[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[NEOMEM]

I would like to suggest the following changes to spores. Keep in mind the suggestions are assuming spores to be used as a debuff and not the main damage dealer. 

*Make only first spore cast consume energy and every other spore cost damage stack like Nidus. 

*make spores spread (half the range maybe or less?) on death by spore tick but consume a small amount of damage stack. This way it will scale appropriately with enemies so that it will not outright kill them but stay long enough to slowly chip away armour and/or health (basically be the debuff it was meant to be). 

What do you guys think about it? 

[KyrusDarkstrider]

1 minute ago, NEOMEM said:

I would like to suggest the following changes to spores. Keep in mind the suggestions are assuming spores to be used as a debuff and not the main damage dealer. 

*make spores spread (half the range maybe or less?) on death by spore tick but consume a small amount of damage stack. This way it will scale appropriately with enemies so that it will not outright kill them but stay long enough to slowly chip away armour and/or health (basically be the debuff it was meant to be). 

What do you guys think about it? 

HORRIBLE.

they increased the range because they wouldn't spread almost at all, and you want to go back to "spread less"?

[NEOMEM]

4 minutes ago, KyrusDarkstrider said:

they increased the range because they wouldn't spread almost at all, and you want to go back to "spread less"?

I meant it as a way to bring back spore spreading themselves. The other ranges stay the same. 

[Konachibi]

6 hours ago, Nurmetya said:

I've given up on Saryn entirely I'm not even bothering with this half baked attempt, I now fear the work "Rework" from DE. 

It's not the word 'rework' you need to fear, it's the word 'rework' when combined with 'DE_Pablo'.  If those two words are in the same sentence then your frame is probably going to completely lose it's identity and turn in to a garbage fire, if what has happened to Saryn is anything to go by when Pablo takes a look at it.  With what he's done, I'm no longer going to trust him when he messes with a frame, because there's been too many mistakes here and too much he clearly doesn't understand about how she works (like halved spore spread being an 'unintentional mechanic'.  No Pablo, I'm never going to let that one slide.)

11 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

How would you rather have her play?

I would rather have her play the way she used to work.  I'd be fine if they kept the Molt, Toxic Lash and Miasma changes because those are positive changes that merely enhance her kit instead of completely change it, but her Spores should be set back to the way they worked before all of this.

Here's what bugs me about this the most.  Before the rework I had a great build on Saryn that I really enjoyed.  It had a lot of range and duration and was only slightly above 100% strength with Regenerative Molt, then I had a melee weapon that had Healing Return on it.  In a mission, I'd activate Toxic Lash, cast Spore on an enemy, shoot that Spore, drop a Molt for health regen, then go nuts with my melee weapon against everything in the room.  The combined health regen from Molt and Healing Return (since absolutely everything had a Viral proc on it) made Saryn as strong as Valkyr, she could melee all day long without any issues, which is why I found it weird that in the original Dev Workshop they mentioned in the Toxic Lash changes that Saryn 'was not a melee focussed frame'.  She kind of is.  High armour, lots of health, health regen with an augment and Spores that cut enemy health in half so you didn't need to melee them much to kill them.

This rework ruins that build and the synergy she used to have with those abilities, because she can't get Spores running anymore, and enemies have twice as much health as they used to have so she has to keep bashing away at them till they die, causing her to take significantly more damage that Molt and Healing Return can't keep up with.

Spores were never really meant to kill enemies, they were meant to screw them over so the player could have an easier time of killing them.

We know that this is going to be a hot topic in the devstream tonight, there's likely going to be an outpouring from the community in the Twitch chat regarding these changes and how it's negatively affecting both Saryn and the people who get partied with a Saryn.  We didn't want her first ability to kill everything, we were happy with it inconveniencing enemies like every other warframes first ability did, and if DE want to show that they listen to their community, they'll listen to what we've been saying since this rework began instead of ignoring us and continuing on this path of trying to turn Saryn into some kind of cast-spammy corrosion monster.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Konachibi

[SyBuhr]

3 hours ago, Rambit23Z said:

Anyway, as you said; Agree to Disagree. At least we had a civil discussion. Not often you get that on the internet these days.

Have a nice day.

This is true. I am not adverse to reading what players have to say and suggest; My experience with Warframe isn't necessarily going to be the next person's and so on.

When I get the chance, I'll read through your comment a bit, and do some more missions with her when I can drum up the energy to do so, just to see if I am pulling the crapper out of my arse. I've already invested this much time into her, so it's pretty much a non-issue for me to do so. I am glad you haven't had the experiences I have had, multiplayer or solo, within this game, and it really offers something to be said when things work.

Enjoy yours, even if it isn't Day time where you are. 

53 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

'rework' when combined with 'DE_Pablo'.

See, I had high hopes and aspirations for the 3.0 change, because a lot of it seemed to be slight modifications to the kit, with the exception being her spores and miasma. The scaling damage feels like it was given to us because we lost out on the scalability of Viral. The Molt and Toxic Lash changes were highly sought after Quality of Life changes to fix player concerns. I don't think it was DE_Pablo's intention of necessarily ruining the frame's design and direction, but to offer players something in lieu of what was being lost, and I can appreciate that, if that is truly the case.

And I can still say that while saying I do not like the changes, because it did affect the frame's design and direction, regardless of how or why. There is only one effective way to play Saryn now, and she lost her former identity as being an excellent Debuff frame. I can still appreciate and value that level of work, where you are given something in exchange, even if it wasn't necessarily what you wanted.

But I feel that the issue can still be rectified, and it's just a matter of when they will do so. I think the best option is to say, "Hey, we hear a lot of Saryn players, and players playing with a Saryn, do not like the direction she was taken in, we are going to undo some of the more drastic changes to her kit". I personally feel that it isn't too late in the game to say that, and roll back the changes on Miasma and Spore, but keeping those changes to Molt and Toxic Lash (Including the removal of casting spores on her Molt). I can't say I've personally found anyone who was excited, or enthused about playing with me as a Saryn, since they know that someone in the team (myself or one of my squad-mates) will be relegated to a role that is either useless, or boring.

53 minutes ago, Konachibi said:

Spores were never really meant to kill enemies, they were meant to screw them over so the player could have an easier time of killing them.

Exactly this, and while spores had the potential to kill, such as when paired with a Gas Lanka or an Atterax, they could always be made purely to debuff a large group with a debuff nothing else in the game truly offers on the same scale and scope.

Edited June 1, 2018 by SyBuhr
Typos and Grammatical Adjustments.

[blazinvire]

Saryn's in a bit of an odd place, as much as I can sort of work with what I got, it's just it feels a little clunky.

Still feels like spores are kill-stealing, and allies still feel like a bit more of a hindrance than assistance, there's a synergy missing somewhere.
I can sort of see the struggle, given the nature of the skill, the scaling, and the fact it's a 1st ability meaning it should be comparable to Ember's Fireball and the like, but its current form is a bizarre mix of power and frustration.

I think we still need more spore management options, some way to work it all into her kit organically.
The spreading is still a bit of a quandary, but I think the solution lies in the Spore Resource, I think there's probably a trade-off or method you could use, some clever algorithm.
Like, perhaps if spore-tick-death-spread is returned to normal, but it consumes some of the Spore Meter to do so, ensuring the spread is a bit more consistent but also demanding input to foster its growth.
Maybe casting Spore on an already Spored enemy helps build the Spore Resource, or holding the button to supercharge a target, little options here and there.
Might also be able to play with options like perhaps when allies spread the spores, the damage neither increases or decreases, necessitating action from the Saryn while letting the allies help and benefit at the same time.
And then some kind of way to maintain Spore Count between lulls, when your friends are annihilating or scattering the enemy too hard for you to maintain a spore chain, or between defence/interception/Onslaught waves, something active you can do to try and keep your damage from dwindling due to events outside your control.
Collecting fallen spores from dead enemies?

Would also be nice to see some small synergies, like Molt and Miasma finding ways to use the Spore Resource, keep things interesting.
 

[Acquamancer]

11 hours ago, FrioCalor said:

After playing this Saryn 3.5.2, I have some stuff to say.

Well, she is better and more fun to play than 3.5, for sure. However, I have to ask this question again: What was the point of this whole rework? I mean, you did Saryn 3.0 because she was a Spore turret. Then in 3.5 you made her an energy hungry Spore turret. Now she's a Spore and Miasma turret. I mean, was all of this actually necessary? Look at Vauban, look at Nezha, look at Wukong, look at frames that actually need some urgent rework.

Also, her 2 and 3 are still quite useless in a way. Why don't you make her Molt heal naturally? That augment is a total band-aid mod, many ppl pointed that out in this thread and you basically ignored it, lol.

In conclusion, she's still a beast in tiny rooms with loads of enemy (Onslaught and some survivals basically) and she's still garbage in big maps with small density. It's pretty stupid the fact you guys are balancing frames around Onslaught when the biggest open world in warframe is coming somewhat soon.

Also forgot to point out that this current damage drop (either in Onslaught portals, Nullifier bubbles or just spore decaying naturally) is still $&*&*#(%&ed. Independent if you stacked 400, 800 or 1600 damage, stepping on that portal is waving your stacks goodbye. The actual problem is that the damage falls way faster than it can stack, since you have to keep recasting 1 (and damage drops even if it's on a target with no Spores, which doesn't make sense, since you "balanced" her 1 to be spammed again). So a fix for that would either be making damage ramp up a bit faster, decrease the damage% lost on Spore recast or just reduce this insane damage drop.

After reading some other comments in this thread and just accepting the fact you won't fix the usage of band-aid mods for some decent amount of time, you could at least make her Molt taunt enemies and increase the radius a bit. Otherwise, without Regenerative Molt, the ability is as useful as Mesa's 1st ability.

Anyways, thanks for not leaving us with that clunky, tedious "fix" attempt it was Saryn 3.5. This new version is not perfect, but it's miles ahead of 3.5 for sure. Some more tweaks and she'll be even more enjoyable to play. However, she's still not even close to the original proposition of this whole rework (making her viable in low density, large maps).

[Cibyllae]

3 hours ago, Konachibi said:

Here's what bugs me about this the most.  Before the rework I had a great build on Saryn that I really enjoyed.  It had a lot of range and duration and was only slightly above 100% strength with Regenerative Molt, then I had a melee weapon that had Healing Return on it.  In a mission, I'd activate Toxic Lash, cast Spore on an enemy, shoot that Spore, drop a Molt for health regen, then go nuts with my melee weapon against everything in the room.  The combined health regen from Molt and Healing Return (since absolutely everything had a Viral proc on it) made Saryn as strong as Valkyr, she could melee all day long without any issues, which is why I found it weird that in the original Dev Workshop they mentioned in the Toxic Lash changes that Saryn 'was not a melee focussed frame'.  She kind of is.  High armour, lots of health, health regen with an augment and Spores that cut enemy health in half so you didn't need to melee them much to kill them.

This rework ruins that build and the synergy she used to have with those abilities, because she can't get Spores running anymore, and enemies have twice as much health as they used to have so she has to keep bashing away at them till they die, causing her to take significantly more damage that Molt and Healing Return can't keep up with.

What's stopping you from replacing one of those duration mods with fleeting expertise and spamming miasma?

[LSG501]

13 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

That's not going to happen. Spores right now are arguably too strong in the right situations - yet not all that fun in any situation at all (in particular for other players). And an unwanted change for quite a few people, apparently. We don't actually want to make them stronger, that would be really bad. 

Molt not pulling all the aggro is also a feature, not a bug. I really like Molt actually, in particular the part where it doesn't get oneshot anymore. 

Spores are only excessively strong on onslaught, on normal maps it's pretty weak as there isn't enough enemies to ramp up the damage.  Even if you increase the number of enemies it scales from it's still going to be 'capped' at how much it increase.  The current countdown can pretty much wipe out your spore stacks in the time delay between rounds on a defence mission, even if it doesn't wipe it out it seriously depletes it. 

If you're worried about spores spreading on death when caused by spores it's easy enough to fix it being 'too strong', have a fall off on range, first one has full range, second one is half, third quarter etc etc or just straight up reduce the range it can spread, it's not like they don't have a table with 'spread range' or anything. 

 

As to Molt, what's the point in an ability specifically designed to pull enemies away from attacking you and then having a large number of enemies still attacking us while it's active... it basically doesn't have a high enough 'threat level', that's what most of us want changing, nothing else bout it needs to be changed.

[Traumtulpe]

Shameless repost for visibility:

14 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I suppose if enough people express their dislike for the rework, DE could scrap the questionable damage mechanics on Spores after all and create an amalgamation of all variants of Spores - the best of every iteration. I would imagine something like this:

• Spores are permanent - but they deal no damage, just status (corrosion or viral, switchable like Ivara's arrows).
• Toxin procs on spored enemies also add to Spore damage, displayed the way Spore damage is now. Adjusted by power strength, permanently decaying.
• Toxic Lash replenishes 1 energy per second for 5 seconds on melee hit (reset duration on additional hits), but does not deal 2x damage in melee.
• Venom Dose returns to being toxin damage.
• Miasma becomes gas damage.
• Spores can be cast on Molt again (it deals no damage so that's fine) + Molt's damage scales with it's maximum health (so it stays relevant).

Keeps Saryns identity and all mechanics while fixing all issues DE had with her. Plus some streamlining.

Spores aren't a guaranteed death sentence anymore, to spread damage you have to constantly proc toxin. Which all other abilities do in a meaningful and distinct way.

[feralknights]

@SyBuhr

I'd just like to say that you've basically hit the nail on the head on every problem that I've had with the "reinvention of Saryn."  Moreover, there's something I'd like to point out:  For as much as I keep hammering on the fact the rework was admitted as a mistake and the insistence that they have to continually sledgehammer a square peg into a round hole with this rework comes on the heels of something of a personal revelation this morning, one of those dumb shower thoughts:

The playstyle they're forcing on us with the Saryn rework already exists in the game in a much less stressful, more thought out form:  A power strength-centric Octavia.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

snip

Saryn spores just dealing with status effects is pointless, we just take corrosive projection to remove armour, they're not going to put viral back no matter how much we say we'd prefer it that way sadly....

Requiring a specifically mod'd weapon to do the damage on spores is kind of a backwards step wouldn't you say, before the rework it was an addition to the base damage. 

Tbh I haven't run out of energy with the rework and that's with 70% efficiency but then I do use zenurik for energy regen, so I'm not sure it needs the regen of energy from toxic lash.

Miasma becoming gas, tbh not sure that's much better than it being corrosive like it is now, still wouldn't have any scaling based on what you've written though. 

Spores on molt is part of the reason for the rework, it's not coming back, even though I wouldn't say no to being able to spread spores from it being attacked.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

Saryn spores just dealing with status effects is pointless [...] Requiring a specifically mod'd weapon to do the damage on spores is kind of a backwards step [...] I'm not sure it needs the regen of energy from toxic lash [...] Miasma becoming gas, tbh not sure that's much better than it being corrosive like it is now [...] Spores on molt is part of the reason for the rework

Spores causing status instead of killing is how they were before. You don't need a specifically modded weapon because all of your abilities proc toxin - it would help though, and a lot of people have weapons modded for gas because this synergy existed before. The energy return on Toxic Lash existed before, but in a less balance form - neat little interactions make a frame more fun and rewarding. Miasma being gas is meant to synergize with Spores instead of a cheap 200% damage increase - also specialises on clustered enemies instead of dealing flat damage. Spores on Molt in no longer a problem because Spores deal no damage - you won't stand in a corner and spam Spores on Molt that don't do anything beyond the first application.

Sadly you didn't understand the intend, or the consequences, of my suggestion.

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Spores causing status instead of killing is how they were before. You don't need a specifically modded weapon because all of your abilities proc toxin - it would help though, and a lot of people have weapons modded for gas because this synergy existed before. The energy return on Toxic Lash existed before, but in a less balance form - neat little interactions make a frame more fun and rewarding. Miasma being gas is meant to synergize with Spores instead of a cheap 200% damage increase - also specialises on clustered enemies instead of dealing flat damage. Spores on Molt in no longer a problem because Spores deal no damage - you won't stand in a corner and spam Spores on Molt that don't do anything beyond the first application.

Sadly you didn't understand the intend, or the consequences, of my suggestion.

Actually I don't think you understand how the rework you propose would actually work in the game, its all very well selectively quoting my previous post to try and push your 'idea' but it's not a good one.  Not to mention it's not going to happen.... DE are not going to go back to a viral based frame.

The only bit I even agree on is the fact that miasma needs some sort of scaling, not that your idea actually scales miasma. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by LSG501

[Traumtulpe]

9 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

selectively quoting my previous post

I literally quoted and adressed every single sentence, merely shortened to avoid a wall of text. Since you clearly do not understand my writing, I should just stop responding to you. Have a nice day.

[Konachibi]

5 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

What's stopping you from replacing one of those duration mods with fleeting expertise and spamming miasma?

Firstly, more duration means that Miasma, Toxic Lash and Molt stay around longer, which is a benefit.  Secondly, where's the fun in turning Saryn back in to the 'press 4 to win' frame she was back in 1.0?  I played Saryn back then, she didn't feel fun to play, then 2.0 came out and she was fun to play, now what you're saying is to go back to her 1.0 days where all she did was spam Miasma... no thanks!  I'd rather have the FUN Saryn back that was mobile and fluid and all of her kit worked nicely together under any circumstances, not this pile of trash in Saryn's clothing that barely functions outside of Sanctuary Onslaught.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Konachibi

[Konachibi]

So since this version of Saryn has now gone to cert for console players, it's probably fair to say that we aren't going to see Saryn return to her former glory, and will instead stay in this horrible mess of not working in low level missions anymore, so a closing statement is probably in order in case they lock this thread.

DE_Pablo.  The reason why Saryn was a fan favourite before this rework was because she worked in every situation.  You could take her along to an Exterminate, Survival, Defence, Mobile Defence or any other mission type and she would perform well every time.  This is what people liked about her, no matter the situation, she could always be relied upon to make sure everyone came out relatively unscathed.  This was thanks not to her Molt+Spore combo, but because of the one thing that made her unique to other frames, the ability to debuff enemies en masse and make them easier for everyone to kill, thanks to her Spores.  Now that Spores does not do that, and are almost unusable in every mission type except Sanctuary Onslaught due to infrequent and unpredictable spawn locations and enemy numbers, what we will likely see in the very near future is the amount of players playing as Saryn will drop off as people move on to another frame that does work in every situation.  This will most likely be Equinox, as Mend & Maim is still a top-tier ability that can crowd control, drain enemy health and completely clear a room.  You have ruined a fan favourite frame in your quest to create some kind of corrosive spreading mass-murdering monster, and I doubt many people will trust you next time you decide to 'rework' a frame.  All you had to do if the Molt+Spore combo was such a big issue was simply remove the ability to cast Spores on Molt, there was no reason for you to completely ruin a fun frame like this, and not fixing this new issue only makes things worse.  If what was said in the Devstream was true, then Titania is next on your list, and this saddens me because I like Titania, because while her kit does not function as well as it could, she has a charm about her that I really like.

Titania is not a fan favourite, for good reason, as her kit is clunky, unreliable and in certain conditions simply does not work, but I get the feeling that she's in a better place right now than she will be after you've reworked her, as you've displayed with Saryn that you do not understand how frames are designed and themed, or even how their abilities actually work, so I'm expecting Titania to go from a mass CC frame that can buzz around like a fly shooting everything in to some horrible monstrosity that will make people play her even less than they do right now.  

If you want to get rid of this stigma that is forever going to be connected to you from now on because of how poorly you've handled Saryn, you should know what to do.  Put Spores back the way they were, give Saryn her uniqueness and identity back, apologise for how frustrated and angry you have made the fans of Saryn, and in future when you're reworking a frame, LISTEN to what the Warframe community is telling you.  Do not ignore them and think you know better, because you do not.  We have poured tens, hundreds and even thousands of hours in to our favourite frames, and we know EXACTLY how they work and in what situations they shine or under-perform.  Instead of just throwing darts at a wall of ideas and going with whatever ones you hit, post your thoughts and ideas on here and then pay attention to what people say.  If people say it is a bad idea, it isn't because they don't want change, it's because IT'S A BAD IDEA.  If people say it's a good idea, roll with it and see if it works out, or alternatively, ask the community what they would like changed, altered or reworked, then see if such things are possible.  When people said the change to Spores was a bad idea (primarily the change from Viral to Corrosive), it wasn't because we didn't want change, it was because, as you have seen since, it was a bad idea, and you have wasted hours of development time constantly trying to tweak it ever since to work, but it will never work, because the foundation it is laid upon is not stable, and never will be.

It saddens me to know that from now I'll very rarely ever play as Saryn, and that the time I spent farming Saryn Prime to gift to my boyfriend as a surprise, and the many hours he spent playing as her since then have all gone to waste, as he refuses to play as her since the rework because his opinion, much like the vast majority of our opinions on the matter, and my opinion, is that she no longer works, she is no longer fun, and she is just MR fodder.  I can only hope that if you are reworking Titania, you have learned a very big lesson from this horrible mess of a rework and that you will pay attention to the people who are playing the game and paying the money that you get as your wage packet every week, instead of ignoring the myriad of voices screaming at you and leaving a frame in an unwanted and clunky mess.

[Kaerd]

 

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Spores causing status instead of killing is how they were before. You don't need a specifically modded weapon because all of your abilities proc toxin - it would help though, and a lot of people have weapons modded for gas because this synergy existed before. The energy return on Toxic Lash existed before, but in a less balance form - neat little interactions make a frame more fun and rewarding. Miasma being gas is meant to synergize with Spores instead of a cheap 200% damage increase - also specialises on clustered enemies instead of dealing flat damage. Spores on Molt in no longer a problem because Spores deal no damage - you won't stand in a corner and spam Spores on Molt that don't do anything beyond the first application.

Sadly you didn't understand the intend, or the consequences, of my suggestion.

This is exactly what I suggested should be done. I'm glad someone else is seeing things the way I am (my post is on page 7, take a look and let me know what you think). Unfortunately, I don't see DE going in this direction. Pablo really wants Saryn to be a really damaging frame, and that's what we're going to have. Kind of sad because as someone said earlier, it's Octavia in a different dress.. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

She went to cert in this bad a state? 

Wow. Good job DE. You dun goofed and won't quit. 

For reference since I was a saryn main, 

Toxic lash needs its energy refund back.

Spore needs to spread on death regardless of circumstances. 

If you have to have a way to balance it, make the way to scale damage up on spore to spread it yourself,  rather than spore doing damage. It fixes most of the afk issues you seem super hurt about. 

Those have been my complaints this entire time, and they don't seem to have been addressed. 

Good job DE for ignoring many people's feedback on the matter

Edited June 1, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname
I couldn't read some parts of my post, but I so believe in them wholly. That's why I edited the post, so it could be legible

[SyBuhr]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

She went to cert in this bad a state? 

Wow. Good job DE. You dun goofed and won't quit. 

For reference since I was a saryn main, 

Toxic lash needs its energy refund back.

Spore needs to spread on death regardless of circumstances. 

If you have to have a way to balance it, make the way to scale damage up on spore to spread it yourself,  rather than spore doing damage. It fixes most of the afk issues you seem super hurt about. 

Saryn main too. She isn't Ember'd, necessarily. She just isn't going in the same, fun direction she was going in during her 2.0 timeframe.

I tested again, and didn't notice spores spread frame allies. Someone mentioned they did, but I saw that number go down quick unless I personally did something. I am guessing allies have to shoot the spores now, and not actually kill the enemy... Which is ridiculous because no one is going to take the time to aim at the spore, especially when many people would rather just take their Zaws and melee the enemies to oblivion, or if there is a massive horde of enemies just surrounding you. So yeah, spore-spread by allies is still bad, in my opinion, because it still offers them a way to hinder you unintentionally. It's almost as frustrating as Limbo banishing back when he first was revealed, only instead of you trolling your team, it is your team trolling you.

1 hour ago, Kaerd said:

Pablo really wants Saryn to be a really damaging frame, and that's what we're going to have. Kind of sad because as someone said earlier, it's Octavia in a different dress.. 

And I think this is where the mistake lies. Don't get me wrong, her damage scaling is insane if you have proper conditions, but you aren't always going to have those conditions, and given that the future design direction for Warframe is open-world, she is certainly not going to see any use there.

The only reason I could imagine DE_Pablo wanting to do this is to replace the innate scaling damage we had from Viral, which can be appreciated. But it was poorly implemented, because you will never be able to just have your spores out all the time Debuffing, because their design direction was taken to this insane damage ramp up.

The problem is, is that you can't exactly have Spore spread on death now, because the damage ramp up is ludicrous, because it no longer ramps up based on the enemy you are fighting, it is ramping up per second, per amount of spores. You will never fully be able to balance that in any meaningful capacity, the same way you could just have Viral hit an enemy for half their HP.

Pablo, and even the Team, may want that, but I as a player do not want that, and as a customer utilizing their service, does not necessarily have to facilitate funds to them. I love damage, but I don't love it enough to have the direction of a Debuff frame, that could also do some strong DPS, just become a DPS-monster when only certain conditions are met, and when your team-mates decide to shoot the spores instead of out-right killing the enemies, and when X,Y, and Z.

To put it into perspective, if they make bad moves like this (See also: Ember), one can always just keep their wallet under lock-and-key. Which is probably what I'll do, in addition to just out-right not playing Saryn any more. I love the damage, I love that they took a chance with something fresh, but I can't imagine this is working out the way they wanted it to. Why would I play Saryn, when (like others and yourself have said), when I can play Octavia who has similar scaling potential to her kit, better CC, and more over-all utility as a comparison DPS frame? Sure, Saryn may shine in Onslaught, but that's it. Try taking her on a Corpus sortie, where Nullifiers spawn practically every other second ruining your spores. At least Octavia has built-in energy regen when she casts. Why would I play Saryn for anything other than Onslaught now? She doesn't function averagely in the Plains, due to the open and spacious nature of the spawns, she doesn't operate well in the majority of Star-Chart, she lost her Debuff potential if allies bring in Corrosive Projection, her allies can and will gimp her if they do not shoot the spores, etc. 

It just makes no sense to me why you would have a frame revolve around so many factors you cannot control, which are exacerbated by the fact that you can no longer spread spores passively when enemies die on their own, your team-mates can just out-right kill everything around you if you are not careful, you have no synergy in your kit besides your 1 and 4 now (why use Toxic Lash, when I can guarantee all enemies around me will spread?), lost the built-in energy regen. 

It's honestly just a mess, and if they leave it like this now or don't revert the changes, I can't see myself enjoying Saryn, or finding any PUGs that would enjoy playing with her outside of Onslaught.

[Bachuuu]

I think we can leave Saryn be for now. She's great. Powerful, fun to play. 

I like that you didn't ruin her. 

[robbybe01234]

6 hours ago, Konachibi said:

So since this version of Saryn has now gone to cert for console players, it's probably fair to say that we aren't going to see Saryn return to her former glory, and will instead stay in this horrible mess of not working in low level missions anymore, so a closing statement is probably in order in case they lock this thread.

DE_Pablo.  The reason why Saryn was a fan favourite before this rework was because she worked in every situation.  You could take her along to an Exterminate, Survival, Defence, Mobile Defence or any other mission type and she would perform well every time.  This is what people liked about her, no matter the situation, she could always be relied upon to make sure everyone came out relatively unscathed.  This was thanks not to her Molt+Spore combo, but because of the one thing that made her unique to other frames, the ability to debuff enemies en masse and make them easier for everyone to kill, thanks to her Spores.  Now that Spores does not do that, and are almost unusable in every mission type except Sanctuary Onslaught due to infrequent and unpredictable spawn locations and enemy numbers, what we will likely see in the very near future is the amount of players playing as Saryn will drop off as people move on to another frame that does work in every situation.  This will most likely be Equinox, as Mend & Maim is still a top-tier ability that can crowd control, drain enemy health and completely clear a room.  You have ruined a fan favourite frame in your quest to create some kind of corrosive spreading mass-murdering monster, and I doubt many people will trust you next time you decide to 'rework' a frame.  All you had to do if the Molt+Spore combo was such a big issue was simply remove the ability to cast Spores on Molt, there was no reason for you to completely ruin a fun frame like this, and not fixing this new issue only makes things worse.  If what was said in the Devstream was true, then Titania is next on your list, and this saddens me because I like Titania, because while her kit does not function as well as it could, she has a charm about her that I really like.

Titania is not a fan favourite, for good reason, as her kit is clunky, unreliable and in certain conditions simply does not work, but I get the feeling that she's in a better place right now than she will be after you've reworked her, as you've displayed with Saryn that you do not understand how frames are designed and themed, or even how their abilities actually work, so I'm expecting Titania to go from a mass CC frame that can buzz around like a fly shooting everything in to some horrible monstrosity that will make people play her even less than they do right now.  

If you want to get rid of this stigma that is forever going to be connected to you from now on because of how poorly you've handled Saryn, you should know what to do.  Put Spores back the way they were, give Saryn her uniqueness and identity back, apologise for how frustrated and angry you have made the fans of Saryn, and in future when you're reworking a frame, LISTEN to what the Warframe community is telling you.  Do not ignore them and think you know better, because you do not.  We have poured tens, hundreds and even thousands of hours in to our favourite frames, and we know EXACTLY how they work and in what situations they shine or under-perform.  Instead of just throwing darts at a wall of ideas and going with whatever ones you hit, post your thoughts and ideas on here and then pay attention to what people say.  If people say it is a bad idea, it isn't because they don't want change, it's because IT'S A BAD IDEA.  If people say it's a good idea, roll with it and see if it works out, or alternatively, ask the community what they would like changed, altered or reworked, then see if such things are possible.  When people said the change to Spores was a bad idea (primarily the change from Viral to Corrosive), it wasn't because we didn't want change, it was because, as you have seen since, it was a bad idea, and you have wasted hours of development time constantly trying to tweak it ever since to work, but it will never work, because the foundation it is laid upon is not stable, and never will be.

It saddens me to know that from now I'll very rarely ever play as Saryn, and that the time I spent farming Saryn Prime to gift to my boyfriend as a surprise, and the many hours he spent playing as her since then have all gone to waste, as he refuses to play as her since the rework because his opinion, much like the vast majority of our opinions on the matter, and my opinion, is that she no longer works, she is no longer fun, and she is just MR fodder.  I can only hope that if you are reworking Titania, you have learned a very big lesson from this horrible mess of a rework and that you will pay attention to the people who are playing the game and paying the money that you get as your wage packet every week, instead of ignoring the myriad of voices screaming at you and leaving a frame in an unwanted and clunky mess.

comon!  Sleep on it.  You seem to be over reacting.  Freaking....you're writing stuff like..."Pablo!  You ruined my life and my childhood from 25 years ago at the exact same time. " You're asking him to apologize? ha.  Look, I was upset when they screwed Ember but I'm not gonna put the ruiniation of my life on them.

[Konachibi]

7 hours ago, robbybe01234 said:

comon!  Sleep on it.  You seem to be over reacting.  Freaking....you're writing stuff like..."Pablo!  You ruined my life and my childhood from 25 years ago at the exact same time. " You're asking him to apologize? ha.  Look, I was upset when they screwed Ember but I'm not gonna put the ruiniation of my life on them.

Well, I may have been mildly over-reacting, I'd just got home from work, I was exhausted, and this whole thing had been bugging me the whole 8 hours I was there.  It's bugging me now, and it'll bug me for quite some time.  Pablo HAS ruined Saryn, he took the synergy she had with her own kit and with the team as a whole, threw it out of the window and tried to turn her Spores into Octavia's Mallet, except much worse and far less practical.  The original idea for this rework was to make Saryn easier to understand for new players, but if you look at how Spores operate now, it's made them far more complicated, far more difficult to spread and far less effective in the entire starmap.  In much the same way Ember is only effective in low level missions because of how poorly her abilities scale, Saryn is only effective in high level missions, and only ones with high enemy density at that.  It's like someone modified a car so the lowest speed it could do is 60 miles per hour.  You could only take it on motorways, you'd never be able to drive around on normal roads with it because it will always go above the speed limit.  Nobody would buy a car like that because it's stupid and unusable, and in the same vein, so is Saryn now.

Plus, this is a feedback thread, if you are upset because what they have done has made your gameplay experience with that frame significantly worse and no longer fun, you voice your opinion about it, that is what feedback is.  Personally the change has negatively affected my enjoyment of Saryn, a frame I purchased with platinum shortly after I began playing Warframe some 4 years ago, and as mentioned in my previous post, a prime frame I spent hours farming the parts for to give to my boyfriend who then spent his entire time playing as because he didn't like any of the other frames in the game.  Now he spends his time playing as Harrow because he hates how Saryn works, and he rarely plays the game anymore because he can't get the same enjoyment out of it than he could with Saryn 2.0, and I spend my time flicking through other frames trying to find one that fills the niche that Saryn 2.0 left behind (spoilers: there isn't one!).

And what of those people that bought the Saryn Prime Access?  It's £100~ down the drain for them.  What if this became a trend, that every new prime frame was given a 'rework' after sale that made them worse?  What of her Prime Trailer, that represents her as a spreader of plagues and poisons?  What of her description in the arsenal that describes her as having venemous attacks?  The change on Spores from Viral to Corrosive has undone all of that work and left her as something she was never meant to be.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Konachibi

[KyrusDarkstrider]

14 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

Saryn main too. She isn't Ember'd, necessarily. She just isn't going in the same, fun direction she was going in during her 2.0 timeframe.

Can you (or anyone really) explain this? I think I came after Ember got redone. I do however find ember to be in a better state than Saryn however if she was downgraded. While Ember is an energy hog, she's manageable. Saryn is resource light, but completely unmanageable

Edited June 2, 2018 by KyrusDarkstrider

[DjKaplis]

Hey!

Just tested her latest version after returning from a short trip and must say that it feels really good now with being able to recast spores (and the system you implemented for spores damage not to grow too fast and damage being reduced a bit by recasting seems perfect to me, i can manage the spores spread and damage for both high and low level missions).

The way Saryn's abilities currently work is great as I really feel encouraged to use all of them (and Miasma reduced damage, increased duration is amazing too for cc and ensuring that spores spread).

 

And I must admit that I was a bit sceptical before as I liked the previous Saryn too (most played frame along with Equinox in high and low lvl missions) and it seemed at first that so many things could go wrong. But you proved me wrong and it was indeed a pleasant surprise.

 

 

Great job guys, if upcoming reworks for other frames turn out as great, it will indeed be amazing to see!