Wanna talk about Trinity + Castanas?

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

15 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

Because until recently it wasn't that much of an issue?
Aviator mod is a huge component here, that and Diamond Skin (I believe the mod is call, reduces radiation damage) until these mods were used together and the way they interact with Link, self damage wasn't an issue.
These mods were stopping Trinity from taking damage, but still allowing Link to transfer the full damage to it's targets.

In a similar front to when Chroma's Vex Armour was fixed, from day one the Devs said that Vex Armour was bugged and they'll eventually fix it, but until the Eidolons they had no need, because there was no content in the game that 6billion damage in one shot caused any problems.
Why is that? Simple really, almost every boss in the game has invulnerability phases to counteract that, Eidolons don't however.

 

One of the very obvious oversight issues with "Nuke Trinity" is that Diamond Skin and Aviator are applying ADDITIVE rather than MULTIPLICATIVE to damage reduction, which they shouldn't be, especially when paired with Link.

So you do realize that by your own logic Link and self-damage are not the problem here, right? And as for Vex Armor, that could easily be capped instead of removing what is a niche mechanic at best.

The bottom line is that self-damage is part of Warframe and taking away any positive aspect of this detracts from what should be a robust and rewarding modding system. While I certainly agree that there may be unintended interactions, the correct response should rarely be to remove them entirely. In the end, what DE is proposing sounds more like a bandaid fix than one that encourages using obscure mods to achieve amazing results.

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

I mean, I get that. I was talking mostly about enemy levels not so much game modes. Power creep has worked its way into our mods, builds, frames, etc to the point the enemy levels we currently face (20-50 on daily content, plus 80-100 on sortie/ESO) is already too low for our dps output. So any AoE feels particularly overpowered when the enemy is getting one shot by whatever we throw at them. 

Also, I can understand and appreciate DE's current philosophy of wanting more dynamic gameplay, trying to get rid of frames that avoid contact with the enemy and just passively press one button to wipe the map, etc. I personally don't think nuke trinity needed to go entirely, could have just been toned down, but yea, I get it. I can ride with it, more dynamic gameplay is cool. What bothers me the most is just the mentality of some people here, the update hadn't even gone live yet, and there were already a bunch of people in this thread asking for an Equinox nerf next. Equinox does require interaction with the enemy in order to build his maim, even if that comes from his team mates, and his kit is really cool and well designed. If there was anything I'd feel is fair to change about him, it would be to ensure one equinox's maim cannot charge a second equinox's maim, just to void equinox stacking and main trading. 

Often in continuous-update games, there develops a conflict between the players and the developers. It's not a problem and there shouldn't be any enmity, it's just a matter of the developers crafting the type of game they want to deliver, and a large number of players trying to push their limits and see what they have the ability to do. This becomes immensely apparent in tabletop games like DnD, especially since the developer (your DM) is there with you and creating/experiencing the game in real time. I won't get too much into DnD here; the point is that when a game's overseer changes something, it's not to spite anyone even if that action takes away something the player enjoyed. The goal is to make an experience more in line with what the maker thinks it should be. They want to be a holisitcally better experience, and sometimes that means trimming the wacky-powerful stuff that makes some parts of the game trivial. 

In regard to nuke Trin, it's obvious that the interaction was unintended. Frames should not be allowed to nuke rooms from behind walls (slide-spam nerf is another example), and we definitely shouldn't be given access to area damage like that by throwing self-damage at our own feet. To put it bluntly, this is Warframe, not shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-frame. That kind of strategy shouldn't be rewarded if your intention is to create an engaging experience. In order to make it reasonable, they'd have to make it weak to the point of the bandwagon saying "why bother" and then dismissing it as trash. And let's face it, nuke Trin was only fun because of its results, not its gameplay.

In regard to Equinox, I'm not really sure where I stand on addressing her and potential changes. I think she's pretty okay where she is, although perhaps kills via one Maim shouldn't charge other instances of Maim like you say (and also perhaps multiple Maim's Bleed procs shouldn't apply), mostly to make sure she doesn't turn super passive. But I think the arguments around nuke Trin and nuke Equinox are two different arguments and really shouldn't be associated, since Link is designed as defensive and Maim is meant to actually be area damage. Link was changed because the ability was being used outside of its intended purposes. The sheer amount of damage it could dish (and its resulting popularity) definitely led the devs to hasten their decision to nerf it, but the fact remains that the change came because Link isn't meant to deal area damage. If Maim ever gets changed or nerfed, it will be because it's simply too strong. Maim is meant to be area damage and would be changed only because it's strong to the point of trivializing missions.

Edited June 6, 2018 by SenorClipClop

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

23 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i dont mind how shes currently played but i also like how DE does support. look at nezha, look at obe and harrow, look at equinox. you will never convince the "everything must be DPS" or "i just want to stand in the middle and do nothing" crowd. i just hope they dont turn her into harrow or obe because i already have those 2 and if i want those kinds of playstyles i'll play those frames.

Personally I can't stand how she's played rn.

[-.SP.-G43riel]

14 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

DE, you completely screwed the pooch to death and beyond on this.

You completely removed the mehcanic rather than made it reasonably viable, and in the process screwed over a bunch of people (all veterans) that invested 1000s of plat into the build without so much as an acknowledgement.

<Insert all of the bitterest salt and angry ranting here>

Seems pretty clear you don't give an F about veteran players, but rather, want to cater to casuals specifically who cry really loudly.

Sure... first off, im veteran, way more veteran than you by the looks
second, you dont speak for all and every veteran at all, not even close for its majority

third, just because you bought plat doesnt give you rights to brag or complain and order things around like that, its their game

Edited June 6, 2018 by -.SP.-G43riel

[Mak_Gohae]

i remember when i went through this with the Torid and the Rage mod.

The thing that's slightly annoying is that DE completely stops it. They dont adjust it so it wont be super OP they just kill it. In a game with a continuing introduction of mods and weapons with all sorts of abilities they are basically telling you not to experiment and use all those unique stats and abilities these mods and weapons bring.

And the worst part is that we get all these people screaming that the healer should only heal. This is why we get frames that dont get played, cause people stat yelling at other people because they explore different tactics with certain frames. That shouldn't happen.

 

[RogueVoxel]

Just as a reminder its only on the forums that people seem to be complaining that their builds got fixed

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

i remember when i went through this with the Torid and the Rage mod.

The thing that's slightly annoying is that DE completely stops it. They dont adjust it so it wont be super OP they just kill it. In a game with a continuing introduction of mods and weapons with all sorts of abilities they are basically telling you not to experiment and use all those unique stats and abilities these mods and weapons bring.

And the worst part is that we get all these people screaming that the healer should only heal. This is why we get frames that dont get played, cause people stat yelling at other people because they explore different tactics with certain frames. That shouldn't happen.

 

This

[Checht]

@Klokwerkaos

Few questions for you.
1. Why are you playing Warframe? Do you play it because you like the gameplay, or do you play it just to grind, to "earn" something?
I find it hard to justify looking at the ground, jumping and detonating a weapon repeatedly without even consciously targeting any enemies to be fun gameplay. If you play games just to grind, and spamming just 1 or 2 buttons to grind is okay for you, I suggest playing mobile games instead. You can even "autoplay" to grind for many mobile games.
If the gameplay is fun, one wouldn't say that there's no point in playing Warframe anymore once they've reached MR 25. If the gameplay is fun, "vets" would still play the game for fun.

2. If DE is greedy and money-hungry, and nerfing nuke-Trinity discourages "investing" tons of plats for builds, why would DE nerf nuke-Trinity then? It seems contradictory to me.
If DE is just greedy and wants your cash, they would leave inflated plat prices for Castana rivens untouched, as it is a good plat sink, which leads to more income for DE.
DE nerfed nuke-Trinity as it promotes a passive, non-interactive playstyle, it doesn't have anything to do with money-grabbing. The dev bashings are pretty unwarranted.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Checht

[Klokwerkaos]

Just now, Checht said:

@Klokwerkaos

Few questions for you.
1. Why are you playing Warframe? Do you play it because you like the gameplay, or do you play it just to grind, to "earn" something?
I find it hard to justify looking at the ground, jumping and detonating a weapon repeatedly without even consciously targeting any enemies to be fun gameplay. If you play games just to grind, and spamming just 1 or 2 buttons to grind is okay for you, I suggest playing mobile games instead. You can even "autoplay" to grind for many mobile games.
If the gameplay is fun, one wouldn't say that there's no point in playing Warframe anymore once they've reached MR 25. If the gameplay is fun, "vets" still play the game for fun.

2. If DE is greedy and money-hungry, and nerfing nuke-Trinity discourages "investing" tons of plats for builds, why would DE nerf nuke-Trinity then? It seems contradictory to me.
If DE is just greedy and wants your cash, they would leave inflated plat prices for Castana rivens untouched, as it is a good plat sink, which leads to more income for DE.
DE nerfed nuke-Trinity as it promotes a passive, non-interactive playstyle, it doesn't have anything to do with money-grabbing. The dev bashings are pretty unwarranted.

Disagree completely.  Your logic is twisted to support your narrative and ignores every argument I've articulated politely throughout the thread.

No thank you, please be on your way.

[Checht]

Just now, Klokwerkaos said:

Disagree completely.  Your logic is twisted to support your narrative and ignores every argument I've articulated politely throughout the thread.

No thank you, please be on your way.

Please justify how my logic is twisted?

[Klokwerkaos]

Just now, Checht said:

Please justify how my logic is twisted?

Do your homework first and I'll consider giving you the time, otherwise I've already taken the time to articulate several arguments you haven't responded to.  

I'm not your mom, I don't owe you an explanation or hand holding, your assertions are your assertions and you don't get to shift the burden of proof to me because I called it out as BS.

You failed to do your research, it's already here for you, if you can't be bothered then I can't be bothered with you, no thanks.

[Checht]

3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Do your homework first and I'll consider giving you the time, otherwise I've already taken the time to articulate several arguments you haven't responded to.  

I'm not your mom, I don't owe you an explanation or hand holding, your assertions are your assertions and you don't get to shift the burden of proof to me because I called it out as BS.

You failed to do your research, it's already here for you, if you can't be bothered then I can't be bothered with you, no thanks.

Your silence to my questions speaks volume then. I'll take my leave.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Checht

[NezuHimeSama]

Just a friendly reminder that link transmitting self damage in and of it's self was never overpowered, as the amount of damage dealt by Castanas, even with the maximum that should be achievable on Trin alone, would have still killed a rank 30 trinity prime with redirection and vitality.

The issue was elemental damage reduction, which is still broken.

[Klokwerkaos]

1 hour ago, Checht said:

Your silence to my questions speaks volume then. I'll take my leave.

Bye Felicia.

I already told you what to do, you refuse, you lose.

I'm not here to hold your hand.

Thanks for leaving 😄

[fluffysnowcap]

 

1 hour ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Just a friendly reminder that link transmitting self damage in and of it's self was never overpowered, as the amount of damage dealt by Castanas, even with the maximum that should be achievable on Trin alone, would have still killed a rank 30 trinity prime with redirection and vitality.

The issue was elemental damage reduction, which is still broken.

Yup, bang on the money. Everything in it was working as engender, and the only polesable fix would of been stopping overflow on link from jumping to new enimeys. But instead of a cleaver but of programming that would of kept it possible to train nuke at a much reduced rate, a rate that would be about the same ish speed as using the Castanas.

Talk about overkill for dealing with intelligent players using the full breath of a 5 year old modding experiment. But at lease it wasn't anouthr massive trim nerf to promote obron -_-... Again -_- adain -_- again

[RainzoneG]

Remember when people first posted the idea of Trinity and Castanas self damage? Forum peeps mocked it, insulted the OP and thought the idea was ineffective and trash. But but... But I thought the forum is always right!!! Where are those arrogant people now?

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

3 hours ago, RainzoneG said:

Remember when people first posted the idea of Trinity and Castanas self damage? Forum peeps mocked it, insulted the OP and thought the idea was ineffective and trash. But but... But I thought the forum is always right!!! Where are those arrogant people now?

Offical stance by de being known, people quit the already lost war.

 

My stance was wait for DE. It was and is clear to me that they do not intend trinity as a dps frame based on prior efforts to remove op damage builds from her. Nothing that could be argued would change the developers minds on intended vs discovered/popularized funtions.

I didnt fight againt players who actively used it, nor complain to them. I did actively warn players againt investing into the build untill de made their stance clear. Some people were entirely happy with trying a op build even if it would be totally gone from the game and didnt mind the investment. Others as you saw in this post flip their lid when their investment is taken away, blaming everyone but themselves.

[Klokwerkaos]

11 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Offical stance by de being known, people quit the already lost war.

 

My stance was wait for DE. It was and is clear to me that they do not intend trinity as a dps frame based on prior efforts to remove op damage builds from her. Nothing that could be argued would change the developers minds on intended vs discovered/popularized funtions.

I didnt fight againt players who actively used it, nor complain to them. I did actively warn players againt investing into the build untill de made their stance clear. Some people were entirely happy with trying a op build even if it would be totally gone from the game and didnt mind the investment. Others as you saw in this post flip their lid when their investment is taken away, blaming everyone but themselves.

Saying trin isn't supposed to be a dps frame is like saying nova shouldn't be a tank frame or rhino shouldn't be used for stealth or that Octavia shouldn't fill every role.  It is nonsensical arbitrary b.s..  The developers taking away a viable technique in whole represents a clear message from de: "never experiment or invest because as soon as you succeed we will take it away and make it absolutely worthless, only play exactly as we want you to play, so shut up, give is your money and gtfo." That's the problem I have with this.  It's not about the loss of investment, all investments are risky, but to have the entire thing kaboshed entirely especially when there are lots of genuine solutions on the table that aren't that, it sends a clear message of f the vets who take time to experiment and be creative. It's a problematic cancer and it's not limited to trinity, the same thing was done to Loki and others.  DE simply does not care, they are thoughtless, careless, and don't give a crap about players who invest heavily in their game and that's a very clear message being sent.  That's the problem.  I personally expected a nerf, and suggested several viable solutions, all of which were subsequently ignored in favor of screwing everyone that bothered to play with this very interestingly modded build.   The build could have been salvaged and balanced reasonably and instead they arbitrarily amd thoughtlessly decided to send this message instead.  For that I believe DE expects and rightly deserves all the salt they get for it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Klokwerkaos

[YagoXiten]

3 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Saying trim isn't supposed to be a dps frame is like saying nova shouldn't be a tank frame or rhino shouldn't be used for stealth or that Octavia shouldn't fill every role.  It is nonsensical arbitrary b.s..  The developers taking away a viable technique in whole represents a clear message from de: never experiment or invest because as soon as you succeed we will take it away and male or worthless, only play exactly as we want you to play, so shut up, give is your money and gtfo. That's the problem I have with this.  It's not about the loss of investment, all investments are risky, but to have the entire thing kaboshed entirely especially when there are lots of solutions on the table that aren't that, it sends a clear message of f the vets who take time to experiment and be creative. It's a problematic cancer and it's not limited to trinity, the same thing was done to Loki and others.  DE simply does not care, they are thoughtless, careless, and don't give a crap about players who invest heavily in their game and that's a very clear message being sent.  That's the problem.  I personally expected a nerf, and suggested several viable solutions, all of which were subsequently ignored in favor of screwing everyone that bothered to play with this very interestingly modded build.   For that I believe DE expects and rightly deserves all the salt they get for it.

I don't know. I've never had DE take away any of the builds or fun things I've found to do. Probably because they aren't reproducible with a macro and don't trivialize content that DE clearly intended to be a challenge.

[Bratty_Child]

WTB goodly castana CC, CD Dmg/Electric and a neg. 40p.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Of course you do get those people who are so unwilling to adapt, admit they were wrong, or are so self entitled they keep kicking the horse... 

 

almost got to admire it. even if those people eventually get them selves arrested for trespassing or forced to pay for damages. some of those "neighbur from hell" stories are hilarious...

 

anyways, Trinity is still a Super tanky Healer that is considered a Key frame for a ton of content. Her "Overprotective" build is still one of the toughest tanks in the game, making her and her teammates insanely tough in most of the content of this game apart from extremely long endurance runs where eventually any level of tankyness becomes pointless... then she still holds as the best energy source in the game.

Blocking + Blessing and Link + Arcane Aegis & Barrier = Shields are so tanky that nothing can get through them. well apart from attacks that ignore shields like poison, but that gets shot through the link at nearby enemies not affecting Trinity!

Edited June 8, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[Klokwerkaos]

3 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

I don't know. I've never had DE take away any of the builds or fun things I've found to do. Probably because they aren't reproducible with a macro and don't trivialize content that DE clearly intended to be a challenge.

All content is trivial and that Trend build wasn't something that was built to a macro it couldn't reasonably be done because of all of the energy management but hey why speak knowledgeably on something when you can just dismiss it

[Klokwerkaos]

2 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Of course you do get those people who are so unwilling to adapt, admit they were wrong, or are so self entitled they keep kicking the horse... 

 

almost got to admire it. even if those people eventually get them selves arrested for trespassing or forced to pay for damages. some of those "neighbur from hell" stories are hilarious...

 

anyways, Trinity is still a Super tanky Healer that is considered a Key frame for a ton of content. Her "Overprotective" build is still one of the toughest tanks in the game, making her and her teammates insanely tough in most of the content of this game apart from extremely long endurance runs where eventually any level of tankyness becomes pointless... then she still holds as the best energy source in the game.

Blocking + Blessing and Link + Arcane Aegis & Barrier = Shields are so tanky that nothing can get through them. well apart from attacks that ignore shields like poison, but that gets shot through the link at nearby enemies not affecting Trinity!

It's not about unwillingness to adapt that is a direct mischaracterization of the argument being made it's about directly punishing players for experimentation and substantial investment as a matter of policy and the Direct effects that this has on the game and the message it sends but I suppose you wouldn't recognize that since I already said this many times and you chose to ignore that argument

[Sasuda]

On 2018-06-04 at 1:53 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are going to change just that - no self-damage through Link. We are going to apply this rule to Trinity, Nidus, and Nekros for consistency. Trinity is a fantastic support Warframe and being top-tier DPS in addition to that role does not suit her. Expect this change this week on PC!

This was in response to the second post which was quoted, not sure if that's a result of merging threads, or if this was before some editing to the OP, or if this was just ignoring the fact the OP posted this right above which could have been quoted instead. That is a little unfair to say without the full context of the second post but I'll get back to that.

On 2018-05-29 at 5:54 AM, Trekiros said:

• 1 - Ideas that I think would be bad

-Self damage doesn't get linked, like with Nyx's absorb, or Octavia's Mallet

Why I think it's bad: well that straight up kills the build, no questions asked.

It does at least come across as a bit of leaving the OP's whole post seeming ignored without acknowledging why the forum was made. If, in the future, the OP and entire point that was brought up is at least acknowledged in some way that might come across a better. I really don't think it was intended to be a kick in the pants to the OP but I can see why someone would feel like they were kicked in the pants when their point and list of thoughts and explanations is given 2-3 sentences that did exactly the opposite of all of the points explanations and suggestions.

 

He had a number of suggestions which could have been implemented or combined to prevent her from " being top-tier DPS" but retained the technique using some stuff in the game that generally doesn't see much use because it's kinda bottom-tier stuff. I mean was giving them a place other than bottom-tier a bad thing? Because it could be made to a not top-tier form of DPS, while still being feasible and not take away from Trinity's role I think. I also had some suggestions which have been merged here.

Anyway getting to the second post quoted

Quote

Self damage cannot be channeled through link. First it gets rid of the problem forever, then it's consistent with the rest of the game. Rhino and harrow can't use self damage to buff their abilities so the fact that trinity can do that is very inconsistent. There's no need to nerf the castanas either, the fact that it's cascading means it's killing more stuff.

The consistency between different frames and how they can and could use self damage depends a lot on the ability. In fact Rhino not being able to self damage for Iron Skin is also pretty questionable as a good thing. He has a lot of other ways of boosting his Iron Skin though so he's not really at much of a loss when it comes to scaling. He also could be using Roar to further boost this. Nezha on the other hand shows how the mechanic of absorbing damage really fails to help him scale almost at all, so being able to self damage would at least give some consistency in having it's usefulness in higher levels. The thing with both of these 2 is that they're damage negation type abilities. Link abilities are very different, yes they are damage reduction but that reduction isn't based on incoming damage, and because enemies don't deal much damage relatively their output is relatively low. The abilities have big functional differences. Trinity's damage reduction reaching 100% is a problem of it's own so that problem still exists. The OP actually suggested altering this as well, which wouldn't quite be 2 birds in one stone but it'd be like 1 bird and 10% of another bird at least. With a few more tweaks both issues could be solved without leaving the technique annihilated.

The next thing to note is we're also promoting standing in the way of fire and doing nothing a bit here. That is if you're trying to take advantage of the mechanic. At least with the self damage it becomes a thoughtful process with a action to use it mechanically. Potentially you actually have to weigh in taking Damage as all of the Link type abilities could have been tweaked to include especially on frames with much lower damage mitigation. This alone makes it substantially different than 100% absorption and boost to abilities.

But even in those ability cases utilizing self damage is doing something beyond just standing and taking it. While it is a form of scaling it's most appropriate use is decoys and walls which are meant to stand and take damage instead of the player. If we manage the self damage scaling thoughtfully it really becomes more of an optional and clever use of particular weapons. So it really could be included on Rhino, giving him some sort of consistency in scaling and something that isn't jumping into the heaviest fire possible in hopes to have the ability last more than a second which also even if you do try that it doesn't really work. Same with Nyx, who also already has energy limitations. And an unnecessary damage cap. Harrow would be the one with the most restrictive self damage ruling since it's pooled among allies without consequence. Still could be made reasonable. A simple way of limiting it for Nyx and Harrow is allowing self-damage absorption up to a cap so in the case where enemy damage is aggro(ed?) away the ability is still at least consistently useful and self damaging weapons have a potential use.

There's a number of ways self damage can be used to benefit rather than hinder us beyond abilities at least these ones as well for other frames. Consistency among it's interactions isn't doing nothing on some but reasonable amounts on others. But that's my opinions on what is and could be really good and interesting and what would actually be more consistent.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Sasuda
grammar

[-.SP.-G43riel]

please guys let this tread die, its not worth wasting time on people crying for their cheesy strats being fixed