okay with that. I just want her left capable of participating in end-game content without feeling like I'm intentionally gimping my team by taking a frame that's woefully underpowered.

Personally, I'd love to see her made into a high-risk high-reward caster frame: Keep her ranges short (room-clearing instead of map clearing), her damage and ability use high, and tie her survival to short-duration CC. 

I disagree, seeing less people that play the frame bad(by doing like 5% of the damage they could with the frame) around is definitive a big plus. Ember never had issues to steam roll endgame content solo(sortis did not introduce L100, you could face roll this years ago with weapons that did 1/4 of the current damage at the very best in a bit longer solo survivals or defences). This is just the opinion of people that again do not understand that Embers damage comes from accelerant and weapons modded around that instead of WoF and therefore complain here on the forums about WoF damage.

Ember is already what you would love to see her be, that is the beauty of Ember basically. You just need to put a "1" in front of the "50" what you assume is a enemy level your frame is good at, set the game to solo and practice. The only thing that is not true is that Ember is high reward, however that is mostly blamed on DE designing every frame and weapon around being incredible boring, blunt and uninteresting because older and more complex mechanics are often not understood by the community.

Le 07/05/2018 à 05:55, blkdrag a dit :

Ember's World on Fire rework is way too painful. The energy cost increased, the range was halved; the damage increase is ok, but is irrelevant. This rework, I can say, destroyed her.

I had my Ember built for both power and crowd control, depending on what missions I ran, without having to change between builds. This rework completely annihilated any shred of survival-bility she had. I didn't need Ember's WoF to have more base damage or more range. I had a build for her that WoF could kill group Lv100 enemies in less than 10 seconds without having to shoot/melee them and I rarely even went into a bleedout state and being a Damage-type Warframe (which are my favorite types btw), I was almost always had the most damage dealt. Now, I can't even get over 10% damage dealt and I fall into a bleedout state in half a blink. I tried running with the build I had before the rework and found Firequake to literally be completely useless (what's the point of a "100% chance knockdown augment" if you have to be standing 2 feet from an enemy for it to work). I didn't even have range mods on my Ember; she was purely Power/Efficiency/Firequake with a little extra Duration and 100% Range. Now I feel like she's a glorified target with more bark than bite.

In the state Ember is in right now, players have to choose either a high damage, no range, no cc build or adequate range, no damage, Firequake cc build. I get Ember was a rookie deterrent. but trading her crowd control ability (her only real means of staying alive period) for more damage was as far from the answer one could possibly get. Instead of doing that, scaling her ability down when playing weaker missions would have been the proper way to go, IMO.

I know there are other frames I can play that are basically the same as what Ember was, but even with Ember's best ability in such a horrid state, she is still my top favorite frame and nothing will change that. You can very well say that it was because of Ember that I started playing Warframe, when I saw her Warframe Profile. I deeply hope Ember will make a comeback and soon.

Let me tell you there was a time back in the days even accelerant did not re stun before the duration did run out and WoF did not prioritize close targets without a fire dot where I started to play the frame you actually had to get good at fireball and later move into a status weapon. Guess what the frame was considered unplayable back then, while still out damaging 3 other players combined 1h into survival.

Please do not make claims about damage when you only did it with WoF, this would be just as stupid as complaining about crush damage in the days when polarise killed corpus at any given enemy level. Let me tell you you did no damage at all, given that even with 200% power strength WOF did only hit for 800 damage + 2800 as dot. You talk about 3600 damage per unit, where WoF can hit about 3 unit per second. Compare that to a vhek, that assuming you build it around accelerant and have the debuff up on the target, could do 100.000 fire damage(before cats and arcane buffs) in a single shot, can shoot more then once per second and can hit multiple targets via punch trough.

You are also mistaken that Firequake became bad with the changes, it was awful before that as well. A Ember with Firequake in your group in a sorti was literally a 50% damage nerf to everybody capable of doing head shots and this people did honestly believe they are useful in that builds...

Ember since accelerant is not a new player friendly frame, because it is fairly heavy on the gear grind and has more complex mechanics when it comes to damage, given that it scales with fire and you only looking for modifiers to that fire damage. Same comes to weapons, where a lot weapon that the community think are not so good are actually very very good.

Ember was never gone, it is always there and it will always perform excellent in the right hands while doing close to nothing in the hands of others. If you can get over your WoF habit, you might see that there is actually a real damage frame under the "P4TW" that has no damage issues in scaling content and actually received quite a lot of over buffing with DEs latest weapon changes. What you see here is the stupidity of the Mara Detron changes that make even dedicated anti armor weapons like my boar prime pointless in a L100 sorti extra armor interception by just melting through stuff with amplified raw dps:

https://i.imgur.com/Y5DrbaA.jpg

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Djego27

[Arcira]

3 hours ago, Djego27 said:

I disagree, seeing less people that play the frame bad(by doing like 5% of the damage they could with the frame) around is definitive a big plus. Ember never had issues to steam roll endgame content solo(sortis did not introduce L100, you could face roll this years ago with weapons that did 1/4 of the current damage at the very best in a bit longer solo survivals or defences). This is just the opinion of people that again do not understand that Embers damage comes from accelerant and weapons modded around that instead of WoF and therefore complain here on the forums about WoF damage.

Ember is already what you would love to see her be, that is the beauty of Ember basically. You just need to put a "1" in front of the "50" what you assume is a enemy level your frame is good at, set the game to solo and practice. The only thing that is not true is that Ember is high reward, however that is mostly blamed on DE designing every frame and weapon around being incredible boring, blunt and uninteresting because older and more complex mechanics are often not understood by the community.

I think people are quite aware accelerant increases fire damage of weapons but noone would ever mod his weapon for fire damage. Corrosive, radiation or viral are far to powerful in comparison. Also other warframes can use and buff weapons too. However offering survivability is worth so much more because weapons are heavily overpowered anyway. A lv 100 heavy gunner is oneshot by my lanka.

You don´t play a caster type warframe in order to shoot stuff you want to actually cast spells! And reducing the range of a former aoe spell to something my melee weapons laugth about shouldn´t be considered an option. There are alot of viable possibilities (for example line of sight) but no it has to be something that feels clunky and anoying. After the release of plains of eidolon the range of WoF should have been increased rather than decreased.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Arcira

[sixmille]

I use Ember in sortie 3, kuva siphon and long kuva survivals with little to no issues. Don't use 4. Don't build around 4. The ability is okay but it's just a bandaid if you're not really good. 2 and 3 are the most powerful abilities, especially 2. It's crazy what you can do with this one.

Use an atomos, mod it for fire and viral and you get something really powerful to play with. Solve your survivability issues (if you have any) the way you want, there are 150 ways to do so really.

Edited May 11, 2018 by sixmille

[Djego27]

Le 10/05/2018 à 23:44, Arcira a dit :

I think people are quite aware accelerant increases fire damage of weapons but noone would ever mod his weapon for fire damage. Corrosive, radiation or viral are far to powerful in comparison. Also other warframes can use and buff weapons too. However offering survivability is worth so much more because weapons are heavily overpowered anyway. A lv 100 heavy gunner is oneshot by my lanka. 

You don´t play a caster type warframe in order to shoot stuff you want to actually cast spells! And reducing the range of a former aoe spell to something my melee weapons laugth about shouldn´t be considered an option. There are alot of viable possibilities (for example line of sight) but no it has to be something that feels clunky and anoying. After the release of plains of eidolon the range of WoF should have been increased rather than decreased. 

This is exactly the point where people throw the actual damage right out of the window, because they massively(by a mile at least) underestimate what you can do with scaled up fire damage. Fire scaling does no not mean fire modded only(outside of some builds with the vaykor hek or rakta cernos where that easily cuts through sortis on it's own via 300.000k dps). You can combine fire with corrosive what is incredible effective against armor on status weapons(especially status shotguns like my Boar Prime where Ember becomes just as armor ignore as Ash or Trinity), given that you only need the corrosive against the armor, once this is reduced enught or removed fire scaling actually comes out on top simply because fire gets bonus damage against cloned flesh and 90%+ of your damage comes from fire. You will not even notice the difference between a L100 and L150 corrupted bombard, because there is little, if any on Ember.

There are also weapons in the game that can be modded viral, radiation and fire, like the Mara Detron what actually outdoes all kinds of meta weapons on Ember, given how strong this feature of radiation base damage weapons is.

I actually do play Ember to shoot stuff, because this is something the frame does incredible well while also providing very solid CC(for solo defence etc.). Also the liability of WoF is actually a lot less noticeable if you use accelerant a lot(both for stuns and damage bonuses) as well as status showers for weapons what solves most of the issues people have with staying alive at higher levels without even reducing your dps, because this is another unknown but awesome feature of fire scaling, status modding comes at close to no damage loss.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

tbh i think she needs a real rework and not just this "nerf wof" rework which accomplished basically nothing anyway.  she still nuke speed runs low end content which I thought is what they were going to try and address.

her 1 needs some kind of buffs.  as all it is is damage.  and the DoT of the new balls really isn't important when enemies don't stand in it.  Maybe if it had a high chance to proc the on fire status it would be at least okay for minor cc on one enemy.  The charge mechanic to make lil napalm balls could be buffed so when enemies walk through it they will take lingering damage even when away from the fire and the DoT it's doing has a chance to proc on fire status every tick.

Accelarent is really good.  But it needs to be more consistent and last longer stun wise.  Maybe let duration effect stun duration.  and normalize stun time across all enemy types.  it's silly that major targets like ancients are barely stunned from this.  To my knowledge there isn't any other stun related mechanic like this.  usually the only difference on stun abilities is vs bosses.

Fire blast knock down should be a bit longer.  The augment is useless because enemies don't walk into the fire ring.  I personally would like the ring to be able to "burn" away bullets.  So you don't take as many shots when standing in the ring.  Or just ditch the ring entirely and have it be a mass stun that weakens armor and the augment does something else.

If world on fire is to be kept then it needs to prioritize targets within embers range stat so she can survive better.  it should have a high chance to proc on fire status if not 100% chance. (either through modding or not.)  But to be honest i'd rather she gets a new 4 entirely.  Something like slamming the ground causes an AOE eruption of fire.  setting enemies on fire and into a panic and they temp take more damage.

[Arcira]

On 2018-05-12 at 11:01 AM, Djego27 said:

This is exactly the point where people throw the actual damage right out of the window, because they massively(by a mile at least) underestimate what you can do with scaled up fire damage. Fire scaling does no not mean fire modded only(outside of some builds with the vaykor hek or rakta cernos where that easily cuts through sortis on it's own via 300.000k dps). You can combine fire with corrosive what is incredible effective against armor on status weapons(especially status shotguns like my Boar Prime where Ember becomes just as armor ignore as Ash or Trinity), given that you only need the corrosive against the armor, once this is reduced enught or removed fire scaling actually comes out on top simply because fire gets bonus damage against cloned flesh and 90%+ of your damage comes from fire. You will not even notice the difference between a L100 and L150 corrupted bombard, because there is little, if any on Ember.

There are also weapons in the game that can be modded viral, radiation and fire, like the Mara Detron what actually outdoes all kinds of meta weapons on Ember, given how strong this feature of radiation base damage weapons is.

I actually do play Ember to shoot stuff, because this is something the frame does incredible well while also providing very solid CC(for solo defence etc.). Also the liability of WoF is actually a lot less noticeable if you use accelerant a lot(both for stuns and damage bonuses) as well as status showers for weapons what solves most of the issues people have with staying alive at higher levels without even reducing your dps, because this is another unknown but awesome feature of fire scaling, status modding comes at close to no damage loss.

I did a lot of tests with Heat damage + Accelerant in various combinations and never saw any signivicant dps increases. However it doesn´t really matter anyway. As I said weapons are very powerful. You can kill a lvl 150 corrupted bombard in seconds with armor shred (without the need of any kind of buff). The important thing isn´t your dps output but your surviveability. Warframe like Mesa, Rhino, Chroma, Nidus or Inarus can kill enemies in high levels as fast as ember can but are much more tanky.

Accelerant has a maximum stun duration of  5 second (not modable and about 1 second casttime) against some enemies. It´s literally the worst hard cc ability in the whole game and not an actual reason to use her over any other warframe. 

Firequake wasn´t good because it did rather than sustaining cc without a lot of input. You can actually focus on playing the game rather than spamming your abilitiy every 3 to 4 seconds. Also status on weapons (which btw isn´t an argument for ember either because it can be used by anyone) isn´t a good source of surviveability when enemies spawn everywhere around you. Say hello random acient grab out of nowhere. Aoe is far more reliable. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Arcira

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

HAHAHA EMBER IS BUFFED! For 90% of the content.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2018-05-07 at 11:55 AM, blkdrag said:

I had a build for her that WoF could kill group Lv100 enemies in less than 10 seconds without having to shoot/melee them and I rarely even went into a bleedout state and being a Damage-type Warframe

And that's exactly why she was changed. If one element of the game lets players get huge damage with zero effort (literally just pressing 4), it's going to get looked at. Warframe is an action game, not an idle game.

[FrostFeathers]

im not super dissatisfed with current ember myself, but i think it could be better.

on one side WOF is still plenty usable to clean low/mid level mission which is 80% of the content people will run (starchart / quest / relics) so that neat if thats the kind of gameplay(i myself am kinda tired of it). but aside from that what does ember actually bring currently ? sure you can use accelerant to boost your dmg to absurd numbers that can kill a group of lvl 100+ under 3-4 second. but most time thats gonna be thanks to how the weapon is modded and even without accelerant you can kill those type of ennemy and even then how often do you need that much dmg outside of sorties.

it also worth mentioning that yea you get crazy dmg and a short stun from accelerant but you also die in 1-2 hit from said lvl100 ennemies. personaly i think might main problem with ember (even though i love playing her every chance i get) is that while you CAN get mega dmg, you rarely NEED to and you also have no way to increase your defense/resistance/hp or overall survivability.

p.s im sorry if this post makes little to no sense.

good day.

Edited May 14, 2018 by FrostFeathers

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Mine is currently set on energy tanking... her stats ain't gamebreaking but it is more then enough for that kinda playstyle... i mean both her health and her energy pool are gigantic. WoF serves as the auto-pilot Cc frames like Saryn and Volt can only dream of in the same category. And her damage, be it by aoe or buff is awesome too.

Not quite the fan of fire blast if it ain't to interrupt QT's stagger and accelerants buff could be duration based rather then a dbuff but ya know, i definitly wouldn't grief after WoF. That change was needet.

[JackFraust]

On 2018-05-13 at 1:31 PM, SenorClipClop said:

And that's exactly why she was changed. If one element of the game lets players get huge damage with zero effort (literally just pressing 4), it's going to get looked at. Warframe is an action game, not an idle game.

no, she was changed so higher leveled players who took Ember into lower level missions wouldn't deter rookie players (hence, less range and greater energy drain) while making it so she can kill higher leveled enemies faster (hence, more damage). that was what DE had personally said while in the devstream featuring Ember's rework.

[RealPandemonium]

On 2018-05-13 at 1:13 PM, Arcira said:

I did a lot of tests with Heat damage + Accelerant in various combinations and never saw any signivicant dps increases. However it doesn´t really matter anyway. As I said weapons are very powerful. You can kill a lvl 150 corrupted bombard in seconds with armor shred (without the need of any kind of buff). The important thing isn´t your dps output but your surviveability. Warframe like Mesa, Rhino, Chroma, Nidus or Inarus can kill enemies in high levels as fast as ember can but are much more tanky.

Accelerant has a maximum stun duration of  5 second (not modable and about 1 second casttime) against some enemies. It´s literally the worst hard cc ability in the whole game and not an actual reason to use her over any other warframe. 

Firequake wasn´t good because it did rather than sustaining cc without a lot of input. You can actually focus on playing the game rather than spamming your abilitiy every 3 to 4 seconds. Also status on weapons (which btw isn´t an argument for ember either because it can be used by anyone) isn´t a good source of surviveability when enemies spawn everywhere around you. Say hello random acient grab out of nowhere. Aoe is far more reliable. 

If you want the game to be easy, there are frames that literally turn off gameplay for you so that you can watch netflix on the second monitor or whatever.  Ember doesn't have to be one of them.  Accelerant is also excellent for locking down map tiles if you want to go full $&*&*#(%&; I used to use her with max range in LoR since Rhinos would mess up timing on their stomps or Vauban would miss a spot here and there, and I could also carry batteries due to large energy pool.

Edited May 15, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[JackFraust]

I had actually found a build (not long after I started this post) that is theoretically a little stronger than what my previous build was (before the rework) and at the moment, I am much more comfortable with this build than what I had changed it into after the rework. I use "Steel Charge" for the Aura mod, "Handspring" for the Exilus Mod, Max Primed Continuity, Maxed Energy Conversion, Maxed Stretch, Maxed Augur Reach, Maxed Primed Vigor, Maxed Streamline, Maxed Primed Flow and Maxed Firequake. This build gives her 155% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 175% Range and 100% Strength with 125 Armor, 638 Energy, 520 Health and 650 Shield.

Because of the now innate Strength boost, which gives her +100% damage (when my build before the rework only gave her +95%), I didn't have to build into strength, but still gave her the best Strength mod without any damaging drawbacks. Also, because of the innate Range nerf, I built her more towards Range, canceling out the nerf and instead giving her +25% more range (which is actually 20% less range compared to what I had before the rework). Next, I added more Duration, Efficiency and Energy to help keep WoF alive as long as possible. Lastly, P.Vigor, Handspring and Firequake for survivability.

When making my Ember's build, I first built her for strength then efficiency (same as what she had before the rework), but instead, I did a 180 and built her for range then strength. I was somewhat blinded by her new strength boost and in turn, caused me to get killed more than I was killing (which infuriated me). I can live with this Ember, but I still expect some kind of fix for her, because compared to other Damage-frames, she is barely even on the radar.

[Arcira]

17 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

If you want the game to be easy, there are frames that literally turn off gameplay for you so that you can watch netflix on the second monitor or whatever.  Ember doesn't have to be one of them.  Accelerant is also excellent for locking down map tiles if you want to go full $&*&*#(%&; I used to use her with max range in LoR since Rhinos would mess up timing on their stomps or Vauban would miss a spot here and there, and I could also carry batteries due to large energy pool.

Why would I want a game to be to easy? What´s the pupose of playing it then? As stated spamming abilities every 3 seconds is not the kind of interaction I prefer in a game. The way I use Accelerant is to cast it in longer intervalls for the damage bonus not to lock down enemies which in my opinion shouldn´t be a thing anyway. There should be an internal cooldown that determines the rate at which you can cc enemies or something. An exception would be abilities that  focuse on dps.

I feel like some people confuse interactive gameplay with spamming all 4 spells + weapons + melee attacks + mobiblity at the same time. But surprise the are other possibilities like for example aura which offer a more strategical decision making like ressource management.

17 hours ago, blkdrag said:

I had actually found a build (not long after I started this post) that is theoretically a little stronger than what my previous build was (before the rework) and at the moment, I am much more comfortable with this build than what I had changed it into after the rework. I use "Steel Charge" for the Aura mod, "Handspring" for the Exilus Mod, Max Primed Continuity, Maxed Energy Conversion, Maxed Stretch, Maxed Augur Reach, Maxed Primed Vigor, Maxed Streamline, Maxed Primed Flow and Maxed Firequake. This build gives her 155% Duration, 130% Efficiency, 175% Range and 100% Strength with 125 Armor, 638 Energy, 520 Health and 650 Shield.

Because of the now innate Strength boost, which gives her +100% damage (when my build before the rework only gave her +95%), I didn't have to build into strength, but still gave her the best Strength mod without any damaging drawbacks. Also, because of the innate Range nerf, I built her more towards Range, canceling out the nerf and instead giving her +25% more range (which is actually 20% less range compared to what I had before the rework). Next, I added more Duration, Efficiency and Energy to help keep WoF alive as long as possible. Lastly, P.Vigor, Handspring and Firequake for survivability.

When making my Ember's build, I first built her for strength then efficiency (same as what she had before the rework), but instead, I did a 180 and built her for range then strength. I was somewhat blinded by her new strength boost and in turn, caused me to get killed more than I was killing (which infuriated me). I can live with this Ember, but I still expect some kind of fix for her, because compared to other Damage-frames, she is barely even on the radar.

You dont get a power strength boost of 100%. Your WoF damage is increased by 100% that´s quite different. For pre rework Ember with 200% power stength your dps with Accelerant would be: (400 * 2) * 5 = 4,000. New Ember with 100% power strength and overheat damage does: (400 *2) * 2.5 = 2,000. Overheat damage is not a compensation for power strength because it dosn´t scale your other abilities. You need about 145% power strength in order to deal the same amount of damage with WoF.

New WoF radius with 155% range is (15 * 1.55) / 2 = 11.625m compared to your old build with 130% range (asuming from your +25% statement) was 15 * 1.30 = 19.5. Thats about 40% less. In order to compensate for the nerf you need to increase your range to 260%

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Arcira

[RealPandemonium]

59 minutes ago, Arcira said:

Why would I want a game to be to easy? What´s the pupose of playing it then? As stated spamming abilities every 3 seconds is not the kind of interaction I prefer in a game. The way I use Accelerant is to cast it in longer intervalls for the damage bonus not to lock down enemies which in my opinion shouldn´t be a thing anyway. There should be an internal cooldown that determines the rate at which you can cc enemies or something. An exception would be abilities that  focuse on dps.

I feel like some people confuse interactive gameplay with spamming all 4 spells + weapons + melee attacks + mobiblity at the same time. But surprise the are other possibilities like for example aura which offer a more strategical decision making like ressource management.

It's more interactive than "lolrhino the whole map is stunned for 10+ second intervals," "lolloki always invis, all enemies holding sticks," "loloctavia," "lolnova," "lolequinox," etc.  If you want the game to me more interactive fundamentally (which I have been waiting for forever,) we need big changes to the damage system and mod system, and to enemy spawns and AI, as well as changes to frame design.  At least Ember players can pretend to be good at the game, since her imperfect offensive and defensive advantages can be mixed with good game knowledge to result in an effective frame that pays back the user for their effort and is not a one-button solution (even though Accelerant can be this when it comes down to it, but that's Warframe at its core.)

[JackFraust]

20 hours ago, Arcira said:

You dont get a power strength boost of 100%. Your WoF damage is increased by 100% that´s quite different. For pre rework Ember with 200% power stength your dps with Accelerant would be: (400 * 2) * 5 = 4,000. New Ember with 100% power strength and overheat damage does: (400 *2) * 2.5 = 2,000. Overheat damage is not a compensation for power strength because it dosn´t scale your other abilities. You need about 145% power strength in order to deal the same amount of damage with WoF.

New WoF radius with 155% range is (15 * 1.55) / 2 = 11.625m compared to your old build with 130% range (asuming from your +25% statement) was 15 * 1.30 = 19.5. Thats about 40% less. In order to compensate for the nerf you need to increase your range to 260%

 

firstly, when i said "Because of the now innate Strength boost, which gives her +100% damage", i was only tagging that boost to WoF; i wasn't tagging that boost to anything else, but because i said "Strength boost", i will take some of that blame for the misunderstanding.

my pre-rework build had 195% power strength, which in turn gave WoF +95% more damage. my new build has +150% power strength (after picking up an energy orb). when WoF's reaches full overheat, the total damage boost of WoF reaches to +250% = 100% (base) + 100% (overheat) + 50% (energy conversion). That means my new build's WoF has 55% more damage than what my old build had. your comment "You need about 145% power strength in order to deal the same amount of damage with WoF" is completely irrelevant (i didn't have 245% power strength on my pre-rework build).

secondly, my ember build before the rework had 145% range (from Stretch) and my new build has 175% range (from Augur Reach and Stretch). from simple math;

175% (new) - 50% (nerf) = 125%, then 125% - 145% (old) = -20%, which means that my new build has 20% less range than what it did before the rework. i had no intention to "compensate for the nerf". if i wanted to compensate, i would actually need 195% range to match it with my old build.

btw, when i did your math on my WoF's range, you took the values from my new build's duration and efficiency, not the values of my new build's range and my old build's range.

[Naneel]

Ember is still capable of fighting enemies, but it is alot harder now that her cc (Firequake) has no reach to actually do its job. Also the name of her ultimate is now not really suitable, it's more Isle on Fire than World on Fire 😭. 

But I think a rework could help her alot, since her 1 is mediocre and the ring of her 3 will only burn melee units (mostly infested...).

There is a nice rework idea in the concept section, which I really like. Maybe some of you have ideas how to put it into a working concept.

 

[Arcira]

4 hours ago, blkdrag said:

firstly, when i said "Because of the now innate Strength boost, which gives her +100% damage", i was only tagging that boost to WoF; i wasn't tagging that boost to anything else, but because i said "Strength boost", i will take some of that blame for the misunderstanding.

my pre-rework build had 195% power strength, which in turn gave WoF +95% more damage. my new build has +150% power strength (after picking up an energy orb). when WoF's reaches full overheat, the total damage boost of WoF reaches to +250% = 100% (base) + 100% (overheat) + 50% (energy conversion). That means my new build's WoF has 55% more damage than what my old build had. your comment "You need about 145% power strength in order to deal the same amount of damage with WoF" is completely irrelevant (i didn't have 245% power strength on my pre-rework build).

secondly, my ember build before the rework had 145% range (from Stretch) and my new build has 175% range (from Augur Reach and Stretch). from simple math;

175% (new) - 50% (nerf) = 125%, then 125% - 145% (old) = -20%, which means that my new build has 20% less range than what it did before the rework. i had no intention to "compensate for the nerf". if i wanted to compensate, i would actually need 195% range to match it with my old build.

btw, when i did your math on my WoF's range, you took the values from my new build's duration and efficiency, not the values of my new build's range and my old build's range.

Again the overheat buff is not! a power strength buff you can´t simply add these numbers together 400 base damage with 250% bonus damage would be 400 * 2.5 = 1000 while in fact you are dealing (400 * 2) * 1.5 = 1200. Your pre rework build would deal 400 * 1.95 = 780 which is 35% less damage. Sounds like a nice buff on it´s own though, but doesn´t include her main damage buff tool Accelerant.

The statement about how much power strength you need in order to deal the same amount of overall damage is not irrelevant in fact it´s very important. Otherwise you are not able to compare pre rework with current Ember. Picking one aspect of her kit that was buffed as an argument on it´s own is meaningless.

pre rework with Accelerant: (400 * 1.95) * (2.5 * 1.95) = 3802.2 and Overheat rework with Accelerant: ((400 * 2) * 1.5) * (2.5 * 1.5) = 4500 which reduces the damage difference to 100 - (3802.2 * 100 / 4500) = 15.51 %.

Also your "simple math" for range isn´t correct either because the range is halved not reduced by 50%. The only scenario where -50% would work is when your range is exactly 100% (because 1/2 of 100% = 50%) however 1/2 of 175% is 87.5 not 125%. Here are the actual calculations for your builds:

overheat Rework Range: (15 * 1.75) / 2 = 13.125m and pre Rework Range: 15 * 1.45 = 21.75m which is 21.75 / 13.125 = 1.66 (66 %) more range.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Arcira

[RealPandemonium]

46 minutes ago, Naneel said:

Ember is still capable of fighting enemies, but it is alot harder now that her cc (Firequake) has no reach to actually do its job. Also the name of her ultimate is now not really suitable, it's more Isle on Fire than World on Fire 😭. 

But I think a rework could help her alot, since her 1 is mediocre and the ring of her 3 will only burn melee units (mostly infested...).

There is a nice rework idea in the concept section, which I really like. Maybe some of you have ideas how to put it into a working concept.

 

Firequake has always been of questionable usefulness.  Accelerant has been Ember's go-to CC since its introduction.

The thread that you link actually proposes to remove Accelerant, which will reduce Ember's CC potential greatly.  Also, nice alt account.

[Naneel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb RealPandemonium:

Also, nice alt account.

This is not my account.

[Djego27]

Le 13/05/2018 à 19:13, Arcira a dit :

I did a lot of tests with Heat damage + Accelerant in various combinations and never saw any signivicant dps increases. However it doesn´t really matter anyway. As I said weapons are very powerful. You can kill a lvl 150 corrupted bombard in seconds with armor shred (without the need of any kind of buff). The important thing isn´t your dps output but your surviveability. Warframe like Mesa, Rhino, Chroma, Nidus or Inarus can kill enemies in high levels as fast as ember can but are much more tanky.

Accelerant has a maximum stun duration of  5 second (not modable and about 1 second casttime) against some enemies. It´s literally the worst hard cc ability in the whole game and not an actual reason to use her over any other warframe. 

Firequake wasn´t good because it did rather than sustaining cc without a lot of input. You can actually focus on playing the game rather than spamming your abilitiy every 3 to 4 seconds. Also status on weapons (which btw isn´t an argument for ember either because it can be used by anyone) isn´t a good source of surviveability when enemies spawn everywhere around you. Say hello random acient grab out of nowhere. Aoe is far more reliable. 

While accelerant has it's fair share of bugs, not granting the damage buff(outside of boss like units, what is bugged since the CC resistance changes) is certainly not among them what a simply test against a L150 corrupted eximus heavy gunner(leech) shows:

no accelerant(37 rounds fired):

https://i.imgur.com/EqOI4rD.jpg

with Accelerant(16 rounds fired):

https://i.imgur.com/lpvOTcE.jpg

Weapon used:

https://i.imgur.com/c8bZi6q.jpg

As you can see a crit pellet with 512% base damage on the weapon(ppb + riven + arcane) does 6832 damage head shot damage without accelerant. In the second screen shot with accelerant and 170% power strength + 85% more fire base damage by flash accelerant that number changes to 25267 what equals a effective damage increase of 270% against a non armored unit(what it pretty much is after the first few rounds). Assuming we remove the first 6 rounds what it takes to strip the armor with a boar prime we look at 31 vs 10 rounds spend, what again mirrors this damage increase(give or take 1-2 rounds by inconsistent modifiers like status distribution, bleed procs or crit).

While I agree that Embers power is a lot less pronounced then in say 2014(where status shotguns worked differently and people did 1/4 of her current damage at best) and DE refuses to fix enemy damage scaling for the sake of throwing incredible overblown survivability on certain frames without any damage penalties, it is certainly not a Ember exclusive problem but more so a problem with the game as a hole.

Accelerant is a soft CC, given that it can be overwritten by nearly all enemy animations and does not disable units without a stun animation(drones for example) compared to real hard CC like Bastille or stomp that completely suspends units for the duration. However it is fairly cheap to cast, you cast it anyway for the damage buff and got a quick casting animation, so all things considered it is very effective at high levels in keeping you alive, if you compare it with a frame like saryn that only has the CC on her 4 with a much longer cast animation what on top of Ember plays herself like a charm at high levels.

Fire quake only appeared good to certain people because they did no damage to begin with. It is effectively removing nearly all extra head shot damage from your team and focusing on units that die fairly quick is not really that hard, where people do struggle is when they have issues to kill stuff, what should not realistically happen with Ember at something like a L100 sorti, not even solo. Negotiating the extra CC of status weapons is fairly silly and you can test that incredible easy by just jumping in a void survival solo and stay for over a hour with a status weapon that does disable what it hits and then with weapons that do not. You might see a significant difference long before the 1h mark in staying alive.