Map nuking. Is it really necessary? (minor rant inc)

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Are feedback threads in which some players try to force their preferred play-style on others really neccessary? 

Your freedom and happiness shouldn't limit other people's freedom and happiness.

That's actually an argument in favour of reducing the impact and/or availability of "nuking", since it does limit other people. Maintaining optimal accommodation in a public space is ultimately about compromise. It's impossible for there to be no limits on anyone. The goal therefore must to be to create a situation in which the largest number of people experience the fewest limits possible. A total free-for-all does not accomplish that.

 

[DjKaplis]

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

That's actually an argument in favour of reducing the impact and/or availability of "nuking", since it does limit other people. Maintaining optimal accommodation in a public space is ultimately about compromise. It's impossible for there to be no limits on anyone. The goal therefore must to be to create a situation in which the largest number of people experience the fewest limits possible. A total free-for-all does not accomplish that.

 

There  is a choice to use an ability or not use it. You are trying to remove the option entirely. It's the same as asking clothe's manufacturers to stop making yellow T-shirts because you hate yellow colour.

If you don't like someone using "nukes" aka killing many enemies too fast - ask him politely to stop.

[DreamsmithJane]

40 minutes ago, DjKaplis said:

You are trying to remove the option entirely.

Where did you read that? I said it's a balance. I'm no more in favour of completely stifling one side of it than I am the other.

[Gnohme]

The first time I encountered nuking someone was playing Equinox on a defense map. Now, it's a small map but this is part of the reason I don't think abilities like this have been thought through as well as others in the game - when you do have maps of certain sizes does it really make any sense to have abilities that literally cover the entire map? That's not a game that's the equivalent of using a bot to farm XP. Like I ran all the way to the little rooms that the enemies spawned in, and they were dying INSIDE of it. So there was literally no way for me to participate. It's not a problem I run into constantly but honestly at this point now that I have a lot of the gear I want, I don't care if they're getting me a reward quicker. It's boring, so I just leave. Maybe AOE abilities shouldn't penetrate walls? Idk. Why does anyone even want to do this? Just to farm? So we have end game buttons just because the game is too grindy?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Gnohme

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Il y a 1 heure, DjKaplis a dit :

There  is a choice to use an ability or not use it. You are trying to remove the option entirely. It's the same as asking clothe's manufacturers to stop making yellow T-shirts because you hate yellow colour.

If you don't like someone using "nukes" aka killing many enemies too fast - ask him politely to stop.

Actually they're just sharing their experience with an issue that has an impact on the game.
I don't think anyone would agree to have Nukers completely removed, those who do obviously aren't thinking globally, however we can all understand that Nuke indeed have a pretty significant and slightly negative impact on the game as they are used right now.

The example you gave out kinda avoids the main issue.
This isn't a white/black situation, but rather a situation in which one of the color that I "Don't like" is being wrongly managed by the manufacturer and thus created an inequality.
If the manufacturer in your situation is over-saturating his shelves with yellow of all sorts and brand while completely ignoring other colours then I could feel dissatisfied as a customer.
As a proud customer of this manufacturer's past product, I am inclined to offer my suggestion/criticism about his business managing issue.
In all fairness, to another customer who absolutely love the colour yellow it may seem like my suggestion are trying to destroy the "Yellow T-shirt" market, but in my eyes I am only suggesting for all markets to shine in a more proportional and meaningful way.

You can keep the nukes (Yellow T-shirt), but the excessive power spam(Over-saturation) has to go.
This goes not only for nukers, but all other "colored t-shirt" as well.

Side note : You don't ask that, you're just begging for salt and excessive nuking.

Edit : T-shirt analogy, what have you made me do.

Edited June 15, 2018 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[Wordse]

27 minutes ago, Gnohme said:

The first time I encountered nuking someone was playing Equinox on a defense map. Now, it's a small map but this is part of the reason I don't think abilities like this have been thought through as well as others in the game - when you do have maps of certain sizes does it really make any sense to have abilities that literally cover the entire map? That's not a game that's the equivalent of using a bot to farm XP. Like I ran all the way to the little rooms that the enemies spawned in, and they were dying INSIDE of it. So there was literally no way for me to participate. It's not a problem I run into constantly but honestly at this point now that I have a lot of the gear I want, I don't care if they're getting me a reward quicker. It's boring, so I just leave. Maybe AOE abilities shouldn't penetrate walls? Idk. Why does anyone even want to do this? Just to farm? So we have end game buttons just because the game is too grindy?

It fun to kill many enemies very fast makes your frame feel powerful.

[Daiwulf]

Not everyone in the team needs to deal damage and the end game mission show 25%total damage for everyone. There can be many roles in a team: aoe nuke (ember, equinox), single target nuke (chroma, tigris, opticor), single target dps(rifles), aoe dps (ignis), buff(octavia, volt), tank (inaros, rhino) objective protection(frost, limbo), CC (inaros, nova), healing (trinity), farm helper (nekros, companion, open lockers), ayatan hunter (loot radar), utility (terminals, rescue), energy (zenurik, trinity).

If I find a group where there is a nuker, I either follow him to help (becoming one or more of the above roles) or move away and start killing in other rooms. I never feel useless in a mission because I can adapt to almost any situation. If you can't, maybe the problem isn't the nuker, but yourself.

Also, generally nukers stick to certain farming nodes bacause of efficiency, so if you're finding one in every akkad run, try another node.

[DjKaplis]

8 hours ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Actually they're just sharing their experience with an issue that has an impact on the game.
I don't think anyone would agree to have Nukers completely removed, those who do obviously aren't thinking globally, however we can all understand that Nuke indeed have a pretty significant and slightly negative impact on the game as they are used right now.

The example you gave out kinda avoids the main issue.
This isn't a white/black situation, but rather a situation in which one of the color that I "Don't like" is being wrongly managed by the manufacturer and thus created an inequality.
If the manufacturer in your situation is over-saturating his shelves with yellow of all sorts and brand while completely ignoring other colours then I could feel dissatisfied as a customer.
As a proud customer of this manufacturer's past product, I am inclined to offer my suggestion/criticism about his business managing issue.
In all fairness, to another customer who absolutely love the colour yellow it may seem like my suggestion are trying to destroy the "Yellow T-shirt" market, but in my eyes I am only suggesting for all markets to shine in a more proportional and meaningful way.

You can keep the nukes (Yellow T-shirt), but the excessive power spam(Over-saturation) has to go.
This goes not only for nukers, but all other "colored t-shirt" as well.

Side note : You don't ask that, you're just begging for salt and excessive nuking.

Edit : T-shirt analogy, what have you made me do.

Lol, nice analogies 😄

And of course I agree that nuke spamming can be a problem. Sometimes.

On one side there is a situation where you would like to play the game with weapons and nukes aren't neccessary (normal missions, just having fun).

On other side there are defence missions or now sanctuary where you kind of need them (especially if you are grinding focus, 375k per day, you don't want to spend all your playtime only on those missions so getting most focus in shortest amount of time would make sense).

 

So in conclusion we definitely need map nuking in certain situations. The problem is how to prevent it from being used when it's not needed (like any other mission type - poe, mobile def, spy, survival, exterminate etc...). I don't think I have an answer right now as putting restrictions on people by game mechanics can not always be good. And overall in my approx 1200 hours playing i haven't noticed this to be as big of an issue as people sometimes make it. Maybe I was just lucky :)

[Gnohme]

On 2018-06-14 at 6:02 PM, Wordse said:

It fun to kill many enemies very fast makes your frame feel powerful.

Feeling powerful does not automatically equate with being fun. You could develop a game where the game is I press one button and the universe explodes - do I feel powerful now? I guess? Was it fun? Not really. 

 

Imo there should not be one single ability that makes an entire mission not fun for everyone involved. If the person standing there hitting 4 is truly having fun... I don't even know what they need video games for. I'd rather stare at a wall. 

Edited June 16, 2018 by Gnohme

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb Gnohme:

Feeling powerful does not automatically equate with being fun. You could develop a game where the game is I press one button and the universe explodes - do I feel powerful now? I guess? Was it fun? Not really. 

 

Imo there should not be one single ability that makes an entire mission not fun for everyone involved. If the person standing there hitting 4 is truly having fun... I don't even know what they need video games for. I'd rather stare at a wall. 

Well put.

You might just as well watch some Michael Bay movie while pressing 4 on your keyboard, then award yourself by blindly grabbing something from the fridge.

The whole "power fantasy" thing: What action game isn't a power fantasy?! Ikaruga is a "power fantasy", too, you're flying a spaceship shooting hordes of enemies... Yet "endgame" (trying to S++ rank every level) is pretty much the hardest poop ever. Go figure.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[sixmille]

The game I started playing back in 2014 didn't have these issues. We had no map nuke. Not a single one. We had the mighty penta to kill groups, but that was it. The RNG was more punishing on a lot of things. Some basic and mandatory mods were significantly more difficult to acquire. Yet we were playing the game and doing fine.

The "warframe is too grindy" argument is completely ridiculous. Warframe is an exception in the online gaming world, it's as grindy as you want it to be. You want the new warframe in less than a day even if you don't even need it at all? Better stay up all night. You're not in a hurry? You have 2-3 months before they release a new one. Most weapons and warframes need resources that can be acquired passively. The last time I had to do dedicated resources farming was months ago for some dojo stuff. In the same vein, you don't need to roll a riven 30 times in a day but if you want to the game won't stop you. However, don't blame DE or warframe for it. YOU are the one turning a pretty chill and casual experience into a grind hellhole. There is plenty of time between content releases so the urge to rush everything is on you. And I'm saying this as a 1500-ish hours player that is probably better at the game than 95% of the playerbase so yes I know what I'm talking about.

Playing nukers is not neccessary nor fun for the rest of your team. I've done it before, running mesa/saryn/equinox/banshee/volt/you-name-it in normal or endless missions, and racking up 90-95% of the total damage is really trivial. But I don't do it anymore, because I see that it's greatly frustrating for others. I've had people walking away from objectives in PoE because they couldn't kill a damn thing with me running mesa. Mesa is incredibly oppressive in PoE. I've had people completely ignoring the objectives in kuva survival and/or leaving early because there wasn't a single NPC left around the kuva towers. Of course nuking is damaging on the long run, far more than the alleged "excessive grind" when most weapons require 1 forma and 3 pieces of dirt you grabbed off the ground in less than 5 minutes, and when most frames can be farmed in a couple hours tops. New players get jaded, more experienced players get frustrated, and nobody but the nuker who took all the fun is satisfied, except the few weirdos here and there with a strong AFK fetish (but they're not really enjoying the game anymore so they don't matter).

Edited June 16, 2018 by sixmille

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

6 hours ago, Gnohme said:

Feeling powerful does not automatically equate with being fun. You could develop a game where the game is I press one button and the universe explodes - do I feel powerful now? I guess? Was it fun? Not really. 

This applies only to you. This is your subjective view on fun, and isn't the general consensus. What is fun to you, only applies to people like you, Yet many, many people liked old Saryn.(including several Devs who played her a lot) Doing one ability and seeing an immediate effect of multiple enemies makes the player feel the most powerful. The equivalent of pressing a button and dropping a nuke. Your argument is extremely closed minded when others think differently then you. 

Warframe is a horde shooter, and when it is too tedious, or too monotonous to kill anything, it starts to feel like Destiny (Dying game where every enemy is a bullet sponge). 

The counter argument to yours is more convincing, and actually sound. What happens when it takes countless abilities to kill one enemy? Do you feel powerful? Was it fun? Depends on the context. Do you feel powerful when you are hunting Eidolons, or killing a raid boss? Sure, you do feel powerful for killing a strong enemy. But for nameless common low level enemies? No. And that ruins the experience of warframe, when the general experience is gunning down thousands of enemies to go up a little in strength. Umbra mods are about to come out, and they are going to cost somewhere around 150,000 endo to max out. That's a breath taking amount of farming to max. Any enemy under level 50 (besides heavy gunners) can be insta-nuked on basically any frame with a minimal amount of effort involved. 

Nothing you, or arguments like yours add anything to Warframe. Nerfing players in lower end content? That's a sure fire way that nobody ever does low end content, and anyone who does, will be doing the mission alone. Buffing the average Joe enemy? Quick way to ruin the experience after everyone gets tired of Bullet Sponges.  Oh, but you say you want a challenge? There's a thing called a Solo/invite option where you can go into any mission you like, with whatever people you like, and fight whatever level enemies you like. 
So for people like you, who want enemies that are strong enough to survive a nuke, the option is already there for you. But for the rest of the players who just want to finish building their warframes, finish leveling their mods/weapons/etc your suggestions only detract from the game and the experience as a whole. -Oh Hey, that Endo farming wasn't nearly excruciating enough, let's make it worse and make it take longer by neutering your damage warframe. And fyi, nerfing is the definition of unfun. 

 

[Wordse]

7 hours ago, Gnohme said:

Feeling powerful does not automatically equate with being fun. You could develop a game where the game is I press one button and the universe explodes - do I feel powerful now? I guess? Was it fun? Not really. 

 

Imo there should not be one single ability that makes an entire mission not fun for everyone involved. If the person standing there hitting 4 is truly having fun... I don't even know what they need video games for. I'd rather stare at a wall. 

I suppose that might be true fro you but I play solo I don't really enjoy playing with people so feeling powerful in this game is a great thing. I also like getting materials and combining them to make new stuff it is a great thing. 

And while you'd stare at a wall I'd rather be building and modding my frame to make my 4 do a crazy big damage AoE to kill hundreds and see the numbers spread feels like my hard work is being rewarded its a great thing. Now for me having to play much more slowly and utilizing weapons and weaker abilities sounds like not such a great thing. That might work for you but different strokes for different folks. Listen I think the private game argument goes both ways which is why I play solo I don't try and mess up others games if I need to play with people I just suffer through it and play a frame I don't care about and don't do anything anyway I doubt I could but once I am done with people I go back to what I consider the fun part of the game. I think both groups could exist if people just stopped fighting and asked "hey you wanna play the same way?"

6 hours ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well pu t.

You might just as well watch some Michael Bay movie while pressing 4 on your keyboard, then award yourself by blindly grabbing something from the fridge.

The whole "power fantasy" thing: What action game isn't a power fantasy?! Ikaruga is a "power fantasy", too, you're flying a spaceship shooting hordes of enemies... Yet "endgame" (trying to S++ rank every level) is pretty much the hardest poop ever. Go figure.

That doesn't sound super engaging or rewarding and I love and work on films. My actions have zero impact on what is happening I don't understand the idea that because someone is not interested in a more mechanical diverse play session they want to do nothing its reductive chill with that we are all here to enjoy the game.

Some people like to trivialize content its just what they do I am currently working on a way to take difficulty out of fromsoftware games cause I don't like it doesn't mean its a bad game or poorly designed I am just not interested in that part of the experience so I am tailoring it to me makes me feel cool jaunting around darksouls nigh unkillable with no threat it rocks.

[Wordse]

1 hour ago, sixmille said:

The game I started playing back in 2014 didn't have these issues. We had no map nuke. Not a single one. We had the mighty penta to kill groups, but that was it. The RNG was more punishing on a lot of things. Some basic and mandatory mods were significantly more difficult to acquire. Yet we were playing the game and doing fine.

The "warframe is too grindy" argument is completely ridiculous. Warframe is an exception in the online gaming world, it's as grindy as you want it to be. You want the new warframe in less than a day even if you don't even need it at all? Better stay up all night. You're not in a hurry? You have 2-3 months before they release a new one. Most weapons and warframes need resources that can be acquired passively. The last time I had to do dedicated resources farming was months ago for some dojo stuff. In the same vein, you don't need to roll a riven 30 times in a day but if you want to the game won't stop you. However, don't blame DE or warframe for it. YOU are the one turning a pretty chill and casual experience into a grind hellhole. There is plenty of time between content releases so the urge to rush everything is on you. And I'm saying this as a 1500-ish hours player that is probably better at the game than 95% of the playerbase so yes I know what I'm talking about.

Playing nukers is not neccessary nor fun for the rest of your team. I've done it before, running mesa/saryn/equinox/banshee/volt/you-name-it in normal or endless missions, and racking up 90-95% of the total damage is really trivial. But I don't do it anymore, because I see that it's greatly frustrating for others. I've had people walking away from objectives in PoE because they couldn't kill a damn thing with me running mesa. Mesa is incredibly oppressive in PoE. I've had people completely ignoring the objectives in kuva survival and/or leaving early because there wasn't a single NPC left around the kuva towers. Of course nuking is damaging on the long run, far more than the alleged "excessive grind" when most weapons require 1 forma and 3 pieces of dirt you grabbed off the ground in less than 5 minutes, and when most frames can be farmed in a couple hours tops. New players get jaded, more experienced players get frustrated, and nobody but the nuker who took all the fun is satisfied, except the few weirdos here and there with a strong AFK fetish (but they're not really enjoying the game anymore so they don't matter).

Just wanted to say you can;t say if someone is enjoying the game or not. 

Also you might have a chill time and 1500 hours in it sounds like you are well aware of what to do but some people are interested in the getting things aspect of the game and doing that as fast as possible within the confines of life and other interest might make the game more grindy for others your experience is not everyone and so they find other ways to play

[sixmille]

il y a 35 minutes, Wordse a dit :

Just wanted to say you can;t say if someone is enjoying the game or not. 

Also you might have a chill time and 1500 hours in it sounds like you are well aware of what to do but some people are interested in the getting things aspect of the game and doing that as fast as possible within the confines of life and other interest might make the game more grindy for others your experience is not everyone and so they find other ways to play

Your life is what it is, it's of little interest to me, and it doesn't change that I brought facts when you tried to relativize them with irrelevant things. So I will reiterate for you: no matter what your life is, in the current ecosystem of online games, warframe is very, very generous with the "grind" to the point it's almost non-existent compared to other games. If you can't find a couple hours within 2 months to get a new warframe (and let's be honest, we didn't have a new warframe every 3 months in years now) you're ultra casual, it's not the game being grindy. That's fine, but it's not the game's fault and it's in no way an excuse to keep design element creating negativity and toxicity between players in the game.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

I use nuke abilities to maximize the focus points I earn for upgrading my player character. Nothing else. And it isn't fair to have older players having benefited from this and then nerf it to slow the progression of new players. If they're going to continue to nerf your "area control" skills then they need to increase the amount of focus you earn or decrease the amount of focus it requires to unlock your operator skills and waybound perks.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

50 minutes ago, sixmille said:

If you can't find a couple hours within 2 months to get a new warframe (and let's be honest, we didn't have a new warframe every 3 months in years now) you're ultra casual, it's not the game being grindy. That's fine, but it's not the game's fault and it's in no way an excuse to keep design element creating negativity and toxicity between players in the game.

You sound like an ultra casual to me if you don't realize how endlessly grind this game is. 

You're bad and faulty logic is no excuse to gimp half the player base and remove the power they earned. 

You know that any frame can trivialize any low rank mission? The people that spent time and energy and multiple forma on a frame? 

You and everyone else fail to realize Warframe is partly an MMO. People who use multiple forma's on a frame might as well be a higher level then people who don't. Cause they get access to much more powerful builds. With all the prime mods, corrupted mods in the game... takes over 1,000,000 endo and thats after you grinded all the mods out. 

You might be a causal and play the game casually, but you don't get to dictate if people are allowed to be powerful, when the entire game is based around that. Damage frames with nuking abilities become irrelevant if you take that away. Then in it's place CC frames take over, then after you nerf them, you have a shallow un fun game, where low level enemies are tedious to kill. 

Game probably has 1000s of mods, guns, and all the endo and exp to get them to level. 

[sixmille]

il y a 36 minutes, (PS4)UltraKardas a dit :

You sound like an ultra casual to me if you don't realize how endlessly grind this game is. 

You're bad and faulty logic is no excuse to gimp half the player base and remove the power they earned. 

You know that any frame can trivialize any low rank mission? The people that spent time and energy and multiple forma on a frame? 

You and everyone else fail to realize Warframe is partly an MMO. People who use multiple forma's on a frame might as well be a higher level then people who don't. Cause they get access to much more powerful builds. With all the prime mods, corrupted mods in the game... takes over 1,000,000 endo and thats after you grinded all the mods out. 

You might be a causal and play the game casually, but you don't get to dictate if people are allowed to be powerful, when the entire game is based around that. Damage frames with nuking abilities become irrelevant if you take that away. Then in it's place CC frames take over, then after you nerf them, you have a shallow un fun game, where low level enemies are tedious to kill. 

Game probably has 1000s of mods, guns, and all the endo and exp to get them to level. 

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've played real MMOs and i've yet to find anything that requires as much time to acquire in warframe. I have most of the stuff at MR 23 and never farmed like crazy. If there's something I don't feel like doing a given day then I don't do it, and it doesn't really alter my progression, because everything is acquired passively. I have hundreds of thousands of things people say they grind like polymer, and I never set a foot in ophelia to farm for it. People complain about how rare oxium is, and i have tens of thousands. Cryotic? Over 50k. And I only played for 1500h since 2014 with (sometimes long) breaks. In any other online games 1500h gets you one half-decent character. Maybe. If you've been lucky. I have all warframes and most weapons including dozens of stuff sitting at lvl 0 in my inventory because I don't feel like levelling them up. It's really trivial to be done with the collection here.

So I really don't see what your aimless rant that was an answer to my post is about. Warframe is really very light on the grind for an online game. There is no "hard earned" things, because nothing is hard to earn.

However if you think that all warframes can nuke the map every 3s like Mesa/saryn/volt/equinox then please show me how you do it with Nyx, Atlas, Loki, Vauban and others. I'd be very interested in knowing how you solve the energy consumption of all of the 100 energy ult that do a bit of damage too to keep spamming for over 10 minutes without an insane amount of consumables or harrow/trin to babysit you since there aren't enough energy drops to sustain some eg Frost nuking for more than 2-3 cast every minute or so in pretty much any mission.

Edited June 17, 2018 by sixmille

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

il y a une heure, (PS4)UltraKardas a dit :

You sound like an ultra casual to me if you don't realize how endlessly grind this game is.

Warframe has the most casual grind factor of all the games I've ever played so far...
It's so casual that the Dev have been trying to forcefully sink our resources into impossibly costly items.
Our inventories are so over-saturated with parts that Baro had to be created.

The game literally throws everything to you with minimal effort.
Exp zones? Check
Credit Zones? Check
Resource zones? Check
Free boosters? Check
Overload of ways to acquire new relics/prime parts? Check
Potatoes that used to be hard to get? 1-3 given out every week along with invasions and devstreams at level 0-10.
Endo? Here's a weekly ayatan + enemy drop + Mod melter

The only resource I'm inclined to say is "Grindy" is Kuva.
And that's a resource that affects a singular item that is already not needed.
( Sacrifice was literally level 30 and sortie enemies get melted by 4 corrosive projection, if anyone here justify needing a riven because he "Needs" to be more powerful to fight the content, he can kindly walk away. )

I'm personally inclined to say you've been spending WAY too much time nuking the map and getting bored of it if you think that warframe of all game is "endlessly grindy".
Emphasis on "Endlessly" because that's a word you'd use for something you think negatively of.
That is, unless you're just being really sarcastic and decided to use "Endless grind" on a "Grind game", in which case : Bad choice of word.

Edited June 17, 2018 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

The only resource I'm inclined to say is "Grindy" is Kuva.
And that's a resource that affects a singular item that is already not needed.
( Sacrifice was literally level 30 and sortie enemies get melted by 4 corrosive projection, if anyone here justify needing a riven because he "Needs" to be more powerful to fight the content, he can kindly walk away. )
 

You are being oblivious to many many things, Like only getting 1 prime part per key, (getting said keys) grinding up syndicate factions, (standing + needing certain parts to level up) endo (No resource booster for endo, despite being the most used recourse in the game, no real great farms other then a 25% chance in excavations) 

Let me list all the sources of Grind in the game for you then, since you seem oblivious. 

Nitain- Limited time item, random thought the day 3+ for saryn prime, Booben, Lenz, etc
Endo, used for every mod, requires 40,000 endo to max one primed mod/umbras, around 20,000 for serration, bite, heavy caliber, etc
forma and experience. Requiring mats and time to make forma, then actually re-leveling up said weapon/frame. Best farm at the moment is a 25% chance. 
5+ factions that require standing. 3 of your choice, from the main factions, then 2 from plains of eidolon, plus PvP potentially. (That PvP Syndana thou)

Arcanes from the eidolons, - making and leveling amps, farming focus lens and crafting them, and focus affinity, separate from exp - a large, large grind
mods, from everything to stance mods, and required mods like blood rush, to corrupted mods, Event aura mods, that are only obtainable trading, or being there for that mission. (Haven't seen aura mod events in awhile, looking to get my friend the corrosion

Mastery Rank to unlock actually good weapons, and have access to everything in the game, Mastery Rank 13+ to have access to most things. 422,000 affinity required. 6,000 affinity per warframe, 2,000 per weapon. Most items taking 24 hours to 3 days to make. 

Then there is joining or making a clan, and all the farming that went to unlock every lab weapon. Hema was extremely grind for any decently sized clan. 

Then their are other things like Chroma, and equinox, that take other warframe parts and more warframe parts from other bosses. 

You either haven't played very many games at all, or are just oblivious to everything wrong you just said.

Nice Try, thou. 

[Checht]

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Nitain- Limited time item, random thought the day 3+ for saryn prime, Booben, Lenz, etc

4 Nitain alerts per day. Assuming that you manage to catch only 1 Nitain per day, it takes less than 1 week to build the next item you want.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Endo, used for every mod, requires 40,000 endo to max one primed mod/umbras, around 20,000 for serration, bite, heavy caliber, etc

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

Endo? Here's a weekly ayatan + enemy drop + Mod melter

This^

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Requiring mats and time to make forma, then actually re-leveling up said weapon/frame.

The only material that's possible to run low for Forma is only the Orokin Cell, and you only need 1 per Forma. It's easy to get 5 or more Orokin Cells within an hour. That's if you manage to run low on Orokin Cell to begin with. Personally, I have never really run low on Oroking Cell just with normal gameplay, have 190+ now.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

then actually re-leveling up said weapon/frame

Even without nuking and cheesing, it doesn't take more than an hour to max level a weapon, 2 hours tops.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

5+ factions that require standing. 3 of your choice, from the main factions, then 2 from plains of eidolon, plus PvP potentially.

Other than Ostron and Conclave. The remaining factions do not really need active grind for standing. You'll max out the daily standing limit easily just via normal gameplay.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Arcanes from the eidolons, - making and leveling amps, farming focus lens and crafting them, and focus affinity, separate from exp - a large, large grind

Making and leveling amps wouldn't really take much more than 1 week. Focus lens are easy to come by too. Grinding for focus affinity after you've maxed out the useful focus nodes (e.g. Energizing Dash) is optional, nobody really uses Temporal Blast/Void Static etc anyway. To max some useful focus nodes, a couple of weeks is more than enough.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

mods, from everything to stance mods, and required mods like blood rush, to corrupted mods, Event aura mods, that are only obtainable trading, or being there for that mission.

For mods, trading is your friend. Can't really count on RNGesus to give you what you want. Most mods are at a reasonable price, within 100p. Earn some plats from syndicate mods or other duplicate rare mods that you got from RNGesus, buy those that you need.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Mastery Rank to unlock actually good weapons, and have access to everything in the game, Mastery Rank 13+ to have access to most things.

A couple of months of casual gameplay is more than enough to reach MR13+. If you grind hard, you can do that within one month.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Then there is joining or making a clan, and all the farming that went to unlock every lab weapon. Hema was extremely grind for any decently sized clan. 

That's why Warframe is only grindy if you make it to be. Unlocking every lab weapon is optional, many of them are just MR fodders. You could easily just decide to unlock a weapon when you actually want to use it.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Then their are other things like Chroma, and equinox, that take other warframe parts and more warframe parts from other bosses. 

Takes 1 day on average to obtain all the parts for 1 frame.

 

The point isn't that there's no grind in Warframe. It's that Warframe is much less grindy than most MMOs you see out there, where the grind is so bad that players are pushed to pay premium currency to bypass the grind.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Checht

[Wordse]

20 minutes ago, Checht said:

 

The only material that's possible to run low for Forma is only the Orokin Cell, and you only need 1 per Forma. It's easy to get 5 or more Orokin Cells within an hour. That's if you manage to run low on Orokin Cell to begin with. Personally, I have never really run low on Oroking Cell just with normal gameplay, have 190+ now.

Even without nuking and cheesing, it doesn't take more than an hour to max level a weapon, 2 hours tops.

Other than Ostron and Conclave. The remaining factions do not really need active grind for standing. You'll max out the daily standing limit easily just via normal gameplay.

For mods, trading is your friend. Can't really count on RNGesus to give you what you want. Most mods are at a reasonable price, within 100p. Earn some plats from syndicate mods or other duplicate rare mods that you got from RNGesus, buy those that you need.

A couple of months of casual gameplay is more than enough to reach MR13+. If you grind hard, you can do that within one month.

That's why Warframe is only grindy if you make it to be. Unlocking every lab weapon is optional, many of them are just MR fodders. You could easily just decide to unlock a weapon when you actually want to use it.

Takes 1 day on average to obtain all the parts for 1 frame.

Some snipping Mostly the stuff that is just true and cannot be argued against 

What is this definition normal game play? Because I imagine normal game play might not allow for the same length of time to get to play so things might take a lot longer to get.
Leveling up a weapon when your dropping and gaining affinity at a rate higher than a lower rank person might make it go much faster but I don't think that is every single players experience that is even if they survive the missions to keep that affinity and wasting time on scrubbed runs. 

And your advice of trading while accurate and wise does not remove the grind from getting the mods it still exist and is unpredictable cause drop rates are low. And before you can get that plat that you may have to spend money one to skip the grind :v you have to grind to get the rare mods and syndicate mods to sell for plat by grinding standing. 

1 Day on average - Still does not account for just bad RNG and failure it could just as easily be a long grind as a nothing grind 

Whats casual play to you? Cause in a few months of play I had just reached MR 7 and that was with focusing on trying to rank up lots of things I can only assume perfection or close to it on your end so you are likely not accounting for failure  but if nothing ever went wrong and no mission was ever failed and nothing else happened but 100% efficient grinding with zero error at all then yeah I can see it and even then I am not convinced that even with all these conceits that all does not end up in a grindy experience. 

Warfame is grindy if your unlucky or trying to get everything and max it and perfect it.

[Reaver_X]

tbh, the only time your really going to see mass nuking is in area's that are mostly use for grinding affinity or farming mods, your there to level up, not to challenge yourself. That being said, people generally want to get thru it as fast as possible so they can go use said weapon or frame in more challenging content where they will indeed need to do a bit more than stand in 1 place and press a button.

so who cares if they are killing the enemies with you being able to kill very few, it doesnt matter because your getting the XP anyway which is the primary reason your there. Nobody goes to hydron because they want an engaging challenge or "for fun"

Edited June 17, 2018 by Reaver_X

[Tenno_Cobra]

Main issue I have is the fact DE spent like the last two years slowly nerfing AOE press 4 to win frames and stuff like the Tonkor and Simulor only to say "Screw it" and release a new gamemode that enforces a new meta where the only viable frames to finish said mode are AOE nuke frames that kill everything even behind walls and out of sight... In effect screwing their own meta and pushing the fanbase back into these nuke frames.

 

 

[cghawk]

18 hours ago, Gnohme said:

Feeling powerful does not automatically equate with being fun. You could develop a game where the game is I press one button and the universe explodes - do I feel powerful now? I guess? Was it fun? Not really. 

 

Imo there should not be one single ability that makes an entire mission not fun for everyone involved. If the person standing there hitting 4 is truly having fun... I don't even know what they need video games for. I'd rather stare at a wall. 

it's akin to compstomping which is great fun, if you still don't get it look to dynasty warriors, popular game, difficulty 0, tetris is more difficult than dynasty warriors and yet it's allot of fun because being and feeling powerful and fun, simple as that ''well I might as well stare at a brick wall'' good for you, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean people in general don't like it.

nuking is necessary as long as there are so many enemies, you can fight up to 40 enemies at the same time, abilities and nuking become necessary then.

sure there shouldn't be 1 ability that can ''rob the fun'' like equinox 4th but what can you do about it? maps all have different sizes so unless they're making it so the aura scales with the map size this can't be prevented, also again different people different minds, if I'm in a mission just to get my weapons to max level I'll gladly afk if there's an equinox nuking the entire map constantly, just means I can get my weapons to max level quicker to play the more fun content