Vauban rework the reworkening, the final D20 Vauban feedback thread.

[Nez-Kal]

Well, DE announced in their DevStream (paraphrasing) "We're taking his pathetic 1st ability, and keeping it exactly the same but with a Charge mechanic added to it", so I think it's safe to say Vauban is getting a "Ember" style rework out of all this, and not a kinda serious Oberon, Limbo, or Hydroid one.

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

3 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Well, DE announced in their DevStream (paraphrasing) "We're taking his pathetic 1st ability, and keeping it exactly the same but with a Charge mechanic added to it", so I think it's safe to say Vauban is getting a "Ember" style rework out of all this, and not a kinda serious Oberon, Limbo, or Hydroid one.

Why can't they just look at the forums then? There's so many great suggestions I've read in the feedback - warframes and abilities section

[(PSN)blazzin_asian949]

Instead of his vortex, he get a nullifier bubble that disarms enemy’s that come in range and does away with other nullifiers. ?

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 hour ago, (PS4)blazzin_asian949 said:

Instead of his vortex, he get a nullifier bubble that disarms enemy’s that come in range and does away with other nullifiers. ?

Nah, I think vortex should stay. Just needs a good QoL change to make its range better. As it is now, even with a minmaxed pure range build, it barely gets a 10 meter range. 10 meters is barely anything at all in Warframe.

[nameomnz]

?

[Nez-Kal]

7 hours ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

Why can't they just look at the forums then? There's so many great suggestions I've read in the feedback - warframes and abilities section

Because DE is literally unwilling to Change Frames now in Reworks.

They're willing to completely change and alter entire mechanics in the game, but for some reason they've entered a state of Reworks where they basically keep EVERYTHING exactly the same, but adjust the numbers some, Enemy interaction some, and force Synergize as much of it together as they can.

Vauban is Classic. That's something important to understand. Because of that additional, they literally won't change a single ability EXCEPT maybe adjust his Second and it's scroll wheel arsenal in some way, and of course, try to add Synergy to his kit. This "Synergy" though is of course just going to end up something like "Now his 1st pathetic ability with its pathetic damage will do MORE pathetic damage to enemies trapped in Vauban's Bastille!".

 

Also, they don't do these pathetic, completely within the "Safe Box", reworks out of spite or anything. They understand that these Frames DO have players who love them and play with them often, and for that reason they don't want to "Take the Frame away", in a sense. For perspective sake, it would be like them taking the Galatine or Great sword class in general, and reworking the Slide attack to force Impact/Blast RagDoll every time and send Enemies flying away from your spinning death. It's "Sorta" like a Spinning Attack Great Sword, and it would be a "Neat" and "Fun" addition, but players who have been spinning the Great Swords around and cleaving the Enemies in two would despise the change.

 

(Honestly, I'll say I was SHOCKED that they mentioned getting rid of Nyx's 2nd ability in the DevStream. With Hydroid's puddle fiasco, I was certain they were going to try and "Synergy" her entire kit around it or something.)

[Hawk_of_the_Reborn]

1 hour ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Because DE is literally unwilling to Change Frames now in Reworks.

They're willing to completely change and alter entire mechanics in the game, but for some reason they've entered a state of Reworks where they basically keep EVERYTHING exactly the same, but adjust the numbers some, Enemy interaction some, and force Synergize as much of it together as they can.

Vauban is Classic. That's something important to understand. Because of that additional, they literally won't change a single ability EXCEPT maybe adjust his Second and it's scroll wheel arsenal in some way, and of course, try to add Synergy to his kit. This "Synergy" though is of course just going to end up something like "Now his 1st pathetic ability with its pathetic damage will do MORE pathetic damage to enemies trapped in Vauban's Bastille!".

 

Also, they don't do these pathetic, completely within the "Safe Box", reworks out of spite or anything. They understand that these Frames DO have players who love them and play with them often, and for that reason they don't want to "Take the Frame away", in a sense. For perspective sake, it would be like them taking the Galatine or Great sword class in general, and reworking the Slide attack to force Impact/Blast RagDoll every time and send Enemies flying away from your spinning death. It's "Sorta" like a Spinning Attack Great Sword, and it would be a "Neat" and "Fun" addition, but players who have been spinning the Great Swords around and cleaving the Enemies in two would despise the change.

 

(Honestly, I'll say I was SHOCKED that they mentioned getting rid of Nyx's 2nd ability in the DevStream. With Hydroid's puddle fiasco, I was certain they were going to try and "Synergy" her entire kit around it or something.)

That's the problem though. I'm a Vauban main, and even I say that his current kit is complete hot water garbage. I've seen so many rework threads that have great ideas that still keep that Vauban feel, while at the same time, making him actually useful outside of a strict CC only ability. He has literally no actual utility. His 1 is the worst in the entire game. If it could only do a radial shock to multiple enemies within its range, at least proc electric for stun. That'd be useful for once. His 2 is a joke. Who uses bounce? Shred is wasteful. 40% base armor reduction? 4 seconds? Really? Nobody in their right mind should ever build a Power Strength Vauban with the way he is now. That's just gonna make his 3 even more bugged than it already is. Vortex? A min maxed max range build only gets it a range of 10 meters. That's a very insignificant and short distance in Warframe.

I don't care about "classic" He isn't fun, he isn't neat. He's being left behind in favor of frames that can CC better than he ever could, while being able to heal the team, be the DPS, while also tanking and defending all at the same time. 

So tell me, why is Vauban not allowed to be powerful again?

[HadronVictorioso]

5 minutes ago, Hawk_of_the_Reborn said:

That's the problem though. I'm a Vauban main, and even I say that his current kit is complete hot water garbage. I've seen so many rework threads that have great ideas that still keep that Vauban feel, while at the same time, making him actually useful outside of a strict CC only ability. He has literally no actual utility. His 1 is the worst in the entire game. If it could only do a radial shock to multiple enemies within its range, at least proc electric for stun. That'd be useful for once. His 2 is a joke. Who uses bounce? Shred is wasteful. 40% base armor reduction? 4 seconds? Really? Nobody in their right mind should ever build a Power Strength Vauban with the way he is now. That's just gonna make his 3 even more bugged than it already is. Vortex? A min maxed max range build only gets it a range of 10 meters. That's a very insignificant and short distance in Warframe.

I don't care about "classic" He isn't fun, he isn't neat. He's being left behind in favor of frames that can CC better than he ever could, while being able to heal the team, be the DPS, while also tanking and defending all at the same time. 

So tell me, why is Vauban not allowed to be powerful again?

I must say, I agree completely. Vauban as he is now is a joke compared to how he could be; outclassed in every aspect by a frame that does his job, does it better, and does something else on top of that to boot.

[(PSN)zmanbuilder]

I believe that giving all the minelayer tricks to a special pet would be cool visually and fairly effective in gameplay, a pet like khora that is.

 

[nameomnz]

Since my thread has fallen into irrelevancy, I only wish to keep one thing.

Pleas take this into consideration.

Quote

Suggestion on Passive:

Neufrishac

"Vauban's Exalted Sentinal" Inspired by Tower droid.

-It may doesnt possessed any Health/Shield/Armor being undestructable until player die.

-Or able to reconstruct itself once destoryed(If we feel like the one above is overpowered)

-The sentinel itself doesn't have weapon, But will use the holstering weapon of the player. Switch between primary and secondary to switch its weapon. For example, If player have their primary out then Neufrishac will use the secondary, If player switch from primary/secondary to melee then Neufrishac will use the player's previous weapon.

-Cannot use exclusive mods from other sentinels.

-Vauban can still have a normal sentinel/pet while having his exalted sentinel like Khora.

-Method of its attack.

Which would you like?

Mark:Only attack the enemy that player is attacking or shooting at.

-Player have to be actively in combat for it to fight along side.

FOV:Only attack the enemies in the line of sight of player.

-More camper friendly, But still have to look around.

Automatic:Attack all of the enemies around the players.

-Just like other sentinels, But it use the player's weapons, Making him AFK friendly. But if they can do it with with Excalibur Umbra/Equinox then Why not?

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by nameomnz

[(XBOX)GhostofaMessiah]

Replace his 1 with Arc mines from the grineer level and his 2 with the pulsing magnetic blasting mines the corpus ospreys use.

[Surrebral]

Why not make the turret a Mountable Turret like in Grineer tilesets. Tap to cast throws down essentially a Bursa, while hold to cast produces the Mountable Turret that can be either auto or manned, letting other Tenno use the Turret while Vauban is doing other things.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

So not sure if this has been suggested for Vauban before but how about....

An exhalted tonkor and the secondary fires a rocket. Works in the same matter as ivara's bow: uses energy when used.

This can replace of the all cycle grenades(concussion, shred, bounce and trip wire).

Now whether it's an ultimate or I'm not sure because vortex and Bastille are pretty awesome abilities. 

Tesla is simple and straight forward as a 1st skill should be (wish it was 100% status chance and I would change its elements)

Edited August 5, 2018 by (XB1)Nightseid

[Valkhades]

Gonna give my shot with what im seeing here in this post and what was talked in the devstream...Not gonna try to make hard changes and try to keep the same, but gonna keep the turret since i love the enginner concept and fits vauban.




1-Tesla:
Stays what the devs are going, but in addition it will jam (Charged) vehycles\machines and maybe techweapons.
Using charged on hacking consoles reduces the difficulty by one, multiple uses if allowed could instahack skipping the need to do it.

2-Minelayer is gone, now BASTILLE take its place costing 50. Works as usual, a small range increase of 2m would already do wonders

>Using a charged tesla vortex on bastille refreshs and increases duration until double the regular time (2-3 uses of charged tesla maybe)

 

 

3-Vortex takes place of Bastille, it now costs 75.
>Using a charged tesla on vortex makes a explosion with 25-50% more range and also has a chance to proc (or will proc) a magnetic or electric status.

4-Turret, 2 flavors
Maybe stats are improved by strength to avoid being squishy.

The "dispenser" gives armor, shields\overshields and AMMO in a small area around it (1m-2m) strenght increases armor\shield rate, the area can be affected by range mods, AMMO is fixed per weapon type, and should be slow.
>Using a charged Tesla will "bounce" enemies back and improves shield and armor, also repair(duration if unbreakeable) turret.

The "Turret" is a EXALTED rifle weapon now on Vauban, stats like a hybrid crit\status endgame would be good. Shoots like the deployable turret but with greater range awareness.
>Using a charged Tesla improves damage and status chance, also repair(or duration like noted on dispenser) turret.
>A augment would improve the turret to also have a missile launcher.



Passive:
If it has to stay the same, make the turrets counts as warframes to help soloers
If we have to change to something more to "funside" when vauban takes vehicles or turrets, the damage when he user its weapons should be a facemelter.

And thats it, as any can see, tesla now improves all powers if needed when casted on his charged mode, turrets have a weird one that gives ammo\shields and a reason for a exalted primary. Hope thats fine or at least give inspiration for another ideas.

[(PSN)The_PhantomSteel]

Vauban is boring to play. The only usefull ability are bastile and vortex. the frame is a engineer-themed Warframe and should have diverse ability other than grenats.

My Ideas: first ability: like the operator he will ragdoll or stagger enemys with a special force push, but its wider range and stronger, charging will give you stronger and more range                                 

                second ability: concussion will control enemys for vaubans sake and attack only attacks allies and other enemies, bounce will be like a wall,it will deflect bullets to enemies back. vauban and allies will be the only one to pass through to bounce wall,he throws multiple teslas and will stagger enemies and the tesla will do more damage. the more tesla nearby the higher the damage multiplies. 

                Third ability: vortex (way more damage), bastille(no limit to enemies and longer duration ) deployable turret, drones

                Fourth ability: first: consume energy the longer you hold the button, when release the button he creates a extra/second high shield around him. it will be gone if the shield is gets damage enough. strenght will affected how many shields you get.

                                      second: consume energy the longer you hold but when tap two times it will charges that energy foward or around them and do high damage and remove armor from enemies

He is tactical frame and CORPUS frame and should use different technology like iron man or batman does.

passive ability: vauban has higher chance that enemies will drop energy orb or he will regenerates energy itself, and regenerate shield faster than other frames

 

and please make Vauban have way more armor and shields. He looks like a machine and should have that.

maybe armor around 400 or more and shield when using the shield mod max at 2000 shield

I think that Vauban is a cool looking frame and have the potential to be a good and fun to

Edited August 9, 2018 by (PS4)The_PhantomSteel

[Roadle32111]

A well worded rework is a rare thing indeed. I need this in my life.

[Paroxysmal]

i just want to add onto this that scott being like ' i dont see a lot' for things that needs to be changed with vauban was super depressing to hear, even if looking

there is so much that can be done, even if its just buffing his current abilities' numbers to be competitive

[Azamagon]

12 hours ago, Paroxysmal said:

i just want to add onto this that scott being like ' i dont see a lot' for things that needs to be changed with vauban was super depressing to hear, even if looking

there is so much that can be done, even if its just buffing his current abilities' numbers to be competitive

Woah, wait what??! He genuinely said that? Vauban has like the most redundant kit (6x CC skills, none particularly synergetic + Tesla, which is completely non-scaling) of all Warframes right now. How can he NOT see that?

[Synpai]

Overall:

• I like the direction you've taken, but I don't think you address all of the underlying issues of his kit. Such as his lack of synnergy between abilities (you're just throwing them all with no real interesting gameplay options).
• Equally you've pulled a DE and somewhat back tracked on a n improved system (Exalted blades have shown us that relying on an equipped weapon for an ability gets OLD)

Stats:

• I'm not sure why you made him tankier considering enemies shouldn't be able to touch him, but hey more not dying is always welcomed.

Passive:

• 10/10, but I think something else would better fit his kit like having a Ratel or something

1.Minelayer:

• I think the tap vs hold for two abilities is a lot better than cycling 4
• I don't find Tesla to be a bad ability compared to the scrambler mine it needs work: I think having it slow enemies in its radius with a chance to shock them (without chaining, since tesla itself wouldn't target a single enemy) would improve it. Equally just lowering the duration would be miles better instead of the complicated charges and delayed attack system. In other words a grenade that slows and occasionally shocks enemies that walk into range, full stop.
• Ideally here you would have "(Stun/Slow) Tesla / (Armor/Damage?) Shredder" grenade (Shredder launching similar to the quanta secondary fire could be neat; people could shoot it or recast it as you've mentioned).

2.Deployments:

• Would be nice to see the tumbling enemy rag doll other enemies haha
• I don't know how to feel about the Tether Trap it's basically Vortex-lite and you could just keep it functioning like vortex since the last tether thing that was introduced into the game was...terrible. Vortex has it's uses, I cannot say the same for the Ferrox alt fire haha. (Yes you say it reels them in not just holding them, but still)
• Ideally this SHOULD be "Deflector / Vortex"
• If Tesla was recently cast: "Deflector/Vortex" will have a chance to shock affected enemies
• If Shredder was recently: cast "Deflector/Vortex" will have a chance to shred enemy armor/damage (not sure about the damage shred)

3. Bastille:

• Can be held/charged to combine effect with one of the other abilities
  Tesla causes Bastille to shock suspended enemies
  Shred grenade causes Bastille to suspend enemies for a shorter duration, but explode and shred all affected enemies
  Deflector causes Bastille to function as "Repelling Bastille" augment (change the augment x.x; maybe to allow it to be thrown multiple times for reduced radius)
  Vortex causes Bastille to instead become a massive Vortex

4.Turrets:

• Simpler to just base deployment based on next used ability (similar to Ivara's Navigator) such that:
  1st Ability (Press 4 then 1): Throws/Summons a 360 short range arc coil (Glaxion x lite-Amprex) turret
  2nd Ability (Press 4 then 2): Throws/Summons a Corpus Rampart that shields and fires quickly (like the Dera) at mid range in the summoned direction (much like the deflector)
  3rd Ability (Press 4 then 3): Throws/Summons a mid range 360 plasmor turret that deals low damage but fires medium speed to stagger enemies hit (Staggered enemies are instead suspended)
  4th Ability (Press 4 then 4) Default)?:  Summons a long range ballistic railgun that has a chance for its bullets to explode into shrapnel

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Synpai

[Birdframe_Prime]

As somebody who doesn't play Vauban very much, but also does get a lot of distance on Rework threads... My point of view is that these effects you want (apart from Turret) could be done by a lot of his current abilities if they were adjusted slightly.

For example, a buff to Vauban's 1 would be that instead of being Damage based on 'charges' as well as duration, it simply becomes a Status and Stun inflicting orb based on Duration; Enemies hit by Tesla suffer minor damage and have their weapons disabled for three seconds, robotics are disabled for the same amount.

While his Minelayer, while a little... bitty, could be consolidated a little. Bounce becomes your Deflector, Trip Wire becomes your Tether, while Concussion and Shredder combine into a single function as the enemy Debuff and Damage in something like 'strips a portion of armour, deals damage and ragdolls enemies'. Give you a nice rock-paper-scissors balance of CC, Defense and Offense. Instead of 4, it's easier as 3 ^^

Bastille can, naturally, have the changes you want for it, I'm all for those, but then...

I'm just not sure about Turret. So far this is a really, really good kit, with enemy control in a variety of forms and even some Defense in the form of Deflector. But as we've seen on many frames; being reliant on the weapons you bring with you can be supremely limiting.

On the other hand, having a deployed turret that you could drop down, having either the same range as Bastille, or having a larger one and giving priority to enemies caught in Bastille? That could have interesting properties.

So... I'm not sure, but with some tweaks you could convince me?

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

So to the vauban turret ideas (theres would too many to quote) but...

I like the thought of making the turret into exhaulted primary weapon - so you can mods.

And...

It would be cool if it remained a cycle ability like minelayer but cycles thru...

1. A machine gun turret (punch through)

2. A launcher turret (blast dmg)

3. A beam turret (high status)

4. A sniper turret (high crit)

As neat as minelayer was, vauban's other abilities are sufficient for cc/utility.

After thought- you can deploy up to 3 turrets but a mod will make it so you deploy 1 moa instead of stationary turret.

Edited August 6, 2018 by (XB1)Nightseid
After thought

[LascarCapable]

Hey there everyone. Surprising to see a lot of answers all of sudden.

I would like first of all to remind to everyone that this thread is made to discuss the ideas suggested in the OP. If some of you want to make your own stuff without discussing too much the content suggested in the OP, please make another thread instead. This rule exists because I want feedback specifically on the stuff I am suggesting, and because I don't really want to see my thread potentially hijacked.

Now I am going to try to answer some posts

Il y a 4 heures, Synpai a dit :

Overall:

• I like the direction you've taken, but I don't think you address all of the underlying issues of his kit. Such as his lack of synnergy between abilities (you're just throwing them all with no real interesting gameplay options).
• Equally you've pulled a DE and somewhat back tracked on a n improved system (Exalted blades have shown us that relying on an equipped weapon for an ability gets OLD)

Stats:

• I'm not sure why you made him tankier considering enemies shouldn't be able to touch him, but hey more not dying is always welcomed.

Passive:

• 10/10, but I think something else would better fit his kit like having a Ratel or something

1.Minelayer:

• I think the tap vs hold for two abilities is a lot better than cycling 4
• I don't find Tesla to be a bad ability compared to the scrambler mine it needs work: I think having it slow enemies in its radius with a chance to shock them (without chaining, since tesla itself wouldn't target a single enemy) would improve it. Equally just lowering the duration would be miles better instead of the complicated charges and delayed attack system. In other words a grenade that slows and occasionally shocks enemies that walk into range, full stop.
• Ideally here you would have "(Stun/Slow) Tesla / (Armor/Damage?) Shredder" grenade (Shredder launching similar to the quanta secondary fire could be neat; people could shoot it or recast it as you've mentioned).

2.Deployments:

• Would be nice to see the tumbling enemy rag doll other enemies haha
• I don't know how to feel about the Tether Trap it's basically Vortex-lite and you could just keep it functioning like vortex since the last tether thing that was introduced into the game was...terrible. Vortex has it's uses, I cannot say the same for the Ferrox alt fire haha. (Yes you say it reels them in not just holding them, but still)
• Ideally this SHOULD be "Deflector / Vortex"
• If Tesla was recently cast: "Deflector/Vortex" will have a chance to shock affected enemies
• If Shredder was recently: cast "Deflector/Vortex" will have a chance to shred enemy armor/damage (not sure about the damage shred)

3. Bastille:

• Can be held/charged to combine effect with one of the other abilities
  Tesla causes Bastille to shock suspended enemies
  Shred grenade causes Bastille to suspend enemies for a shorter duration, but explode and shred all affected enemies
  Deflector causes Bastille to function as "Repelling Bastille" augment (change the augment x.x; maybe to allow it to be thrown multiple times for reduced radius)
  Vortex causes Bastille to instead become a massive Vortex

4.Turrets:

• Simpler to just base deployment based on next used ability (similar to Ivara's Navigator) such that:
  1st Ability (Press 4 then 1): Throws/Summons a 360 short range arc coil (Glaxion x lite-Amprex) turret
  2nd Ability (Press 4 then 2): Throws/Summons a Corpus Rampart that shields and fires quickly (like the Dera) at mid range in the summoned direction (much like the deflector)
  3rd Ability (Press 4 then 3): Throws/Summons a mid range 360 plasmor turret that deals low damage but fires medium speed to stagger enemies hit (Staggered enemies are instead suspended)
  4th Ability (Press 4 then 4) Default)?:  Summons a long range ballistic railgun that has a chance for its bullets to explode into shrapnel

 

 

Quite surprised to see "no synergies" as a feedback. I actually to pull out multiple synergies in the shape of enemy movement manipulation. That stuff mostly revolves around Vauban's 2 through deflectors and tether mines. You basically use those to pull or push enemies in your own mines or your bastille, Your mines can shred armor and shields for your turret... More may exist if you think a bit outside of the box. You can still expect some changes though, as I would like to simplify even further the kit and create some much more solid and innate synergies.

The ability to shoot your mines to trigger them from range by shooting at them is already present in the ability description. Expect it to come back with the simplified version of minelayer mines. I'm not going to discuss too much about the suggested changes because those are going to change anyway, but expect the two mines to be more about enemy relocations. This MIGHT include a Vortex mine, exploding in a large radius and pulling enemies towards the center of the explosion. By the way, Tesla won't go back. Sorry : this is just not a conservative rework.

Tether trap was created as a replacement of Vortex because it needed to recieve multiple balance changes to fit its new cost, and because it needed to fit a theme. Vortex by itself is a hard CC ability with a shorter range than Bastille but no target cap, which makes both Bastille and Vortex compete with each other instead of completing each other, which is terrible design. I could have just created a short duration Vortex with very high range but it wouldn't have fit the deployable theme. Vortex having a target cap (balance feature) would have also been wierd. So instead, you get Tether trap. Those two wlll change anyway.

Bastille will pretty much remain the same than what I suggested. I won't make stuff such as "you can throw stuff at Bastille's walls and turn it into a repelling bastille". It just sounds too clunky to me.

About Turrets, the turret is supposed to copy the weapon you are currently holding. The stuff I explained are just behaviour changes for the turret depending of your weapon type. Your suggestion won't be a thing because it would greatly limit the possibilities of that ability. Why should I be forced to choose between four guns when I could use any gun in the game as a deadly sentry ? Just pack a good gun with you and make that pretty little thing work. :)

Il y a 3 heures, Thaylien a dit :

As somebody who doesn't play Vauban very much, but also does get a lot of distance on Rework threads... My point of view is that these effects you want (apart from Turret) could be done by a lot of his current abilities if they were adjusted slightly.

For example, a buff to Vauban's 1 would be that instead of being Damage based on 'charges' as well as duration, it simply becomes a Status and Stun inflicting orb based on Duration; Enemies hit by Tesla suffer minor damage and have their weapons disabled for three seconds, robotics are disabled for the same amount.

While his Minelayer, while a little... bitty, could be consolidated a little. Bounce becomes your Deflector, Trip Wire becomes your Tether, while Concussion and Shredder combine into a single function as the enemy Debuff and Damage in something like 'strips a portion of armour, deals damage and ragdolls enemies'. Give you a nice rock-paper-scissors balance of CC, Defense and Offense. Instead of 4, it's easier as 3 ^^

Bastille can, naturally, have the changes you want for it, I'm all for those, but then...

I'm just not sure about Turret. So far this is a really, really good kit, with enemy control in a variety of forms and even some Defense in the form of Deflector. But as we've seen on many frames; being reliant on the weapons you bring with you can be supremely limiting.

On the other hand, having a deployed turret that you could drop down, having either the same range as Bastille, or having a larger one and giving priority to enemies caught in Bastille? That could have interesting properties.

So... I'm not sure, but with some tweaks you could convince me?

It's not always necessary to have a full rework. But when it comes about Vauban and how much of a mess his kit is, it felt really needed to me.

Reducing the amount of stuff from minelayer from 4 to 3 would still require you to cycle through multiple abilities, making you lose time and making the kit clunkier to work. It's much better to just keep two different styles on two different abilities, so no cycling is involved. Tesla could be kept indeed, but to be honest it's not that interesting.

A bit unsure about Turret ?  Turret has the potential to become REALLY strong, since it has such a high versatility (you can turn any weapon into a turret, how is that not crazy ?). I tried to limit that power factor by reducing damage by a percentage, giving to the turret a limited action angle and giving it hp because it felt necessary to me to tune down that would basically be an ability that may pay instead of you : the last thing I want is encouraging a lazy playstyle. However, stuff such as status chance remain untouched. Don't worry, you can clearly find some excellent uses to that ability, both as a damage dealing and as an utility tool. Making the turret focus on enemies captured by Bastille could be a thing as well, but since Bastille does not have any target cap anymore, I see less the point about using that. You can still get that result by positionning your Turret at the right spot, since the Turret will be very likely to target the nearest enemy first.

Some changes will probably come, mostly about Minelayer and Deployables.

Le 03/08/2018 à 22:08, Hawk_of_the_Reborn a dit :

This has got to be the best rework idea I've seen to date. I've been reading a few threads in the past week that also had good ideas as well, but I'm kinda iffy on his current proposed passive. I still think it should still remain as his current live passive, but extended to at least affinity range. Or perhaps have it affect nearby allies as well, because he is the castle/fortress frame right? He's defensive CC, so why not have a passive that affects his team's armor as a whole as well?

Reinforce

An engineer by trade, Vauban and any allies within affinity range gains 25% extra armor per ally. This does not count Vauban into the added armor bonus, but can stack with other allied Vaubans in the team. This is only based off of base armor and is not affected by any mods or other external factors such as Oberon's Renewal/Hallowed ground armor bonus

 

EDIT: This bonus is multiplicative, as to have diminishing returns if there is more than one Vauban in a squad. I feel that it makes him a powerful alternative to the likes of Gara or Frost, without stealing their thunder and still remaining fairly balanced in his own spots

I don't find that passive acceptable because it screws you up as a solo player. I want Vauban's passive to remain decent in solo play as well. To an extent, Vauban does not have a lot of Armor and even less ways to heal himself. That kind of passive feels quite wasted on a Warframe like him. Making that armor a team buff is clearly an excellent improvement don't get me wrong, but still wouldn't fix what in my opinion is a core issue with Vauban's passive.

 

Back to the main subject, here's an update :

I am probably going to dump that rework once again because I am not satisfied with it. After reading it again, I find like I bloated some abilities too much, and right now I am not sure what I could do to improve my ideas. I think I am go back from scratch. The core ideas will be kept, but I want to make everything more homogenous and much more simple. I would like to reach the following result :

• Something allowing you to manipulate enemy position in a precise way, in order to combo it with your other abilities, if possible in the shape of a trap because Vauban is all about deadly traps.
• Something that would help you with survivability, so Vauban becomes more viable at higher levels when enemies start to really hurt you, which will be necessary since you won't be able to spam Basilles anymore.
• Bastille, probably in a very altered form, so it doesn't outshine your other abilities but still remain the staple of Vauban's kit.
• A damageful deployable.

I've also been working since several days with another user. That user is called @FoxFX, and he's working on a Vauban rework that is starting to look like something solid. Hopefully I am allowed to speak about it though. The dude has overall some nice ideas that maybe go a bit too far, but still would be very interesting to check out.

Next update will probably be a new thread. When this will happen, I'll close this thread and redirect everyone towards the new one.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

On 2018-06-03 at 8:19 AM, D20 said:

PASSIVE - grenadier : Vauban is immune to self damage.

1. Minelayer : Toss a mine with two different effect depending of how the user pressed the ability button.
   • Tapping the ability button will toss a shredder mine : the shredder mine inflict a small amount of damage upon detonating, ragdolling and reducing a the same time the enemy's armor and speed.
   • Holding the ability button will toss a scrambler mine : the scrambler mine will disable the enemy's weapons, traps and robots for a brief moment upon detonating. All enemies affected will also suffer a magnetic proc and drop a random ammo pack on the ground. Also deals a small amount of damage.
   • Each mine has a detonation radius and a detection radius. In order for a mine to detonate, an enemy must enter its detection radius.
   • If you need to, you can manually trigger mines by attacking them. Manually triggered mines will add a small percentage of your weapon's damage to the explosion's damage.
   • Debuff effect/duration of mines are doubled if the enemy has been recently hit by a tether or a deflector.
   • Mines are affected by power range (detection and explosion radius), power duration (debuff durauon) and power strenght (debuff strenght).
   • 25 energy.
2. Deployments : Toss a deployable to control the enemy's positionning.
   • Taping the ability button will toss a deflector that blocks enemy shots. Enemies attempting to pass through deflector will be bumped in the direction the deflector is facing.
     • The deflector will always face in the direction Vauban was facing when throwing the deflector.
     • Deflectors have a narrow size, large enough to bring cover for a single player.
   • Holding the ability button will toss a tether trap. Tether traps will latch on a limited number of enemies entering is trigger radius and reel them towards the center of the trap for their whole duration.
     • The tethering effect stagger the latched enemy when triggered, but does not bring any CC effect afterwards (enemies can still shoot at you.
     • Tethered enemies will only be able to walk on a 2m radius around the tether.
     • Tethering will break if enemies are forcibly pushed away of the tethering area or if they get hit by a Deflector.
     • When the target cap is reached, the tether trap with either break down if all affected enemies are killed/moved or when its duration expires.
   • Affected by power duration (trap duration), power strenght (knockback power, tethered enemies count) and power range (deflector width, tether trap detection radius).
   • 25 Energy.
3. Bastille : Works the same than the current Bastille with a few changes.
   • Lowered radius.
   • Increased duration.
   • No more enemy cap.
   • Cannot be stacked : last instance of Bastille will always replace the old one.
   • Affected by power range and power duration.
   • Same cost
4. Turret : Creates a turret weilding an holographic version of your currently held weapon.
   • The turret will automatically fire at enemies coming in a wide cone in front of it.
   • The turret deals a percentage of your weapon's damage.
   • Turret's detection cone depends of the kind of weapon used.
     • Snipers will have the longest range, but also have a narrower detection cone.
     • Melee weapons will chase enemies on a 360 degree radius, but only in a small perimeter.
     • Other weapons will target enemies on a wide cone and average range.
   • Turret have limited health and shield.
   • Only one turret can remain on the battlefield per user. New turrets will replace the old one.
   • The turret deals bonus damage to ennemies who recently triggered mines and enemies affected by Bastille.
   • Holding the ability button will change the turret's weapon to your currently held weapon without any energy cost.
   • Affected by power strenght (percentage capped at 100% weapon damage, shields, health) and power range (detection range)
   • 100 energy.

STAT CHANGES :

• Vauban :
  • Base shields raised from 100 to 125.
  • Base armor raised from 50 to 150.
• Vauban Prime :
  • Base shields raised from 100 to 125.
  • Base armor raised from 100 to 200

So real quick I like re-rework but deployment seems like something that is already repeated by volt, frost, garage and even atlas- no need for another shield or wall ability

I personally like vortex, it's one of the original capture abilities (before nidus and Korra copied it)

Your idea of having the turret be a copy of your current weapon sounds cool but also limiting. I would like to have the turret rapid fire melee mobs while I snipe high value targets, we all know we can't trust the AI to make those decisions for us.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, D20 said:

Turret has the potential to become REALLY strong, since it has such a high versatility (you can turn any weapon into a turret, how is that not crazy ?)

Not to sound combative, but that doesn't sound so crazy unless... it becomes based on Stat Sticks, like DE have been moving away from in recent times. Even if it just worked off the weapon's mods, you would still be seeing the exact same building that you got for the other frames. It's why all the Ability Weapons have become separately mod-able and why they're still debating about ones like Avalanche and Whipclaw.

I would far rather have an ability that works on its own merits than one that requires you to bring a specific type of weapon to achieve the results you desire. I don't want it to be like one of the other frames, having an Ability Weapon that you have to mod and Forma separately, but just an ability that doesn't need you to bring a specific weapon type for it to do something specific.

Just for comparison's sake, I'll just see if I can come up with a similar ability and pitch it as a variant... give me a second... I don't want to stray too far from your concept...

How aboouuuut.... 'Artillery'. Vauban places a turret that launches projectiles that cause high damage in different areas of effect, with Vauban able to dictate where it fires with further presses of the ability button?

By default it launches the attack in an AoE around itself, similar to your Melee version of Turret until the end of the ability Duration, more of a 'no man's land'. To change this, you can deploy a 'target' for the ability where, depending on how far away from the Artillery you are it changes the effects to what you were hoping for from the Secondary and Sniper variants. Further than the base range is the shotgun/rifle/secondary variant, like... like a 'flak cannon' cone of effect, able to hit multiple targets but has fall-off, beyond that becomes the sniper variant or 'cannon' and will fire a more direct line-of-effect towards your target in the same kind of effect as the Opticor.

Ability keeps firing as long as there's an enemy in the effect's range, AoE, Cone or Line, until end of Duration, meaning you can have an Area Denial on the spot, in a Cone, or in a direct Line. At any point, just deploy the 'target' into one of the three ranges to change the point of aim and the effect that range generates.

Thoughts?

[Synpai]

1 hour ago, D20 said:

You basically use those to pull or push enemies in your own mines or your bastille, Your mines can shred armor and shields for your turret... More may exist if you think a bit outside of the box.

This is a tricky territory. Remember this is a coop horde game where most players would rather have the enemies swarm them quickly so they can be murdered than stuck in spawn. (Welcome to the Limbo Dilemma). Bastille and Vortex are nice because they control without locking enemies too far away. Equally you're in contest with your allies, spending a lot of time to set up traps that potentially never see the light of day as enemies are nuked (Welcome to the Pseudo-cooperative nature of Warframe).

 

1 hour ago, D20 said:

About Turrets, the turret is supposed to copy the weapon you are currently holding. The stuff I explained are just behaviour changes for the turret depending of your weapon type. Your suggestion won't be a thing because it would greatly limit the possibilities of that ability.

Your suggestion completely locks out one turret type if you don't bring a sniper, yet being able to change turrets by hitting different combinations is limiting? 

Not to mention the situation to change a turret: Stop killing enemies to swap weapon to throw down desired turret. That just sounds more clunky than simultaneous ability casts. Want a rail gun? You just press 4 twice at a speed and severity you deem appropriate. Not to mention it could all be wrapped up under general "Cast Speed" if needed rather than each weapon's individual swap speed.

On 2018-06-03 at 8:19 AM, D20 said:

The turret deals a percentage of your weapon's damage.

Warframe History has shown that this type of design is terrible. Original Archwing, Original Exalted Weapons, Current Kavats/Kubrows.