Losing Hope - Feedback

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

17 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually I don't agree with your view on this game being a beta, this game is no more a beta than world of warcraft and other similar games which also has regular updates.

If the players are so 'good at breaking things' as you say then DE need to change their testing methodology to take this into consideration.... they have a test server so select some of the design council or partners to be beta testers and see how they 'break' a frame before releasing it.

Also you can't go comparing a bug in the code or the clipping on a warframe to the abilities which are given to warframe and how they're balanced, that's just being ridiculous and you know it. 

Except that you can't play WoW the same way you did 5 years ago. So you made a point against your own here. These types of games constantly change and if one wants to play them, they should go in knowing that things will change. As for money it is enitrely your own choice to spend that money or not. Specially for a PC player since the trade goes wonderfully compaired to PS4. You can't blame the devs over this. 

As for OP, I agree with Archiwng. Archwing needs A LOT of work. I was even thinking that maybe perhaps they could put like an archwing obstacle room. Not in a clan but as a tutorial so at least new players like myself can get used to the abysmal controls a little bit before they are shoved into a mission. Rest of the points I disagree. 

[Teoarrk]

Two things here: vision and feedback.

DE as a company have a vision they wish to fulfil with this project and that vision is subject to change, either from within or without. Some of the things you have listed, such as combining pets with sentinels is never going to be balanced. Changing the pet's abilities from mods into fixed abilities also may clash with what they intend to do with pets in the future, but probably tie into how they value those abilities. If Charm or Cat's Eye didn't take up a mod slot then it would make it easy to just stack on everything. What about the people that only want their pet to attack, or refuse to let their Shade do anything other than cast Ghost? They want to give player's choice, but at a cost.

Feedback is important, don't get me wrong, but some things have remained the way they are despite feedback because the feedback proposals conflict with their vision.

Also since World of Warcraft is being brought up, which is good since I wanted to talk about MMO's anyway, I want you to compare playing that game as it is now to how it was in 2004. Name a build that still plays like it did even 2 years ago. Their vision shifted and very likely on their own merits with some player feedback being involved, but their vision was the driving force for that change. It is the same for DE and Warframe, but unlike the Wow model, Warframe doesn't require a paid subscription. You clearly felt something when playing this game to put money into it, so you like what they're doing, but by that same token, they don't owe you a change for the privilege of your money. 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Teoarrk

[LSG501]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Warframe2052018 said:

Except that you can't play WoW the same way you did 5 years ago. So you made a point against your own here. These types of games constantly change and if one wants to play them, they should go in knowing that things will change. As for money it is enitrely your own choice to spend that money or not. Specially for a PC player since the trade goes wonderfully compaired to PS4. You can't blame the devs over this.  

Actually you just proved MY point... WoW doesn't use the beta tag yet the game is not the same now as it was 5 years ago. 

Yes these games change (hence why I feel beta is wrong) but they don't go changing the entire basis of a type of unit (or warframe in this case) months of years down the line, they're a lot quicker to balance things when 'game breaking' setups are found. 

Whether we choose to put money into the game is irrelevant to the point about money, DE are selling items in this game for real money.  In my view (and many others) that doesn't make the game a beta anymore. 

[bad4youLT]

12 hours ago, Eivy said:PoE:
Explain to me again why the water has to be so friggin annoying on plains but no where else? And also why cant my archwing deal with the water there? Even if you make an item we can farm for that makes us immune to the water issue, that would be great. Past that I generally love plains, I think its a step in the right direction.

 

sentient remains did this to the water , nakak says it

[(PSN)Warframe2052018]

2 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Actually you just proved MY point... WoW doesn't use the beta tag yet the game is not the same now as it was 5 years ago. 

Yes these games change (hence why I feel beta is wrong) but they don't go changing the entire basis of a type of unit (or warframe in this case) months of years down the line, they're a lot quicker to balance things when 'game breaking' setups are found. 

Whether we choose to put money into the game is irrelevant to the point about money, DE are selling items in this game for real money.  In my view (and many others) that doesn't make the game a beta anymore. 

I wasn't saying the game is beta. I was merely stating the fact that as an MMO Warframe changes as much as WoW and you claimming it to be otherwise is deceitful. DE makes money by selling, WoW makes money via subscriptions. They both change consrantly and no you cannot say WoW is the same as it was a few years back because it isn't. Case and point: how a rogue's kit really didn't change for years until there was no other choice but to try and bring roguelike elements to other classes to balance them for PVP.  It is the nature of such games. Take it or leave it. 

[Solid.nl]

On the subject of forma's my gripe with them is me having to reset a frame or weapon to once again not being able to use it properly. So for example you get your frame to 30 you get to use its abilities for a little bit at full strength and then its gone because ... forma...

I always hoped for something like when you forma just the mod slot you assign a polarity to would be locked until you get the xp required to unlock it (same xp as a level 30 frame is fine). That way I can keep using the frame at all its abilities and have some fun with it during all kinds of missions instead of going into the same one over and over again. Not to mention while mod slots are being unlocked you will actually see said frame or weapons get stronger and to me that would generate way more satisfaction.

But hey if they wanted to touch the forma mechanic (which really feels very outdated at this point) it would have happened a long time ago.

 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Wish they would make it so that mastery rank would level up item to that level after putting a forma instead of giving you the mod slots, but still having to level it up to 30.

Granted, the argument could be said that a MR 30 player could litterally put six formas in a row on a weapon without having to relevel it... But would it be such a big deal anways ? Imagine the plat DE would make off the vets that currently are often too lasy to sink formas into weapons because it's alot of work. People would burn their forma stocks in minutes and then would be stuck with a 24 hour build time on successive formas, pushing them to buy new formas.

The last few levels are the longest to level up anyway (you can get to lvl 18 in a couple of minutes in leveling hotspots).... So I feel starting at 25 (current max MR rank) and having to do the last five levels would be fine.

Only negative would be the fact that's alot of gametime that would be shaved off from veteran's daily logon routine (but it would give more time for actual meaningful stuff like doing content you care about).

Or, DE could actually give decent XP for most missions in the starchart, that way people would not have to grind the same tileset/dark sector for three hours and they could level up their gear organically (instead of playing a whole day with a lvl 0 weapon only to have it lvl 6 by the end of the day).

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Eivy]

Yeah I like the idea of having to farm something to skip leveling process thats a fair fix. 

The reason I am so against the releveling, is they keep making all these changes on frames, melee, weapons at times, because they feel killing too many too fast kills the fun, and they say want to focus on fun. Im just stating that re-leveling something multiple times isnt fun. I want another method. I also dont think we should be able to just drop forma in alone 5 times and call it a day. So don't read me that way either.

Alternatively if  they refuse to change that, then maybe the option to change a polarity of an already forma and leveled item (without having to re-level). This way if changes happen, you can use some item  to change the polarity again, something more common to farm, and they can even set a cooldown if they wish so people dont abuse it. I think this option could also allow people to test out different builds more as well. 

Most weapons and frames need to be forma'd two times minimum to make it viable. There are some exceptions and builds, but that seems to be the average, more if the item isnt primed, then you can be looking at 3-5.
If each forma = quicker leveling then Id be ok with that too. Like forma one levels at 110%, forma 2 levels at 120%, forma 3 130%. Theres just no fun or point in the current system *anymore* Onslaught has helped this a little bit, but it's also pretty repetitive.

As far as comparing it to WoW.. when I played they did make minor nerfs/buffs here and there, most of their problems were PvP vs PvE. However, for years they never changed up the classes themselves, the skills were generally the same, or there were multiple trees. When they did, gearing up for it IMO was more fun. The raids were fun, PvP was fun.
Re-leveling an item 2-5 times isn't fun, you generally hope for a fast clearer which ends up being builds they dont like. So I think it's a system they have to take a look at again.

With Rivens in place I truly have no sympathies at all when they face balancing issues, imo that was the silliest thing they could have done.

I do like the conversations though, even for those who disagree. 

 

Edited May 19, 2018 by Eivy

[Ikori_Intaki]

On 2018-05-18 at 7:15 PM, peterc3 said:

Let me step in and say something, here. They are aware of everything people do in this game. A nerf could come to literally everything and anything you use now or will use in the future. This is why the game is called a beta. Everything is subject to change and you play this game with the explicit acknowledgement that this is the case.

They do not have infinite people with infinite time and resources to fix every problem at once. They prioritize. Does it break the game completely? High priority. Is there a damage formula that's off but isn't really hurting anything? Low priority. Does said damage formula being off trivialize a new piece of content? Low priority bug becomes high priority.

Archwing came out in Update 15. That was on 10/24/14. That's going on 3 and a half years ago. To give context to the rest of the game, that is a bit over a year and a half since it hit open beta (aka release, because Warframe is basically a released title at this point). It's not that older than the normal content in the game, yet it's still very much so broken and unsupported, as if the entire concept is still in Alpha (aka the concept is still being built, that it's nowhere near complete). They've had 3 and a half years and have done little to nothing to make  it feel anywhere near complete. That should be a high priority then.

 

After The Sacrifice Update, they should make it a point to center the next couple major updates around actually making AW worth a damn imo.

[Buttaface]

On ‎18‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 6:57 PM, peterc3 said:

This is my biggest issue here. They don't trap people. They fix their game. If they had perfect foresight and the ability to make perfect code, then sure, you'd have a point. They don't and they have to wait to see how something works before being able to see if it fits with how they want their game to flow.

The above is obviously not the case. For example, leaving the Tiberon disposition high was calculated to increase revenue, no other explanation than the grossest of gross incompetence, and I don't believe they are that incompetent. There are many other examples possible. I don't know if "trap" is the right word, but they do make plain revenue-based decisions against game balance.

@thread And the "it's beta" really needs to stop as a rationalization. Yes, there is a definition of beta, and it's not "unfinished." By that definition ANY software of ANY type could rationalize in that way for ANY length of time after release. Regardless of whatever whomever says, software stops being in "beta" when they start taking MONEY from customers on a day to day basis that isn't part of some pre-release fundraising. Software terms of art, like any other words, have accepted meanings within their industry for a reason.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Buttaface

[BlackCoMerc]

On 2018-05-18 at 7:15 PM, peterc3 said:

Let me step in and say something, here. They are aware of everything people do in this game. A nerf could come to literally everything and anything you use now or will use in the future. This is why the game is called a beta. Everything is subject to change and you play this game with the explicit acknowledgement that this is the case.

They do not have infinite people with infinite time and resources to fix every problem at once. They prioritize. Does it break the game completely? High priority. Is there a damage formula that's off but isn't really hurting anything? Low priority. Does said damage formula being off trivialize a new piece of content? Low priority bug becomes high priority.

Except...the game is NOT called a Beta.

Not on the Store page. Not on it's own site. And for years, not in it's own irrelevant EULA.

DE added Beta BACK to the EULA following receipt if much deserved criticism of their (not) finished product. It was an attempt to avoid criticism that was as desperate as it was transparent.

You don't get to remove ALL indication of Beta, set up a cash shop and then when half baked, bug ridden implementation gets rightfully criticised, go BACK INTO Beta.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Buttaface said:

The above is obviously not the case. For example, leaving the Tiberon disposition high was calculated to increase revenue, no other explanation than the grossest of gross incompetence, and I don't believe they are that incompetent. There are many other examples possible. I don't know if "trap" is the right word, but they do make plain revenue-based decisions against game balance.

@thread And the "it's beta" really needs to stop as a rationalization. Yes, there is a definition of beta, and it's not "unfinished." By that definition ANY software of ANY type could rationalize in that way for ANY length of time after release. Regardless of whatever whomever says, software stops being in "beta" when they start taking MONEY from customers on a day to day basis that isn't part of some pre-release fundraising. Software terms of art, like any other words, have accepted meanings within their industry for a reason.

Remember when Loki using powers to avoid Laser gates was OP? It got nerfed.

Days later, Ivara got a new augment. That let her - you guessed it - USE POWERS TO GO THROUGH LASER GATES.

Or just before Vauban Prime released. Mirage got a Nerf. To her crowd control. Hmmm...

Oh, and remember how all those regular frame parts needed tons of Nitsin, so it made sense for primes to need it, too?

DE regularly gimps their own game to push plat sales. Heck, Rivens were basically tossing all hope of a balanced, engaging Experience out the window for a quick cash flow increase.

Once you start taking money from...you know where...this is what happens.

Edited May 20, 2018 by BlackCoMerc

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 2018-05-19 at 1:38 AM, Eivy said:

First off I love Warframe, I have for years, but here I am about to take another long break because of these frustrations.

I just stopped playing. Still stick around, following whatever little changes that happen. Nothing worth coming back so far.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I just stopped playing. Still stick around, following whatever little changes that happen. Nothing worth coming back so far.

Same here.

It's all rehashed stuff, cosmetics and gimpy the Mass Effect Early Alpha reject...it's like development of content for the actual WARFRAME has just...stopped.

[Mach25]

I hope the Sacrifice proves to be good. I remember I was discussing overhauls with a couple of buddies, perhaps you gentlemen may be interested?  We can discuss it via pm's. It is a rework of the energy and economic systems, star map, enemy characteristics, etc. Combined with Apero's Focus Rework, I think it would make a huge change and make the game very interesting.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

21 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Same here.

It's all rehashed stuff, cosmetics and gimpy the Mass Effect Early Alpha reject...it's like development of content for the actual WARFRAME has just...stopped.

more weapons. More warframes. More quests...! that barely offer an hour of gameplay while taking months to make.

[Mach25]

True, sadly. 😕

[AperoBeltaTwo]

16 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

I hope the Sacrifice proves to be good. I remember I was discussing overhauls with a couple of buddies, perhaps you gentlemen may be interested?  We can discuss it via pm's. It is a rework of the energy and economic systems, star map, enemy characteristics, etc. Combined with Apero's Focus Rework, I think it would make a huge change and make the game very interesting.

 One hour quest, m8. And maybe two-three people out of the entire playerbase would replay it a couple times (if they're even allowed to); and that's it. Quests don't do much good for a game like Warframe. Warframe is a gameplay-driven PVE expierience. Not story-driven. At all. 

[Mach25]

Yep. Which is why I wonder why these quests keep being made, seeing the amount of time it makes and the amount of time it takes to complete it?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Mach25

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 One hour quest, m8. And maybe two-three people out of the entire playerbase would replay it a couple times (if they're even allowed to); and that's it. Quests don't do much good for a game like Warframe. Warframe is a gameplay-driven PVE expierience. Not story-driven. At all. 

Agreed.

Even the devs, to their credit, have recognized the need to move away from scripted quests. They understand that the Dev time to player time ratio of scripted story content is a drain on the game.

If Warframe is to survive much longer - and I doubt it , seeing as how it's.not grown the player base in two years - DE need to get back to replayable, Frame centric game play.

Edited May 20, 2018 by BlackCoMerc

[Mach25]

On 2018-05-18 at 6:57 PM, peterc3 said:

They are trivial to find, as it is. There are known places with a 100% drop rate for built ones.

Where are those places you speak of?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Even the devs, to their credit, have recognized the need to move away from scripted quests. 

after two years of quests, while making another one.

[BlackCoMerc]

17 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

after two years of quests, while making another one.

Fair point.

I'm keeping an eye on things this year. I've a feeling though that I'd the game continues down this road, I'll move on completely pretty soon. 

Warframe needs new stuff to do. With Frames. Not more stuff to spend cash on.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Fair point.

I'm keeping an eye on things this year. I've a feeling though that I'd the game continues down this road, I'll move on completely pretty soon. 

Warframe needs new stuff to do. With Frames. Not more stuff to spend cash on.

 There's actually not an awful lot to spend your cash on either. If there was UV in the game, DE could capitalize on pets properly. If there was worthwhile high-level content to strive for, people would buy more plat just to get to that content faster and expierience it. If prime access wasn't... well... what it is, and if new prime gear wasn't as cheap as sunflower seeds (because of the fissures and leeches) perhaps there would've been a reason to buy those... Although I guess some people still do anyway.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

On 2018-05-18 at 6:20 PM, LSG501 said:

Then we get situations like gara where they took away the main selling point of gara's fourth ability because they decided it was overpowered after it was released (and purchased by many for plat) instead of realising it could be used like we used it in internal testing... seriously we can't play the game 'that' much differently to the internal testers...

If their internal testers are so vanilla and so conformist that they can't find what we have (Trinity Castanas room clear, ESO with max-range Saryn, Gara Hydron Cheese before she was nerfed, etc.) then they need to get new testers.

Or maybe they should have some sort of playtest build for the Design Counsel, or perhaps a very special group of Community Partners who are known for making game-breaking builds (with everyone signing an NDA, of course). Then they get all the benefits of good testing without having to pay for good testers.