[Spoilers] Regarding the location of the Lotus?.

[CuChulainnWD]

It's as good a guess as any at this point. Suffice to say I am looking forward to finding out. So.... Hurry up and wait.

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

6 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Either way transference is not out of the question. Rell chose to inhabit his warframe exclusively., Silvana became a tree, why can't Margulis also inhabit a sentient body?

I think to transfer to something, the new body has to be willing, or at the very least not being conscious more as aware of stuff going on and can truly understand what's happening. That's why the Unum can transfer to creatures in the plains maybe also need a natural Oro. And the infestation doesn't consume the Oro of victims, thus allowing us to transfer to warframes. Who really knows?

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

16 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

She implies it, she is as much Natah as she is Margulis, we must use our understanding of the lore given up to this point. Given her body is that of a sentient we do not know if both can coexist as separate beings or as an amalgam of the two which seems more likely, and thus she is Lotus. Part Margulis and Natah.

If Octavia's Anthemn is anything to consider then probably not. Hunhow literally almost took over Cephalon Suda entirely. He even captured Ordis. I think it's safe to assume the conscious of sentients take over the conscious of other beings.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (XB1)AntiCaesar

[CuChulainnWD]

Just now, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

I think to transfer to something, the new body has to be willing, or at the very least not being conscious more as aware of stuff going on and can truly understand what's happening. That's why the Unum can transfer to creatures in the plains maybe also need a natural Oro. And the infestation doesn't consume the Oro of victims, thus allowing us to transfer to warframes. Who really knows?

Well we know that Natah was sent to infiltrate the Orokin empire. She takes on the persona of Margulis. I see a connection where Natah may have infiltrated the Warframe/Transference project, saw Margulis love for the Tenno, and given she can not have children of her own, saw an opportunity to have it. I think Natah may have been a willing participant if transference was on the cards. It seems likely, all of the means motive and evidence points to it.

[SilentMobius]

3 hours ago, (XB1)OTF SERENiTY said:

The role of the lotus is fulfilled by two entities being Margulis (the physical form), and Natah (The sentient, mental aspect). It has been unofficially accepted that Natah took over Margulis’ body in the form of the helmet she wears, so that she can appeal to the children while being in 100% control. 

This is pure speculation and it hasn't been "accepted" (Whatever that means). It's just one possibility in a sea of them, given how few facts were have on the topic.

[CuChulainnWD]

2 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

This is pure speculation and it hasn't been "accepted" (Whatever that means). It's just one possibility in a sea of them, given how few facts were have on the topic.

Agreed. As I understood it, the light execution destroyed Margulis' body completely.

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

2 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Well we know that Natah was sent to infiltrate the Orokin empire. She takes on the persona of Margulis. I see a connection where Natah may have infiltrated the Warframe/Transference project, saw Margulis love for the Tenno, and given she can not have children of her own, saw an opportunity to have it. I think Natah may have been a willing participant if transference was on the cards. It seems likely, all of the means motive and evidence points to it.

If that happened, when was the transfer? Presumably before her death, but if it was, she couldn't have been executed truly as her consciousness would presumably be stuck, and she couldn't transfer from her body to Natah's and so forth for the execution, and you know being killed. Unless the consciousnesses just switched bodies, but that's unlikely due to our knowledge of the warframes.

[CuChulainnWD]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

If Octavia's Anthemn is anything to consider then probably not. Hunhow literally almost took over Cephalon Suda entirely. He even captured Ordis. I think it's safe to assume the conscious of sentients take over the conscious of other beings.

Cephalons were also altered human minds prior to extraction/transference into being a digital intelligence. Sentients and Cephalons are not the same thing.  Natah found compassion for the Tenno. It is still plausible that she took to Margulis prior to her execution and they agreed to a sharing of mind and body.

[(XBOX)Kavriel]

1 minute ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Agreed. As I understood it, the light execution destroyed Margulis' body completely.

But Sentients can rebuild themselves, if the terralyst lore is any evidence.

So you have Orokin, who can use transferrence to attain new bodies, and then you have sentients, who can rebuild themselves and evolve. Merge them and you get the Lotus, and a hive of children in her image.

[CuChulainnWD]

1 minute ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

If that happened, when was the transfer? Presumably before her death, but if it was, she couldn't have been executed truly as her consciousness would presumably be stuck, and she couldn't transfer from her body to Natah's and so forth for the execution, and you know being killed. Unless the consciousnesses just switched bodies, but that's unlikely due to our knowledge of the warframes.

We don't know. Agreed it could have been before her death. Her consciousness would be stored in a device probably like a cephalon until transference can be complete. Heck we don't know exactly how transference works precisely. We are all speculating but it seems most likely. The details of all of this will hopefully be revealed in the Sacrifice.

[CuChulainnWD]

Just now, (XB1)Kavriel said:

But Sentients can rebuild themselves, if the terralyst lore is any evidence.

So you have Orokin, who can use transferrence to attain new bodies, and then you have sentients, who can rebuild themselves and evolve. Merge them and you get the Lotus, and a hive of children in her image.

Margulis was a human. Natah was the sentient. It is possible Natah altered her form to resemble that of Margulis after Margulis' execution.  Natah being a sentient that crossed the void is unable to procreate which was her sacrifice. I am speculating that because of that, she found solace in the Tenno, she could take up Margulis' mantle, become her, she may have had transference of Margulis into her to complete her own transformation. It makes sense to me. We will see when the quest is released.

[(XBOX)Kavriel]

Also, if Lotus is Natah using Margulis form, it likely wouldn't have been difficult for her to retrieve it from ashes. Think about how she has you capture targets for interrogation; chase them down, kill them, disintegrate. She can probably reassemble them in her own simulacrum like Simaris, or simply absorb their knowledge as she might have done to Margulis, as she seems to have done to the Tenno as we cant remember anything ourselves.

[CuChulainnWD]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Kavriel said:

Also, if Lotus is Natah using Margulis form, it likely wouldn't have been difficult for her to retrieve it from ashes. Think about how she has you capture targets for interrogation; chase them down, kill them, disintegrate. She can probably reassemble them in her own simulacrum like Simaris, or simply absorb their knowledge as she might have done to Margulis, as she seems to have done to the Tenno as we cant remember anything ourselves.

That might be a stretch too far. I get the impression that the Orokin death by light is pretty thorough. If what I suspect is true then Natah and Margulis had an agreement prior to execution. Natah could have taken all of the scans etc necessary to replicate Margulis' body in sentient form.

[(XBOX)Kavriel]

3 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

That might be a stretch too far. I get the impression that the Orokin death by light is pretty thorough. If what I suspect is true then Natah and Margulis had an agreement prior to execution. Natah could have taken all of the scans etc necessary to replicate Margulis' body in sentient form.

So far I think that is the most likely theory. Still, I think there could be more to that Jade Light.

I'm also getting a mental image of Natah in full sentient form curled up inside the moon, with plant-like tendrils spanning out into all the tenno pods, feeding off their energy and their dreams and directing their thoughts through the ashes of Margulis to allow her an army of nearly immortal and yet disposable golems should the orokin or the sentients ever return. The spider in her web, complete with all her children.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (XB1)Kavriel

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

Cephalons were also altered human minds prior to extraction/transference into being a digital intelligence. Sentients and Cephalons are not the same thing.  Natah found compassion for the Tenno. It is still plausible that she took to Margulis prior to her execution and they agreed to a sharing of mind and body.

Possible, but purple lotus flowers can mean rebirth. Transference isn't the most rebirth type of thing.

Anyway, Margulis was executed before Natah came in, at least I think. See, if warframes were created after Margulis was executed, and Natah came in near the end of the war, they couldn't talk to each other. Ballas couldn't plan to put Margulis' mind into conscious limbo and wait for a sentient to come along and bam. She was supposed to be a sleeper agent. She couldn't go up to Ballas or something and say, "Hey I'm a sentient and I love the Tenno, and I know about your dead lover so can you put her mind into me?"

[CuChulainnWD]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)AntiCaesar said:

Possible, but purple lotus flowers can mean rebirth. Transference isn't the most rebirth type of thing.

Anyway, Margulis was executed before Natah came in, at least I think. See, if warframes were created after Margulis was executed, and Natah came in near the end of the war, they couldn't talk to each other. Ballas couldn't plan to put Margulis' mind into conscious limbo and wait for a sentient to come along and bam. She was supposed to be a sleeper agent. She couldn't go up to Ballas or something and say, "Hey I'm a sentient and I love the Tenno, and I know about your dead lover so can you put her mind into me?"

We are not sure when Natah was sent in to infiltrate the Orokin Empire. That has not been revealed precisely in the lore. The warframes were being developed around the time of Margulis' execution. I get the impression that their implementation was not soon after her death. In order for Natah to want to become Margulis, she must have seen her in action with the Tenno prior to her death.

We know that Ballas had a hand in the sentient creation. We don't know for certain if he would be able to identify one if it was acting as a spy. Hence I said it is speculation. Ballas does have the means and motive to save Margulis from complete death. Her body would be destroyed but her mind could be saved. He is selfish in that he manipulated the Orokin counsel to get the sentient program running. Maybe he had a long game plan? I think he had a hand in the Orokin empires destruction. I think he did not completely object to Margluis' execution knowing he could save her with transference. Yes again it is all speculation. But he has the means and motive to do it.

I am pretty sure there is a connection between Margulis, Natah and Ballas. To what degree, who motivated what and by who we will see

Edited June 9, 2018 by CuChulainnWD

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

18 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

We are not sure when Natah was sent in to infiltrate the Orokin Empire. That has not been revealed precisely in the lore. The warframes were being developed around the time of Margulis' execution. I get the impression that their implementation was not soon after her death. In order for Natah to want to become Margulis, she must have seen her in action with the Tenno prior to her death.

We know that Ballas had a hand in the sentient creation. We don't know for certain if he would be able to identify one if it was acting as a spy. Hence I said it is speculation. Ballas does have the means and motive to save Margulis from complete death. Her body would be destroyed but her mind could be saved. He is selfish in that he manipulated the Orokin counsel to get the sentient program running. Maybe he had a long game plan? I think he had a hand in the Orokin empires destruction. I think he did not completely object to Margluis' execution knowing he could save her with transference. Yes again it is all speculation. But he has the means and motive to do it.

I am pretty sure there is a connection between Margulis, Natah and Ballas. To what degree, who motivated what and by who we will see

You think we would know more about non Tenno who transferred into something. But we only know of Silvana, someone doing it in secret. And it never said the Orokin knew she transferred herself into the grove. So the Orokin may have never known non Tenno can use transference, at least to an extent.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (XB1)AntiCaesar

[CuChulainnWD]

No argument there. I agree.

[Nyx219]

Folks have missed a possibility.

 

What if Margulis' execution was like what was done to Ordis -- something worse than death? As in, what if someone knew about Natah's mission to destroy the Tenno, and council saw an opportunity to torture Margulis by making her an unwilling witness to the extinction of them through Natah?

 

Came to me as an idea by way of Stargate's Goa'uld being notorious for suppressing the host after taking over. The hosts have to endure being a silent witness to whatever the snakes do, so...maybe something similar was planned for Margulis, but Natah not actually being on board with it threw them a curve ball and worked with her to thwart that plan akin to a Tok'ra & host working together symbiotically.

 

Personally, I think this might have merit. Maybe Margulis never surfaces because she really can't take over for some reason, like it's physically impossible to do anything but be your host's mind company?

[Poisonnic]

Reading through this I see some serious timeline issues with some of the hypothetical Margulis situations being thrown around in this thread.

 

First is the timeline of the Zariman Ten-Zero accident. We know that this Void Jump accident occurred before the solar rails, its accident was what prompted the development of the Sentients, their whole purpose was to travel to Tau system and build a Solar Rail, thus avoiding a repeat of the Zariman incident. So, Tenno creation first, Sentients later.

 

Second is the timeline of Margulis and the Warframe project. Yes, Margulis developed what would become transference but she had no part or knowledge of the Warframe project, that was Ballas' own idea probably sparked by the lab incident from the Rhino Prime codex entry. Margulis herself was executed before then for trying to oppose the Council of Executors on the treatment of the Tenno and we know from the Detron Crewman synthesis that the council's execution of choice is complete disintegration, something Ballas saw to personally in Margulis' case.

"They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore." - Detron Crewman Synthesis

"Seven hands raised! For your apostasy, the judgement is... death. Margulis, why?" - Ballas, Second Dream

This we gather from his speech to Margulis during the Second Dream quest. How long between her execution and the Sentient-Orokin conflict isn't clear but considering that the Tenno were stored in apparent cold storage would indicate they had been kept around for a while before the Warframe project started involving them at the very least. (1)

"I crawl up the wall to stand, opposite the door. I've never seen this cell, a cold place with an array of shelves." - Rhino Prime Codex

"...it's about the other rejects we consigned to Lua a few years ago. They're calling it... Transference." - Second Dream

 

Third is when Natah became involved with the Tenno. Natah was part of the group of Sentients who crossed the Void from the Tau System to the Origin System, daughter of Hunhow and specifically tasked with destroying the Tenno from within. This means that the Sentients had to have both already encountered the Tenno in combat and realised that their Void powered abilities made them uniquely dangerous to the Sentients. From this we can clarify that Natah likely never had any contact with Margulis who was almost certainly dead for some time now. However, like any good infiltrator Natah would have to use available information to manipulate and control her targets. Records of Margulis would be of particular interest as both Ballas and the Tenno would be particularly vulnerable to manipulation based on a masquerade or imitation of Margulis. (2)

 

Use this information as you wish.

 

As an aside:

(1) My presumption as to why the Orokin kept the Tenno around despite despising them is that to Ballas, they were all he had left of Margulis however much he may have loathed them.

(2) I personally think Natah is a much more interesting character than Margulis. Natah, the Tenno and Neewa, The Glast Gambit Triuna, are all in a position to be able to empathise with each other. All three had a role forced upon them by others of their respective societies which would have permanent and terrible effects on them. Both Natah and the Tenno cast off the role that they were given at the expense of losing their connection to their respective societies. Neewa, if you allow her to make her own choice goes half way on this, she doesn't abandon her role but she chooses not to help perpetuate it into the future either. Margulis can't empathise with the Tenno, she can only have sympathy or pity for them as she hasn't been in that position of being forced into an undesirable role. (3)

Another aside, the Lotus has always looked out for the Tenno and put the Tenno first, even in the Natah quest. She may not always take the best course of action in a given scenario but she certainly is looking out for their interests. Besides, sometimes people end up saddled with secrets about themselves that they simply cannot share as it would endanger themselves and to blame Lotus for not revealing her every darkest secret to the amnesiac Tenno is grossly unfair. Though I would be more interested in learning more about Natah's relationship and history with the Tenno during the Old War.

 

(3) If the Lotus is revealed to somehow, miraculously, be Margulis I will be disappointed for this reason.

 

Edited my third aside for clarity.

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Poisonnic

[Oreades]

That very question has been on the tip of my brain for quite some time now. 

Followed up by the fact that based on what we know of Sentients that almost has to be the original Margulis. Because as we know Sentients are not just the sum of one component, true sentients are massive. The Eidolons are only fractured parts of a fallen Sentient. So if Ballas only stole the Margulis form then the Lotus should in theory have had no problem 3D printing a new Margulis body.

Which means either Ballas exerted near total control over the Lotus herself (who could in theory be as large as a space station) or Margulis was indeed Margulis. I mean we know that the Orokin cloned the Grineer so how hard would it have been for Ballas to have whipped up a copy of Margulis to feed to the green light which supposedly destroyed her completely. Then used the real Margulis to essentially create the Lotus by merging her with Natah. 

Which leads me to believe that the Sacrifice was Margulis essentially melding with Natah to form the Lotus and without Margulis, Natah will probably go back to being the "kill all Orokin" Sentient she was previously. 

Which has shifted my expectation of this Sacrifice from "The Lotus Sacrifices the Unum to prevent HunHow from becoming whole at the price of her never becoming whole again" to "Margulis sacrificing her individuality again to become Natahs conscience once more" 

Which very well might lead up to Natah essentially sending up a flare or waking up the other Sentients in the sector. Cause I think the big secret project is probably a Sentient Tileset if not the TAU system itself. 

[Koldraxon-732]

29 minutes ago, Oreades said:

[1: Eidolon is Eidolon.]

[2: Margulis = Margulis or clone?]

[2a: How did Lotus become Lotus?]

[3: What happens when Lotus is disconnected from Margulis?]

[3a: Vanguard of the Sentient Invasion.]

Spoiler

 

1: The Fallen Sentient of the Plains is called Eidolon, at least based on what I know. It would make sense that all fragments of a Sentient would have their name as a prefix unless the fragment is not unique to the Sentient. I am terrified of the prospect of Hunhow raising Eidolon from the dead, since Sentients are mechanical.

2: Margulis pre-execution was Margulis. Then she was executed. Whether they disintegrated her body or not is up/down for speculation but the idea that Ballas gave Margulis a clone and had a Tenno use Transference to bridge Margulis into her false body to stand before the Orokin and have her execution occur is very plausible I'd say.

2a: Perhaps Margulis (actual) went to Natah because Natah wanted to talk, and then the two decided to merge because Natah wanted to be a mother, not a murderer. Lotus was essentially born, and Natah had been 'killed' in the process. If Natah somehow still exists, she'd probably side with us due to wanting to be a mother, even if we already have/had Margulis and Lotus beforehand (meaning if Natah and Lotus both come to us at the end, Natah would be a sister-figure while Lotus, being the wiser, continued her motherhood).

3: I believe currently Natah does not exist anymore, since Margulis-Natah became Lotus and Lotus is the disembodied element. Her true Sentient self may ask us for help to fend off Hunhow soon since she is no longer protected by Margulis.

3a: Hunhow may already be doing this. If he hasn't raised Eidolon from the dead by now, this would be what he's doing. He's in the role of Sovereign (Reaper, Mass Effect 1). The other Sentients may be rebuilding beyond the outer rim as we speak, and could be preparing to converge on us right now, and are just waiting for Hunhow's call-to-arms signal.

 

 

[CuChulainnWD]

16 hours ago, A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n said:

You're making a whole lot of assumptions.

Thanks, if you read the thread you would realise I stated as much. Good job

[WRESinn]

Ok, so Natah was a super advanced AI then.  That's fine, but it leaves a question open.  How was she supposed to destroy the Tenno?  I mean, Hunhow was in charge of the sentients (the floaty enemies ones), so why did he leave taking out the Tenno in Natah's hand?  What exactly was she supposed to do?  More importantly, if she's an advanced machine then what IS her primary function?  The only thing that I can think of would be that Hunhow's primary function was to direct the weapons around to destroy targets which would leave Natah's purpose (if she's the helmet like people think) to act as a system wide map capable of following the movement and activity of people across the entire system.  If one functions as the navigator and the other functions as the general then it would be easier for both of them to do their jobs BUT again it doesn't explain what Natah was supposed to do in order to take out the Tenno.  It's not like she has a kill switch..... unless she does.  Are we the suicide squad?

[(XBOX)Kavriel]

It's possible her job was to infiltrate the Orokin, take command of the Tenno program through Margulis, and use them to destroy the Orokin from the inside out. Then when Hunhow ordered her to destroy her new playthings afterward she refused, seeing their power and that they revered her as the mother she could never be, and turned against him; trapping him and putting the tenno to sleep to keep them from finding the connection - or because she simply didn't know what to do next, being trapped in the Sol system and likely marked as a traitor by other sentients.